Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
|
|||
| author | remove search highlighting | ||
|---|---|---|---|
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 17:09 from: Brian Tulley
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi all, Whilst realising there are many "for" and "against" voters for Steel Rail I'm pretty much in the "for" category (hypothetically, because I've never actually tried it). However, I recently heard that a Mr. Norman Solomon wasn't so keen on Steel Rail, preferring Nickel Silver instead. Apparently this is because he has found past problems with soldered joints eventually failing. Bearing in mind that I am contemplating Ply & rivet construction (dinosaur I know) which does have several soldered joints here and there, I was wondering what experiences others have found with regard to long term reliability of soldered joints with steel rail? Fortunately the layout will be located in (what was) a bedroom, so corrosion etc. won't be too much of an issue I hope. Many thanks. Best Regards, Brian. |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 19:45 from: Bob Ellis click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Brian, I have also been put off using steel rail by Norman Solomon's comments about failure of soldered joints. Two other factors also influenced me. A friend is having considerable rust problems with the layout he built recently, despite the fact that it does not live in a damp environment and he uses a dehumidifier. The second factor is colour: steel rail looks too dull and grey to my eye, whereas nickel silver looks too yellow. However, C & L now have a new type of nickel silver rail called 'HiNi' (I think), which looks much less yellow and, to my eyes, closer to the real thing than either ordinary nickel silver or steel. Hope this helps, Bob Ellis |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 21:05 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Brian, The problem in soldering steel is that the heat of soldering tends to burn off the thin film of oil which is on most steel sections as supplied. This leaves the area around the joint fully exposed to rusting caused by atmospheric moisture. The usual answer is to protect soldered joints on steel with a good dollop of grease, or a thick coat of paint. That's not very practical for trackwork, of course. So you have to rely on keeping it in a warm dry atmosphere for the lifetime of the layout. That means, for example, that if you are unexpectedly away from home for a few weeks, there has to be someone to keep the heating on in the railway room, and know that it needs to be kept on. I know steel should look like steel, but model steel rail has a dull grey colour which doesn't to my eyes look any more like real railway track than nickel-silver. Real rail is subject to high contact pressures and rolling wear which tends to burnish the surface. Our models don't do that. Which means that steel rail comes with all the worries about rusting, and no very obvious trade-off advantage that I can see. I'm with Norman Solomon in sticking to nickel-silver. The latest "hi-nickel" alloy from C&L doesn't have the yellow tinge of traditional nickel-silver rail, and to a blind man on a galloping horse, it does look a bit like the real thing. regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:07 from: JohnM
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I have been using steel rail for the past eight years. The layout is in the loft and is subject to extremes of temperature etc. There is no evidence of rusting, and leaving heat on in the loft is unheard of! In fact I have more of a problem with steel wheels (Gibson). The biggest problem with steel rail is in the use of flux. When the track is soldered you must remove all traces of flux asap. My track uses plastic chairs (Exactoscale) on plywood sleepers. Have not tried (and would NOT do so) soldering steel onto Cu clad sleepers. I am very loathe to contradict Martin, but it does look far better. I also notice it is becoming more common at exhibitions. Regards, John M |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 22:13 from: Brian Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I think people misunderstand the 'corrosion' angle Brian. 'Tis not the damp atmosphere that is the 'killer'. Soldering steel rail requires the use of active, i.e. acid fluxes. Unless these are neutralized completely, then corrosion will set in. My own 7mm layout is steel - the trackwork was constructed in 2000. A joint fails periodically and has to be re-soldered - am I starting the corrosion process all over again by doing this? As most folk know, for years I championed the use of steel rail, primarily because I disliked the yellowing of normal nickel silver rail. But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution. 'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right. I am currently planning another layout. You can be sure the trackwork will be constructed using HiNi rail. Regards Brian Lewis C&L |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 23:30 from: Andy Reichert click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
