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                                       progress report - chairs in the output
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121st message | this message only posted: 23 Dec 2018 16:14
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:

The bulldozer flap thingy needs to be sprung or weighted down into position, and be pushed back up against the bed while printing.

Hi Martin,

I don't know if it would work on your printer, but on mine it might be possible to mound a fixed beam just above the bed. To knock the print off just drive the bed to run the print into the beam? Not sure if that work or not.

Cheers,
Andy

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122nd message | this message only posted: 23 Dec 2018 17:47
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John Durbetaki
Gaston, Oregon USA



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Would the shearing forces be such that the driving forces of the XY motors or their supports might be whacked out of calibration or worse?

Since you thought about printing the timbers one at a time, could you print with a compressed spacing (it looks from the image you could get a timber within the space between timbers, and maybe tighten it up more. Since they are singles anyway, cut them apart and lay them on the paper template. That way, you can fill the printer bed with prints and then get them all off at the end. It would seem markings on the timbers would be needed to identify what goes where...

Just a thought...

John
Andrew Barrowman wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:

The bulldozer flap thingy needs to be sprung or weighted down into position, and be pushed back up against the bed while printing.

Hi Martin,

I don't know if it would work on your printer, but on mine it might be possible to mound a fixed beam just above the bed. To knock the print off just drive the bed to run the print into the beam? Not sure if that work or not.

Cheers,
Andy


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123rd message | this message only posted: 23 Dec 2018 19:22
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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John Durbetaki wrote: Would the shearing forces be such that the driving forces of the XY motors or their supports might be whacked out of calibration or worse? Just a thought...
Andrew Barrowman wrote:I don't know if it would work on your printer, but on mine it might be possible to mound a fixed beam just above the bed. To knock the print off just drive the bed to run the print into the beam? Not sure if that work or not.
Hi Andy, John,

Thanks.

A fixed beam won't work on the BIBO printer because the only bed movement available is the Z drive. The X and Y drives are on the extruder head in the top of the case. The bed drops as the work proceeds.

Here is what I had in mind, if you can call it a mind: :)



A hinged weighted or sprung flap attached to the head and running against the bed. During printing of a single timber, it would be off to the left of the work. Then by driving the extruder head to the right, the timber would be bulldozed off the bed into the bottom of the case. There is plenty of space there. 

It's true that the stepper motors see a design load of near zero. The Z stepper sees only the geared-down weight of the bed assembly, and the X,Y steppers see only the flexibility restriction of the cables and filament feed.

But the construction seems robust enough to withstand a smallish additional load at lowish speed. In the BIBO the X Home position is conveniently on the right, with the nozzles then clear of the bed. So sending the X drive home will not only bulldoze the timber off the bed, any lost calibration of the X drive will be reset when the head hits the Home limit switch. Ready to move back left for the next timber. Even if some X calibration is lost, it wouldn't affect the printing of a single timber, it would simply take place at a different location on the bed.   

Since you thought about printing the timbers one at a time, could you print with a compressed spacing (it looks from the image you could get a timber within the space between timbers, and maybe tighten it up more. Since they are singles anyway, cut them apart and lay them on the paper template. That way, you can fill the printer bed with prints and then get them all off at the end.
Yes, I've been thinking along such lines. Once you decide to print individual timbers to be used on a paper template there are several options. Andy suggested printing only a thin timber to be attached to ply or card or whatever full timbers. That would reduce printing time considerably. I did some tests, and I can effectively print a "timber" only 0.3mm (12 thou) thick, although 0.5mm (20 thou) might be more sensible. (My current tests are 1.9mm thick. Peco 0 gauge track has timbers 3.3mm thick.)

Lots of ideas to try. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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124th message | this message only posted: 23 Dec 2018 20:14
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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p.s. I have just tested the force available on the X and Y drives when going Home. It is considerable, I can't stop them with reasonable hand force. I wouldn't want to get a finger trapped in there. :(

Martin.

