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1st message | this message only posted: 9 Feb 2018 16:58
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Here's a list of the changes in 218d:

1. I have made some changes to improve screen performance when zooming in and panning on a large track plan. See:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3207&forum_id=1

How much difference it makes will vary with different systems and screen sizes. You may see no difference, or a big difference.

On smaller track plans you probably won't see much difference.



2. There is a new option to restrict the number of background templates being shown on the screen when zooming out. Again this may or may not make a significant difference to the screen response. See the above topic link for more details.



3. I have re-written the code for the make return curve function. I was never entirely happy with its working, and it was often annoying that it wouldn't work on transition curves. It does now.

At the same time I have adopted a non-standard way of working for that function. Instead of putting the return curve in the control template, it is put on the background, leaving the turnout in the control template. The reason for that is that a return curve shouldn't have its length or radius changed, otherwise it won't function as a return curve. So there is little point in leaving it in the control template after making it. If you want to change the length or curving, make a branch track instead.

No doubt this breaks somebody's rule about consistent user interfaces. They will just have to lump it. :)



4. I have created a new top menu (we haven't had one of those for ages) called utils. I have moved there the utility functions from the tools menu -- the ruler, dummy vehicle, metric calculator, etc. In a future update I want to split the spacing-ring and dummy vehicle into separate functions.

This leaves the tools menu shortened to a more sensible length, and logically concerned only with track design.



5. After 20 years I have relaxed my self-imposed rule to make everything fit on a screen 1024 pixels wide. Most folks now have screens wider than that. Templot now needs at least 1120 pixels screen width.

If you have a smaller screen and find part of the top toolbars missing, you will find duplicates of the missing buttons on the zoom/pan panel. Or you can change the program size using the slider at the bottom right of the screen.



cheers,

Martin.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 9 Feb 2018 19:07
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote: 

4. I have created a new top menu (we haven't had one of those for ages) called utils. I have moved there the utility functions from the tools menu -- the ruler, dummy vehicle, metric calculator, etc. In a future update I want to split the spacing-ring and dummy vehicle into separate functions.

This leaves the tools menu shortened to a more sensible length, and logically concerned only with track design.

Martin.
Martin,
 Good that you have shortened the tools menu but should the adjacent track centres menu option still be in it ? Most of the other tool actually create something which is what a tool is for. The track centres doesn't, it just changes a setting for the next tool to use.

Rob


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Martin Wynne
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Rob Manchester wrote:Good that you have shortened the tools menu but should the adjacent track centres menu option still be in it ? Most of the other tool actually create something which is what a tool is for. The track centres doesn't, it just changes a setting for the next tool to use.Hi Rob,

This is where logic and users part company. :?

The adjacent track centres ... menu item is actually in the geometry menu. It still is, and that's where it has been for years.

But I got so many reports of users running into grief because they had used the tools functions without first setting a suitable track spacing, that I thought it would be useful to have a readout of the current track centres settings at the top of the tools menu.

It then made no sense to have to go to a different menu to change the settings. So I added a duplicate menu item for that directly below the readouts.

This is where it becomes impossible to follow strict GUI design rules in the face of actual convenient usage. There are also some users who fail to grasp that "adjacent track centres" means the same as "track spacing". I wish I had a pound for every time I have explained that over the years. I didn't want to use the word "spacing" on the menu for fear of confusion with the 6ft way between the rails.

Nowadays there are also mouse actions for setting the track centres.

cheers,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2018 20:41
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madscientist
 

 

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great stuff Martin


I have not noticed any improvement  when I use the bounding rectangle 

regards

dave
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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote: I have not noticed any improvement  when I use the bounding rectangleHi Dave,

Don't forget you must draw the rectangle AND switch on its use for limiting template drawing (SHIFT+END does that). It is also used for other purposes (image file exports).

You will see a difference only if

a. it is a large track plan, say more than 50 background templates, some quite long, and

b. you zoom out further than the rectangle. If you zoom inside the rectangle you won't see any difference from using the rectangle, it should be faster than before regardless. But only for large track plans.

If you have a high-end fast system, the improvement may be only minor.

It is definitely making a difference here.

cheers,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 12 Feb 2018 22:11
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Philip Griffiths
Ireland



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Hello Martin, I'm getting a weird response when running on Parallels.  The right hand side of the screen is missing, and when I select a template it appears then exists in ghost format. regards [img]blob:http://85a.co.uk/bbb20c24-8efa-4434-af7e-7bf5866674b7[/img]
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Attachment: screen grab templot.jpeg (Downloaded 44 times)
 
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Martin Wynne
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Hi Philip,

Is that happening all the time? Or only when you click on a background template?

