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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Templot talk > Creating complex pointwork at Holborn Viaduct
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                 Creating complex pointwork at Holborn Viaduct
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 16:48
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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This is my first venture into the Templot world of forums, topics and messages. I hope it is in the correct format and in the right forum (couldn't find a way of changing the forum for this message).

I'm working in S4-X and have an awkward arrangement of a tandem turnout with a running line intersecting it. The running line diverges from the left-hand arm of the tandem and runs across the other two arms. The problems I have are in the detailing:

(1)  how do I make the diamonds when they're within the bounds of the turnout? I've resorted to crafting the V and K crossings individually using the gaunt turnout procedure for adding a third V to a tandem turnout. The Vs I can cope with but the Ks are more awkward, especially when trying to match the radii involved. I'm sure there must be a more elegant solution somewhere but I'm afraid it eludes me. The count of partial templates in the clean-up rises by the day!

(2)  how can I detail the ends of wing and check rails where a rail intersects them -- the cut ends need to be angled to match the intersecting line? I can remove the flare and adjust the lengths but cannot see how to adjust the end shape to match the angle of the intersecting rail.

I'm spending hours on this with little obvious progress. Any help would be most appreciated.

Regards

Geoff



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2nd message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 17:10
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Geoff,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, something like this perhaps?



If not, please can you attach your .box file or post a screenshot? Is the tandem double-sided or single-sided? What are the turnout crossing angles?

You can change the angle on the end of a check rail by adjusting the flare length (before shortening it).

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 17:30
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello Martin -- thanks for your speedy reply. I'm afraid it's more complicated than that. The running line is intertwined with the V crossings.

Initially, I'd like to send a screen shot but have no idea how to do that. Any pointers?

Regards

Geoff
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4th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 17:42
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Sorry Martin, should have said that it was supposed to be a single-sided tandem. The left-hand turnout of the tandem has a V of 1 in 9.03 and the other is under construction (haven't added the V yet as it too is involved in further complication!).

Geoff
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5th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 18:25
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from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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For a screen shot, use the print screen button, this is to the right of the function keys and is marked something like "prn scrn" or a variation. Once you have done this open paint and use paste and then "save as". normal file saving rules now apply.

Phil.
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6th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 19:33
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Geoff Lines wrote: Initially, I'd like to send a screen shot but have no idea how to do that. Any pointers?Hi Geoff,

In addition to Phil's method, you can use this function in Templot:



To add it to your post, click the Upload new image for insertion button above the writing area. The image will be found in your

 C:\TEMPLOT_DEV\IMAGE-FILES\

folder.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 20:17
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Thanks Martin and Paul -- the screenshot is attached. The one I'm working on is centre bottom. As you can see, the complications, of which I am a glutton, are quite interesting. The plan is a trace of an actual station as it was from 1870s until it was rationalised in the early twentieth century, so there's not much room for adjustment -- in a constricted site, the single entrance track has to be able to access each of six platforms, and to exit any of the platforms, lines have to access the single exit track.
Anything you could offer to help things move on would be most appreciated. One response could be: 'find another prototype', but after 40+ years of pipe dreaming. . .

Regards

Geoff

  

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8th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 22:21
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Good grief Geoff. :)

You didn't mention the transition curve!

Do you have a photo of the prototype? I'm not convinced all the crossings can be checked, but if the prototype could do it, then it should be doable in the model, especially if you are using S4-X with exact-scale flangeways.

I've had a quick stab at a skeleton of the bottom part, but it's only a guess:



Please can you attach your .box file so that I can be sure I have the correct alignments? It's the sort of plan where a small change in radius or angle can be critical.

To attach a .box file, click the Browse (or Choose) button below the writing area. The .box file will be found in your

 C:\TEMPLOT_DEV\BOX-FILES\

folder.

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 26 Mar 2019 23:18
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello Martin ( and Phil -- sorry got your name wrong on the last post).

I thought you might be surprised! I have seen a photo of part of this trackwork and, yes, it was built like this. I'll try and relocate it.

How did you create that so quickly? It's taken me ages.

I can't play at the moment -- hope to get back to it tomorrow.

Many thanks

Geoff
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10th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 11:28
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello Martin -- the box file is attached, I hope. There are probably a number of misalignments to be dealt with -- my method of aligning by tangents may not be precise enough.
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Attachment: trial_hv_entrance_wi_2019_02_18_1630_43.box (Downloaded 73 times)
 
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11th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 12:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Geoff,

Many thanks for the file. I can't imagine how long it took to create all that -- I hope you have kept good backups. There is an option to keep them here if you wish, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_category.php?id=4

Some parts of it look a bit unlikely to me, for example:



I don't know how you are going to get two V-crossings so close together, and attach a moving switch to them. Do you have a photograph of the prototype? Are you working over a background map? If you say the prototype location we can probably import a map from NLS. I'm guessing the hv in your file name is either High Voltage or Holborn Viaduct? My telepathy machine has had 20 years experience on here.  :)

There are excellent 60"/mile maps from the 1890s available for that location.