My Proto:87 (and P4 compatible) frogs are also available in stainless steel. Exceptionally shiny top, no rust ever.  Incidentally I do have BH versions in #8 as well as FB in all sizes. http://www.proto87.com http://www.proto87.com/proto87-turnout-parts.html Andy PS. Wasted about 20 minutes replying on forum instead of by my usual email. Since I'm only an an occasional user, my forum specific user name and password were long forgotten and I had to go through the reset proceedure hassle (by email of course) , including searching my trash because the formum new password email triggered the spam test and got filtered |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 23:43 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Lewis wrote:'HiNi' rail, containing 18% nickel, resists oxidation and yellowing. Also the running surface is a bright silver and looks so right. I am currently planning another layout. You can be sure the trackwork will be constructed using HiNi rail.Hi Brian Is this what you're selling as standard when a customer orders nickel-silver rail from you? I must admit that I hadn't bought N/S rail from you because I assumed the normal yellowy stuff. The HiNi does sound good. I prefer the look of steel rail over the "normal" N/S rail, but don't like the faff of finding the rail has rusted because a smidgen of flux was left behind. Cheers |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 23:52 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Andy Reichert wrote: PS. Wasted about 20 minutes replying on forum instead of by my usual email. Since I'm only an an occasional user, my forum specific user name and password were long forgotten and I had to go through the reset procedure hassle (by email of course)Hi Andy, The cookie for this site is valid for 5 years. If you allow the site to set it, you should never need to login or remember your password. Just visit the forum and you will be logged in automatically every time. It works fine for me -- I can't help feeling that some folks make a lot of extra trouble for themselves by being so paranoid about cookies. If you don't want to do that your browser will remember your user name and password for you. If I choose to log out, this is what I see as soon as I click Login again -- Firefox remembers it all for me. What are you doing different?login.png  regards, Martin. |
||
|
posted: 22 Jan 2008 23:53 from: polybear click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi all, Many thanks for the replies to my query regarding Steel Rail. Brian Lewis wrote: As most folk know, for years I championed the use of steel rail, primarily because I disliked the yellowing of normal nickel silver rail. But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution. One of the primary reasons I'm considering the use of Steel Rail is due to the suggestion that it stays clean much longer than N.S. Rail (perhaps this explains it's growing popularity for exhibition layouts?). However, your HiNi rail sounds interesting Brian. How does it compare to Steel rail for staying clean please? And what solder & flux do you recommend for soldering ? Many thanks. Brian. |
||
|
posted: 23 Jan 2008 01:06 from: Brian Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
polybear wrote: One of the primary reasons I'm considering the use of Steel Rail is due to the suggestion that it stays clean much longer than N.S. Rail (perhaps this explains it's growing popularity for exhibition layouts?). Hi Brian, Where do you get the idea that steel rail is gaining in popularity? Manufacturers will tell you that the trend is in the opposite direction. HiNi rail stays very clean and responds to dressing with graphite. It is now well accepted as a real advance on normal 9% Nickel content track. (With a single order for 1350 metres of our HiNi railed flexitrack under our belt, we would say that....). Solder? 145. Flux? Phosphoric acid based. Although, personally, I just use 179 Solder Cream, both for jointing rail and for electrical connections. Regards Brian Lewis C&L |
||
|
posted: 23 Jan 2008 01:17 from: Bob Ellis click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: The latest "hi-nickel" alloy from C&L doesn't have the yellow tinge of traditional nickel-silver rail, and to a blind man on a galloping horse, it does look a bit like the real thing. Oy! Who are you calling a blind man on a galloping horse? Best wishes, Bob Ellis |
||
|
posted: 23 Jan 2008 01:43 from: Phil O
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi All I have just got home from work and wish to say that I have been using phosphur bronze rail for years. It stays relativly clean for a considerable time even on the exhibition circuit where I was for ever cleaning nickel silver rail, the down side the head of the rail looks a little rusty even after cleaning but on the plus side the rest of the rail looks rusty all the time just like the prototype without spending hours painting it. It also solders a dream. Cheers Phil |
||
|
posted: 23 Jan 2008 22:12 from: Roderic Cameron
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian (Lewis) Following on from Paul Boyd's question, is HiNi what we will get now if N/S rail is ordered from you? Any chance of a photo to compare the three options? Regards Rod |
||
| Last edited on 23 Jan 2008 22:12 by Roderic Cameron |
|||
|
posted: 23 Jan 2008 22:22 from: Roderic Cameron
