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                 Modelling GWR loose heel switches in 4mm
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41st message | this message only posted: 18 Feb 2019 23:49
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Andrew Duncan
Reigate, United Kingdom



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madscientist wrote: In Nigel's pic of his excellent point work , I notice he omits the loose heeled chair completely , i.e. a key visual point of a loose heeled switch was the tight and loose chair straddling the fishplate

Dave
Hello Dave
So far as key visuals are a concern my feeling is it’s important to have a break in the rail at the heel so that when one of the switches is “open” you can see a clear difference in alignment between it (the switch) and the closure rail. The shorter the turnout the more pronounced this is. 

Kind regards 
Andrew

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42nd message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 08:04
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madscientist
 

 

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Nigel Brown wrote: madscientist wrote: In Nigel's pic of his excellent point work , I notice he omits the loose heeled chair completely , i.e. a key visual point of a loose heeled switch was the tight and loose chair straddling the fishplateHi Dave

Not sure what you mean here. As far as I can tell, my loose heel switch conforms to the diagrams and pics in Smith's GWR Switch and Crossing Practice. Can't see anything there which looks like a chair straddling the fishplate.

Cheers
Nigel
Hi Nigel , if I’m interpreting the picture correctly, I do not see a chair on the tongue side of the fishplate ? 
Dave 


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43rd message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 08:05
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from:
madscientist
 

 

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Andrew Duncan wrote: madscientist wrote: In Nigel's pic of his excellent point work , I notice he omits the loose heeled chair completely , i.e. a key visual point of a loose heeled switch was the tight and loose chair straddling the fishplate

Dave
Hello Dave
So far as key visuals are a concern my feeling is it’s important to have a break in the rail at the heel so that when one of the switches is “open” you can see a clear difference in alignment between it (the switch) and the closure rail. The shorter the turnout the more pronounced this is. 

Kind regards 
Andrew
I would entirely agree 
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44th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 08:08
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madscientist
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: madscientist wrote:and the tongue has to move in excess of twice the difference of the prototypeHi Dave,

Some misunderstanding there?

The prototype blade tip opening ("switch drive") is 4.25 inches = 1.42mm in 4mm/ft scale.

For EM and 00-SF I normally recommend the thickness of a 20p coin (1.75mm) to set the tip opening.

That's only 23% more the the prototype, and a long way short of "in excess of twice". :?

And extending the length of the switch in EM and 00-SF for running clearance, actually reduces the amount of "give" needed at the heel joint.

cheers,

Martin.
Thank you , Martin , for correcting my rather over-exuberant use of “ in excess “. Given I use the coin test myself !! 

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45th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 08:10
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madscientist
 

 

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Matt M. wrote: Hi Dave,

Apologies I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I had been reading it with interest
and there seemed to be some confusion as to how this type of switch mounting
was constructed. I only understand it as a friend of mine was the last Chief Officer of the Permanent-Way Branch of the NSWGR and we talk on research matters for early track.

To your modelling problem I did remember and confirmed that Jim Snowdon did an article
in MRJ 113 dealing with the way he got over this using wire hinges.
It is of course in 7mm so may be a little fiddly in 4mm.
I also don't know the longevity of his solution. The effect was very pronounced with
straight cut switches.

Cheers, Matt M.
 No issue with “ hijack “ all track talk is interesting , hijack away 
Dave 



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46th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 11:28
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from:
Nigel Brown
 

 

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madscientist wrote: Nigel Brown wrote: madscientist wrote: In Nigel's pic of his excellent point work , I notice he omits the loose heeled chair completely , i.e. a key visual point of a loose heeled switch was the tight and loose chair straddling the fishplateHi Dave

Not sure what you mean here. As far as I can tell, my loose heel switch conforms to the diagrams and pics in Smith's GWR Switch and Crossing Practice. Can't see anything there which looks like a chair straddling the fishplate.

Cheers
Nigel
Hi Nigel , if I’m interpreting the picture correctly, I do not see a chair on the tongue side of the fishplate ? 
Dave
Hi Dave, there's no fishplate. That's a bit of crude which seems to have attached itself to the rail. :D
The heel chair is to the left of the gap.
Nigel

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47th message | this message only posted: 19 Feb 2019 20:33
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madscientist
 

 

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Ah ok.
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48th message | this message only posted: 20 Feb 2019 09:57
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Just caught up on this topic.  Matt, thanks so much for posting those drawings showing Australian practice; they are quite fascinating and clearly show the extent of the differences between switches constructed with bullhead rail and those with flat bottom rail, right down to the .25" chamfer in the foot of the FB variety to allow it to swing.

