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                                       Fishbolt holes in check rails - defective timbers
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 12 May 2018 23:32
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Note fish-bolt holes in end of check rail

Hi Martin,

Paying attention as always I noticed your note for me :) relating to the fishplate holes. Would you care to explain the existence of the holes in this position ? Re-use of old/worn running rails would seem to be the only reason I can think of and then they would only appear in a small number of check rails. If that is the case you would think that the ends of old running rails would have been cut off prior to re-use as that part of the rail would be subject to the most wear. I guess it wouldn't actually matter that the rail head was worn down as when functioning as check rails there isn't any contact with the rail top surface.

Rob


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2nd message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 01:26
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Would you care to explain the existence of the holes in this position? Re-use of old/worn running rails would seem to be the only reason I can think of and then they would only appear in a small number of check rails.Hi Rob,

Check rails were often cut from recovered running rail for economy. Not necessarily excessively worn -- rail was cascaded down the system at renewals. Serviceable rail from main lines being re-used on secondary and branch lines, worn rail from there being used for sidings and yards. The former outside face of the rail would be used for the checking face, in case of any side wear on the former gauge face. Check rails were always set vertical, with solid wooden keys rather than spring steel keys.

In this case GWR crossings have 11ft-6in, 14ft or 16ft check* rails, and older GWR rails would have been 44ft-6in long. So from such a rail you might cut 3 check rails -- 2 off 14ft and 1 off 16ft. And 2 of them would have fish-bolt holes in one end. So that's 2 out of 3, not a "small number". If you look round some pointwork, you find that typically about 50% of the check rails have fish-bolt holes in one end. See for example the photo posted here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1961&forum_id=1#p12812

There's no reason to cut off the holed end, because it will form the flared end of the check rail, which in normal conditions sees almost no use. And doing so might lose you one check rail out of the available rail length.

*called guard rails on the GWR.

Bolt holes in the end of check rails are seldom modelled, but it's a detail worth adding. It's difficult to drill small enough holes (1.1/8" dia) in 4mm scale = 0.38mm dia, but a tiny dot of black paint looks the part.

Remember not to do both ends of the same check rail. :)

cheers,

Martin.   

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3rd message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 19:56
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Many thanks for the info. I will certainly try to remember some holes in my checkrails - on the 7mm scale ones at least. At least NS is easier to drill than steel :)

Thanks too for the link to the check rail post. What is the easy way to find Wally's images in the Gallery ? The 'Insert existing image from Gallery' only allows me to put mine in a new post.

Rob



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4th message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 20:04
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:What is the easy way to find Wally's images in the Gallery?Hi Rob,

Go to the gallery:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery_view.php?display=ALL#gallery_top

and click the letter W.

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 20:39
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin,

Yes, I realised you had an A-Z index in the gallery for finding members pics but that wasn't quite what I asked. When I am composing a post and you click 'Insert existing image from Gallery' Templot only shows my pictures in the Gallery. There isn't an A-Z index to find other peoples uploaded images to re-post in my post :? I am assuming that protocol isn't being broken by doing this ?

I have had issues with pasting images previously ( and you shouted at me :( ) so didn't want to just copy it from the gallery.

Rob


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6th message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 20:54
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Rob,

I can't believe I shouted at you. Surely not? :)

re protocol, the small print at the bottom of every page of Templot Club is:

"Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so."

There is no mechanism to see other members' images while posting. To include them you must display them in the gallery in a separate browser tab, right click on the displayed image, copy the image location, and then insert it in your post using the insert image button:

  

(or by typing BBcode img tags directly)

in the same way as inserting images from other web sites.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 13 May 2018 21:33
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Rob,

I can't believe I shouted at you. Surely not? :)
Martin,
But at least I didn't commit the deadly sin of installing Templot in the wrong folder or filling my storage box with duplicate templates :D Thanks for the info, I have nearly forgotten what I was going to ask about Wally's image. Anyway....


I never thought much about rail joints occuring in a section of rail that was checked ( as above ). Presumably you would have to remove the checkrail to replace the fishplate bolts ? Roughly when were safety check blocks introduced on check rails rather than just having the running rails/check rails secured in the chair by keys ?

