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                                       Slide chair to stock rail bonding
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 20:47
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi,

Do people on here just use standard superglue to bond slide chairs to the stockrail ? I notice a post advocating Loctite 435 adhesive for this but is this over the top ?

I use cheap cyano/superglue for many modelling tasks but just buy the discount shop type where you get 10 little tubes for a pound. Everytime I buy a better brand it gets used a couple of times and has gone 'off' when I next want it. Tried storing in fridge/putting clingfilm over lid etc but doesn't help with me. Don't want to go to expense of Loctite 435 if that is going to happen.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Rob


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2nd message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 21:40
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Rob,

To be honest, I've just used Butanone to make a bond between the rail and chair and that always seems to suffice.

Ian
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3rd message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 22:40
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Ian Allen wrote: Rob,

To be honest, I've just used Butanone to make a bond between the rail and chair and that always seems to suffice.

Ian
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply. The Butanone won't actually key into the rail will it ? Does it work by melting enough of the chair material to grip round the rail foot ?

Rob


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4th message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 23:07
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rob,

There are two types of "superglue". The cyano types cure in the presence of humidity in the air. As you found, once opened they have a very short shelf life. They are usually transparent, or the rubber-toughened types are black.

The anaerobic types cure in the absence of air and the presence of metal ions. They are typically used for engineering thread-locking, fitting shaft bearings, etc. They are usually red, blue or green, e.g. Loctite 638. There are several grades and brands, having different strengths:

 http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.htm?nodeid=8802627616769

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Strength-Retaining-Compound-Adhesive/dp/B00NY203C6/

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Versachem-PMITW24569-Threadlock-245-Blue/dp/B007VOY874/

Provided you keep the cap on the bottle, and don't get any metal swarf or filings in it, it will keep for a few years. It will also tolerate slight oil contamination of parts, which is good if you are using rail as supplied from the wire-drawers and haven't degreased it.

The snag is that they are not recommended for use on plastics (obviously one of the components needs to be metal, otherwise it won't cure). However, I think that refers to high-performance industrial plastics, I have used them to stick metal to plastic before now (although not specifically rail to chairs. Anyone?)

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 23:36
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Thanks for the usefull info. I have a couple of bottles of thread-lock types in my tool store that I have been using for many years - that explains why they haven't set hard yet. I used to use one of them on the Land Rover suspension nuts and bolts each time it needed a part replacing. I never thought of these as being similar to 'super glues'.

I will dig one out and see if it sticks an exactoscale chair to NS rail. It would be good if somebody have a long term answer to this too.

Rob


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6th message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 23:41
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Rob

I use any superglue to hand. These days it seems to be ZAP, but I've used standard Loctite in the past.

Nigel
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7th message | this message only posted: 17 Apr 2018 23:56
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Thanks Nigel. I opened a bottle of Zap about 2 months ago and used it to add some etched brass detailing parts to a couple of plane kits I was working on. I squeezed the bottle to get rid of excess air when I had finished, screw the top on and put it in the fridge. Just been down to look at it and it is set rock hard :( I am always careful when using superglues not to contaminate the contents so don't know what I am doing wrong. At least the discount shop tubes that cost a pound for 8-10 tubes allow you to get a new tube out each time it goes off.

Rob


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8th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 00:14
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Nah, don't do any of that! Must admit of late I've only used Zap Thick, which I've had for some time and doesn't seem to go off. Seem to remember the thin stuff was more prone to glueing the cap on, but the latest bottle I've got is still OK.

Nigel
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9th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 00:30
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: I squeezed the bottle to get rid of excess air when I had finished, screw the top on and put it in the fridge.Hi Rob,

You are not supposed to do that. The Loctite data sheets say that sealed UNopened bottles should be stored in the fridge for maximum shelf-life. But after opening they should not be stored in the fridge. It is moisture which sets them, they need to be kept somewhere ultra-dry.

"Not damaged by freezing in the unopened container. Optimal shelf life is achieved when unopened container is stored from 36°F to 46°F (2°C to 8°C). After opening, it is not recommended that the product be stored cold or frozen. Once opened, the product is best stored tightly sealed in a dry location away from heat sources or sun exposure. Humidity and high temperatures may decrease shelf life."