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125th message | this message only posted: 24 Dec 2018 06:12
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Hi all,

It might be a week or two before I can get around to actually setting up the machine, with Christmas and current projects that need completion first.
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126th message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 01:34
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Getting a bit closer. The central rib on the inner jaw is now distinct, and there is now no flashing between the screw heads. I also modified the outer jaw and key to better match the underscale Peco pretend-bullhead section, and made it a closer fit in the chair (7mm scale / 0 gauge):







In theory you make one change at a time. So I made four. :)

1. retraction increased from 0.25mm to 1mm.

2. Z-hopping over perimeters switched on, and set at 0.2mm lift (for 0.05mm layers).

3. infill overlap on perimeters reduced from 15% to 5%.

4. printing order changed to print infill before the perimeter around it.

I don't know which of these was the more important, but I suspect 4. was the most significant in improving the definition. Whatever, I am now quite pleased with the results, which compare well alongside injection-moulded flexi-track (Peco 0 gauge).

It's now time to see what can be done in 4mm scale. :?

cheers,

Martin.

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127th message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 14:28
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,
Happy Boxing Day :) Looking quite good I must say, all your work is starting to bear fruit.

Do you have any C&L O gauge rail ? Happy to post you a couple of short lengths tomorrow if you want to try a different profile.

Rob


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128th message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 21:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Do you have any C&L O gauge rail ? Happy to post you a couple of short lengths tomorrow if you want to try a different profile.Hi Rob,

Many thanks for the offer, but I do have some C&L code 125 bullhead rail. I just need to move some boxes to get at it. The Peco rail was easier to find to hand. :)

Somewhere I also have some original Slaters code 131 bullhead, which is the correct scale size for BS-95R rail in 7mm scale. Slaters nowadays are denying they ever supplied such a thing, despite the fact that it is specifically mentioned in their 7mm trackbuilding handbook. :? Presumably admitting it would mean acknowledging that their current code 125 rail is underscale. Even S7 modellers seem to be using it, and Karlgarin are supplying it too.

If you have some 0 gauge bullhead it would be worth measuring it.

cheers,

Martin.

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129th message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 21:44
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote:
If you have some 0 gauge bullhead it would be worth measuring it.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,
I just measured my stocks of O scale bullhead, not sure it was worth it though :?

All I have is C&L and some rail supplied by Marcway years ago. Both measure 0.125" height and a scale 2.75" head width as expected. The profile is very similar except the Marcway rail appears to have a slightly wider radius between the foot and web.

I did however also find some Peco 'ready made' switch blade sets. The height is the same as above but the head is a bit skiny, scaling out at around 2.6" wide. As I think you pointed out the foot is very under fed.

I remember the Slaters track system and I had the book too once upon a time. The late Bill Hudson used to run the shop at the Matlock museum. I hadn't realised that Slaters still supplied the track parts range. The rail they list is a lot cheaper than the C&L price although Slaters may get a shock if they have to have a new batch done.

Rob


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130th message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 21:47
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
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Martin Wynne wrote: Getting a bit closer. The central rib on the inner jaw is now distinct, and there is now no flashing between the screw heads. I also modified the outer jaw and key to better match the underscale Peco pretend-bullhead section, and made it a closer fit in the chair (7mm scale / 0 gauge):







In theory you make one change at a time. So I made four. :)

1. retraction increased from 0.25mm to 1mm.

2. Z-hopping over perimeters switched on, and set at 0.2mm lift (for 0.05mm layers).

3. infill overlap on perimeters reduced from 15% to 5%.

4. printing order changed to print infill before the perimeter around it.

I don't know which of these was the more important, but I suspect 4. was the most significant in improving the definition. Whatever, I am now quite pleased with the results, which compare well alongside injection-moulded flexi-track (Peco 0 gauge).

It's now time to see what can be done in 4mm scale. :?

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

That's really excellent. You might try eliminating the Z hopping to reduce the print time. I've tried Z hopping but other than slowing things down I didn't see any difference.

Did you use Slic3r?

How long does it take to print the four chairs?

Cheers,
Andy

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131st message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 22:49
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Barrowman wrote:That's really excellent. You might try eliminating the Z hopping to reduce the print time. I've tried Z hopping but other than slowing things down I didn't see any difference.

Did you use Slic3r?