Did the same happen before 218d, or is it new in 218d?

Does Parallels provide any controls to change the size of the container for Windows programs?

Thanks for posting it.

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: I have not noticed any improvement  when I use the bounding rectangleHi Dave,

Don't forget you must draw the rectangle AND switch on its use for limiting template drawing (SHIFT+END does that). It is also used for other purposes (image file exports).

You will see a difference only if

a. it is a large track plan, say more than 50 background templates, some quite long, and

b. you zoom out further than the rectangle. If you zoom inside the rectangle you won't see any difference from using the rectangle, it should be faster than before regardless. But only for large track plans.

If you have a high-end fast system, the improvement may be only minor.

It is definitely making a difference here.

cheers,

Martin.
yes , I did all that , interestingly , since  I have long templates , the bounding rectangle , only removes a certain number of templates that fall completely outside  the rectangle 
I dont really notice any improvements , lag on scrolling still remains an issue, but only if I attempt to scroll too fast. ( 2.7Ghx 4 core i5 , 16 GB ram , running  native windows 7 in Parallels under OSX !!!, 27-inch (2560 x 1440) AMD Radeon HD 6770M 512Mb video ram ) 

thanks again 

dave


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Martin Wynne
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Hi Dave,

If you are using Parallels, are you seeing the same problem as Philip?

regards,

Martin.

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richard_t
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Although I didn't see much if any improvement on scrolling with Templot 218d over the previous version - I think panning is a tad quicker. The plan is around 14M x 8M (not all will be modelled!), and some of the platform road templates are around 4.5M long.

But the boundary rectangle redraw option was a great help - and I think I've "finished" my plan with its help (i.e. as in real model railways I wonder if a Templot plan is ever really finished...) The last bit I had to do was rejig an entry into a platform as it clashed with the next platform, and I wouldn't have been able to have simultaneous movements into both platforms. The outline envelop generator was a great help for this. Thankfully it wasn't much work (snaking a turnout back 2 timbers, and realigning the platform road...)
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Philip Griffiths
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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Philip,

Is that happening all the time? Or only when you click on a background template?

Did the same happen before 218d, or is it new in 218d?

Does Parallels provide any controls to change the size of the container for Windows programs?

Thanks for posting it.

regards,

Martin.
Martin 
Currently travelling Cardiff to Belfast. Have not had the chance to check about the container. It used to work ok in previous versions. 

What happenned is that the grid appears for ⅔ of the width of the window. If you pan the track disaspears where the grid stops. Clicking on a background template to highlight it - turns white - it appears but leaves a ghost if you pan again or try to move it. 

Regards. 



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Martin Wynne
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Hi Philip,

I'm waiting for Dave (or anyone else) to report on whether he is seeing anything similar in Parallels.

I don't think this is related to any of the changes in 218d. I've been doing some measuring on your screenshot, and it seems that the background bitmap is stuck at 1624 x 1140 pixels. Given that it gets set to the full screen size during start-up, that's a bit of a mystery, unless it is possible to change the Windows screen size in Parallels while a program is running?

By screen size I don't mean the size of the trackpad window, I mean the full area of the monitor and the current screen resolution setting. On a normal Windows desktop computer that wouldn't get changed very often, and certainly not in the middle of using some software. But it's possible a virtual machine may allow it to be dragged to a new size at any time. I just don't know.

I'm trying very hard not to get forced into a position where I have to buy a Mac computer just to understand what's going on. Every time problems are reported I find it very difficult to follow what is being said.

You don't want to hear what I'm going to say next. But a few years ago I had a system which produced results very similar to your screenshot, and that turned out to be a faulty graphics card. :(

I'm hoping that this will prove to have been a temporary glitch, and that the next time you do a restart it will come right. Try to do that with nothing else running, so that we are not looking at problems caused by a shortage of memory.

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Dave,

If you are using Parallels, are you seeing the same problem as Philip?

regards,

Martin.
no , nothing like that 
Dave 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Philip,

I'm waiting for Dave (or anyone else) to report on whether he is seeing anything similar in Parallels.

I don't think this is related to any of the changes in 218d. I've been doing some measuring on your screenshot, and it seems that the background bitmap is stuck at 1624 x 1140 pixels. Given that it gets set to the full screen size during start-up, that's a bit of a mystery, unless it is possible to change the Windows screen size in Parallels while a program is running?