Admittedly, I've found that they set solid regardless, especially the thin non-gel versions.

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 07:16
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from:
Raymond
Bexhill-on-sea, United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi,

Do people on here just use standard superglue to bond slide chairs to the stockrail ? I notice a post advocating Loctite 435 adhesive for this but is this over the top ?

Rob

Year ago I tested out various glues.  The best was Butatone, if the joint was properly made then when trying to pull them apart the jaws of the chair would fail before the joint to the timber failed and the chair is a tight enough fit to hold the rail.  This was using wooden timbers, I'd imagine that plastic timbers would make an even more immovable bond.

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11th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 10:12
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Raymond wrote:Year ago I tested out various glues. The best was Butatone, if the joint was properly made then when trying to pull them apart the jaws of the chair would fail before the joint to the timber failed and the chair is a tight enough fit to hold the rail.Hi Raymond,

Rob is asking about gluing the chairs to the rail, not to the timbers.

This is for the slide chairs where there is only one jaw. And other places such as bolted half-chairs in tandems, etc.

The convention is to use superglue for that, but the problem is its short shelf life once opened -- just a few days usually for the (cheapo) low viscosity types. The thicker ones and gels last a bit longer.

cheers,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 12:09
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Using soldered track construction methods, I don't have this issue, although fitting cosmetic chairs later is another issue entirely.
However, with superglues, which are Cyanoacrylate, I understand that they need an air space above the glue in the bottle to retard curing. I always store mine in the door of our fridge and even after opening usually keeps for several months, (admittedly some longer that others) so am not sure what is going wrong. Certainly moisture helps promote curing and one technique I use is to apply the glue to one surface and breath on it before bringing the two surfaces to be bonded together.
Thread lockers are Methlyacrylate and are typically of lower bond strength to allow later separation if required. It tends to be slower to cure than Cyanoacrylate glues. I have two bottles purchased decades ago (Locktite UK) kept in a draw and they still work perfectly.
Regards
Tony.

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13th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 12:48
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from:
David R
Hatfield Heath, United Kingdom



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If you're working in 7mm scale then P1 slide chairs with a hole in the jaw and separate studbolts are available from Off The Rails.  Some rendered images follow:

  

You will, of course, have to drill a series of 1mm diameter holes through each stock rail.  


And find a working tub of "superglue" to stick it all together!


Dave R

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14th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 13:02
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi,

Do people on here just use standard superglue to bond slide chairs to the stockrail ? I notice a post advocating Loctite 435 adhesive for this but is this over the top ?

Hi Rob
I've certainly advocated using Loctite 435, and I'll stick by that (if you'll pardon the pun!)  How do you define "over the top"?  If you want the stock rail stuck to the chair with no risk of coming off, 435 does that.  I've found that pound shop cyanos don't have the same strength and it's often possible to flip the chairs off.  Take your choice!

At work, we use a variety of Loctite cyano glues.  They're kept in a bin in the workshop at normal room temperature where they last for many months - certainly over a year.  It's rare to throw a bottle away from having gone off.  They're not kept in a fridge, and despite my best efforts I find that people don't clean the lids so they're probably not airtight either.

Cheers,

Paul

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15th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 13:06
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Ian Allen wrote: Rob,

To be honest, I've just used Butanone to make a bond between the rail and chair and that always seems to suffice.

Ian
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply. The Butanone won't actually key into the rail will it ? Does it work by melting enough of the chair material to grip round the rail foot ?

Rob

Hi Rob,
Yes, the Butanone softens/melts the plastic and it adheres to the rail. It only requires a dab, as capillary action draws it in. I've also found that the chairs need pushing against the rail rather firmly otherwise they don't necessarily sit in place properly.

Ian 

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16th message | this message only posted: 18 Apr 2018 19:26
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Thanks to all for the replies. Will test out some of the ideas soon.

