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                                       EM Gauge options
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 01:35
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Hope you are well. Would you take a minute or two to briefly explain the background to the EM-SF and EM4 options in the Templot gauge list. There was some correspondence in Model Railway Journal recently ago but the few recent MRJ's I have aren't the right ones for me to refer to. I have plans for some small cameo layouts that may be good choices for experimenting.

Regards
Rob


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2nd message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 02:37
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Hope you are well. Would you take a minute or two to briefly explain the background to the EM-SF and EM4 options in the Templot gauge list.Hi Rob,

Yes, I'm fine thanks. You?

Both these options were added to Templot after some correspondence on the forums, but I can't remember which ones or when, sorry.

Both are derived from the existence of 0.8mm check rail chairs from Exactoscale, which the Exactoscale web site describes as "EM" even though the flangeway gap for ordinary EM is in fact 1.0mm.

EM-SF uses 18.0mm gauge and a 0.8mm flangeway with existing EM wheelsets, to tighten up the standards for better running of EMGS and other EM kit wheels at existing back-to-backs. But unlike ordinary EM it won't accept widened RTR wheels. Check span is 16.4mm, so the minimum back-to-back is 16.5mm.

Gauge-widening is needed on sharp curves, for which 18.2mm flexi-track is suitable, transitioned down to 18.0mm over the last few sleepers connecting to EM-SF pointwork (in the same way that 00-SF modellers use 16.5mm flexi-track).

Wheels running on EM-SF layouts will also run on ordinary EM and vice versa, and pointwork to both standards can be used on the same layout, providing there are no RTR wheels.

RTR wheels (NMRA RP25/110) widened to EM have, or should have, a back-to-back of 16.4mm, and a flange thickness of 0.8mm, so they won't run on EM-SF.

EM-SF is worth looking at for anyone building an EM layout and definitely not intending to run RTR wheels. It looks better and will run a bit better than ordinary EM.

Pointwork to EM-SF can be added to an existing EM layout, providing there are no RTR wheels.

Did I mention that EM-SF won't work with RTR wheels? :)


EM4 is intended to allow EMGS and other EM kit wheels to be used on 18.83mm gauge track. In other words a sort of coarse version of P4, with 0.8mm flangeways. Wheels set to EM4 won't run on other EM tracks, and EM4 pointwork won't accept P4 wheels. So you are very much on your own if you choose EM4. There are some modellers wedded to 18.83mm gauge as a sort of religious belief, but who can't manage to get the fine P4 standards to work.

As with H0, EM4 breaks the golden rule that exact-scale gauge needs exact-scale wheel-widths -- otherwise the wheels won't fit behind scale-width valve gear, inside scale-width splashers, axleboxes, etc. I think EM4 is a daft idea, but it's there as a pre-set for those who want it.

cheers,

Martin. 

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3rd message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 04:10
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Hello Rob and Martin
I wasn’t aware of this standard (EM SF)and it sounds interesting as the crossings are more than half towards P4 which for me is P4s biggest visual benefit, that and super smooth running when well executed. 
Does anyone do a set of gauges for the EM SF standard and what do you feel the downsides are?

Kind regards 

Andrew

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4th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 04:27
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Rob and Martin
I wasn’t aware of this standard (EM SF)and it sounds interesting as the crossings are more than half towards P4 which for me is P4s biggest visual benefit, that and super smooth running when well executed. 
Does anyone do a set of gauges for the EM SF standard and what do you feel the downsides are?
Hi Andrew,

You already have the most important gauge, the check gauge -- it's the same as regular EM, 17.2mm.

A 0.8mm crossing flangeway gauge should be easy to find as car spark-plug feeler gauges. If not, 0.8mm is very close to 1/32" (0.794mm).

It's likely that someone somewhere is still doing an original 18.0mm EM track gauge, but sorry I don't know where. Someone on EMGS might know, there is still a bit of a following for it.

The major downside is that you can't simply widen the wheels on RTR models, they must be replaced with at least Romford/Markits, and preferably EMGS-profile wheels.

Plus a bit more consideration to minimum radius and gauge-widening on sharp curves (that's where the 18.2mm flexi comes in), and a bit more care generally in pointwork construction.

Other than that, I think I would seriously consider it if I was starting a new EM layout.

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 10:40
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Richard_Jones
Heswall, United Kingdom



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Oh dear!

That's all very confusing!

Just like when I started on my O gauge mini-layout, totally confused by the plethora of different "standards", which is why that is being built with Peco track!

I will have to make sure if I do any more 4mm layout planning that I stick with "EM Dimensions" with 18.2 track gauge, that I have been using since I joined the EMGS in 1981......

confused of Heswall!

Best wishes for 2019......

Richard

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6th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 14:16
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from:
Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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Thanks Martin, and of course I didn’t think it through, I already have one of the gauges and sourcing the flangeway gauge shouldn’t be difficult. However a bit too late for this build I fear! 
I do use Gibson wheels by and large with the odd engine having Ultascale, so presumably nothing to fear on that score?