By screen size I don't mean the size of the trackpad window, I mean the full area of the monitor and the current screen resolution setting. On a normal Windows desktop computer that wouldn't get changed very often, and certainly not in the middle of using some software. But it's possible a virtual machine may allow it to be dragged to a new size at any time. I just don't know.

I'm trying very hard not to get forced into a position where I have to buy a Mac computer just to understand what's going on. Every time problems are reported I find it very difficult to follow what is being said.

You don't want to hear what I'm going to say next. But a few years ago I had a system which produced results very similar to your screenshot, and that turned out to be a faulty graphics card. :(

I'm hoping that this will prove to have been a temporary glitch, and that the next time you do a restart it will come right. Try to do that with nothing else running, so that we are not looking at problems caused by a shortage of memory.

cheers,

Martin.
I use Parallels extensively , on the MAC, running Windows 7 , having changed over from VMware some time ago.  I run a whole plethora of Windows CAD stuff. SCARM, PCB layout software etc.  To-date I have never  had an application perform weirdly under Parallels that didnt also exhibit the same under straight Windows.  I find parallels very very robust and rock solid. IN reality its not an emulator  at all, you are  simply running windows.
I doubt this has anything to do with Parallels and is more likely a Windows issue 

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Martin Wynne
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Thanks Dave.

But what's the answer to the question?

Does Parallels always use the full area of the monitor? Or can you have Parallels running in one part of the screen and normal Mac operations on another part?

And if so, can you change the size of the Parallels section while a Windows program is running within it?

And if you can, do scrollbars then appear if going smaller? What happens in the blank area if going larger?

I know it is all a plot to get me to buy a Mac to find this stuff out, but I'm not going to, ok?

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Thanks Dave.

But what's the answer to the question?

Does Parallels always use the full area of the monitor? Or can you have Parallels running in one part of the screen and normal Mac operations on another part?

And if so, can you change the size of the Parallels section while a Windows program is running within it?

And if you can, do scrollbars then appear if going smaller? What happens in the blank area if going larger?

regards,

Martin.
Parallels runs in Two Modes 
full screen 
Coherence mode 

In full screen the windows desktop appears to cover the screen , in the normal way and the application windows open also in the normal way , sized by the application 

IN coherence mode , the Mac desktop is displayed and Windows applications appear in a standard window , again essentially sized by the application 

You dont normally specify any sort of " Parallels "  " window " size for the windows application nor can you resize the resolution 

To the windows app, the resolution of the screen is the full Mac screen size and the application decides its size as it initialises 

dave

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by way of illustration , heres a screen shot of my crowded desktop , all the other windows are native Mac apps , Templot was simply started from an Icon 


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Thanks Dave.

In coherance mode, how does Parallels set the screen size for the Windows application to run in? Is that under user control? If not, how does it get decided?

Looking at Philip's screenshot, can you say which mode he was using?

Which mode do you normally use for Templot?

Can you post screenshots showing Templot running in both modes? Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

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Philip is running in full screen mode


I normally use coherence

"Parallels set the screen size for the Windows application to run in? Is that under user control? If not, how does it get decided?"

Its decided in exactly the same way as the app decides the initial screen size in Windows , Parallels does not provide a Window " container "
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I should add

That in full screen mode , there are two options

full screen as in the Windows desktop takes over the whole screen

Windowed desktop, IN that case the user by dragging the windows essentially sets a " variable " screen resolution
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heres a windowed full screen mode , no issues as I resize it , Templot reconfigures correctly
IN full screen mode , the screen looks like any normal Widows desktop , the user cannot resize the desktop 

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madscientist wrote: Its decided in exactly the same way as the app decides the initial screen size in Windows , Parallels does not provide a Window " container "But in that case there is no difference between full screen and coherance? :?

An app doesn't decide the screen size in Windows. It gets told by Windows the size of monitor screen.

This is getting silly. In Parallels what is the result of a Windows app setting a variable to Screen.Width?

And is it capable of changing while the app is running?

Because something changed in Philip's screenshot.

regards,

Martin.

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Martin , I do notice that in Templet under Parallels, When I resize the window, I get artifatcs of the template design in the area uncovered by the increase in size

When I release the mouse button, the relevant Windows repaint message causes Templot to redraw and properly fill the new window ( in about 1 sec)

Is this what Philip is seeing
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madscientist wrote: Windowed desktop, IN that case the user by dragging the windows essentially sets a " variable " screen resolutionWe got there at last!

That's completely different to a Windows computer, isn't it?