Rob


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17th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2018 16:27
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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I have just received a delivery from Off the Rails via Shapeways, first impression is they are quite stunning


Two views of the check chairs for 32 mm gauge



These A size switch chairs are something else, sadly as they are in a clear material the detail will not be seen at its best until painted


Second view at an angle



The first two sets of chairs are standard, followed by 3 sets of plain slide chairs followed by the first of 6 PL chairs.Keys and bolts in the centre



5 more sets of PL chairs (or were the first two still P chairs) then 4 bridge chairs



I can only assume these last 2 photos are I can only assume fixings for tie rods, at a bit of a loss as to what goes where especially those with diagonal rods attached



My only regret being that I have not ordered a few other bits

Sadly whilst I am OK on the building side, my knowledge of the prototype is sadly ammiss and whilst proficient with the Exactoscale parts, these differ slightly. Homework needed  

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18th message | this message only posted: 20 Apr 2018 18:19
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi John,

I got my package from Shapeways today too :) I backed out of ordering a whole bunch of stuff and just got some 1.5mm check rail chairs :( They do look nice though. It will be interesting to see how they fit with Exactoscale bits.

I wonder why they don't mould them in a colour ? Like a sort of rusty cast iron shade although just plain brown would be fine. It would be much easier to see the detail.

Rob


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19th message | this message only posted: 21 Apr 2018 09:14
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Rob

I did think about giving them a quick spray with primer, but was scared that it might make the gaps which the rail slides into too narrow to slide the rail through, David has kindly given me a few tips about using this material, one being that it is quite brittle

Any tips from members who have used these products would be very helpful, especially when it comes to fitting chairs with separate keys
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20th message | this message only posted: 21 Apr 2018 19:01
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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John,

I spray my C&L/Exactosclae 7mm chairs before glueing them to the sleepers/timber so would hope that I can continue to do the same with Dave's chairs. I use rust primer from MIG Jimenez which is sold for military modelling and then add some shading and texture with other colours. The chairs are stuck onto double sided tape on a piece of cardboard or wood - I don't like spraying them on the sprues but you could do that as long as you remember to touch up the sprue attachment gate afterwards. If you spray mainly from either side of the chair with a narrow spray pattern and don't point the airbrush in towards the innards of the chair not much paint gets inside so fingers crossed in will be OK. I heard that the material is slightly brittle so some care needed there.

I bet you get to use the chairs before me, as usual I have too many things going on at once :) Post some pics when you do.

Rob

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21st message | this message only posted: 21 Apr 2018 22:37
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: I wonder why they don't mould them in a colour ? Like a sort of rusty cast iron shade although just plain brown would be fine. It would be much easier to see the detail.
Hi Rob,

They are printed in layers rather than molded. The polymer is translucent so that it can be cured with UV light.

Probably far more than you want to know at
https://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail-plastic

Cheers!
Andy



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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Rob

I am quite conversant with the positions and styles of the Exactoscale chairs, the Off The Rails chairs are more detailed and I just need to get my head around the third slide chair onwards, plus the tie rod fixings and the method of fixing the chairs with keys whilst maintaining the gauge.
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23rd message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 10:17
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JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Do people on here just use standard superglue to bond slide chairs to the stockrail ? I notice a post advocating Loctite 435 adhesive for this but is this over the top ?

As the one who advocated 435, I ought to perhaps respond.

Firstly, the switch area of model pointwork is vitally important - to spend 10 minutes at any "finescale" exhibition is to realise just how poor the hobby performs in this area - regardless of (or perhaps because of) the methods we use.

In the real thing, the rail is secured in position using substantial bolts which we cannot replicate in model form - any weakness in the this area must result in the rail going under gauge - just at the exact place where it does the most damage.

My particular method of track building required a "glued" method of securing the rail to the chairs and I did a very extensive search to find a glue suitable for the job. This means looking at manufacturers data sheets - something which most modellers do not trouble themselves with.  In the case of 435, it is "specifically formulated for bonding thermoplastics to metals when used with the activator 7455." [my italics] and to have a "high peel strength".  I should add that the reinforced (black) version is actually better, but it has less general applicability - and is expensive! 

By contrast, just a cursory reading of the label on the average "cheap cyano/superglue" will tell us that it is NOT suitable for such a joint.   Nor is solvent - which just plain does not form a bond.

