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                                       C&L new 00 gauge flexitrack
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2018 12:37
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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On show at Scaleforum was a prototype 3D test print of the New C&L 00 gauge flexitrack.. A tool for making plastic extrusions is being made and hopefully stock will be available at Warley in October
   

 As you can see the track will have keys and available in main line version with keys going in the same direction, or single line with chairs alternating which side the keys are on. Each panel is 30' long 2 back to back make up a 60' panel  

  

 A view of the rear showing the breaks in the webbing, the 3D print does not hold its shape as well as plastic extrusions  



  You can clearly see the first sleeper is a 12" one with a smaller spacing between it and the next 10" one. Two panels back to back give a 60' panel 

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2nd message | this message only posted: 26 Sep 2018 08:52
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Judi R
Sutton-on-Sea, United Kingdom



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I hope this will have the correctly spaced sleepers for British BH track, closer together at the ends. I was very disappointed to find that the DCCconcepts Legacy BH track had even and compromised sleeper spacings.

Judi R
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3rd message | this message only posted: 26 Sep 2018 09:05
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Hayfield
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Judi R

I am no expert but I assume there are several styles ot sleeper spacing and numbers of sleepers.

The track base has gone with a 24 sleeper 60' length. Each sprue has 12 sleepers, the first being 12" the rest 10". The gap between the first 12" sleeper and the 10" sleeper is less than the gap between the 10" sleepers. Two sprues back to back make up the panel.
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4th message | this message only posted: 26 Sep 2018 09:23
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi John,

Is this new track base for 16.5mm or 16.2mm?

Given that 16.5mm flexi bullhead is already available from SMP, Peco and DCC Concepts (and Exactoscale?), the need or market space for another is a bit questionable. Whereas 16.2mm flexi would be a niche product with its own user base and the potential to dominate the finescale 00 market. Bearing in mind it's C&L supplying the 16.2mm track gauges (00-SF).

If it is 16.2mm, it would validate my advice (universally ignored :) ) when building 00-SF pointwork to do the transition to 16.5mm in the flexi-track ends, and not within the pointwork itself.

Nice to see the 12" joint sleeper (and with the wider joint chair), although that puts it mostly in the pre-group era (but lasting on existing track well into the grouping) and not for all companies. By 1926 the LNER drawings say "Special joint sleepers 12" x 5" may be used where the formation is soft or where the traffic is specially heavy and fast". So not so likely on the typical 1950s branch line. But such lines often have rails shorter than 60ft (typically 45ft), so easily modelled by shortening the base and cutting off the 12" sleeper.

Templot can print the rail joints with 12" joint sleepers if you set the 12" joint width at real > timbering > timbering data... menu item.

12" joint sleepers were often used close together with short 2-bolt fishplates, which I can't remember ever seeing modelled, and would be easy to do with these bases.

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 26 Sep 2018 13:49
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Martin

Sorry to disappoint you but standard 00 gauge, thoughts had gone to 45' lengths by cutting off the requisite numbers of sleepers per panel.

I do understand to a certain extent the market has several types, these do have keys which I understand others don't plus the base is far superior than the old C&L and SMP bases
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6th message | this message only posted: 26 Sep 2018 14:18
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Thanks John.

Here's a list of pre-group companies which used 12" sleepers with wider joint chairs at rail joints:

G&SWR
GCR
GER
GNR
*L&YR
LNWR
*MR
*NER
SE&CR

* = with ordinary chairs at joints.

Information from C. J. Allen, 1915.

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 06:59
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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I can’t quite see the rationale for another OO track entrant myself. This would be doubly true if the pricing is significantly different to the other offerings. Exact track fidelity or worrying about chair key direction is not the hallmark of most OO modelers 
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8th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 09:00
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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You may not see the need but its not entirely a new entrant. C&L have been producing 4 mm scale 00 gauge track for the best part of 40 odd years, it was their best selling line, but after many repairs the old tool gave up As a new tool was needed Phil tool the opportunity to revisit the track and up date it. 
00 gauge modellers are some of the most discerning modellers out there, look at the level of detail they demand from the models, which they buy in bulk. It is their demand that funds the RTR scale models EM and P4 modellers flock to buy and regauge, so why should they put up with second rate models of trackwork? 

