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                                       Newcastle Diamonds
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 20:32
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Evening all,I’m looking for some help from those more knowledgable. I’m looking to see if I can recreate the diamonds at Newcastle for my layout - still swapping about with ideas - but Newcastle ticks quite a few boxes. After looking at EM, I think i’ve settled on 00-SF, to reduce the amount of work needed (ie rewheeling stock etc) but getting better track.  
Now I have the track plan from the Quail 1987 Book, by which time BR had done away with bay Platforms 1-3, but the rest of the layout was substantially complete. I’m working from that and this image Flickr image from New Castle Keep to try and replicate the trackwork, but I’ve a couple of queries.

Can anyone hazard a guess what what track centers I should be using, I don’t think it’s common 6ft throughout, but not sure that it’s 6ft/10ft spacing? Can anyone take a guess at what kind of Point work this work be (B6, B7, C7 etc) Although I appreciate a lot was probably bespoke for the location. 

 Also there are two interesting/unusual pieces of pointwork, that I don’t think I can replicate in Templot, can anyone give me any advice? On the above photograph (I cannot seem to add more than one photo to a post) there is the odd left hand point, overlapping a crossover on the main platform left of the DMU. Also on this image From Keith Long (Flickr) Just in front of the DMU is another odd pointwork where there is a diamond crossing as part of the frog? How do I go about recreating those ... indeed is it even possible, in Templot or reality?

I’ve had a good start the past couple of days (excuse the iPad photo, but the PC doesn’t currently have web access) but I think the whole layout is too long for what it was originally. I might have another go and try and lay the core lines out on top of a Google Earth photo.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 21:58
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
edit: egg on face dept. I have obviously got the wrong end of the station below.

Hi Richie,

There is a 1940 revision of the OS 25" map on the NLS web site. Templot can load these maps as background picture shapes at the correct scale for your model.



I don't know how that compares with your period. Possibly the track centres are still the same, and could be found by overlaying tracks. You could also determine the diamond sizes and angles.

Here is the link to paste into the screenshot URL box. It is a 25" County Series map:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/120934149#zoom=6&lat=7822&lon=7203&layers=BT

... indeed is it even possible, in Templot or reality?Yes. If can be done in standard-gauge UK-style track, it can be done in Templot. It might not be easy, especially in 00 instead of an exact scale gauge.

See also some photos in this topic on RMweb:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60308-newastle-central-station-bit-of-a-long-shot/#entry761669




regards,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 22:16
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

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p.s. egg on face department.

Sorry that map was the wrong end of the station. :?

I will post some more shortly.

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 19 Oct 2017 22:52
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks for that. I’ll need to look at both ends, so that map could yet be useful!!

How would this pointwork be replicated? I’ve tried posting the picture but the forum is just adding my screenshot from earlier each time, regardless of what image I select, so I’ve added as an attachment below - it’s only a standard jpg.

Richie
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Attachment: BD864A28-0F19-4543-9A73-700EBC25D671.jpeg (Downloaded 21 times)
 
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5th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 10:39
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from:
rodney_hills
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Richie,
There was some sicussion on this area's P & C work on the nonpublic MERG Forum recently.


Here are some of my contributions to that which might be of interest to you...

-----------------

1.

Yet another chunk of P & C work at Castle Jct, about 1900:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4075603935

the signal gantry would also be rather a challenge to model.

A note added by a viewer:
"This photograph shows Castle Junction at the east end of Newcastle Central before the 1904 Tynemouth electrification, and prior to the installation of the manganese steel switch and crossing work. 
Note the road from platform 1 to the High Level - this connection was removed in 1904 as it could have caused problems 
for electric sets starting from the platforms due to insufficient lengths of conductor rail being available."

Regards, Rodney


---------

2.
[quote=JudiR post_id=66371 time=1499337214 user_id=1150]
It is, of course, now wired but the layout was simplified somewhat beforehand.



Indeed

Fromg
http://www.railwayarchitecture.org.uk/Location/Newcastle/Newcastle%20Central%20Stati.comon/Newcastle%20Central%20Station.htm

  All done with off the shelf double slips and turnouts, not a diamond crossing in sight!

Regards, Rodney

--------

3.

Some of the piccys of Castle Jct predate the manganese steel era.
http://www.asminternational.org/web/hts/home/-/journal_content/56/10192/ASMHBA0001045/BOOK-ARTICLE
"THE ORIGINAL AUSTENITIC manganese steel, containing about 1.2% C and 12% Mn, was invented by Sir Robert Hadfield in 1882. 
Hadfield's steel was unique in that it combined high toughness and ductility with high work-hardening capacity and, usually, good resistance to wear. 
Consequently, it rapidly gained acceptance as a very useful engineering material. 
Hadfield's austenitic manganese steel is still used extensively, with minor modifications in composition and heat treatment, primarily in the fields 
of earthmoving, mining, quarrying, oil well drilling, steelmaking, railroading, dredging, lumbering, and in the manufacture of cement and clay products"......
"Another important use is in railway trackwork at frogs, switches, and crossings, where wheel impacts at intersections are especially severe."