My advice would be that if anyone cannot afford / cannot be bothered to use the solution which the manufacturers recommend, then a strategically placed rivet or two is by far the best solution - ineffective gluing is a route to disaster - perhaps not immediately, but it is just a matter of time before the derailments start and at that stage, fixing it is near impossible.

I see pre-painting mentioned above - remember that if you glue to paint, the resulting bond can be no better that that of the paint - so you might as well forget the glue and use the paint as a fixing.

I have to say that as a breed, we modellers are unbelievably arrogant when it comes to ignoring manufacturers recommendations - and then moan when the job fails. How many people here have actually bothered to download a data sheet to understand the limitations of a particular product or process? 

But why should I be surprised - it seems to me that many "average modellers" can't even be bothered to learn to solder properly - let alone use adhesives which are much more difficult technically. 

Lest that sounds like a rant at others, let me say I am not immune either - in these pages some while ago, I stated that I used dichloro-methyl as a solvent for bonding chairs to wooden sleepers and got into a row with someone who told me it would not work - my answer being "it works for me".  Well he was right and I was wrong - it did "work" (for a while) - then one by one, the joints failed. Luckily, they can be easily fixed - with a dab of what I should have used in the first place.  Had I followed my own advice and looked at a data sheet, I would have discovered it could never have possibly worked.

Worse, that post probably still exists, and now others might take my word for it and find out the hard way - such are the perils of "Learn by forum"!

Best wishes,

Howard

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24th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 10:40
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Howard,

Just to add that Rob's original question was not about the efficacy of 435, but shelf-life after opening.

All cyanos seem to fail in this regard, even following the data sheet advice not to keep it in the fridge after opening.

It does seem to depend on local climate conditions, requiring ultra-dry conditions to remain usable.

My preference for fixing metal to plastic would be a 2-part epoxy.

cheers,

Martin.

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25th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 11:14
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JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Martin,

Indeed so, but the point I quoted was the was the one I was addressing.

The unavoidable fact is - all cyanoacrylates have a shelf life - even if un-opened - you can buy this stuff VERY cheaply if short-dated! The data sheet is very specific about storage after opening - particularly about maintaining an air hole. Something which tend to ignore, letting the stuff build-up on the nozzle.

Rob's point that a "general" cyano gets used up before it goes off can be turned round to say that a "proper" one can also be used for other jobs but it will do the difficult jobs better. But I would never use a cheap glue for a difficult job just because it is cheap - but that is a personal choice.

Epoxy is also usually my preference but are you sure it is actually better in this case? In the trial I did, it was also prone to failing - probably because of the difficulty of proper preparation which (I think) the use of the 7455 activator helps to mitigate when using the 435. Without the activator, 435 is no better than anything else.

I should also mention that there is a range of "Loctite equivalents" available which have exactly the same specifications but are about half the price.

Although I have had no issues to date (five years and three exhibitions) I might be tempted to stick rivets here next time!! The solder has no shelf life!

Best wishes,

Howard

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26th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 11:51
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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JFS wrote: Epoxy is also usually my preference but are you sure it is actually better in this case?Hi Howard,

One reason for preferring epoxy for most jobs is that it is gap-filling, an area where many other adhesives fail, requiring a very thin joint line to work. We have seen in some close-up photos recently that the fit of the chairs to the rail section is far from perfect.

What's puzzling me a little is why the need for an ultra-strong life-long bond? I had thought that the main reason for attaching the slide chairs with adhesive was to stop the timbers falling off or losing alignment between bench assembly and track-laying.

Once the track is laid there doesn't seem to me to be any great need for a strong fix between the slide chairs and the stock rail (for models). The natural tendency of any track is to go wide-to-gauge under traffic, there is nothing in the wheel to pull it narrow. So providing the slide chairs are in the right place and firmly attached to the timber, they can restrain the rail without any obvious need for a strong (or any) fix to the rail over the short length of the slide chairs.

This does assume of course that some care is taken in making the set to achieve a stock rail which lies unsupported in the correct position before fixing. I wrote some notes about making the set here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1

You mentioned switches going under-gauge, but this is surely only likely if an adequate set was not provided in the first place?

If they go under-gauge because of thermal expansion, there is no plastic chair or adhesive on earth which will restrain them, the solution is a shorter length of rail and/or adequate expansion gaps.

cheers,

Martin.  

