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                                       Rotate track and background shapes simultaneously
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 9 Jan 2018 09:42
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

I like to change the orientation of my trackwork, when modifying it, so that the track is horizontal rather than vertical. However, I would like my background shapes, such as; baseboard and room outlines to rotate with it (i.e. synchronized rotation). Just 90 degree steps would help.
Cheers

Godders

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2nd message | this message only posted: 12 Jan 2018 15:50
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Bump

I am feeling ignored and neglected.
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: I am feeling ignored and neglected.Sorry Godders.

I have been looking at your suggestion and wondering how to reply.

It's clearly a sensible idea. And on the face of it, it ought to be a simple thing to do.

In fact it isn't, because there isn't any way of rotating the background shapes as a combined entity. It will be a major programming task to implement this. It's something I really ought to make available, but at present I don't feel up to doing it. I'm trying to get the single-sided tandems finished for 218b. And after that I must, just must, spend my time on the Templot Companion. Because the present situation is becoming absurd. Look at this page:

  http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.php

and in tiny print at the bottom: "page last revised 27-May-2016"

That's more than 18 months, for something which should have been continued within a week. :(

So many thanks for the suggestion. All I can say at present is that I have added it to the list.

regards,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 12 Jan 2018 16:10
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Thank you Martin

Of course it's not urgent and is merely a nice to have.
I'm happy now and my last wish was to put pressure on you.

cheers

Godders
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5th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 13:13
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Godders,

I have been looking at this again, because it has been bugging me. :)

I have concluded that I can kludge this into the BGS file format if (big IF) rotation is restricted to 1.5 degree increments.

That would include of course all the common angles, 30/45/60/90/180 degrees etc., but not say 10 degrees. The nearest options would be 9 degrees, or 10.5 degrees.

Nor anything infinitely variable, such as say 14.38 degrees.

On the face of it that's a daft restriction and would make Templot look a bit silly.

On the other hand it is doable in the short term, and would be a lot better than nothing.

Whereas a full solution is a long-term project to replace the BGS file format with something much better, and rewrite the entire background shapes functions.

So I'm in two minds about this.

cheers,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 15:29
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Martin, it is a “nice to have”. For me personally 90 degree shifts are sufficient but I can see the nicety of lesser intervals.

The problem I see is not what you give us, it is the fact that the nearer “perfection” Templot gets the more critical or demanding we become.

Cheers

Godders
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7th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 17:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Thanks Godders.

At present we have the rotate all shapes function. Which is fine for lines and target marks.

But not for the solid shapes -- rectangles, picture shapes, etc., which rotate as if hanging from a Ferris Wheel.

To get round that there is already a kludge function to break rectangles into 4 lines before rotating, which loses any solid infill, hatching, etc.

It would be simple to fix that for rectangles for 90-degree rotations. But then we would have a completely different result for 90 degrees from the result for 89.99 degrees. Which looks far too much like a bug  for comfort. :)

And none of this is synchronised with rotating the background templates.

Nor is there a convenient function to shift everything back into the positive quadrant on the grid if rotation takes it into the negative quadrants.

I'm going to have a look at all this and see if I can find something more user-friendly.

The problem with Templot is that it has been built out of Meccano for nearly 40 years now. It is easy to bolt new bits on, but very difficult to change the underlying design.

cheers,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 17:12
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Amazing what you can still build out of Meccano.

Cheers

Godders
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9th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 19:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: For me personally 90 degree shifts are sufficientHi Godders,

Just to be clear, 90-degree rotations for all background shapes are already available. See on the modify all tab on the background shapes dialog:



acw = anticlockwise    cw = clockwise

What they are not, is integrated into the rotate all function, synchronised with rotating the background track templates, or working properly for picture shape image content.

So that's what I'm working on. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 20:10
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: Hi Martin

Amazing what you can still build out of Meccano.

Cheers

Godders

And you don't even need to buy the bits :D

http://www.virtualmec.com/

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11th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 20:18
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
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Hi Martin,
Yes, I need the synchronised action that turns both at the same time to make the view more convenient.