One of the main faults of C&L's old track was the thickness of the sleepers, which if I am not mistaken was a designed to be compatible with ply and rivet construction. Over a decade or so ago the original designer of the system when designing the Exactoscale range accepted this design weakness and produced a new range with thicker sleepers, which in turn made it far more compatible with Peco streamline.  For a period of time C&L sold the Exactoscale track in meter lengths as their thick track which was very popular. 

Phil has revisited the product and made improvements which he believes the consumer wants. Going back 2/3 years ago on another forum there was plenty of 00 gauge modellers who vehemently disagreed with you views, they wanted a quality product under their stock to 4 mm scale. This fits their requirements and to top it off it will come with HiNi rail which looks much closer to steel than nickle silver rail.

  Now it would be nice if this standard of product was available in both EM & P4 gauges, the issue is would they (EM & P4 modellers) be willing to buy it in sufficient volumes ?

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9th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 09:02
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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I have to admit I was puzzled by the choice of track base. Either we’ll start seeing more accurate 00 pre-group layouts or a rash of BR Modern Image layouts on pre-grouping track!
I hope it works out for C&L, nonetheless.

Paul

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10th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 09:09
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from:
Hayfield
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Paul Boyd wrote: I have to admit I was puzzled by the choice of track base. Either we’ll start seeing more accurate 00 pre-group layouts or a rash of BR Modern Image layouts on pre-grouping track!
I hope it works out for C&L, nonetheless.

Paul
Paul
Far better than seeing the locos on H0 scale track, I think modern image will stick with flat bottom track if appropriate. Perhaps there is a market for a decent code 82 flatbottom track to run alongside the Exactoscale fast track base, but which version?

By the way C&L has received new stocks of code 82 rail

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11th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 09:10
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hayfield wrote: they wanted a quality product under their stock to 4 mm scale. This fits their requirements and to top it off it will come with HiNi rail which looks much closer to steel than nickle silver rail.
Yes, but it only fits their requirements if they’re modelling certain pre-grouping companies. How many will be doing that, do you think?
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12th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 09:26
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Hayfield
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Paul

Whatever track base is produced it will be wrong for some, still no 2, 4 or LSWR bolt formations, its a a step forward in the right direction, better than what went before it and in my opinion, We should be certainly encourage manufacturers to improve their products.

Peco never seemed to get all this flack !!especially as they did and still do pass of 3.5 mm scale products as 4 mm scale ones.

To answer your question, the mere fact that a small supplier has tried to offer a good product and supply what the consumer requires I hope plenty. If you do not want the track in 60' panels simply remove the 12" sleepers

Still the usual British syndrome, find fault in everything.
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13th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 10:50
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: Exact track fidelity or worrying about chair key direction is not the hallmark of most OO modellers Maybe not of OO modellers but it certainly is of 00 modellers.

The latter build 4mm/ft finescale models of 4ft-1.5in gauge railways with just as much care for prototype fidelity as modellers of 4ft-8.5in gauge railways.

Martin.



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14th message | this message only posted: 2 Oct 2018 12:34
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from:
Hayfield
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Martin
In defence of all three of us, 00 gauge modellers are a very large church, who vary from those who have little interest in the modelling side and just like playing trains, to those who show exquisite modelling skills.

Of course if folk are happy to use an excellent product all be it to a different scale, wrong rail profile and oversize rail section. That's fine

On the other hand its perfectly acceptable for an 00 gauge modeller to follow prototype practice but for practical purposes narrowing the gauge.