Now finally. What happens if you launch Templot while using a small container? And then make the container larger?

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: Its decided in exactly the same way as the app decides the initial screen size in Windows , Parallels does not provide a Window " container "But in that case there is no difference between full screen and coherance? :?

An app doesn't decide the screen size in Windows. It gets told by Windows the size of monitor screen.

This is getting silly. In Parallels what is the result of a Windows app setting a variable to Screen.Width?

And is it capable of changing while the app is running?

Because something changed in Philip's screenshot.

regards,

Martin.
Coherence is the removal of Windows Desktop , Window apps open a window based on the apps initialisation of the window ( as in any normal windows App ) 
Full screen , mode 1, causes the Windows Desktop to appear in a MAC window , within that Window the user can treat the desktop as a resizable window and in effect implement different resolutions.

SO in effect the resolution of the monitor is dynamically changed , ( I cant confirm its the resolution thats changes , it could be a scaling factor ) 

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madscientist wrote: When I release the mouse button, the relevant Windows repaint message causes Templot to redraw and properly fill the new window ( in about 1 sec)

Is this what Philip is seeing
Hi Dave,

That's normal Templot behaviour.

That's not the same as Philip's screen.

regards,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote: Windowed desktop, IN that case the user by dragging the windows essentially sets a " variable " screen resolutionWe got there at last!

That's completely different to a Windows computer, isn't it?

Now finally. What happens if you launch Templot while using a small container? And then make the container larger?

regards,

Martin.
OK I duplicated that , its not a mode I use Parallels in 

Yes there is an issue, it looks like Templot does not rescale properly on the resolution being changed and the window being made bigger .in essence the starting window size is maintained and in effect a cropped template is shown even when the desktop is resized 

This behaviour is not evident in other windows apps, I just tested SCARM

Templot doesnt correct the issue , when  Templot is resized , in essence it remains working with the startup screen area 

Note that Templots buttons and menus etc expand , its just the grid drawing area doesnt 

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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Does Templot handle WM_DISPLAYCHANGE messages ? at the application level rather then default windows handlers? 


The default window handlers , ( from memory ) would handle resizing standard windows controls , but any user defined drawing area would have to be resized/redrawn  by the application 

The Same issue occurs in Windows ,  where you dynamically resize the screen , say when you plug in a projector etc 

( Im thinking back to my windows application days , so bear with me !) 

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote:Yes there is an issue, it looks like Templot does not rescale properly on the resolution being changed and the window being made bigger .in essence the starting window size is maintained and in effect a cropped template is shown even when the desktop is resized 

This behaviour is not evident in other windows apps, I just tested SCARM
BINGO.

I knew that had to be the case from Philip's screenshot. He, or his system, enlarged the container after launching Templot.

That's not something that Templot supports or will ever support. It makes my head hurt just thinking about what it would mean. It's like unplugging a 17" monitor and plugging in a 29" monitor instead, right in the middle of doing some timber shoving. :)

If other apps don't show the same effect, it is because they are not using a backdrop bitmap.

Many thanks for your help.

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote:Yes there is an issue, it looks like Templot does not rescale properly on the resolution being changed and the window being made bigger .in essence the starting window size is maintained and in effect a cropped template is shown even when the desktop is resized 

This behaviour is not evident in other windows apps, I just tested SCARM
BINGO.

I knew that had to be the case from Philip's screenshot. He, or his system, enlarged the container after launching Templot.

That's not something that Templot supports or will ever support. It makes my head hurt just thinking about what it would mean. It's like unplugging a 17" monitor and plugging in a 29" monitor instead, right in the middle of doing some timber shoving. :)

If other apps don't show the same effect, it is because they are not using a backdrop bitmap.

Many thanks for your help.

cheers,

Martin.
Its actually a requirement that Windows apps support dynamic resolutions as windows can and does resize resolutions , thats the purpose of the  WM_DISPLAYCHANGE  message 

Philip can  run  Templot in Coherence mode, and it works perfectly as the resolution will not dynamically change under Templot 

 WM_DISPLAYCHANGE  arrived with Windows 2000
remember Windows supports plug and play graphics monitors !!! 

Templot is showing its age :D

anyway it has an acceptable workaround 

dave

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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote:Its actually a requirement that Windows apps support dynamic resolutionsWho says so? Not here it isn't.

Templot creates its own screen-sized work area at start-up. The consequence of changing the size of that while running just don't bear thinking about. The only way would be to dump the data to a file, restart Templot, and then reload the file.