How are you planning to build this? Fully chaired or copper-clad?

cheers,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 13:56
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Geoff,

I have imported the NLS 60" map as a background:




I notice some differences between the map and your plan:




At A the alignment and switch positions differ. At B the original curving is sharper than your design.

I used the georeferenced version of the map. Did you use a different version of the map, or maybe the original single sheet version? Georeferencing does change the curvature. Or maybe some other railway map or track plan? Or are the differences intentional?

You referred to a tandem turnout, but I'm not really seeing that. What I'm seeing is an outside slip. It doesn't necessarily make any difference to the final result, but it might change the approach to creating the design.

cheers,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 14:37
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Geoff,

Many thanks for the file. I can't imagine how long it took to create all that -- I hope you have kept good backups. There is an option to keep them here if you wish, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_category.php?id=4

Some parts of it look a bit unlikely to me, for example:



I don't know how you are going to get two V-crossings so close together, and attach a moving switch to them. Do you have a photograph of the prototype? Are you working over a background map? If you say the prototype location we can probably import a map from NLS. I'm guessing the hv in your file name is either High Voltage or Holborn Viaduct? My telepathy machine has had 20 years experience on here.  :)

There are excellent 60"/mile maps from the 1890s available for that location.

How are you planning to build this? Fully chaired or copper-clad?

cheers,

Martin.
Hello Martin -- I've just spent a while crafting an answer to you but I clicked on Preview and lost the lot! In the meantime you've sent me your latest map comparison.
Here goes again. 

Yes, you're right, it's Holborn Viaduct in its original layout and I've spent many hours building up the drawing. I use an external back-up. 

I traced a copy of the original LC&DR plan which I was lucky enough to purchase from BR's Plan Arch back in the 1970s. The OS plan you've compared with shows a removal of two redundant lines but the entrance arrangement just north of Ludgate Hill bridge seems to be awry, and this dissuaded me from using it in the first place. However, I'm beginning to think I should review that decision and contemplate redoing the whole thing basing it on that map.

I do have a photo of this splendid trackwork, but it is from a collection. Can I send a copy to you for your eyes only -- I don't want it to find its way onto the interweb?

The feature you ring in red I've had trouble with. I've been unable to get a divergence to give space enough for full support of the left-hand arm of the V. I've tried putting the peg on the FP and varying the switch type but without success.

I will be fully chaired but I think I shall use the traditional rivet-and-solder technique that Tony W uses so effectively. The downside means many hours applying the cosmetic chairs -- but I've done this before on club layouts.

Regards

Geoff

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14th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 15:46
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

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Thanks Geoff.

Can you explain what happened when you previewed your post? You should be able to scroll down from the preview back to the text editor to continue writing. If your post includes an attachment, it may take a while for the Preview page, or the text editor content, to appear.

If a Preview fails, you should be able to click the Back button in your browser and recover your text. This may depend on which browser you are using. If your internet connection cannot be relied on when you Preview or Send, it is a good idea to Select All (CTRL-A) and then Copy (CTRL-C) before doing so, which can then be pasted back (CTRL-V) if necessary. Alternatively for a long or complex post, it may be better to compose it in some other editor, such as Windows Notepad, and then copy/paste into your post.

I would be interested to see your photo -- you can find my email address by clicking on my name on the left, and then my Profile. I won't copy it anywhere else.

cheers,

Martin.

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15th message | this message only posted: 27 Mar 2019 16:05
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello again Martin -- thanks for the info about back-ups. I'll look at that later.

The discrepancies between my plan and the OS map make me think that if realigned as per the OS, maybe the problems I'm having with too little space with the diverging turnouts (as you have pointed out with the red ring) will be eliminated, well perhaps, eased. I cannot match the short switch ahead of the V for the turnout into the yard (underneath the word 'FLEET' on the OS), so the realignment may cure that as well. I can't believe that the arrangement at the entrance on the OS was built that way; I feel I would have to smooth it out. However, I'm downhearted at the prospect of having to do it all again.

This, of course, won't help with the problems I'm having with detailing the awkward features that I first highlighted.

Regards and thanks for your help.

Geoff
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16th message | this message only posted: 28 Mar 2019 16:01
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Thanks Geoff.

Can you explain what happened when you previewed your post? You should be able to scroll down from the preview back to the text editor to continue writing. If your post includes an attachment, it may take a while for the Preview page, or the text editor content, to appear.

If a Preview fails, you should be able to click the Back button in your browser and recover your text. This may depend on which browser you are using. If your internet connection cannot be relied on when you Preview or Send, it is a good idea to Select All (CTRL-A) and then Copy (CTRL-C) before doing so, which can then be pasted back (CTRL-V) if necessary. Alternatively for a long or complex post, it may be better to compose it in some other editor, such as Windows Notepad, and then copy/paste into your post.

