click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
Important Privacy Information cookie information pre-print options:    

click image to open Templot Club in a new tab
Templot club top logo
looking for Templot? - (free)



 you are not logged in  - Login | Join


receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  Open Source  TemplotMEC  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            messages archive on Yahoo
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Templot talk > Using Steel Rail - long term implications?
Templot web site

                 Using Steel Rail - long term implications?
     
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
1st message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 16:09
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Brian Tulley
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi all,

Whilst realising there are many "for" and "against" voters for Steel Rail I'm pretty much in the "for" category (hypothetically, because I've never actually tried it).

However, I recently heard that a Mr. Norman Solomon wasn't so keen on Steel Rail, preferring Nickel Silver instead. Apparently this is because he has found past problems with soldered joints eventually failing.

Bearing in mind that I am contemplating Ply & rivet construction (dinosaur I know) which does have several soldered joints here and there, I was wondering what experiences others have found with regard to long term reliability of soldered joints with steel rail?

Fortunately the layout will be located in (what was) a bedroom, so corrosion etc. won't be too much of an issue I hope.

Many thanks.

Best Regards,

Brian.
__________
message ref: 1781

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
2nd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 18:45
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bob Ellis
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Brian,

I have also been put off using steel rail by Norman Solomon's comments about failure of soldered joints. Two other factors also influenced me. A friend is having considerable rust problems with the layout he built recently, despite the fact that it does not live in a damp environment and he uses a dehumidifier. The second factor is colour: steel rail looks too dull and grey to my eye, whereas nickel silver looks too yellow. However, C & L now have a new type of nickel silver rail called 'HiNi' (I think), which looks much less yellow and, to my eyes, closer to the real thing than either ordinary nickel silver or steel.

Hope this helps,

Bob Ellis

__________
message ref: 1784

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
3rd message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 20:05
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Brian,

The problem in soldering steel is that the heat of soldering tends to burn off the thin film of oil which is on most steel sections as supplied. This leaves the area around the joint fully exposed to rusting caused by atmospheric moisture. The usual answer is to protect soldered joints on steel with a good dollop of grease, or a thick coat of paint.

That's not very practical for trackwork, of course. So you have to rely on keeping it in a warm dry atmosphere for the lifetime of the layout. That means, for example, that if you are unexpectedly away from home for a few weeks, there has to be someone to keep the heating on in the railway room, and know that it needs to be kept on.

I know steel should look like steel, but model steel rail has a dull grey colour which doesn't to my eyes look any more like real railway track than nickel-silver. Real rail is subject to high contact pressures and rolling wear which tends to burnish the surface. Our models don't do that.

Which means that steel rail comes with all the worries about rusting, and no very obvious trade-off advantage that I can see. I'm with Norman Solomon in sticking to nickel-silver. The latest "hi-nickel" alloy from C&L doesn't have the yellow tinge of traditional nickel-silver rail, and to a blind man on a galloping horse, it does look a bit like the real thing.

regards,

Martin.
__________
message ref: 1786

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
4th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 21:07
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
JohnM
Knaresborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I have been using steel rail for the past eight years. The layout is in the loft and is subject to extremes of temperature etc. There is no evidence of rusting, and leaving heat on in the loft is unheard of! In fact I have more of a problem with steel wheels (Gibson).

The biggest problem with steel rail is in the use of flux. When the track is soldered you must remove all traces of flux asap. My track uses plastic chairs (Exactoscale) on plywood sleepers. Have not tried (and would NOT do so) soldering steel onto Cu clad sleepers. I am very loathe to contradict Martin, but it does look far better. I also notice it is becoming more common at exhibitions.

Regards,

John M
__________
message ref: 1787

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
5th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 21:13
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Brian Lewis
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I think people misunderstand the 'corrosion' angle Brian. 'Tis not the damp atmosphere that is the 'killer'. Soldering steel rail requires the use of active, i.e. acid fluxes. Unless these are neutralized completely, then corrosion will set in.

My own 7mm layout is steel - the trackwork was constructed in 2000. A joint fails periodically and has to be re-soldered - am I starting the corrosion process all over again by doing this?

As most folk know, for years I championed the use of steel rail, primarily because I disliked the yellowing of normal nickel silver rail. But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution.

'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right. I am currently planning another layout. You can be sure the trackwork will be constructed using HiNi rail.

Regards

Brian Lewis

C&L

__________
message ref: 1788

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
6th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:30
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andy Reichert
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
My Proto:87 (and P4 compatible) frogs are also available in stainless steel. Exceptionally shiny top, no rust ever. :)  Incidentally  I do have BH versions in #8 as well as FB in all sizes.

http://www.proto87.com
http://www.proto87.com/proto87-turnout-parts.html

Andy

PS. Wasted about 20 minutes replying on forum instead of by my usual email. Since I'm only an an occasional user, my forum specific user name and password were long forgotten and I had to go through the reset proceedure hassle (by email of course) , including searching my trash because the formum new password email triggered the spam test and got filtered :)
__________
message ref: 1789

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
7th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:43
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Brian Lewis wrote:'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right. I am currently planning another layout. You can be sure the trackwork will be constructed using HiNi rail.Hi Brian

Is this what you're selling as standard when a customer orders nickel-silver rail from you?  I must admit that I hadn't bought N/S rail from you because I assumed the normal yellowy stuff.  The HiNi does sound good.  I prefer the look of steel rail over the "normal" N/S rail, but don't like the faff of finding the rail has rusted because a smidgen of flux was left behind.