The attached photo shows the prototype I made about  4 years ago for a NB loose heel switch.  Unfortunately I got its dimensions wrong and the tongue is quite a lot longer than the 12' length that was so commonplace on NB lines.  The tube through the baseboard carrying the pivot wire is rendered unobtrusive by the simulated heel plate; it would be rather more obvious in the absence of that plate, but not necessarily unacceptable - indeed, it would not be necessary to carry the tube any higher than the top of the ballast, leaving a gap of no more than a millimetre or thereabouts.

I knew that one day I would find a use for those prehistoric Kingsway brass chair stampings I salted away!


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49th message | this message only posted: 20 Feb 2019 10:31
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madscientist
 

 

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I’m still pondering the best way to “ represent “ the loose heal “ effect “ , primarily the visual  feature as pointed out that there is an obvious “ discontinuity “ when the switch blade is open 
I dont want to use any form of pivot that extends into the baseboard as I build all my points on the workbench .  Hence my current thinking , in advance of the inevitable failure of reality! , is to pivot the loose heel chair and a “ sloppy “ fishplate , I was thinking of a pin in the base of a plastic or brass chair and then drilled into the underlying ply sleeper ( with the possibility of a brass pivot tube fitted into the sleeper .  The only issue being the pivot point should be at the fishplate , but it may work. 

The other idea , since I’ve just fitted my Ender 3 with a 0.2mm nozzle ( it’s a fantastic printer for $150 folks ! ) , is to print a “ loose heeled “ sleeper with appropriate chairs , 4mm chairs in 3D are a challange though. No concrete ideas yet 

Martin could 3D help here ? 

I also have to make two GWR profile single slips ( or compounds as the gwr called them ) in 7mm , that should be fun ! , I presume these are also joggles and straight cut switches here too 

Great thread, we need to rescue the forum from all the hill walkers :D, good NSWF hardcore track stuff 

Dave. 

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50th message | this message only posted: 20 Feb 2019 12:23
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madscientist
 

 

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The only 3D “ idea “ I’ve postulated is to print both sleepers on either side of the fishplate with a “bridge “ piece between them , which would be hidden in the ballast , but has a “ boss “ that could accept a brass pin soldered to the end of the tongue rail and then fit fake split fishplates. Obviously there would have to be play in the loose heel chair. But that’s easily done with half chairs

This would allow the pivot point to be more or less correctly positioned , but still allow the point to be constructed on the workbench

It would also work for slips too , where I find pivoting the switch rail is needed in almost all cases anyway

Dave
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51st message | this message only posted: 27 Jul 2019 14:29
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hayfield wrote:  Either a cosmetic approach by cutting a notch in the top of the rail and soldering an etched fishplate both sides. 
I am considering using this pragmatic solution for Loose Heel Switches. Should I use a Loose Heel Switch Template or a Flexible Switch Template?

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52nd message | this message only posted: 27 Jul 2019 21:15
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Higgs wrote: Hayfield wrote:  Either a cosmetic approach by cutting a notch in the top of the rail and soldering an etched fishplate both sides. 
I am considering using this pragmatic solution for Loose Heel Switches. Should I use a Loose Heel Switch Template or a Flexible Switch Template?
Hi David,

For constructional purposes it doesn't make any difference which template you use, or whether you make the blades loose-heel or not. The template simply shows the rail alignment when the switch blade is closed against the stock rail. What happens when it's open is up to you.

The template shows the prototypical detail for the rail joint positions, timber spacings, etc., but these don't prevent other construction methods on the template. For loose-heel switches the rail joint positions can only be used as printed if you use an exact-scale flangeway. For 00, EM, 0-MF, etc., it is necessary to move the joint to provide sufficient flange clearance in the open position. So loose-heel switches can't be modelled exactly to scale in these gauges. Even in P4 the joint needs moving strictly speaking because P4 flangeways are 15% overscale. To model a loose-heel switch exactly in 4mm scale needs the S4-X standard. In 7mm scale it has to be S7.

But the loose-heel switches are available in a wider range of sizes, and allow shorter turnouts and easier radii in the non-natural sizes. So even if building with flexible switch blades, it is worth using a loose-heel template if you are tight for space and needing short turnouts.

Cosmetic fishplates could then be added to the flexible rail to represent the loose-heel joint. At any one time 50% of them will be correctly positioned. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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53rd message | this message only posted: 29 Jul 2019 13:09
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David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Thank you for your reply.

All noted on the position of the "Rail Joint" and the "flange clearance"

As my Templot plan is near completion I will stick with the Loose Heel Template.
Regards

David

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