How long does it take to print the four chairs?
Thanks Andy,

Yes, Slic3r. It seems to be more capable than Cura, which was the default supplied with the printer. I'm reading that Simplify3D is even better, but at $150 it's a lot more than free. :(

Printing the 4 chairs (after printing the timbers) takes about 16 minutes at the speeds I'm currently using. So 4 minutes per chair. A typical turnout has around 100 chairs, so that's around 7 hours to print the chairs on a typical 0 gauge turnout. I might be able to speed it up a bit, but I didn't notice adding the Z-hopping making much difference (it might do in 4mm with smaller areas). Changing from 0.05mm layers to 0.1mm would obviously make a big difference, but may lose some of the definition. There is still a lot of experimenting to do.

But that's quite a bit faster than printing the 2 timbers first, which take about 20 minutes to print up to 1.9mm thickness but then another 10 minutes to add the top skin to give smooth tops. I suspect there is more scope for speeding up there, everything really depends on the required timber thickness (and the infill density).

The times are a bit misleading because of course once set running, the printer needs minimal attention for the rest of the day. The BIBO (and other printers?) also has an option to stop the print at any stage, and restart it later, or next day. Likewise if it suffers a power cut or runs out of filament.

I'm now looking at 4mm scale, which should obviously be quite a bit quicker than 7mm. The volume ratio is 343/64, say 5:1, so a fifth of the 7mm time for 4mm? We shall see.

cheers,

Martin.

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132nd message | this message only posted: 26 Dec 2018 23:44
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Martin

You could try 3mm/ft :D  Could be 12 times faster, say 20 seconds/chair.

Nigel

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Charles Orr
Leicester, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,
I use Simplify3D for slicing.  It has a very wide and comprehensive range of settings.

Charles

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134th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2018 20:47
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Charles Orr wrote:I use Simplify3D for slicing. It has a very wide and comprehensive range of settings.Thanks Charles.

It also costs $150 for much the same range of settings as are available in Slic3r and Cura, which are both free.

However it has brilliant previewing and extrusion animation functions, so I have had a rush of blood to the head and purchased a copy. I'm telling myself that it will be worth it when I get started on the 3D maps. :)

Here are the first trials in 4mm scale. I found that ordinary PLA was too fragile, so I have changed back to the tougher PLA+ which doesn't work so well for detail. Even so I needed to beef up the design of the chair jaws to give them sufficient strength, as Andy warned me I would.

At present the rail fit is a bit too tight, and I managed to thread only 4 of the 6 on the test piece without breaking them:







Above are EM gauge, with C&L code75 rail.

I think I have maybe over-beefed the outer jaw, there is still a lot of experimenting to do:



cheers,

Martin.

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135th message | this message only posted: 29 Dec 2018 23:53
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Have you considered PETG , it’s strong but has some flexibility , or perhaps FPE , of which I have no experience but the specs look good 

Dave
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136th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 00:38
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from:
Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote: Have you considered PETG , it’s strong but has some flexibility , or perhaps FPE , of which I have no experience but the specs look goodHi Dave,

Yes, I want to try ABS and PETG. I've started with PLA because that seems to be the most popular and easiest to print. Being strong and flexible isn't the only requirement, the most important thing is the ability to print fine detail.

But bear in mind that I don't actually want any track for myself. The object of the exercise is to export files from Templot which everyone can use for 3D printing or to send to Shapeways, etc. So I need to find settings for the files which will be usable by most Templot users. The only way I can do that is by trial and error on an actual printer.

I also have to bear in mind the passing of time. In the time Templot has been available (let alone the time I have been working on it), computing capability has leapt forward massively beyond what was available when it was first released. If it now takes me say 5 years to get all the chair designs and export options done, who knows what new 3D printing capability will have appeared by then? Or how many households will have a 3D printer? So I need to think ahead and put detail stuff in the files, even if there is no practical way at present to print them on a home machine.

cheers,

Martin.