Cheers

Godders
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12th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 20:57
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote:And you don't even need to buy the bits :D

http://www.virtualmec.com/
Brilliant! :)

Version 2.1.4 wouldn't run on Windows10 or Windows7 for me (missing DLLs).

But 2.0.4 is fine.

Of course to be authentic, it should be running on Windows58. :)

Thanks for the link,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 21:05
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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p.s. I see that the nuts tighten themselves. No sign of the cranked spanner or the lethal screwdriver.

I was convinced Frank Hornby had shares in Elastoplast. :)

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 21:14
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Martin Wynne
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p.p.s. Andy,

Every issue of Meccano Magazine in PDF format:

 https://www.meccanoindex.co.uk/MMpdfs1.php

All your favourite issues are there. You'll be back in short trousers for several hours. :)

Martin.
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15th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 22:36
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi,

Sometimes Meccano can be almost a lifesaver ( medical illustrations included ) :-

Meccano

Rob

P.S. The link to the Meccano mags is great. The ads are memory testers - all the old names such as ERG in Bournemouth and Hannants ( plastic models these days ). I remember ordering stamps on approval a few times and the advert for the home printing press always intruiged. You can't beat a chemistry set and a Bayco housebuilder set.



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16th message | this message only posted: 11 Feb 2018 22:47
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Yep, now hooked on Meccano Mags! Tried the December 1938 issue and, apart from being astonished at the amount of stuff in it (think the post-war ones I knew were thinner), found a very useful description of the workings of Walschearts valve gear.

Nigel
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17th message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2018 00:19
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Andrew Barrowman
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I still have my Bayco my brother's Bayco building set. There was also a Prestacon construction set, but it didn't last very long. It was a bit like Meccano but even more dangerous :D

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Rob Manchester
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Andy,

My first few Meccano set were the plastic variety. Can't remember how old I was but my dad didn't like the idea of the proper version - too dangerous.

What I want to know is where did all my Scalextric go to ? It seemed I got a new set each Christmas but I never had anything left from the previous sets - odd. My parents never got my the James Bond set for me but at least I had a Corgi Aston Matin James bond car......

Rob


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19th message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2018 09:30
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Charles Orr
Leicester, United Kingdom

 

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This is very nostalgic.

I had Bayko, remember those green bases with a grid of holes that the houses were built on using metal rods?

Those metal rods were later utlised in building my first ever model railway.  They were very useful for all sorts of things.

Also Meccano (spent hours lusting after the very expensive set 10 in a wooden box), a Lotts chemistry set, (ended up with a damaged kitchen table  :? and a degree in chemistry :D) and a Brickplayer set. 

Remember those?   Real miniature bricks stuck together with flour and water, and built on proper architects' plans.  I think these were more 0 scale than 00.


Charles

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20th message | this message only posted: 10 Mar 2018 17:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: I like to change the orientation of my trackwork, when modifying it, so that the track is horizontal rather than vertical. However, I would like my background shapes, such as; baseboard and room outlines to rotate with it (i.e. synchronized rotation).Hi Godders,

It has dun me head in, but this is now at long last available in Templot update 219a. :)

There are some ifs and buts, and it will be important to read the dialogs which come up.

Start from the group > rotate group functions. It works for any angle, but if there are picture shapes (e.g. maps), rotations for other than for multiples of 90 degrees will get messy if they overlap.

And if there are picture shapes it is extremely  s l o w . . . , Templot isn't a graphics editor.

The price to be paid for this is that all rectangles are broken into 4 separate lines before rotation. It is just not possible to avoid this within the existing BGS format.

Rotation takes place around the current position of the notch, which can therefore be set to a suitable location before doing the rotate.

Also works for the group > shift group functions. There is also a new function to shift everything back into the positive quadrant if shifts and rotations have shifted all or part of it into the negative quadrants.

It is important that the templates remain exactly aligned over maps after shifts and rotations. Please let me know if you find any discrepancies. It should be spot-on for 90-degree rotations at least.