Lots about Castle Jct renewal in Manganese steel in 1912 in the late Andrew Dow's magnus opus on railway track:
"The Railway: British Track Since 1804"
Search on:
newcastle manganese steel for railway trackwork
Yields
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kmBtBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=newcastle+manganese+steel+for+railway+trackwork&source=bl&ots=ReY4HfpwVh&sig=njnq8Sfn94jITB7TcmtbkpztgWk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWpovN7vbUAhXJCsAKHd6NDcQQ6AEIQTAE#v=onepage&q=newcastle%20manganese%20steel%20for%20railway%20trackwork&f=true

Sample page showing part of Castle Junction:[below, hopefully]
Regards, Rodney








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image.jpeg
 
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6th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:50
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Rodney,
That’s very interesting, many thanks. A bit before my time period, but all useful background, and the diagram of the Diamonds is superb reference. Unfortunately the link to the railway architecture website is giving a 404 error, could you check and see if it works on the original forum please?

I’ve been playing around again this morning, and the curving platforms are causing me some hassles, but I’m coming to the line of thinking that I’m about 6ft short on length to be able to create it like for like. As a result, I think I’m going to have to adapt it a little. I’ll try and post my box file on here later this afternoon so opinions can be offered!

Cheers
Richie
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7th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 13:28
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Richie Kynaston wrote: I’ve been playing around again this morning, and the curving platforms are causing me some hassles, but I’m coming to the line of thinking that I’m about 6ft short on length to be able to create it like for like.Hi Richie,

In 4mm/ft scale you would need around 9000mm x 6000mm (30ft x 20ft) to cover the station area:



regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 13:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
The middle section of this video contains some fascinating cross-fade images of the diamonds over the years:



Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 13:52
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from:
Richie Kynaston
 

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks, yes that confirms my thoughts that I’m just a bit short on space 20ft long is doable, 24ft at a push, but I was thinking I’m about 5-6ft short. That video is great and very well done. I found that a few days ago, fascinating to see how things have changed!

Richie
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10th message | this message only posted: 20 Oct 2017 13:56
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Welcome to Newcastle Lite.
Interesting video though.
Tony W.

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11th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 19:25
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Hi Richie,

I'm assuming you'll be using live frogs. Switching power to them will be quite an exercise. If you are using DCC you might be able to use "frog juicers".

Regards,
Andrew
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12th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 22:57
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser
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13th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 23:08
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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FraserSmith wrote: All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser

Hi Fraser,

Are we not allowed to discuss such things on Templot Club?

Regards,
Andrew

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14th message | this message only posted: 21 Oct 2017 23:46
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from:
Rob Manchester
 

 

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Andrew Barrowman wrote: FraserSmith wrote: All this talk about bundles of cables and techy solutions to crossing switching. You need to join MERG (merg.org.uk) and get into CBUS and probably cut your wiring by 80% or so. With the crossings there are several servo drivers that can be located adjacent to the point and also switch a relay to change polarity so avoiding problems of interference. The system can be used equally well with DC and and DCC. It's not that complicated and the help available to members via their forum is as good as here system Templot.

Worth a look.

Fraser

Hi Fraser,

Are we not allowed to discuss such things on Templot Club?

Regards,
Andrew
Hi Andrew,

I can't see why we shouldn't discuss MERG matters/controllers and other items relevant to the control of trains/turnouts and signals. I will start a thread and see how we go.

Rob


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15th message | this message only posted: 22 Oct 2017 08:03
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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I wasn't complaining about discussions about bundles of wires etc but pointing out that there was another way of doing things that some might find very useful. I have the MERG DCC system and am very happy with it. To get such a system for only around £100 is quite remarkable. I will keep any other comments about MERG to the new topic that Rob has started.

Fraser
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16th message | this message only posted: 24 Oct 2017 10:33
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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Hi Richie

The link has a typo. It should be http://www.railwayarchitecture.org.uk/Location/Newcastle/Newcastle%20Central%20Station/Newcastle%20Central%20Station.htm.

Fraser

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17th message | this message only posted: 24 Oct 2017 10:50
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from:
FraserSmith
Dundee, United Kingdom



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Hi Andrew

I only did a short reply above as I was just about to leave for a few days away with little access to the internet but I felt I needed to respond quickly to dispel the idea I was complaining about a topic change.

I realise now that I missed what was the main point I was trying to get over and that is MERG's CBUS system that can be used to cut down dramatically on wiring just as effectively on DC layouts as it can on DCC ones. I will follow Rob's lead and create another topic in the Off Tracks section where CBUS can be discussed separately to DCC.
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18th message | this message only posted: 25 Oct 2017 01:08
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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H my the loss of such beautiful track work 
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