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Lewis wrote: But in truth, steel rail does not look that realistic - the running surface is too grey. There is a solution. And it's only the running surface we should be concerned with, because we paint the sides - don't we? |
||
|
posted: 24 Jan 2008 23:59 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Roderic Cameron wrote: Any chance of a photo to compare the three options? Can I second that please - any chance of a photo! Richard |
||
|
posted: 14 Mar 2008 19:05 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I've recently purchased some NiHi rail, and I've taken this comparison photograph. The rail on the right is Scalefour stores mild-steel bullhead (4mm), the middle rail is C&L's new HiNi 7mm bullhead, and the right rail is "unknown" nickel silver 4mm F/B rail. I hope you all find it useful. |
||
| Attachment: attach_250_321_rail-side-view.jpg 2754 | |||
| Last edited on 14 Mar 2008 19:06 by richard_t |
|||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 00:14 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Richard - that is a useful photo. Thanks for posting it. The HiNi does look much nicer than standard nickel-silver. Just one teensy little point though - isn't the 4mm rail upside-down? |
||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 00:45 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote: Richard - that is a useful photo. Thanks for posting it. The HiNi does look much nicer than standard nickel-silver. No - but the 7mm one is  - the head is bigger than the foot for bullhead. |
||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 00:47 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Richard wrote:No - but the 7mm one isI'm 99.99% sure the 7mm one is the right way up - it has the rounded profile head. |
||
| Last edited on 15 Mar 2008 00:48 by Paul Boyd |
|||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 01:20 from: NGT_Models
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote: Richard wrote:Me too..., 7mm is right way up. Wow..., that looks like steel, more then steel does. Zoë |
||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 02:39 from: richard_t
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Nope: (from the Scalefour resources page)bs95r.gif |
||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 21:31 from: Brian Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
NGT_Models wrote: Wow..., that looks like steel, more then steel does. Well it would Zoë - because we are not comparing like for like. Model rail has to be fabricated for a grade of steel that will draw. That grade is just normal mild steel. 'Real' rail is normally an austenitic manganese steel, containing 11-14% manganese. Also new rail is soft, but is given increased surface hardness by the traffic that passes over it. These factors make the rail more 'silver' than mild steel, which is quite grey in colour. What a miserable day it is. I have just come in from hauling logs up the slope from my woodland with a tractor and trailer. Sliding all over the place - the rain has made the pathways very slippery. I now feel qualified to go to Yellowknife next winter and get a job as an Ice Road Trucker...... Regards Brian Lewis Carrs -- C+L Finescale. http://www.finescale.org.uk |
||
|
posted: 15 Mar 2008 23:00 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Interesting! I know that on BH, the head is bigger than the foot (and I've just checked some of my track to make sure I have it right!), but I must admit that I went by the shape rather than the size when looking at the 7mm rail. If that is the foot at the top, then to my eyes it looks a bit too rounded. Maybe it's just the photo. Brian - at least you won't break through into a freezing oblivion in your woods! Not been doing a Vorderman, have you?  |
||
|
posted: 16 Mar 2008 01:21 from: John Preston
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Brian Lewis wrote:
This request is too good to pass up.  Here is a website for a trucking firm in Yellowknife , and I believe they may be looking for drivers. http://mytelus.yellowpages.ca/bus/Northwest-Territories/Yellowknife/RTL-Robinson-Enterprises-Ltd/2997630.html?adid=14190780aa My stepson works there as a welder / fabricator. My apologies for being slightly off topic. Regards John Preston |
||
|
posted: 16 Mar 2008 22:38 from: Brian Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote: Brian - at least you won't break through into a freezing oblivion in your woods! Not been doing a Vorderman, have you? No. Just tidying up where last week's storm took some trees down. I try to stay off the area at this time of the year as there is a swathe of bluebells about 100 metres x 400 metres in area. Quite breathtaking in a few weeks time, although the first few are in flower now. 'Tis far too early. Saw plenty of Roe Deer - as big a pest as squirrels. But deer do taste good - never tried squirrels. About 15 years ago I planted 80,000 bulbs in clear areas. The deer eat the shoots as they grow - hardly get any flowers at all now. Mrs. Vorderman? There was a crane in her grounds last week. Not sure what she is doing. All of which has nothing to with Templot, so I will withdraw before Martin excommunicates me. All these emails criticizing his 'bloatware' front end. Tut tut. Regards Brian Lewis |
||
| Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so. |