I have tried to test all this as much as I can, but it won't surprise me if some bugs come to light.

cheers,

Martin.
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21st message | this message only posted: 10 Mar 2018 23:11
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Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,
I have just got in. Having received the topic update I have tested the facility and that will do me.
I would have preferred a single action but I am quite satisfied with what you have kindly provided.

Thank you very much

Godders
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22nd message | this message only posted: 10 Mar 2018 23:14
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Godders,

Please can you explain what you mean by a single action?

Thanks,

Martin.

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23rd message | this message only posted: 10 Mar 2018 23:27
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Godfrey Earnshaw
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Hi Martin,
I can but in fact what I thought was happening was not quite correct.


I thought I was making two actions;

one to rotate the templates, which rotate immediately
two to select to rotate the shapes, which do not move until the screen is updated either by movement or zoom action.

So it works but only if you update the screen.


Hope that is clear.

Cheers

Godders
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24th message | this message only posted: 10 Mar 2018 23:49
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote:So it works but only if you update the screen.

Hope that is clear.
Hi Godders,

Sorry no, it's not clear.

I will make a bit of video -- you may be reporting a bug. :(

cheers,

Martin.

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25th message | this message only posted: 11 Mar 2018 00:04
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Godfrey Earnshaw
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Hi Martin,

Nothing selected

Group>rotate group 180 degrees (example, I tried other rotations also)

"There are no stored Templates currently selected for group operations"

group select all - selected - group immediately rotates 180 degrees

Immediately new popup window - "rotate background shape in sync?" - selected - yes please - rotate shapes - popup closes - nothing happens.

Move trackpad or zoom - shapes rotate

Hope that is a bit clearer.

Cheers Godders
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26th message | this message only posted: 11 Mar 2018 00:42
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Rob Manchester
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Martin,

I see what Godders is reporting here. When you do a group rotate the background shapes are not redrawn in the new rotated position straight away, they just stay where they were. Zooming, panning or even moving the control template causes the shapes to appear in the correct rotated position.

Rob


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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote:Move trackpad or zoom - shapes rotateDamn. That's a bug. It was working this morning. I have spent a solid week on this, it has driven me mad. :(

The background shapes were never designed to be linked to the templates, that was the whole idea. So that you could have the same baseboard, same railway room, same garden, and design different track plans for it. That's why they are saved in separate files.

219b will be released in an hour or two.

Sorry.

Martin.

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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
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Martin, there is no need to apologise. In my book that is software development. It works but just not how you intended.I could live with it. Believe me your efforts are really appreciated, I don't think any of us would think differently.

appreciate everything

Cheers

Godders
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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p.s. it does actually work as intended IF you have at least one picture shape.

Also the shift group functions are working.

cheers,

Martin.

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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219b now on the server.

Please let me know if it is not fixed.

Apologies for the inconvenience.

cheers,

Martin.

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31st message | this message only posted: 11 Mar 2018 08:44
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
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Good Morning Martin, that is exactly what I want.

Thank you so much, works like a dream and is incredibly quick.

Again please do not apologise.

You should be very proud of your abilities.

All the best and Thank you again.

Godders

PS are you working on the AI version yet. This is where we, the punters, think of our dream layout and your software figures it out, draws the layout, builds all the baseboards and track and then runs the train to a timetable

You spoil us.
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Godfrey Earnshaw
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Hi Martin,

Supplementary question.

Is it me or has the last used template been changed to a heavier outline colour.

I don't remember it before the changes to the rotation was implemented.

Merely an observation or maybe lack off.

Cheers

Godders
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Martin Wynne
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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: Is it me or has the last used template been changed to a heavier outline colour.

I don't remember it before the changes to the rotation was implemented.
Hi Godders,

See discussion here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3197&forum_id=1&page=3#p24132

Yes, it is a change in 219 but not related to the rotation changes.

If you are saving your program preferences you may want to update your option setting for the control template visibility on store.

I shall be posting a summary of the 219 changes shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

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Godfrey Earnshaw
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Hi Martin
I don't know how I missed that, I thought I was fairly observant but all that passed me by.

Thanks for the info.

Godders
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