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137th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 07:07
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Martin Carew
 

 

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Great to see all the development for Chairs going ahead! I am guessing this request might be a lesser used type but will flat bottom modern chairs be added in the near future? Specifically the Pandrol types etc?
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138th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 09:57
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from:
Martin Wynne
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Martin Carew wrote: Great to see all the development for Chairs going ahead! I am guessing this request might be a lesser used type but will flat bottom modern chairs be added in the near future? Specifically the Pandrol types etc?Hi Martin,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

Flat-bottom designs will come eventually, but I don't think you should hold your breath. Home 3D printing has a long way to go before functional Pandrol clips are feasible in the smaller scales.

UK-style bullhead track has remained largely unchanged for getting on for a century now. It's familiar to many and easy to model. In contrast, flat-bottom track has gone through massive changes over the same period, and is much more difficult to model.

Templot includes the inclined FB-109, BS-110A and BS-113A designs from the 1950s and 1960s, but that's it as far as native flat-bottom support is concerned. Anything later requires the user to create custom templates (and know what they are doing). Even the 1432mm double-curved vertical designs from the 1970s are not yet implemented and need to be improvised. It's all doable, but not necessarily straightforward. A modern transitioned high-speed turnout would need to be constructed from many custom partial templates.

I'm now 70 years old and I've been working on Templot one way or another for 40 years, see:

 http://templot.com/martweb/templot_history.htm

6 months ago I made Templot open-source, in the hope that someone a bit younger might come along to move Templot forward, including perhaps all the modern flat-bottom designs. But so far interest has been minimal -- it's still all down to me. As I said, I don't think you should hold your breath.

Unless of course someone somewhere is beavering away on a "son of Templot" program unknown to me? We can only hope. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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DerekStuart
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Martin,
Just a quick OT if I may.
1. Happy Birthday for your 70th (you said you were 70 this year but not when).

2. Please don't mistake lack of ability with lack of interest, re open source Templot. I've done a bit of programming before, but what you've done is well above most of us.

3. Best wishes for 2019.

Derek
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Andrew Barrowman
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madscientist wrote: Have you considered PETG , it’s strong but has some flexibility , or perhaps FPE , of which I have no experience but the specs look good 

Dave
Hi Dave,

I tried PETG but the result, though it was strong and flexible, was a stringy mess. It doesn't seem to "pinch-off" during retraction as well as PLA and its derivatives. It would, I think, be a good filament for objects that have large contiguous surfaces that don't require lots of retractions.

Cheers,
Andy

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141st message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 20:39
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from:
Martin Wynne
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Thanks Derek. Now 70 and a half. :)

Getting a bit better I think in 4mm scale. The rail is held vertical as intended, and by some fluke exactly to 18.2mm gauge EM (I was expecting to need some tweaking there).

Sensible close-up:



Silly close-ups:
 








I shall try again with ordinary PLA for cleaner detail, but the PLA+ is very much tougher and can withstand some reasonable rough handling when threading rail.

cheers,

Martin.

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142nd message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 21:48
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Andrew Barrowman
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Hi Martin,

Personally, I blame this 'ere modern close-up photography. If you'd published your efforts fifty years ago in the Railway Modeller everyone would say it's brilliant :)

Seventy eh? Gosh, you are old. I won't hit that one till next year (that sentence expires in less than 48 hours)

Cheers,
Andy
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143rd message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 21:53
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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Andrew Barrowman wrote: Hi Martin,

Personally, I blame this 'ere modern close-up photography. If you'd published your efforts fifty years ago in the Railway Modeller everyone would say it's brilliant :)

Seventy eh? Gosh, you are old. I won't hit that one till next year (that sentence expires in less than 48 hours)

Cheers

Old??? I'm 5 years older than that and still young :)

Nigel

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Andrew Barrowman
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Nigel Brown wrote:Old??? I'm 5 years older than that and still young :)
Nigel
Indeed you are!

If you are fortunate enough to have the mental or physical capacity, age is not at all absolute. I started skiing late in life. It keeps me young (and it makes me sleep really well :) )

If I don't over-do it this season I'll post some pics from Utah, Colorado, Idaho and Montana.