Kind regards 
Andrew

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7th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 15:33
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Every now and then old 18 mm EM gauges surface, here are two, I guess the one top right is tan earlier one and has a check rail flat on both sides, the plain one has two flats on the same side on the outer and inner rims opposite each other. 
Why have I got them ? I have a soft spot for gauges, if any are going cheap I buy them 

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8th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 18:40
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,

Yes, I am fine too thanks. Thanks for the explanation, I suspected EM-SF would be a good bet. I may try some crossing work and see how it runs before making any decisions. The unsuitable nature of Bachmann and Hornby ( and especially Dapol/Heljan) wheels ( presumably because the flange is thicker making a large enough back-to-back to span the checkrails impossible without wheels hitting the crossing nose ? ) isn't an issue on small layouts if you plan your roster in advance.

All my rolling stock gets Gibson wheels as a matter of course. The motive power that isn't provided for is mainly just those that have non-standard axle/gear arrangements such as Hornby class 31 diesels ( if there are any that haven't rotted the chassis :( ) and many of the DMU/EMU's available that have a central plastic gear muff into which half axles are inserted. A good plan in theory as you do away with wipers for pickup by using the bearing cups to perform this function.

I still don't understand check rail chairs being moulded to a particular dimension. That may work if you are used to setting the check rails with a crossing flangeway gauge :( :( but surely if you gauge the checkrails from the crossing nose then the gap isn't always going to be a suitable fit on the fixed check rail chairs ? Especially so on curved turnouts.....

I have On3 crossing templates on the go at the moment. That's the problem, every time I set out to make something I change my mind half way through and get diverted.

Thanks again for the info.
Rob




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9th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 18:54
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:I still don't understand check rail chairs being moulded to a particular dimension. That may work if you are used to setting the check rails with a crossing flangeway gauge :( :( but surely if you gauge the checkrails from the crossing nose then the gap isn't always going to be a suitable fit on the fixed check rail chairsHi Rob,

If you use fixed check chairs, the crossing and the check rails should be installed first. The stock rails are then threaded through them, and the track gauge to the stock rails is whatever it turns out to be.

It means that gauge-widening can't be used through pointwork. If it is needed, the check chairs will need to be cut in half so that the flangeway gap can widen.

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 19:36
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Thanks Martin.

Rob


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11th message | this message only posted: 29 Jan 2019 20:28
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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The Exactoscale 0.8 mm check rail chairs would be fine for EM SF
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12th message | this message only posted: 30 Jan 2019 10:12
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Hayfield
Isn't that too simplistic a statement.
"The Exactoscale 0.8 mm check rail chairs would be fine for EM SF"

Don't you need to qualify it by saying the type of wheels used (RTR or EM profile)
If the statement is true for EM SF then it must be true for 00 SF, provided that the wheel profiles are the same.

Cheers Godders
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13th message | this message only posted: 30 Jan 2019 12:20
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: If the statement is true for EM SF then it must be true for 00 SF, provided that the wheel profiles are the same.Hi Godders,

To use 0.8mm flangeway gaps in 00 there are two options:

00-XF on 16.0mm gauge with 0.8mm flangeways. This means kit wheels to EMGS or RP25/88 profile are interchangeable with 00-SF and 00-BF at the same back-to-back. Minimum back-to-back is 14.5mm and it won't work with RTR wheels, unlike 00-SF and 00-BF.

00-XF pointwork can be mixed on layouts with 00-SF and 00-BF if there are no RTR wheels. They all have the same 15.2mm check gauge.

004 on 16.5mm gauge with 0.8mm flangeways. As with EM4 this requires a non-standard back-to-back which is not compatible with anything else, and likewise won't work with RTR wheels. It is for those with a religious attachment to 16.5mm gauge who want something finer than DOGA-Fine.

In all these cases, EM-SF, EM4, 00-XF, 004, wheels from Romford/Markits are marginal. They will work on straight and gently curved track, but any significant curving will require some gauge-widening. In EM4 and 004 they won't work with the standard Romford/Markits axles.

These two standards aren't in the Templot gauge list of pre-sets, but can easily be set up as custom settings. They are not in the pre-sets because I don't have the strength to keep on explaining them over and over again for 20 years, as I have been doing for 00-SF on RMweb and elsewhere. :?

The golden rule with choosing which standard to use is that you decide on your wheels first. Whereas the hobby for decades has been pre-occupied with deciding the track gauge first.

cheers,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 30 Jan 2019 15:30
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: Hi Hayfield
Isn't that too simplistic a statement.
"The Exactoscale 0.8 mm check rail chairs would be fine for EM SF"

Don't you need to qualify it by saying the type of wheels used (RTR or EM profile)
If the statement is true for EM SF then it must be true for 00 SF, provided that the wheel profiles are the same.

Cheers Godders
Godders
The first thing is it gives a 0.8 mm gap, if you choose to use this standard you follow the advice on wheels given

With adaption these chairs can be used for both EM & 00SF gauges, as they have a common 1 mm check rail gauge

On a 5 timber check rail I put the two outer chairs and 1 inner, I put two inner chairs on the stock rail (on smaller 4 timber check rails two outer chairs on the stock rails and two inner chairs on the check rails), 

I cut through the unused gap in the check rail chairs and save the resulting half chairs. 

The stock and check rails can be fitted using gauges, then the half chairs can be added in their respective places

As it happens there is no noticeable gap showing on both EM & 00SF, I also do the same for standard 16.5 but if you look close a tiny gap is visible. I feel its still better than chopping up standard chairs

As it happens the Exactoscale common crossing and additional switch rail chairs seem mostly to work fine which ever gauge. The obtuse and slip chairs an also be used, but you may need to use alternative chairs than those shown in the Exactoscale instructions for P4 crossings

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