I'm not going there. I have enough other stuff to do. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote:Its actually a requirement that Windows apps support dynamic resolutionsWho says so? Not here it isn't.

Templot creates its own screen-sized work area at start-up. The consequence of changing the size of that while running just don't bear thinking about. The only way would be to dump the data to a file, restart Templot, and then reload the file.

I'm not going there. I have enough other stuff to do. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Of course Martin , the application programmer decides how compliant the application is with the Windows specification.  In general Microsoft lays out the criteria for a compliant application. 
It's not a critism of templot , merely a statement , today any app developer has to inherently handle dynamic resolution changes even if it's simply putting up a dialog box saying you can't handle it !!! 

At the end of the day it's not an issue anyway , Parallels only can do what Windows supports and there are several workarounds that will not cause dynamic resolution issues. 


Philip can simply run templot in full screen mode , or start it in desktop mode with a window big enough , or run it in coherence mode 

As I said at the start , I've yet to find an application that exhibits behaviour peculiar to parallels, i.e. That it didn't also exhibit that behaviour under standalone windows . Wine is a different matter 
Hence buying a Mac to examine Windows compatibility isn't a good idea 



Regards 

Dave 




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Martin Wynne
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Martin Wynne wrote:Templot creates its own screen-sized work area at start-up. The consequence of changing the size of that while running just don't bear thinking about.Hi Dave,

I have been taking a closer look at this, and I believe it is not such a major task as I first feared.

However, I'm not going to do it because I have no way of testing it. I have no means to plug in a different-sized monitor while Templot is running. I suspect that the number of users who would want to do such a thing is so few that it would not be worth the effort anyway.

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:Templot creates its own screen-sized work area at start-up. The consequence of changing the size of that while running just don't bear thinking about.Hi Dave,

I have been taking a closer look at this, and I believe it is not such a major task as I first feared.

However, I'm not going to do it because I have no way of testing it. I have no means to plug in a different-sized monitor while Templot is running. I suspect that the number of users who would want to do such a thing is so few that it would not be worth the effort anyway.

cheers,

Martin.
I agree Martin , there's better fish to fry , you could just capture The relevant WM message and just display a dialog, saying templot doesn't support dynamic resolution changes ! :D

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Ireland



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Hello everyone. I've had time this evening to be looking at this. I run Windows using Parallels on a MacBook Pro. I have it plugged in on my desk to an Apple Cinema Display, while when working away from the desk it is a 13" monitor. Parallels usually resets itself between the two. I cannot remember what I had it set on when I had the problem. I used Grab to select the window, but I tend to run Parallels within a window on the Mac and not in coherence mode - though I did have a look at that the other day.

Tonight I've moved from cinema display to laptop screen and have no problem with ghosting. I have not been able to replicate it, even by making the Parallels window smaller then bigger. I would say that Templot seems to be working very fast, but I have shut down all the apps running on native mac.
regards
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The issue seems to occur only on increases in resolution not decreases afaik
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Philip Griffiths wrote:Tonight I've moved from cinema display to laptop screen and have no problem with ghosting. I have not been able to replicate it, even by making the Parallels window smaller then bigger.Hi Philip,

Thanks for the update. To replicate the problem, do this:

1. start Templot on the small screen.

2. while Templot is running, plug in or switch on the large screen, or tell Parallels to start using it, or whatever you did.

To solve it, quit and restart Templot.

There should be no problem going the other way, i.e. starting on the large screen and then unplugging it or switching it off.

p.s. none of this is related to 218d. It has been the same for 20 years. I'm not able to fix it, because I have no means of testing it here.

cheers,

Martin.

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madscientist wrote:you could just capture The relevant WM message and just display a dialog, saying Templot doesn't support dynamic resolution changes ! :DHi Dave,

To do that, I first need to generate such a WM message to test it, and I have no means of doing that.

If I simply change the monitor resolution while Templot is running, I get the expected message from Windows saying that to apply the changes I must restart Windows.

In 40 years working on Templot it has never occurred to me to try to do such a thing. Not for the first time, I get the feeling I'm on a different planet from everyone else. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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Hi Martin,

The simple solution is to supply a can of DDT with every copy of Templot.

Regards,

Andy

DDT = Don't Do That
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Rob Manchester
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Andrew Barrowman wrote: Hi Martin,

The simple solution is to supply a can of DDT with every copy of Templot.

Regards,

Andy

DDT = Don't Do That
Andy,

DDT = Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane

Kills all known bugs :thumb: and some things it shouldn't............

Rob


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