Cheers,
Andy

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145th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 23:01
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Martin Wynne
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Andrew Barrowman wrote: Seventy eh? Gosh, you are old. I won't hit that one till next yearHi Andy,

I've no immediate plans to be old. :)

But I've become only too aware that my brain is not what it was. You wouldn't believe how many silly mistakes I make nowadays when working on Templot code. Everything has to be checked, double-checked, and checked again. I'm permanently surrounded by bits of paper with odd numbers scribbled on the corner, because I know I will forget them within seconds if not written down. I find whole chunks of code which I have entirely forgotten about, and half-finished things which I don't recall starting.

Which is why I thought 70 was the time to make Templot open-source and hopefully let A. N. Other take it forward. 40 years is a long time to work on something single-handed. I still enjoy coding, but I wouldn't mind a break from it. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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146th message | this message only posted: 30 Dec 2018 23:40
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Here is another project that has been going a while although some of the info stinks :(

Toilet Map

Lots of missing info for us all to edit and update. A good excuse for drinking lots of tea too :)

Rob

P.S. Good work on the 4mm chair printing, not bad at all. I have never used Exactoscale rail - is it skinny in the foot area or just an illusion in your shots.




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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: P.S. Good work on the 4mm chair printing, not bad at all. I have never used Exactoscale rail - is it skinny in the foot area or just an illusion in your shots.Thanks Rob.

I believe the Exactoscale rail is from the same source as C&L and the scale societies.

(Winterbottom Wire Mills? see:

 http://www.wintwire.co.uk/profile-wire-manufacturers.htm

watch the animation.)

The overall rail dimensions are good, but the foot does look a bit low in those 10-year-old samples. I don't know how well they compare with current stocks. An undersize foot does of course help a bit in threading chairs.

cheers,

Martin.

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Rob Manchester
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Hi Martin,

Thanks for the wire link :) I guess the raw material is made abroad and imported and they produce the profiles from it. Rumour has it that Sheffield used to actaully produce the odd ton of steel and other materials a while back.

I suspect my stocks of code 75 BH that I class as being of C&L origin do probably include rail from at least one other source ( EMGS Stores ) but I can't see any difference in profile.

Having been critical of the Scalefour stores at their northern show last year I think I am probably banned from joining :( They just didn't seem to understand that code 82 FB rail should have a head width the same as code 75 BH. Now we don't have Peco IL-115 Code 82 with a correct width 4mm scale head it is an issue.

Happy New Year for tomorrow.

Rob



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Martin Wynne
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Nigel Brown wrote: Martin

You could try 3mm/ft :D  Could be 12 times faster, say 20 seconds/chair.
3mm? Sure. Do you want separate keys with that? :)

Happy New Year everyone.

2019 marks 40 years since I first started plotting templates from computed co-ordinates in 1979.

Here again are some memories from that time which I posted last year:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3197&forum_id=1&jump_to=23709#p23709

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne
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It's time to start thinking about some of the practicalities.

1. At present, almost every setting in Templot is template-specific. That means each template in a .box file can have its own scale (unlikely), its own rail section, etc. And they can all be output at the same time for the printed templates, PDF files and 2D DXF files, etc.

That's going to be difficult to continue for the chairing options, not least because of the use of BLOCK entities in the 3D DXF files.

It will be necessary to set up the required chair/baseplate dimension settings separately from the templates (or load the chair settings from a file), and then output an entire group of templates all with those same chair settings. It would get far too complex to make everything template-specific.

For most users this will have little effect. But if for example your track plan includes some GWR templates and some LSWR templates, with different chairs, if you want chair detail in the output it will not be possible to print both at the same time in the same print run or the same 3D panel. They will have to be done separately (unless you want to start editing the G-code manually).


2. Which brings me on to the question of panel joins in the 3D track bases. For the paper template prints it doesn't matter if a timber is split across separate pages, and the rectangular trim lines can be easily printed around each page. That's obviously not possible for the 3D track bases.

My printer can handle panels up to 8" x 7" (200mm x 175mm) and that is probably typical of many 3D printers. In any event you wouldn't want to print much larger because of the long print times. So a track plan is going to be made up from several track bases, and I need to devise some means to define the join positions running between the timbers. And then some sort of hook and socket fitting to align them accurately together for construction, unless they are going to be stuck down on paper templates?


