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1st message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 19:32
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Evening all,I’m looking for some help from those more knowledgable. I’m looking to see if I can recreate the diamonds at Newcastle for my layout - still swapping about with ideas - but Newcastle ticks quite a few boxes. After looking at EM, I think i’ve settled on 00-SF, to reduce the amount of work needed (ie rewheeling stock etc) but getting better track.  
Now I have the track plan from the Quail 1987 Book, by which time BR had done away with bay Platforms 1-3, but the rest of the layout was substantially complete. I’m working from that and this image Flickr image from New Castle Keep to try and replicate the trackwork, but I’ve a couple of queries.

Can anyone hazard a guess what what track centers I should be using, I don’t think it’s common 6ft throughout, but not sure that it’s 6ft/10ft spacing? Can anyone take a guess at what kind of Point work this work be (B6, B7, C7 etc) Although I appreciate a lot was probably bespoke for the location. 

 Also there are two interesting/unusual pieces of pointwork, that I don’t think I can replicate in Templot, can anyone give me any advice? On the above photograph (I cannot seem to add more than one photo to a post) there is the odd left hand point, overlapping a crossover on the main platform left of the DMU. Also on this image From Keith Long (Flickr) Just in front of the DMU is another odd pointwork where there is a diamond crossing as part of the frog? How do I go about recreating those ... indeed is it even possible, in Templot or reality?

I’ve had a good start the past couple of days (excuse the iPad photo, but the PC doesn’t currently have web access) but I think the whole layout is too long for what it was originally. I might have another go and try and lay the core lines out on top of a Google Earth photo.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 20:58
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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edit: egg on face dept. I have obviously got the wrong end of the station below.

Hi Richie,

There is a 1940 revision of the OS 25" map on the NLS web site. Templot can load these maps as background picture shapes at the correct scale for your model.



I don't know how that compares with your period. Possibly the track centres are still the same, and could be found by overlaying tracks. You could also determine the diamond sizes and angles.

Here is the link to paste into the screenshot URL box. It is a 25" County Series map:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/120934149#zoom=6&lat=7822&lon=7203&layers=BT

... indeed is it even possible, in Templot or reality?Yes. If can be done in standard-gauge UK-style track, it can be done in Templot. It might not be easy, especially in 00 instead of an exact scale gauge.

See also some photos in this topic on RMweb:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60308-newastle-central-station-bit-of-a-long-shot/#entry761669




regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 21:16
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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p.s. egg on face department.

Sorry that map was the wrong end of the station. :?

I will post some more shortly.

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 21:52
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks for that. I’ll need to look at both ends, so that map could yet be useful!!

How would this pointwork be replicated? I’ve tried posting the picture but the forum is just adding my screenshot from earlier each time, regardless of what image I select, so I’ve added as an attachment below - it’s only a standard jpg.

Richie
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Attachment: BD864A28-0F19-4543-9A73-700EBC25D671.jpeg (Downloaded 176 times)
 
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5th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 09:39
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from:
rodney_hills
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Richie,
There was some sicussion on this area's P & C work on the nonpublic MERG Forum recently.


Here are some of my contributions to that which might be of interest to you...

-----------------

1.

Yet another chunk of P & C work at Castle Jct, about 1900:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4075603935

the signal gantry would also be rather a challenge to model.

A note added by a viewer:
"This photograph shows Castle Junction at the east end of Newcastle Central before the 1904 Tynemouth electrification, and prior to the installation of the manganese steel switch and crossing work. 
Note the road from platform 1 to the High Level - this connection was removed in 1904 as it could have caused problems 
for electric sets starting from the platforms due to insufficient lengths of conductor rail being available."

Regards, Rodney


---------

2.
[quote=JudiR post_id=66371 time=1499337214 user_id=1150]
It is, of course, now wired but the layout was simplified somewhat beforehand.



Indeed

Fromg
http://www.railwayarchitecture.org.uk/Location/Newcastle/Newcastle%20Central%20Stati.comon/Newcastle%20Central%20Station.htm

  All done with off the shelf double slips and turnouts, not a diamond crossing in sight!

Regards, Rodney

--------

3.

Some of the piccys of Castle Jct predate the manganese steel era.
http://www.asminternational.org/web/hts/home/-/journal_content/56/10192/ASMHBA0001045/BOOK-ARTICLE
"THE ORIGINAL AUSTENITIC manganese steel, containing about 1.2% C and 12% Mn, was invented by Sir Robert Hadfield in 1882. 
Hadfield's steel was unique in that it combined high toughness and ductility with high work-hardening capacity and, usually, good resistance to wear. 
Consequently, it rapidly gained acceptance as a very useful engineering material. 
Hadfield's austenitic manganese steel is still used extensively, with minor modifications in composition and heat treatment, primarily in the fields 
of earthmoving, mining, quarrying, oil well drilling, steelmaking, railroading, dredging, lumbering, and in the manufacture of cement and clay products"......
"Another important use is in railway trackwork at frogs, switches, and crossings, where wheel impacts at intersections are especially severe."