Cheers

__________
message ref: 1790

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
8th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:52
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Andy Reichert wrote: PS. Wasted about 20 minutes replying on forum instead of by my usual email. Since I'm only an an occasional user, my forum specific user name and password were long forgotten and I had to go through the reset procedure hassle (by email of course)Hi Andy,

The cookie for this site is valid for 5 years. If you allow the site to set it, you should never need to login or remember your password. Just visit the forum and you will be logged in automatically every time. It works fine for me -- I can't help feeling that some folks make a lot of extra trouble for themselves by being so paranoid about cookies.

If you don't want to do that your browser will remember your user name and password for you. If I choose to log out, this is what I see as soon as I click Login again -- Firefox remembers it all for me. :) What are you doing different?



regards,

Martin.
__________
message ref: 1791

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
9th message | this message only posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:53
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
polybear
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi all,

Many thanks for the replies to my query regarding Steel Rail.

Brian Lewis wrote: As most folk know, for years I championed the use of steel rail, primarily because I disliked the yellowing of normal nickel silver rail. But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution.

'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right. I am currently planning another layout. You can be sure the trackwork will be constructed using HiNi rail.

One of the primary reasons I'm considering the use of Steel Rail is due to the suggestion that it stays clean much longer than N.S. Rail (perhaps this explains it's growing popularity for exhibition layouts?).

However, your HiNi rail sounds interesting Brian.  How does it compare to Steel rail for staying clean please?  And what solder & flux do you recommend for soldering ?

Many thanks.
Brian.

__________
message ref: 1792

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
10th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2008 00:06
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Brian Lewis
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
polybear wrote: One of the primary reasons I'm considering the use of Steel Rail is due to the suggestion that it stays clean much longer than N.S. Rail (perhaps this explains it's growing popularity for exhibition layouts?).

However, your HiNi rail sounds interesting Brian. How does it compare to Steel rail for staying clean please? And what solder & flux do you recommend for soldering?

Hi Brian,

Where do you get the idea that steel rail is gaining in popularity? Manufacturers will tell you that the trend is in the opposite direction.

HiNi rail stays very clean and responds to dressing with graphite. It is now well accepted as a real advance on normal 9% Nickel content track. (With a single order for 1350 metres of our HiNi railed flexitrack under our belt, we would say that....).

Solder? 145. Flux? Phosphoric acid based. Although, personally, I just use 179 Solder Cream, both for jointing rail and for electrical connections.

Regards

Brian Lewis

C&L
__________
message ref: 1793

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
11th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2008 00:17
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Bob Ellis
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides

Martin Wynne wrote:  The latest "hi-nickel" alloy from C&L doesn't have the yellow tinge of traditional nickel-silver rail, and to a blind man on a galloping horse, it does look a bit like the real thing.

Oy! Who are you calling a blind man on a galloping horse?:)

Best wishes,

Bob Ellis


__________
message ref: 1794

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
12th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2008 00:43
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi All

I have just got home from work and wish to say that I have been using phosphur bronze rail for years. It stays relativly clean for a considerable time even on the exhibition circuit where I was for ever cleaning nickel silver rail, the down side the head of the rail looks a little rusty even after cleaning but on the plus side the rest of the rail looks rusty all the time just like the prototype without spending hours painting it. It also solders a dream.

Cheers Phil
__________
message ref: 1795

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
13th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2008 21:12
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Roderic Cameron
Teignmouth, Devon

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Brian (Lewis)

Following on from Paul Boyd's question, is HiNi what we will get now if N/S rail is ordered from you?

Any chance of a photo to compare the three options?

Regards

Rod


__________
message ref: 1796

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
14th message | this message only posted: 23 Jan 2008 21:22
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Roderic Cameron
Teignmouth, Devon

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides

Brian Lewis wrote: But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution.

'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right.

And it's only the running surface we should be concerned with, because we paint the sides - don't we?

__________
message ref: 1797

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
15th message | this message only posted: 24 Jan 2008 22:59
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Roderic Cameron wrote: Any chance of a photo to compare the three options?
Can I second that please - any chance of a photo!

Richard
__________
message ref: 1801

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
16th message | this message only posted: 14 Mar 2008 18:05
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
I've recently purchased some NiHi rail, and I've taken this comparison photograph. The rail on the right is Scalefour stores mild-steel bullhead (4mm), the middle rail is C&L's new HiNi 7mm bullhead, and the right rail is "unknown" nickel silver 4mm F/B rail.

I hope you all find it useful.