3. So far I have fully defined only the REA S1 (3-screw) chairs. But it would now be possible to create plain track bases using them, to any length, curved or straight, in any scale or gauge.

Should I be looking to release a program update in the shorter term allowing only that much? So that folks can experiment with 3D printing from Templot files? It might be some time before I can get all the special chairs defined for turnouts. In the meantime it would be useful to have some feedback from users about the files and any tweaks needed.

The downside of that is that word will go round the web forums that Templot "can only do plain track", an idea which will then be difficult to shift. It is remarkable the way that so many folks ALWAYS get the wrong end of a stick. It's no wonder that "fake news" is so effective.

Thoughts welcome.

cheers,

Martin.

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Trevor Walling
United Kingdom

 

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2. Which brings me on to the question of panel joins in the 3D track bases. For the paper template prints it doesn't matter if a timber is split across separate pages, and the rectangular trim lines can be easily printed around each page. That's obviously not possible for the 3D track bases.Hello Martin,
        Would it be possible to print track panels vertically on top of each other in a stack?
It would make more efficient use of the build area.
Regards
Trevor.:)

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Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Dave,

Here's a sample of PETG.

Some of you might recognize this as a Tri-ang two-start worm and worm wheel. I just replicated the worm wheel on my printer. Obviously the hole in the center is a mess. I'll need to fiddle with temperatures and flow-rates to get it right, but the tooth definition is remarkably good. The surface is also very hard and should withstand a fair bit of use.

Cheers,
Andy



madscientist wrote: Have you considered PETG , it’s strong but has some flexibility , or perhaps FPE , of which I have no experience but the specs look good 

Dave


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Andrew Barrowman
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The reason I'm messing about with printed gears is slightly obscure. I'm converting a Hornby tender drive Duchess to four-wheel-drive. The leading and trailing drivers will be gear driven from a rather large motor in the tender and the Duchess will be filled with lead :D

However, all this messing around isn't completely irrelevant to track construction. PETG is very sturdy stuff, but it is a bit quirky when it comes to printing. Those gears are pretty good (later ones even better) but they really need to be printed one at a time (Slic3r allows that option) otherwise there will be lots of "spider webs" between the gears.

So, if chairs were to be printed in PETG I think it would be best if each chair was printed completely before moving on to the next chair. That seems to be the opposite of what works well with PLA, and it would probably require some G-code that I do not think Slic3r will generate.

Cheers,
Andy

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Stephen Freeman
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Everything quiet here at the moment? In the absence of any other developments in the matter I might actually have to make a start on designing some slide chairs (7mm scale GWR) before too long. Don't have any idea  how things will go. The only trouble is I have so much other pressing stuff to do, which is getting in the way.
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madscientist
 

 

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I’m just configuring my ender 3 with a 0.2mm nozzle to see how I get on

I also have on the bench an upgrade to a MKS Gen-L board that supports microstepping and I have some 0.9 degree nema17 steppers on order , it will be interesting to see how the actual resolution improvements translate to actual print quality
My ultimate goal is fit a two head system , that carrys a 0.4 and a 0.2 head 

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Martin Wynne
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madscientist wrote: My ultimate goal is fit a two head system, that carries a 0.4 and a 0.2 headHi Stephen, Dave,

I have set mine up with a 0.6mm nozzle for the timbers, 0.2mm nozzle for the chairs.

Bear in mind that the extrusion volume is determined by the area of the nozzle, i.e. the square of the diameter. Which means a 0.4mm nozzle will extrude 4 times faster than a 0.2mm nozzle (16:4). And a 0.6mm nozzle 9 times faster (36:4).

Which is another way of saying that a 0.2mm nozzle is extremely slow if you want to use it for anything of significant volume.

I haven't done much more on this project recently, I've been busy with other things. I must get back to it soon. Currently it needs some work on the gauging, for rail sections which don't match the prototype dimensions.

Looking back at the prints I made a couple of months ago, I'm more than ever convinced that the prints improve with keeping. It's difficult to be sure of a mechanism for this, but it is likely related to differential shrinkage. Certainly I know from injection moulding that mouldings age-shrink if not injected at a high enough pressure. And 3D filament is extruded at a tiny fraction of injection-moulding pressures.