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27th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 12:31
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Hi Howard

Think you're over-stating things. Problems with track which is subject to a wide range of temperatures are well-known, and stock rail isn't free of them; one solution might be building in a smidgen of gauge widening where appropriate. With layouts in a fairly stable temperature environment, then any problems are more likely to be due to the skill with which the track was built in the first place.

On my current layout, which is home based, initially I didn't bother using anything to fix the stock rail to the slide chairs. I carefully curved the stock rail to the required profile, and while holding it in place slid in slide chairs to nestle against it. The switch rails were then specifically curved to ensure that gauge was at least that required. I haven't had any problems. With later points I did add a drop of superglue, probably Loctite standard, to the slide chairs; I don't know if it worked because I still haven't had any problems. Incidentally, that glue will work with plastic, if allowed long enough to cure.

Exhibition layouts are prone to problems because of the environment, but many do actually work OK. If there are problems, it would take a detailed examination of the layout in question to determine that it was due to a misplace stock rail.

For the record, the one problem area I have encountered was when painting the rails, and finding that the thickness of the paint on the inside of the rail head was thick enough to reduce gauge! Nobody mentions that.

Cheers
Nigel

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28th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 14:30
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from:
JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Chaps,

I agree Martin that there are issues with a poor fit of running chairs, but I did not come across any issue with slide chairs - mine were quite happy to grip the rail unaided - only under that condition can cyano ever work - whatever its pedigree. If that condition does not exists, better to use rivets and solder.

I think the cause of much grief with rails moving is the one thing neither of you have mentioned: track cleaning - which most of us have to undertake from time to time, and which places a most unfair loading on the rail fastenings. It is also in my experience, the cause of many a high rail joint as the rail gradually stretches over the years. Given the brutality I have seen used on this process during many an exhibition set-up / Sunday start-up it is hardly surprising - and yes, I am talking about some well-known layouts!

We are agreed that problems like expansion and damage through moving the layouts around require other mitigations.

The particular problems in the area of slide chairs is that the physical shape of the chairs stops the rail going wide to gauge but there is absolutely nothing to stop it moving inwards - any thing which subjects the rails to strain will result therefore in inward - but never outward - movement.

I am glad to hear that you had no issues with your method Nigel, but it did not work for me on my previous layout - when you push the chairs up to the rail you have no way of knowing that you did not nudge the rail inwards by a tiny amount with the first chair and then a tiny bit more with the second and then... But never mind; everything runs fine - for the first half dozen years...

As I build my track in situ, the question of removing it from a template (which tends to ruin it!) did not arise.

But let me be clear that I am not dying in any ditch for Loctite - nor any other glue!!! I only wanted to say that if glue MUST be used, it had better be a fit for purpose one! A glue not fit for purpose is not worth using - the only thing it is doing is making the builder feel better

I do not particularly like the way I "solved" this issue - it was merely the least-worst I could come up with at the time. Having seen plenty of other people scratching there heads as to why their track is starting to cause problems after years of being fine, I live in fear that mine will one day go that route.

Perhaps my experience of "demonstrating" track building at a dozen or two exhibitions has brought me into contact with too many stories of disasters! And, yes, most of them in the area of switches...

As an example, perhaps I could relate the experience of a friend with a well know exhibition layout. The track had been built, many years ago using "ply and rivet" and "cosmetic" chairs added later. After all had been fine for a couple of dozen years, a particular double slip started with derailments at the switches. A quick check showed the dreaded under gauge. What had happened was that when fitting the chairs, much of the soldered joint had been ground away. What remained gradually failed over the years and then there was nothing to stop the problem.

Best wishes,

Howard
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29th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 19:40
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin, Nigel, Andrew, Howard,

Phew. I didn't think the simple question I posed would have generated so much comment :)

Howard is quite right in suggesting the 'fit for purpose' glue. Martin is quite right in commenting that the stock rail to slide chair 'bond' shouldn't be under much pressure forcing it away from the chair too. The use of through bolts ( as in the prototype ) is one that I will seek to include in 7mm turnouts but a bit OTT for 4mm I think.

