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                                       tandem aids
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 10 Dec 2017 20:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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For the next program update I have added 3 extra functions to help in creating tandem turnouts.

Now in update 217a.

These will make it a bit easier to align the inserted additional V-crossing:







I will make a bit of video showing these in use shortly.

The program update should be available in the next few days. There are still a few loose ends to finish first.

cheers,

Martin.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 10 Dec 2017 20:22
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from:
Alan Kettlewell
North Yorkshire, United Kingdom

 

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I'll look forward to this. I spent another whole day today getting to know this part of the process and still found it difficult to get aligned. So anything to make it easier would be great.

Cheers ... Alan
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3rd message | this message only posted: 11 Dec 2017 07:52
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Alan Kettlewell wrote: I'll look forward to this. I spent another whole day today getting to know this part of the process and still found it difficult to get aligned. So anything to make it easier would be great.Hi Alan,

A whole day? :(

I was trying to suggest that it would be worth waiting a few days until the next program update is available.

So many folks have been asking for an updated tandem video/tutorial that I have been trying to make it a bit easier to explain. There is no chance of having a one-click tandem like the new make slip functions, there are just too many variables and possible conflicts in a tandem turnout.

Anyway, here is a bit of video showing some new functions in 217a coming in the next few days. You can try following it before then, but for the new functions you will have to use manual work-arounds in 216b. It would probably be better to wait.

The reason for posting the video in advance is to avoid folks wasting time struggling with a tandem in the meantime.

Here's the video. It's scruffy, I have added some notes, but done no editing of mouse fumbles, gaps and judders:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=iYbIr74flWmgsI_8hlsXQQ2

I will get 217a released as soon as possible.  Now available.

cheers,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 11 Dec 2017 19:15
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Alan Kettlewell
North Yorkshire, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,

Well that looks good, and the on screen explanations are a real help.  Not counting the new features there were a few things different there to what I've been practising so a really useful update.
By the way when I said above I've been trying to get that part right for a whole day, I meant just trying to align the centre v section!  I've actually been toying with the tandem turnout for about a fortnight now but I can see now where I've been making errors.  For example, I had not grasped that the centre turnout needs to be the opposite hand to the turnout selected - nor did I know the curving had to be reversed!  A bit confused by that - is that not the same as having the same hand with the same curving not reversed?  I probably just need to think that through a bit.

Anyway, the new video is much appreciated and a big thank you for putting that together.

Looking forward to the new features.

Cheers ...Alan


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5th message | this message only posted: 11 Dec 2017 19:56
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Alan Kettlewell wrote:is that not the same as having the same hand with the same curving not reversed?Hi Alan,

er, no. If you want to use a middle crossing of the same hand as the turnout over which you are aligning it (why?), you would need to swap over the two radii (which would be tricky to do). The main road curving would still need to be negative. To align it you would need to put its peg on TCP, and use SHIFT+F9 to slide it into position. You would need to swap the peg to CTRL+44 (press CTRL+4 twice) before adjusting the crossing angle. Even then I'm not entirely sure it would work every time, if the gaunt curve is quite short. You can align anything using the peg and notch functions, but generally it is much better to perform translations along the main road.

So I won't be recommending that method. :)

If you really want the middle crossing to be a different hand, it would be better to start from the other base turnout, and make it the opposite of that.

regards,

Martin. 

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6th message | this message only posted: 11 Dec 2017 21:00
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from:
Alan Kettlewell
North Yorkshire, United Kingdom

 

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Sorry - it wasn't intended to be challenging - merely an indication of how little I yet understand of the geometry of these things.

I'll try to get my head around It some more in the morning.

Cheers ... Alan
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7th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 08:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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So IF IF update 217b contained something like this:



would beginners be able to cope?

It would require the 1st turnout to be already in the control template. That could be any sensible size with REA size switches A, B or C, curved or straight (but not on a transition curve), regular or curviform.

I'm just at the beginning of this and it may prove too problematic to automate. But is it a better use of my time than creating a tandem video using 217a?

regards,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 10:48
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Alan Kettlewell
North Yorkshire, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,

I can only speak for myself of course.  I found the scruff video you did already brought me on a lot in my understanding of what I was doing.  I found the comprehensive notes you display at each pause are great and helped me to grasp what was actually being done at each step. 


I think the above automated sequence, while it might speed things up, wouldn't 'teach' us newcomers as well as the video does.    

I've only ever laid proprietary trackwork from the likes of Peco, so I've previously never made an attempt to build any and never took to learning the geometry of these things.  Using your excellent program is a great way to aid with learning and of course produce some great prototypical trackwork.    
Many thanks for your time and effort with this program and for taking the time to help me with my learning curve.

Cheers ... Alan        

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9th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 11:44
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Godfrey Earnshaw
 

 

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Hi Martin,

I have said it before but I think your time would be better with the videos, they TEACH us the principles.

We don't need any more automation or we may as well have fixed geometry which is against all the concepts of Templot.

Explanations of functions would be useful, for we thick ones.

regards,

Godders.
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10th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 21:03
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from:
Richard Spratt
Stockton-upon-Tees, United Kingdom



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I agree with Godfrey, a couple of good videos showing the main types of tandem would be better than an outline tandem function.
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11th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 22:50
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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin.