Judging the results with a fresh eye, I think the 7mm results are really quite good -- on a par with 3D resin prints, and not far behind injection-moulded chairs.

The 4mm results are more iffy. At least so far. Fine at normal layout viewing distance, but not so good in cruel digital close-ups.

The most time-consuming part of the print is adding a smooth top skin to the timbers, to avoid the usual ridged 3D printing effect -- which is more noticeable with the 0.6mm nozzle of course.

cheers,

Martin.

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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote:
Looking back at the prints I made a couple of months ago, I'm more than ever convinced that the prints improve with keeping. It's difficult to be sure of a mechanism for this, but it is likely related to differential shrinkage. Certainly I know from injection moulding that mouldings age-shrink if not injected at a high enough pressure. And 3D filament is extruded at a tiny fraction of injection-moulding pressures.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,
Off topic a bit as usual but is that the reason that injection moulded RTR open wagon bodies have sides that bow inwards especially when you have had them a year or two ?? Kits aren't much of a problem as when building I make sure the sides bow out ( like the real ones ) so the solvent can at worst make them parallel.

Rob


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Martin Wynne
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Rob Manchester wrote:Off topic a bit as usual but is that the reason that injection moulded RTR open wagon bodies have sides that bow inwards especially when you have had them a year or two ??Hi Rob,

I don't have any such bodies to examine, but let me guess that this happens when the inside is smooth undetailed? And the feed gate is in the centre of the underside of the floor?

The outer surface of the side is seeing a lower injection pressure because of faster solidification in the fine detail, and also a greater distance from the gate.

It therefore age-shrinks more than the smooth inner surface, and the result is a side bowed in.

But it is poor-quality moulding, the machine pressure should be increased to prevent this happening. Possibly the moulding machine is too small for this job, lacking sufficient ton-lock to allow higher injection pressures.

But that's just me muttering in the corner, don't take any notice. :)

cheers,

Martin.   

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Rob Manchester
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Martin Wynne wrote: Rob Manchester wrote:Off topic a bit as usual but is that the reason that injection moulded RTR open wagon bodies have sides that bow inwards especially when you have had them a year or two ??Hi Rob,

I don't have any such bodies to examine, but let me guess that this happens when the inside is smooth undetailed? And the feed gate is in the centre of the underside of the floor?

The outer surface of the side is seeing a lower injection pressure because of faster solidification in the fine detail, and also a greater distance from the gate.

It therefore age-shrinks more than the smooth inner surface, and the result is a side bowed in.

But it is poor-quality moulding, the machine pressure should be increased to prevent this happening. Possibly the moulding machine is too small for this job, lacking sufficient ton-lock to allow higher injection pressures.

But that's just me muttering in the corner, don't take any notice. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin,
Thank you. We do take notice of you as your comments usually make logical sense :)

Yes, I think many, if not all, are moulded with a single injection point in the middle of the bottom. You don't tend to get any signs of other entry points. The bottom surface of the wagon is usually hidden by the chassis moulding, until that is you strip the wagon down to add compensation units or such like. The insides of wagons are often pretty plain in terms of detail but then again there wasn't that much on the prototype. Details such as end door hinge bars are usually added to the basic moulding.

Rectifying the issue isn't that easy. On a loaded wagon you can make an insert to keep the sides straight, or even bowed slightly. For empty ones I have done some experiments with hot water to see if forcing the sides apart while sitting the body in the hot water and then letting the body cool. Problem is the materials used seem to be variable, water that is too hot seems to eat away at the plastic, too cold and the body resumes it's concave shape.

Rob


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Nigel Brown
 

 

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This Cambrian Railways 15T coal wagon was constructed from a 3D printed body from Coast Line Models, who obligingly reduced his 4mm one to 3mm for me, along with buffers and springs / axle-boxes.



When it arrived it there was a noticeable bow to the sides. Came back to it 3 weeks later and the sides were straight. The sides are sufficiently thin that I wouldn't have been surprised if they had remained warped.

Nigel

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