 


__________
message ref: 2120
Attached Image (viewed 2741 times):

rail-side-view.jpg
 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
17th message | this message only posted: 14 Mar 2008 23:14
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Richard - that is a useful photo.  Thanks for posting it.  The HiNi does look much nicer than standard nickel-silver.

Just one teensy little point though - isn't the 4mm rail upside-down? :)

__________
message ref: 2121

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
18th message | this message only posted: 14 Mar 2008 23:45
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Paul Boyd wrote: Richard - that is a useful photo.  Thanks for posting it.  The HiNi does look much nicer than standard nickel-silver.

Just one teensy little point though - isn't the 4mm rail upside-down? :)

No - but the 7mm one is :? - the head is bigger than the foot for bullhead.
__________
message ref: 2122

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
19th message | this message only posted: 14 Mar 2008 23:47
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Richard wrote:
No - but the 7mm one is :? - the head is bigger than the foot for bullhead.I'm 99.99% sure the 7mm one is the right way up - it has the rounded profile head.

__________
message ref: 2123

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
20th message | this message only posted: 15 Mar 2008 00:20
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
NGT_Models
Lansing, Michigan USA



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Paul Boyd wrote: Richard wrote:
No - but the 7mm one is :? - the head is bigger than the foot for bullhead.I'm 99.99% sure the 7mm one is the right way up - it has the rounded profile head.
Me too..., 7mm is right way up.
    Wow..., that looks like steel, more then steel does.

Zoë

__________
message ref: 2124

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
21st message | this message only posted: 15 Mar 2008 01:39
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Nope: (from the Scalefour resources page)

__________
message ref: 2125

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
22nd message | this message only posted: 15 Mar 2008 20:31
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Brian Lewis
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
NGT_Models wrote: Wow..., that looks like steel, more then steel does.

Zoë

Well it would Zoë - because we are not comparing like for like.

Model rail has to be fabricated for a grade of steel that will draw. That grade is just normal mild steel.

'Real' rail is normally an austenitic manganese steel, containing 11-14% manganese. Also new rail is soft, but is given increased surface hardness by the traffic that passes over it. These factors make the rail more 'silver' than mild steel, which is quite grey in colour.

What a miserable day it is. I have just come in from hauling logs up the slope from my woodland with a tractor and trailer. Sliding all over the place - the rain has made the pathways very slippery. I now feel qualified to go to Yellowknife next winter and get a job as an Ice Road Trucker......

Regards

Brian Lewis

Carrs -- C+L Finescale.

http://www.finescale.org.uk
__________
message ref: 2135

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
23rd message | this message only posted: 15 Mar 2008 22:00
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Interesting!  I know that on BH, the head is bigger than the foot (and I've just checked some of my track to make sure I have it right!), but I must admit that I went by the shape rather than the size when looking at the 7mm rail.  If that is the foot at the top, then to my eyes it looks a bit too rounded.  Maybe it's just the photo.

Brian - at least you won't break through into a freezing oblivion in your woods!  Not been doing a Vorderman, have you? :D

__________
message ref: 2137

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
24th message | this message only posted: 16 Mar 2008 00:21
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
John Preston
Lethbridge, Alberta Canada

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Brian Lewis wrote:
Brian wrote
What a miserable day it is. I have just come in from hauling logs up the slope from my woodland with a tractor and trailer. Sliding all over the place - the rain has made the pathways very slippery. I now feel qualified to go to Yellowknife next winter and get a job as an Ice Road Trucker......

This request is too  good to pass up.

Here is a website for a trucking firm in Yellowknife , and I believe they may be looking for drivers.  http://mytelus.yellowpages.ca/bus/Northwest-Territories/Yellowknife/RTL-Robinson-Enterprises-Ltd/2997630.html?adid=14190780aa

My stepson works there as a welder / fabricator.

My apologies for being slightly off topic.

Regards

John Preston
__________
message ref: 2141

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
25th message | this message only posted: 16 Mar 2008 21:38
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Brian Lewis
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Paul Boyd wrote: Brian - at least you won't break through into a freezing oblivion in your woods!  Not been doing a Vorderman, have you? :D
No. Just tidying up where last week's storm took some trees down. I try to stay off the area at this time of the year as there is a swathe of bluebells about 100 metres x 400 metres in area. Quite breathtaking in a few weeks time, although the first few are in flower now. 'Tis far too early. Saw plenty of Roe Deer - as big a pest as squirrels. But deer do taste good - never tried squirrels. About 15 years ago I planted 80,000 bulbs in clear areas. The deer eat the shoots as they grow - hardly get any flowers at all now.

Mrs. Vorderman? There was a crane in her grounds last week. Not sure what she is doing.

All of which has nothing to with Templot, so I will withdraw before Martin excommunicates me. All these emails criticizing his 'bloatware' front end. Tut tut.

Regards

Brian Lewis
__________
message ref: 2156

 
This is topic ID = 321     Page created at 12:56 (local time)  
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

Templot Club > Forums > Templot talk > Using Steel Rail - long term implications?
about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2019  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems