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1st message | this message only posted: 12 Apr 2019 14:50
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Hi

I'm converting a complex layout from Scale 7 to S4-X. On conversion, some of the turnouts turnout roads are ending up too long. 

I wondered what I'm doing wrong, if anything... 

Below is a simple example, just to show what's happened:



I've attached the box file as well..

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message ref: 26954
Attachment: convert_group.box (Downloaded 39 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 12 Apr 2019 15:37
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richard,

You have found a bug. :(  Thanks for reporting it.

The problem is that you have set geometry > turnout road exit length to the adjustable setting.

That option is not being honoured properly when doing the conversion. Sorry about that.

For the template illustrated you could change to normal. But that won't be convenient in many cases, so I will get it fixed as soon as possible.

In the meantime your only fix is to adjust the exit length manually on each converted turnout (CTRL+F12 mouse action).

If you have a lot to do, you might like to set up a custom conversion factor of 4/7ths (0.5714) for use at geometry > template lengths (in mm)... menu item.

thanks again,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 13 Apr 2019 11:44
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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I do have a lot to do, and no time at the moment to do it. So if it's on your to-do list, then I'm happy to wait until you get round to it.

Many thanks

Richard
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4th message | this message only posted: 8 Jul 2019 14:53
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Are there also changes I need to make for shoved timbers? In the example below (which is part of a larger formation), the original Scale 7 timbers and have been moved when converted to S4-X.





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message ref: 27193
Attachment: group_2019_07_08_1549_38.box (Downloaded 22 times)
 
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5th message | this message only posted: 8 Jul 2019 16:01
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richard,

In your capacity as Bug-finder-in-chief I'm afraid you have found another one. :(

I will get it fixed in the next update. In my defence I can only say that I have often warned folks that the gauge conversion function is less than perfect, and that the results will sometimes need tweaking. It's a feeble defence in this case, because with no change in the gauge:scale ratio it should work perfectly. Sorry about that.

It is not the shove timbers at fault. You have adjusted the V-crossing entry straight on that template, and the problem is that the length of entry straight is not being converted at all.

To fix it, on your converted template:

1. put the peg on CTRL-0.

2. go to template > V-crossing settings...

3. click OK.

4. leave your 11.98 RAM (12 CLM) angle unchanged.

5. change fixed length of entry straight in front of FP from 122.1mm to 69.77mm i.e. to 4/7ths of its previous S7 value.

The template should now be a proper conversion from S7, including the shoved timbers.

You will need to do the same on any other templates where you have adjusted the entry straight from its usual auto-fit setting.

cheers,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 8 Jul 2019 23:08
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

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p.s. Richard,

I regard this as a serious bug, so I will try to get an update fix released later today.

cheers,

Martin.


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7th message | this message only posted: 9 Jul 2019 07:40
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Thank you Martin.

The plan dates from the start of last year, so I've forgotten most of the details :( 

I had a bit of time yesterday, so I thought I'd make a start to correcting the turnout road exit lengths when I noticed some of the timbers looked incorrect. Thanks for pointing out the real reason!

Although I could just print the plan at 4/7ths size, now I have a bit more room that 4mm will give me, I can add some of the features of the original that I omitted for the 7mm version.

I'll await the update before doing any further work (I harvested some Onions instead yesterday evening)

BTW, here's a screenshot of the 7mm version:



All the best

Richard



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8th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 00:53
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Richard,

Update version 223b is now on the server. Your existing version should offer to update automatically.

The conversion bugs should be fixed -- let me know if not. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 08:01
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Thanks Martin.

I've converted the plan again from Scale 7 to S4-X and it's looking good on a quick glance over. I've noticed a few extra timbers have appeared (I'm guessing due to some of the templates lengthening slightly?), but they are easy-ish to spot, and even easier to clear up.