Lots about Castle Jct renewal in Manganese steel in 1912 in the late Andrew Dow's magnus opus on railway track:
"The Railway: British Track Since 1804"
Search on:
newcastle manganese steel for railway trackwork
Yields
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kmBtBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=newcastle+manganese+steel+for+railway+trackwork&source=bl&ots=ReY4HfpwVh&sig=njnq8Sfn94jITB7TcmtbkpztgWk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWpovN7vbUAhXJCsAKHd6NDcQQ6AEIQTAE#v=onepage&q=newcastle%20manganese%20steel%20for%20railway%20trackwork&f=true

Sample page showing part of Castle Junction:[below, hopefully]
Regards, Rodney








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Attached Image (viewed 622 times):

image.jpeg
 
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6th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 11:50
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Rodney,
That’s very interesting, many thanks. A bit before my time period, but all useful background, and the diagram of the Diamonds is superb reference. Unfortunately the link to the railway architecture website is giving a 404 error, could you check and see if it works on the original forum please?

I’ve been playing around again this morning, and the curving platforms are causing me some hassles, but I’m coming to the line of thinking that I’m about 6ft short on length to be able to create it like for like. As a result, I think I’m going to have to adapt it a little. I’ll try and post my box file on here later this afternoon so opinions can be offered!

Cheers
Richie
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7th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:28
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Richie Kynaston wrote: I’ve been playing around again this morning, and the curving platforms are causing me some hassles, but I’m coming to the line of thinking that I’m about 6ft short on length to be able to create it like for like.Hi Richie,

In 4mm/ft scale you would need around 9000mm x 6000mm (30ft x 20ft) to cover the station area:



regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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The middle section of this video contains some fascinating cross-fade images of the diamonds over the years:



Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:52
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks, yes that confirms my thoughts that I’m just a bit short on space 20ft long is doable, 24ft at a push, but I was thinking I’m about 5-6ft short. That video is great and very well done. I found that a few days ago, fascinating to see how things have changed!

Richie
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10th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:56
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Welcome to Newcastle Lite.
Interesting video though.
Tony W.

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11th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 18:25
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Hi Richie,

I'm assuming you'll be using live frogs. Switching power to them will be quite an exercise. If you are using DCC you might be able to use "frog juicers".

Regards,
Andrew
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12th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 21:57
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser
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13th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 22:08
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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FraserSmith wrote: All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser

Hi Fraser,

Are we not allowed to discuss such things on Templot Club?

Regards,
Andrew

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14th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 22:46
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Andrew Barrowman wrote: FraserSmith wrote: All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser

Hi Fraser,

Are we not allowed to discuss such things on Templot Club?

Regards,
Andrew
Hi Andrew,

I can't see why we shouldn't discuss MERG matters/controllers and other items relevant to the control of trains/turnouts and signals. I will start a thread and see how we go.

Rob


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15th message | this message only posted: 22 Oct 2017 07:03
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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I wasn't complaining about discussions about bundles of wires etc but pointing out that there was another way of doing things that some might find very useful. I have the MERG DCC system and am very happy with it. To get such a system for only around £100 is quite remarkable. I will keep any other comments about MERG to the new topic that Rob has started.

Fraser
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16th message | this message only posted: 24 Oct 2017 09:33
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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Hi Richie

The link has a typo. It should be http://www.railwayarchitecture.org.uk/Location/Newcastle/Newcastle%20Central%20Station/Newcastle%20Central%20Station.htm.

Fraser

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17th message | this message only posted: 24 Oct 2017 09:50
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew

I only did a short reply above as I was just about to leave for a few days away with little access to the internet but I felt I needed to respond quickly to dispel the idea I was complaining about a topic change.

I realise now that I missed what was the main point I was trying to get over and that is MERG's CBUS system that can be used to cut down dramatically on wiring just as effectively on DC layouts as it can on DCC ones. I will follow Rob's lead and create another topic in the Off Tracks section where CBUS can be discussed separately to DCC.
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18th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 00:08
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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H my the loss of such beautiful track work 
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19th message | this message only posted: 19 Apr 2019 22:05
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Evening all,
Firstly apologies for having started the thread then gone to radio silence. 18 months further on, and a house move later, I am back on with this "design" project at least - will it reach reality? Well I'll decide once I have managed to recreate the track plan! There is something about Newcastle and the diamonds that has always appealed, so have decided to drop down a gauge to 2mm, using Code 40 track, which means I have got the space to get the station in, if I can make it all work.

The one thing for sure, is that if it does, I am going to be far more knowledgable about Templot!! I have also decided to push the timescale back, so its looking at the 1950s/1960s, so the maps that Martin pointed me to should be usable to replicate.

Fraser, I am not sure if your still on here (or will even read this) but if so, could you drop me a PM, as I'd like to have a chat with you about your MERG comment, as I am not sure quite how it is saving wiring, but would be interested to know more.