I'm with the above, video tutorials are what helped me to get a grip of Templot, when I started, the old step by step written tutorials were a lot harder to grasp what was going, because you didn't know if you had really done the job properly. Seeing what was supposed to happen made it a lot easier to grasp. Once the beginner has grasped the basics from the videos, it's not a huge next step to producing your own custom templates and has been said before by me and others Templot is a steep learning curve and most seem to want to jump into tandem turnouts before they have even mastered plain track and ordinary left and right hand turnouts.

Cheers

Phil
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12th message | this message only posted: 17 Dec 2017 22:53
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Rob Manchester
 

 

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Hi Martin,

Many thanks for the effort so far on the Tandem issue. The dialogue you suggest for beginner tandems looks fine until the need for some working user knowledge creeps in. I can imagine the coding required would be immense to automate the whole thing.

I can see already from the other guys I am going to be out-voted on this but remember you haven't got the views of somebody who hasn't used Templot before.

I am fine with whatever you do as everything you code increases the functionality of the program.

If you go with the video route then make this video and others easily visible to new starters that way at least some will watch and learn from it. But having a few 'Peco replacement tandems' available for download would still be a good idea provided they are known to be correct in all important aspects.

Will be interested to see a new Tandem video.

Rob




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13th message | this message only posted: 18 Dec 2017 15:26
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roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Great stuff, I've been battling for a couple of weeks with a same-sided tandem for the Hythe MRC's Alkham layout, converting it from EM to 00 SF. The geometry doesn't quite fit as expected. Unfortunately nobody though to do a tracing of the original track which would have made life easier.

I'll have another go at the tandem tomorrow evening. tonight I'll be at the club trying the latest version of the printed track plan to see where it still needs tweaking.
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14th message | this message only posted: 18 Dec 2017 17:16
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Judi R
Sutton-on-Sea, United Kingdom



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I would like to add my voice to support a video on how to use the features in the current version. I did manage to create a symmetrical tandem (3-way) a couple of years ago by following the video that was available then and am very pleased with the result. I am modelling the Midland main line set in the 1960s so a Midland Railway style symmetrical would be entirely appropriate.

Having the videos to guide us through the steps has allowed me to learn to do more than just a tandem, it has helped me learn so much about many of Templot's features.

Judi R
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15th message | this message only posted: 18 Dec 2017 19:59
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madscientist
 

 

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I too would love a video covering the complete creation of a tandem using the latest templot versions

I'm struggling to design the tandem , and placing it into an existing track design

For example do I design all the approach roads first and then build the tandem , or vice versa
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16th message | this message only posted: 19 Dec 2017 09:41
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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: I too would love a video covering the complete creation of a tandem using the latest templot versions

I'm struggling to design the tandem , and placing it into an existing track design

For example do I design all the approach roads first and then build the tandem , or vice versa

Personally I start with the main route and then insert a turnout in it and it's other exit track, I then overlay the second turnout over the first and slide it backwards and forwards over the first one until I am happy that there will be no conflicts and that it will be easy enough to add the third common crossing, you may need to adjust the common crossing to help get a good fit, I then add the final exit road and continue with the layout design, once happy with that, I then go back and add the 3rd common crossing and sort out the check rails and timbering.

I used to start with the tandem and add the other bits afterwards and the find it didn't work properly with what I wanted to achieve. So i had wasted a lot of time on the twiddly bits only to find out that it didn't work out.

Phil

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17th message | this message only posted: 19 Dec 2017 10:03
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Alan Turner
Dudley, United Kingdom



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As Phil says but I never see the point of adding the third crossing. Its position is defined as is its angle - so easily built.
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18th message | this message only posted: 19 Dec 2017 15:11
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Ariels Girdle
 

 

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The position of the timbers is very important in relation to the crossing, as the chairs have to be in specific places, so well worth adding the third crossing - even if you don't bother adjusting anything else.
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19th message | this message only posted: 19 Dec 2017 15:40
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Ariels Girdle wrote: The position of the timbers is very important in relation to the crossing, as the chairs have to be in specific places, so well worth adding the third crossing - even if you don't bother adjusting anything else.Indeed.

Also the position of the check rails. It is important to see that the inserted V-crossing can be properly checked, and that all check and wing rail ends will be sufficiently clear of the running rails.

But Templot is a workshop tool for trackbuilders. Tools are used by skilled workers as they see fit in aid of their skills. If you can see or pencil in on the printed template exactly where everything needs to go, it is up to you whether to spend time creating a neat printed template.

regards,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 22 Dec 2017 13:58
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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I mentioned in the video that when setting the gaunt turnout radius for the additional crossing, you may see a very strange-looking template, perhaps something like this:



The reason being that the turnout radius and curving radius are of a similar size and direction.

As it stands, its usefulness must be in question. :)

However, you can see that the actual V-crossing area (boxed yellow) is fine, and providing you follow up with do > isolate V-crossing all will be well:



I have now added a note in the program about this if it happens.

Also, I have added menu options to be more convenient for single-sided tandems:



This will be in program update 217b shortly, with a few other minor changes.

cheers,

Martin.

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21st message | this message only posted: 4 Jan 2018 10:28
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madscientist
 

 

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Personally both the video and a tandem " wizard " is a great idea , but then I'm not doing the work !!
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