Does the influence of the rail joint affect the central securring bolt holding the checkrail to the running rail. Wally's shot shows a small plate with two holes one of which is not used.

Would the condition of any of the timbers in this shot have given justification for replacement in the days when tracks were inspected on a regular basis ? One of my planned 7mm cameo layouts will have well aged track and I need to get my head round the level of wear/ageing to use on the timber parts.

And ( lastly :roll: ) when was the jointing of two timbers end-to-end with metal plates introduced. The traditional method would have been a half-lap joing that was bolted through according to the BRT bible.

Thanks as always.
Rob


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8th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 07:37
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from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Rob,

I can't believe I shouted at you. Surely not? :)
Martin,
But at least I didn't commit the deadly sin of installing Templot in the wrong folder or filling my storage box with duplicate templates :D Thanks for the info, I have nearly forgotten what I was going to ask about Wally's image. Anyway....


I never thought much about rail joints occuring in a section of rail that was checked ( as above ). Presumably you would have to remove the checkrail to replace the fishplate bolts ? Roughly when were safety check blocks introduced on check rails rather than just having the running rails/check rails secured in the chair by keys ?

Does the influence of the rail joint affect the central securring bolt holding the checkrail to the running rail. Wally's shot shows a small plate with two holes one of which is not used.

Would the condition of any of the timbers in this shot have given justification for replacement in the days when tracks were inspected on a regular basis ? One of my planned 7mm cameo layouts will have well aged track and I need to get my head round the level of wear/ageing to use on the timber parts.

And ( lastly :roll: ) when was the jointing of two timbers end-to-end with metal plates introduced. The traditional method would have been a half-lap joing that was bolted through according to the BRT bible.

Thanks as always.
Rob


Wally's photo was taken at Cranmore on the ESR. Yes you do need to remove the check rail to remove the fishplate. I can't remember the reason for the two hole "washer / spacer".  The spliced timbers were, half lapped and a fishplate was chair screwed to secure the splice. We replaced all that timber work in 2006, I can't believe it was that long ago and we put in one piece timbering and so the spliced timbers have gone.

Phil 

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9th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 10:34
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:I never thought much about rail joints occurring in a section of rail that was checked. Presumably you would have to remove the check rail to replace the fishplate bolts? Roughly when were safety check blocks introduced on check rails rather than just having the running rails/check rails secured in the chair by keys?Hi Rob,

Rail joints frequently occur behind check rails. In an ordinary crossover across 6ft way it is very often inevitable if the vee splice rails are of standard length. Templot marks such rail joints:



Yes as Phil says it is necessary to remove the check rail to gain access to the fishplates and bolts.

The presence or otherwise of spacer blocks and bolts in check rails (usually 2 per check rail) depends on the company and period. They were not part of the original REA specification, but seem to have arrived following their necessary use in FB track introduced in the 1950s. On the other hand, they are shown on some pre-group drawings, e.g. NER.

Not used on the GWR, see no spacer blocks here (and the check rail one timber further forward than REA for GWR 14ft checks - a practice which was later changed to match REA):



Would the condition of any of the timbers in Wally's shot have given justification for replacement in the days when tracks were inspected on a regular basis ? One of my planned 7mm cameo layouts will have well aged track and I need to get my head round the level of wear/ageing to use on the timber parts.They wouldn't be acceptable in the fast line of the WCML. On secondary and branch running lines, the gang would replace them when the chair screws would no longer hold or remain tight, or the timber was so split that it was clearly not capable of holding the rails to gauge.

In loops, sidings and yards they would likely need to be much worse before being replaced. A lot depends on how many? A single sleeper may be allowed to remain for a while, but several in a row would get replaced.

At the far end of a little-used siding the sleepers may never get replaced, gently rotting back to nature as the decades passed.