If anyone is interested, I'll keep posting as I move forward. First task to go an research how you pull the NLS maps into Templot! Edit: Found the thread showing how to.

Richie
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20th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 09:54
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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Hi Richie

I can't email you as your email address is hidden but you can email me if you click on my name in this message.

Fraser
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21st message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 11:34
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Thanks Fraser, email sent,

I had an hour or so last night and got one ofvthevNLS maps pulled into Templot so first challenge sorted!

I am hoping somebody may be able to give me some advice as to the best way to progress? I am concentrating on the castle keep end of the trackplan first. Is it best to lay the goods lines towards Manors (and Edinburgh) first, then added the platform roads in, then the High Level Bridge approaches and finally add the diamonds.

Or is it best to start with the bay platforms out to Manors and High Level Bridge, then add the diamonds and platforms? Any suggestions on the best way forward would be welcomed. I am conscious that the diamonds are a tricky area to get right, so thought asking how to get the foundations right is the best way to start.

Richie
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22nd message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 12:19
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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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I would get as many parallel through lines in plain track done first, regardless of the direction and then start to add the turnouts and diamonds, working along one track at a time. As there's quite a lot of track, I would switch to no timbering to reduce the clutter.

Others may work differently, but with the make diamond at the intersection option, it should be fairly straightforward.

Phil.
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23rd message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 12:26
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Richie Kynaston wrote:Or is it best to start with the bay platforms out to Manors and High Level Bridge, then add the diamonds and platforms? Any suggestions on the best way forward would be welcomed. I am conscious that the diamonds are a tricky area to get right, so thought asking how to get the foundations right is the best way to start.Hi Richie,

As Phil says, it is usually best to lay out the running lines first, and then insert pointwork into them as needed.

But with such an iconic junction, you may find that the running lines need a bit of tweaking in order to fit in all the diamonds. Doing it in 00-SF rather than exact-gauge does mean that all the crossings will be in slightly different places (a 00 diamond-crossing is shorter than the same angle diamond in P4).

There is a separate topic under way showing how to insert diamond-crossings within pointwork, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3405&forum_id=1

It is waiting for me to post the next instalment, which I must get back to soon. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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24th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 12:57
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Phil/Martin,
Thanks for the quick replies. I'll work on that basis, and post an update probably tomorrow.

Martin, just for reference, I've swapped to 2mm gauge so that I have enough room to get the whole station layout in. I had considered going 2FS, but the big 'put off' was the thought of having to rechassis a number of Pacifics! So I came back to handbuilt 2mm track with Code 40 rail, which I think will look just a good - it also means that Peco can be used in the fiddle yards for quickness!

I'll do have a look at the diamond-crossings thread and I am sure I will join those in eagerly awaiting your next instalment!

Richie
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25th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 22:21
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Chaps,
Just to confirm, I've imported the map which Templot did as a screenshot, rather than tiles.  Have I imported the right map?  Ive attached the background shapes file for the map im using.

Richie

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Attachment: Newcastle Background Map.bgs (Downloaded 23 times)
 
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26th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 22:30
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Well I've started replicating the diamonds at Newcastle using the map, I thought i'd post an update, and just see what people thing - am I heading in the right direction?

Hopefully people can see the trackwork on the image below, but if not I've attached the box file!


Richie

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Attachment: Newcastle 2mm.box (Downloaded 34 times)
 
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27th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 22:51
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richie,

We can't see the map from a BGS file only. You need to post also the SK81 file which is in the same background shapes folder. This contains the actual image data.

However, assuming you are using the 25"/mile map from the NLS, it is not available as a tiled map. So the only option is a screenshot map.

The available tiled maps are:

OpenStreetMap (modern)

NLS London 60"/mile maps from the 1890s

NLS GB 6"/mile old maps. These are useful for overall sizes, positions of structures, etc., but too small for detailed track planning.

Tiled maps are only available georeferenced, so you don't have any choice there.

The screenshot maps can be from the georeferenced slippy map, or from the individual original OS map sheets (NLS call them "Find by place" maps). The 25" individual maps cover a wider area of the country than the georeferenced version, and are often available for several different dates.

The downside is that they get awkward if your desired area covers multiple sheets, because they don't match along the sheet boundaries. That's because the map projection used pre-dates the invention of the OS grid in 1936. That also means that there are differences between the georeferenced version and the individual sheets -- lines which are dead straight in one can become gently curved in the other, or vice versa. It's caused by the curvature of the Earth.

cheers,

Martin.

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28th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2019 23:04
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richie,

Posts crossed. That's a screenshot georeferenced map.

Please post the SK81 file so that we can see it in Templot.

You have made good progress so far, although the triple diamond is going to be a challenge. Was the prototype like that -- they are unusual in running lines? Sometimes the OS surveyors get their rails a bit mixed up.

cheers,

Martin.


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