The new C&L track is in my opinion the best effort yet allowing the 00 gauge modeller to get nearer the prototype but using a ready to run product

In years to come when 3D printing is both practical and cost effective we will be able to order a bespoke item, until then compromises will have to be accepted and our discussions will continue hopefully in a pleasant manner 

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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hayfield wrote: 00 gauge modellers are a very large church, who vary from those who have little interest in the modelling side and just like playing trains, to those who show exquisite modelling skills.Hi John,

I differentiated between OO modellers and 00 modellers in that regard. It's a useful shorthand.

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 3 Oct 2018 07:08
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from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

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Hayfield wrote: In years to come when 3D printing is both practical and cost effective we will be able to order a bespoke item, until then compromises will have to be accepted and our discussions will continue hopefully in a pleasant manner 
Hi John,

3D printing is already both practical and cost effective. The problem is that many people expect "instant pudding". Whether 3D printed or not, bespoke items are always going to be expensive, but it's quite practical for people to avoid that expense if they are willing to invest some energy in learning the intricacies of running their own 3D printer.

Regards,
Andy

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Hayfield
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Andy

Thanks but what I was trying to explain (badly) is at the moment for mass production injection moulding is far cheaper than 3D printing, Example 7 mm chairs are about twice the price to have them printed against buying an injection moulded item

I can see a time when 3D printing will be far cheaper, eventually something that could be done at home cost effectively or bought cheaply. then you can buy a bespoke design exactly to your needs and either have it printed or print at home

Example, my wife gets photo's printed online, a certain amount a month for the cost of P&P. or for the price of getting your film developed she buys a small bespoke photo album with text added (not even worth printing at home any more). I can see 3D printing going the same way
In my opinion 3D printing at the moment does not have enough competition to force costs down

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18th message | this message only posted: 3 Oct 2018 13:50
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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My comments were directed at people using 16,5 mm track gauge whatever level of fidelity they model to.

The point is that a very discerning 16.5mm track aficionado is just as likely to be disappointed with C&Ls new track base as he or she is with PECOs bullhead , since neither will in all likelihood match exactly the detail that the prototype has

Hence C&Ls tracks base is just as much a compromise as PECOs is

Hence my puzzlement at the reason for a new trackbase , but I accept your comment about the old worn out tooling and of course the better moulded Exacto fast track base isnt now available to C&L ( in fact I dont know if its available at all )

personally for me , in 16,5mm I use PECO bullhead as its a good compromise between looks and price

dave
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19th message | this message only posted: 3 Oct 2018 14:54
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Hayfield
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Dave

Firstly its replacing an existing product that sold well, incorporating the feedback when C&L sold the Exactoscale product as the C&L thick base track, Phil decided to improve on the design to give customers a viable alternative by including 2 key options and the 60' track panels, this is something which is currently not available

I accept that it may not be to your liking, but Phil feels it is well worth the expenditure in new tooling and is hoping the innovations will increase its sales

C&L have been supplying 4mm scale 00 gauge track for a long time. Peco abandoned 4 mm scale track years ago, selling H0 scale track, and only came back into 4 mm scale market when another company started to challenge their dominance.

Exactoscale has made an announcement about not developing 00 gauge, so their continuance in the 00 gauge market is not known

Many dislike the stainless steel rail sold by DCC Concepts,

Martin has stated that the Peco bullhead is in fact still flatbottom, and some customers have said the new bullhead track is not as good as the old Streamline products

The rail used by C&L is not as yellow as both Peco and SMP, and is the nearest to the look of steel rail.

SMP still use the thin track base which many dislike and is less compattable when used with Peco turnouts
To me lots of compelling reasons to bring this updated product to the market

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20th message | this message only posted: 3 Oct 2018 15:49
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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I accept that it may not be to your liking,


I never said that

merely that I was perplexed as to why someone would want to enter the 16.5mm market with DCC, PECO , SMP and perhaps Exactoscale already in place

I accept fully your reasons , in relation to a previous good seller, but the market place is very different to when C&L first introduced its trackbase products

Thats all really


dave
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Hayfield
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Dave

They are not entering the market, they have been in it for years !!, with the exception of SMP and Peco (who left the 4 mm scale bullhead market 60 + years ago) Exactoscale, then DCC Concepts and finally Peco have all entered the market for scale bullhead

Perhaps I am being pedantic, a correct question should be is it worth C&L remaining in this market, the answer is no to what they have on offer, but worth it now it has been improved

Question 1 Who else offers a selection of keyed track in 00 gauge ?