BRT has a whole chapter on inspection and maintenance, and another on renewals. Page 74 of BRT3 has some notes about the life of sleepers and typical defects.

when was the jointing of two timbers end-to-end with metal plates introduced. The traditional method would have been a half-lap joint that was bolted through according to the BRT bible.The snag with a half-lap splice is that it destroys the original creosote protection. Some creosote would be sloshed in the joint, but it wouldn't penetrate as far as the original hot pressurized creosoting. And unless the splice is made a very close fit, it is likely to leave crevices for water to lie. Also of course it needs planning in advance. A simple metal plate (usually an old fishplate) might be used to link the ends of timbers after the event, if there is evidence of relative movement.

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 21:47
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Thanks Phil, first hand reports are always useful.

Thanks Martin, I have seen turnouts with the check ( guard ) rails further forward. I didn't know it was actully policy in some districts to have them that way. All the other info is most useful - thanks.

Rob


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11th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 22:48
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin,

Is it worth having copies of more than 1 edition of BRT ? You quoted P74 of the 3rd edition in your reply earlier. P74 of my 1956 Blue copy is right in the middle of discussing chairs and blocks for BH crossing work so there is obviously a difference in layout between the editions. I had assumed that later editions just contained less BH and more FB related information.

Have you come across this Book and is it useful ?

Rob


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12th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 23:20
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:Have you come across this Book and is it useful ?Hi Rob,

It's the BH section from BRT7. I'm not convinced it will be much help with historical practice, but I have now ordered a copy. I'm concerned to update Templot to allow a shift between chair centres and timber centres, in the light of Richard's comments about "A" timbers.

Here's a video:



Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 23:43
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Thanks. I always like a book with pictures of trackwork. If it was £20 then maybe I would order it but at £40+ maybe not.

I just found a copy of BRT5 ( 1979 ) on ebay for £13.00 inc p&p which I have added to my collection :) The slip cover design is cool.

Rob


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14th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2018 23:51
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: You quoted P74 of the 3rd edition in your reply earlier.Hi Rob,

See "Sleepers, Life of" in the index to other editions.

cheers,

Martin.

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15th message | this message only posted: 15 May 2018 00:00
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin,

:thumb: Page 62. now how do I put some 7mm fungi on my sleepers ?

Rob


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16th message | this message only posted: 15 May 2018 06:35
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richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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There's also the PWI "British Railway Track Bullhead Supplement", which, as it says "Being extracts from the first and second editions of..." British Railways Track.

When I picked my copy up from PWI, some years ago now, it was only 12UKP.
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17th message | this message only posted: 15 May 2018 18:12
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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I wonder if you would want to go to these lengths for distressed sleepers.



These sleepers are or rather were 40 plus years old when I took the picture in 2008. What I found most concerning was that they were in a line where EMUs thundered over them at 70mph.

I have a picture taken of the same spot in 1967 showing the same sleepering arrangement i.e. concrete sleepers on one track and timber sleepers on the other shortly after the rails were changed to flat bottom.
Regards
Tony.

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18th message | this message only posted: 15 May 2018 18:43
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Tony,
Thanks for the pics. It is a wonder that the track was used in that condition, I wonder what the track inspection team wrote in the report while checking this length !

Rob


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19th message | this message only posted: 16 May 2018 13:55
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote:It's the BH section from BRT7. I'm not convinced it will be much help with historical practice, but I have now ordered a copy.Book now arrived. Excellent by-return mail order service from the PWI.

The first impression is that for £36 the reproduction of the photos is extremely poor, and many of them have been enlarged beyond what the original can stand. They are mostly from London Underground, which is now the main user of new bullhead track.

However, I didn't get it for the photos. There is certainly a mass of information there, but little seems new. It is a strange hybrid of the original texts from the early editions of BRT and a modern re-writing for present-day requirements. The GWR/BR(W) designs are covered in much more detail than in the earlier editions, which mostly covered only the REA designs (called SRE designs in this book - Standard Railway Equipment).

I will write a bit more about this book when I have had a day or two to read it properly.

I would have preferred a proper stitched binding and hard covers, as the earlier books. The perfect-bound paperback format is not ideal for nearly 300 pages, making it difficult to open flat. 

regards,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 20 Jun 2018 23:27
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Some more rotting timbers to add to Tony's pictures - taken at Llandudno in 2012 :)







And the buffers needed a dab of paint....



But the signal gantry was in better condition....



Rob


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