Rob


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30th message | this message only posted: 22 Apr 2018 19:44
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from:
JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Phew. I didn't think the simple question I posed would have generated so much comment :)
Only the best questions do that :thumb:

Best wishes,

Howard

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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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JFS wrote: Rob Manchester wrote:
Phew. I didn't think the simple question I posed would have generated so much comment :)
Only the best questions do that :thumb:

Best wishes,

Howard
Howard,
But the best question can be the most simple or the most complicated. Where would we be if every question had a simple answer :D

Rob


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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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I've got this problem with slide chairs not sticking to the rail! I've made the pointwork on templates then carefully lifted them up for transport to the club, but not matter what, a couple of the slide chairs are always not stuck to the rail!

I've just tried glueing the chairs to the rail before glueing the chairs to the sleepers with the same sort of result. I wonder if degreasing the rail would help? I'v even used rather heavy point blade filing jigs to try to add weight while the glue was setting, but that doesn't make any difference either! I think the club must be getting fed u with me promising pointwork then not showing up with it.
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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I agree with Martin , personally I glue the slide chairs simply to facilitate transport of the point from the template building area to the layout . I’ve never experienced gauge narrowing subsequently, well, gauge narrowing that would have in anyway been prevented by one sided glued slide chair, that is.

Recently I’ve used cyano which comes with a little applicator brush , that seems to last much longer.

My main issue has been the Rocket brand of cyano, where the cap gets glued to the nozzle and I can’t get at the perfectly good glue inside without cutting up the bottle !

Dave
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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In my experience even the most expensive cyanos do not work as well as we are led to believe. I find Gorilla super glue to work as well as anything. Plenty of butonone helps as well.

I try to ensure that things don't come adrift in transit. Glue slide chairs to rail and then timbers
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35th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2018 08:25
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from:
Graham Idle
Redhill, Surrey, United Kingdom



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Hi, I can highly recommend Hafixs. I've been using it for several years, keep it in the fridge and never replace the cap without cleaning the spout with a bit of tissue. Sticks almost anything to anything.
Hope this helps.

Graham

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36th message | this message only posted: 15 Jun 2018 08:58
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from:
JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Stephen Freeman wrote: In my experience even the most expensive cyanos do not work as well as we are led to believe. I find Gorilla super glue to work as well as anything. Plenty of butonone helps as well.
I agree that price is no guide at all, but I also think poor results are largely because we do not use them for their intended purpose - as a generality, modellers are hopeless at following instructions / reading specifications / using within limits etc. 

As an example, I recently watched a colleague "soldering" - to be frank, it was a bit of a mess.  When I pointed out that he had not done any cleaning, (and was not using the best flux and his iron was too small) he said "Well it looked clean already..."  That same colleague proclaims "All super-glues are useless"!  I don't think he would be unique!

I used Loctite 435 for this, not because it is pricey (which is is) but because:

1. it is specified for thermo-plastic to metal joints
2. it is formulated to give high peel-strength
3. It comes with very clear and specific instructions on how to make it work - including the use of an "activator" spray.

Guess what - if you have a close fitting joint, and you do as it says - particularly cleaning and degreasing the rail and using the activator on the plastic -  you get a perfect result.  Fail on either of those things and the whole job fails!

I am sure there are other and possibly better solutions (the rubber-reinforced version for example), and certainly other and cheaper makes with equivalent versions - but for sure "general purpose" glues and "generally" only good for "general" jobs.

That said, to back up Graham, I recently bought a bottle of Hafixs and I have found it very good - though I have not used it for this job.

Best Wishes,





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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Generally the slide chair will break before the joint when using gorilla if force is applied. Can't ask for more really
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hello,

Howard's post makes a lot of sense ( as usual ) as the way in which a product is handled and used is just as important as the qualities of the product itself in my view.

As with many products these days I wonder how many of the adhesive ' sales companies' actually make the glue themselves ? I think Loctite do but as for others, who knows. The bottle the Hafix adhesive comes in looks the same as the ones my local discount bazzar sells for £1.75 even down to the colour of the screw top. I wonder how similar the contents are ?

Rob

P.S. This glue appears to be popular here . They have sold a lot of bottles of it. Their store carries many adhesives including one that claims to stick maggots together :?

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