Question 2 Who else is selling track in 60' panels ?

As Martin subtlety put it perhaps the OO modeller does not want it, but may be the 00 gauge modeller does.

Go back 2/3 years and the majority felt there was no need for Peco to produce 4mm scale flexi track let alone turnouts and crossings. Perhaps there is a growing band who require something a bit better than what's on offer now

Still we will find out the answer in the months to come
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madscientist
 

 

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As Martin subtlety put it perhaps the OO modeller does not want it, but may be the 00 gauge modeller does.

as Wikipedia says , there are the same thing , despite martins pronouncements !!!!!
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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madscientist wrote:  the better moulded Exacto fast track base isnt now available to C&L ( in fact I dont know if its available at all )

dave
Exactoscale had a stand at Scaleforum displaying their range of fast track bases in 00, EM and P4. I believe they had a limited amount of stock for sale, so it will be available again soon if it isn't already.                                      Tony.

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madscientist
 

 

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Tony W wrote: madscientist wrote:  the better moulded Exacto fast track base isnt now available to C&L ( in fact I dont know if its available at all )

dave
Exactoscale had a stand at Scaleforum displaying their range of fast track bases in 00, EM and P4. I believe they had a limited amount of stock for sale, so it will be available again soon if it isn't already.                                      Tony.
great news, hopefully Andrew Jukes will continue to make the 00 Fast track bases available 
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Andrew Barrowman
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Hayfield wrote: Andy

Thanks but what I was trying to explain (badly) is at the moment for mass production injection moulding is far cheaper than 3D printing, Example 7 mm chairs are about twice the price to have them printed against buying an injection moulded item

I can see a time when 3D printing will be far cheaper, eventually something that could be done at home cost effectively or bought cheaply. then you can buy a bespoke design exactly to your needs and either have it printed or print at home

Example, my wife gets photo's printed online, a certain amount a month for the cost of P&P. or for the price of getting your film developed she buys a small bespoke photo album with text added (not even worth printing at home any more). I can see 3D printing going the same way
In my opinion 3D printing at the moment does not have enough competition to force costs down
Hi John,

Unless someone comes up with some fiendish new technology I doubt if 3D printing will ever be able to compete with injection moulding for high volume parts, but it probably will make inroads into low-volume products and bespoke designs. I suppose to some extent it already is.

Cheers!
Andy

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Tony W
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madscientist wrote: Tony W wrote: madscientist wrote:  the better moulded Exacto fast track base isnt now available to C&L ( in fact I dont know if its available at all )

dave
Exactoscale had a stand at Scaleforum displaying their range of fast track bases in 00, EM and P4. I believe they had a limited amount of stock for sale, so it will be available again soon if it isn't already.                                      Tony.
great news, hopefully Andrew Jukes will continue to make the 00 Fast track bases available I'm sure they will from the statements they have already issued. The plan as I understand it, is to make as much as possible of the existing range available over time beginning with track and wheels, but there is unlikely to be any new product development. To be honest, knowing the large range of products that were once available under the Exactoscale banner even that will be a huge and time consuming task.
Tony.

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Hayfield
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Tony

I think its the way the statements from Mr Dukes have been both written and understood that has caused some confusion/concern. I think from memory he said Exactoscale will not be developing 00 gauge products, which is totally different to supporting their existing 00 gauge products.

In addition he did say products will be made available where possible so that the development costs can be recouped with the aim of making a small profit

I can understand not wanting to take the risk in providing new items for 00 gauge in a market where there is plenty of competition. Hopefully once the new arrangements for distribution are up and running there will be more clarity on the trackwork range, It was good to see them available again at Scaleforum
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