I would be interested to see your photo -- you can find my email address by clicking on my name on the left, and then my Profile. I won't copy it anywhere else.

cheers,

Martin.
Hello Martin -- When the Preview failed I think I panicked and hit the Back button straightaway and scrolled up and down still in panic mode. Maybe I should have waited a bit before acting.
Regards

Geoff 

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17th message | this message only posted: 31 Mar 2019 20:29
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Geoff,

I have started a separate topic to answer your question about Templot design methods:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3405&forum_id=1

That leaves this topic to cover the specifics of Holborn Viaduct.

cheers,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 11 Apr 2019 14:27
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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I am following this topic closely as I seemed to have come across this sort of arrangement before. As I might have said before, the Southern seem to have employed such complicated trackwork several times, no doubt due to restricted space and cost of land etc.
Is there perhaps some sort of competition going on to see who can build the most mind-boggling complex?
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19th message | this message only posted: 11 Apr 2019 16:41
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John Lewis
Croydon, United Kingdom

 

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Stephen wrote:
> I am following this topic closely as I seemed to have come across this sort of arrangement before. As I might have said before, the Southern seem to have employed such complicated trackwork several times, no doubt due to restricted space and cost of land etc.

I think in this case it was down to the London Chatham & Dover Railway and the extremely congested site between Blacfriars, Ludgate Hill and Holborn Viaduct stations, not to mention the junction with the line going off to Smithfield and Farringdon.

John
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20th message | this message only posted: 21 May 2019 14:15
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Geoff

Any progress on this project ?
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21st message | this message only posted: 21 May 2019 15:48
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hayfield wrote: Geoff

Any progress on this project ?
Hello Hayfield -- I'm in the process of redrawing the original Holborn track plan using an SE&CR plan. The original LC&DR plan I used must have been more theoretical than actual as I could not get enough clearance for a couple of switches in tandem turnouts where they were very close to the crossings, and I could not align the connection to the loco yard at the top to match the actual arrangement. I will have to adjust the SE&CR simplified track arrangement to match it to the original LC&DR layout. I'm not happy to use the 1890 OS map because of the incongruous arrangement of the entrance trackwork off Ludgate Hill bridge.
However, while I deal with two other projects progress has temporarily halted.

When I'm happy with the overall plan, I may need Martin's further help when I come to detailing the K-crossings and other similar features!

Regards

Geoff
 

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22nd message | this message only posted: 21 May 2019 16:38
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JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Geoff,

Not sure I follow why you would think that the 1890 OS arrangement of Ludgate Hill is "incongruous"? It has always seemed to me to be quite feasible - albeit with four three way diamonds.

As I am sure you will be aware, there was a previous topic on this:-

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2400&forum_id=1

Best Wishes,
Howard
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23rd message | this message only posted: 21 May 2019 17:07
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello Howard -- Yes, I was impressed by your forays into Ludgate Hill North, especially the three-way diamonds. How do you manage to do the detailing so quickly -- I struggle with partial templates but you seem to do it with comparative ease!

With the OS map, the incongruous part is where the up main connects to the down main immediately after crossing Ludgate Hill bridge. In my first iteration using the LC&DR plan, this link was smooth unlike the reverse curve on the OS map. To smooth it out on the OS would push the switches back further onto the bridge where there would be insufficient clearance -- the bridge girders are tight to gauge here.

May be my reservations are unfounded and it was built with the reverse curve connection and the wider separation of the in and out tracks. Unfortunately, photographs of Holborn are few and far between, especially in the 19th Century.

Regards

Geoff
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JFS
United Kingdom

 

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Ha - gocha - there is not too much detailing in there at all!! And I am not sure I could detail the three-way Ks - let alone the 2 x 3-way vees - though I did work out how they would need to be made.
The aspect you mention is one area where the OS map and the plan from the Engineer differ. And an even more tricky area is the pointwork at the end of the Up Main platform - the logic of it looks clear, but to engineer the thing as-drawn looks like a challenge... But I think the bottom line is that until a photograph or two surfaces, we are in the land of guesswork.

Looking forward to constuction!
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25th message | this message only posted: 25 May 2019 18:41
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from:
Geoff Lines
Near St Albans, United Kingdom

 

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Hello Hayfield (John) -- I didn't know you were interested in Holborn Viaduct station. As you may know, I'm drawing up the trackwork for the original layout, which was extremely complicated. By 1913, the layout had been simplified and the platform for lines 4 and 5 lengthened and I guess this is the version you'd be drawing up.

Look forward to see how you get on.

Regards

Geoff
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26th message | this message only posted: 27 May 2019 08:49
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Geoff

I am looking at it for someone else who is interested in it, however he wants the plan to be straightened a bit (to fit into a space) and the formations to be both buildable and reliable, so some interpretation may be the order of the day.
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