Again, many thanks

Richard
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10th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 14:08
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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richard_t wrote: I've noticed a few extra timbers have appearedHi Richard,

These are possibly on turnout templates having regular V-crossings and the auto-fit setting for the crossing entry straight? (i.e. the normal Templot default). If not on such turnouts, it means there might still be a bug which I need to find.

But on those turnouts there is a slight discrepancy caused by the crossing flangeway dimensions.

For S7 in Templot the flangeway is 1.05mm*. A 4/7ths conversion of that would give 0.60mm, but the crossing flangeway for S4-X is fractionally smaller than that at 0.58mm.

The auto-fit entry straight is derived from the flangeway gap (this is for model reasons, nothing to do with the prototype).

A fractionally smaller flangeway gap will result in a slightly shorter entry straight. Which in turn produces a longer turnout lead length. A whole number of timbers has to be fitted into that, and a slight lengthening can mean one extra timber is needed to avoid exceeding the maximum fill spacing.

And on all templates the track gauge conversion is fractionally out at 33mm:18.83mm.

To fix it, you could manually adjust the entry straight a fraction longer (CTRL+F12).

Or alternatively create a custom gauge/scale setting derived from S4-X with the flangeway gap modified to 0.60mm, and the track gauge modified to 18.86mm (33mm x 4/7ths), and convert from S7 to that. It would make no practical difference to S4-X track construction using gauge tools.

It needs to be fixed to get an exact alignment to the adjacent templates.

*The S7 standards currently show the flangeway gap as 1.00mm rather than 1.05mm. (But that still wouldn't convert at 4/7ths to 0.58mm.) I'm a bit mystified by this, I wouldn't have created the 1.05mm dimension out of thin air, it must have come from somewhere. But it's been that way for 20+ years, and my memory doesn't work. :(

All of which illustrates my frequent warning that the gauge conversion function is problematic, and that it is much, much better to start as you mean to go on, gauge-wise. :)

And now some lunch, and then my garden nature reserve needs some attention.

cheers,

Martin.

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11th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 14:44
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Yes I realise that I should start from scratch, but I don't think I could face that!

Anyhow, here's one example (and could be the only example). It's a gaunt template, but I'm not sure if that makes a difference. Again it's part of a larger formation:



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message ref: 27208
Attachment: gaunt_convert.box (Downloaded 16 times)
 
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12th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 15:13
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
richard_t wrote: Yes I realise that I should start from scratch, but I don't think I could face that!

Anyhow, here's one example (and could be the only example). It's a gaunt template, but I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
Hi Richard,

Thanks for the file.

It makes a difference only because it is a very long template, which makes it more vulnerable on lead length to the slight gauge discrepancy. You can see how long it is if you cancel the blanking.

On the S7 template there are 83 "T" timbers, and T83 has been omitted in the shoved timbers.

On the S4-X template, because of the gauge discrepancy, it is slightly shorter with only 82 "T" timbers. The extra one you are seeing is T82, which now falls within the unblanked visible section.

To fix it, go to gauge > modify current settings > modify track gauge ... and change the track gauge to 18.86mm, i.e. 33.0 x 4/7ths.

The extra timber will disappear, because the longer template now has 83 "T" timbers, and T83 has been omitted (as you can see if you go to the shove timbers dialog).

All par for the course, if you do gauge conversions. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 10 Jul 2019 15:26
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Thanks for the analysis - I've scrolled through the storage box, and I think I can be confident in conversion process now, so I can start modifying the plan to add some extra bits :D
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14th message | this message only posted: 23 Jul 2019 16:05
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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After converting, adding the extra bits to the plan that I couldn't accommodate in 7mm turned out easier than I thought. 

Here's a quick screenshot of where I'm at, before I start timber shoving.



In my world, Manchester Central stayed open, didn't get the track refurbishment of the late 50's. The turntable and water tower were removed in the late 60s, and the early 70's saw the closure of both CLC goods and Deansgate goods. The former flattened to make way for an open air car park, the later derelict waiting to be converted into the "Great Northern Warehouse" leisure complex in the late 90s.

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