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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > 4mm standard and Narrow Gauge Dual Gauge - OO-SF?
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                 4mm standard and Narrow Gauge Dual Gauge - OO-SF?
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2019 08:39
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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I'm planning a small layout with dual gauge standard and narrow gauge trackwork, this will involve some turnouts, with the narrow gauge track joining and leaving the standard gauge section, but also a custom built standard gauge turnout too.
Will be using code 80 rail throughout (I have a lot of Peco "crazy track" to rob)

Should I make the jump to OO-SF for the standard gauge trackwork? any pitfalls especially with the inclusion of narrow gauge flangeways etc or does the closer flangeways of OO-SF actually make sense in this application?

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2nd message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2019 11:45
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from:
Ariels Girdle
 

 

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Depends on the wheels you plan to use for the stock. Much modern NG stock (eg Bachmann) has relatively fine flanges that will run through pointwork to P4 standards (I have tried!). If you already have stock then maybe best to do your own testing as few people actually do this sort of thing and all probably have a different variety of stock.
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3rd message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2019 11:54
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Good point, at lease one NG loco will be using a Farish "08" chassis, so pretty old wheel specs.
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4th message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2019 13:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Narrow-gauge modellers often use the wheels and track standards from a smaller scale. For example 009 models at 4mm/ft typically use N gauge wheels.

It defies logic to build a model where the wheels are to a different scale from the rest of the model, but it is a popular way to build a working narrow-gauge layout.

Until that is, you want to build mixed-gauge pointwork. :(

The important point to bear in mind for mixed-gauge track is that both gauges must use the same flangeway gap, and therefore need the same or similar wheel profile.

For 00 RTR models, the practical minimum flangeway gap is 1.0mm (as 00-SF). But N gauge wheels require a flangeway gap of 0.85mm max. If they are run over crossings (frogs) having a 1.0mm gap they are going to fall into the crossings with a bump -- made worse by the small diameter of such wheels. If run over crossings having the standard 00 gap of 1.3mm they are very likely to derail.

What to do about it?

1. most sensible -- use 4mm/ft scale wheels on 4mm/ft models, regardless of the track gauge. Discard the N gauge wheels.

or

2. use sprung-wing crossings or swing-nose crossings to eliminate the flangeway gaps. Likewise use switch-diamonds for diamond-crossings. That would work very well for mixed-gauge, but it's a lot of work to do, and doesn't look right for UK narrow-gauge prototypes.

or

3. devise your own track standard to accommodate your actual models. For example if the 00 models use only kit wheels (no RTR), such as Ultrascale/Alan Gibson/Markits wheels, you could possibly get the flangeway gap down to 0.85mm to match the N gauge wheels. The 00 track standard would then be:

Check gauge: 15.2mm (same as for all 00).

Flangeway gap: 0.85mm.

Track gauge: 16.05mm.

Back-to-back:
14.6mm (Ultrascale/Alan Gibson)
14.5mm (Romford/Markits)                       

That might actually run very well for the 00 models providing there are no sharp train-set radii, but it won't work for 00 RTR wheels. Kit wheels only (and gentle curves only, if there are any Romford/Markits wheels). Gauge-widening needed for sharper curves.

cheers,

Martin. 

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5th message | this message only posted: 10 Sep 2019 13:42
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Thanks Martin (I think LOL) I didn't realise that 00-9 track had such close flangeway gaps. I'll do some experiments but might have to compromise on 1mm as RTR OO stock is necessary - even if i have to put up with the OO-9 stock dropping in the crossings .....
In some of the cases the narrow gauge rails will leave the dual gauge section away from the OO "3rd rail" so the crossing can be to OO-9 standards as there is enough room in the back to backs to allow the OO wheel to run through ....

hmmmmm

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6th message | this message only posted: 12 Sep 2019 09:22
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Had a little play last night, now this is VERY rough, I'm just working out the basic track plan at the moment but you can see the beginnings of the dual gauge track.

Only one switch blade so far .... It will get more complex very soon though as I want a short standard gauge siding roughly where the "a" is on the plan.

I realise the short length of dual gauge laid so far it far too tight a radius, this will be eased at some point. 


Much to do, but it seems that I will need at least some 1mm flangeways so OO-SF (or a version of it) looks favourite

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7th message | this message only posted: 13 Sep 2019 06:34
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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OK, getting there now, still no proper turnout templates, and frankly I have no idea how to start to convert the monster I have created.
.box file left on the laptop too so will have to make do with a photo. Note carefully (!) drawn on common crossings ....



it's in OO at the moment too, will be to OO-SF standards through the crossings with 1mm flangeways when built, probably. Next steps are to order some PCB sleepers and gauges and have a go

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8th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2019 08:19
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Good morning, I've had a look and can't see how to make a new template for dual gauge track. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Ideally OO-SF and N gauges with sleeper spacing to 4mm/ft

Thanks

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9th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2019 16:32
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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RedgateModels wrote: Good morning, I've had a look and can't see how to make a new template for dual gauge track. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Ideally OO-SF and N gauges with sleeper spacing to 4mm/ft

Thanks

You will need to create 2 templates superimposed. I would first make the OO-SF template as this has the sleepering you require. Then you will need to create a second template over it at N gauge rail spacing, but with the common rail as the reference datum. Not quite so easy as Templot uses the track center line as the reference datum. If you try to change the settings to N-gauge for the second template this will alter the flangeway widths and timber settings. The timbers of the second template can be hidden, but any turnouts will have N-gauge flangeways and not be compatible with the OO ones.
Regards
Tony.

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10th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2019 16:54
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Tony W wrote:but any turnouts will have N-gauge flangeways and not be compatible with the 00 ones.Hi Tony,

That's not the way to go, because the scales will be mixed -- a recipe for a total mess. :(

Ian, ignore all the N gauge settings. For the narrow-gauge set to 00-SF and then change the track gauge to 9mm. You can do that at gauge > modify current settings > , or you can create a custom gauge/scale setting.

That will also give you a common rail on one side.

cheers,

Martin.

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11th message | this message only posted: 14 Sep 2019 17:08
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin.
That was what I was trying to imply, obviously not very clearly.
Regards
Tony.

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12th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 07:27
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Tony W wrote:but any turnouts will have N-gauge flangeways and not be compatible with the 00 ones.Hi Tony,

That's not the way to go, because the scales will be mixed -- a recipe for a total mess. :(

Ian, ignore all the N gauge settings. For the narrow-gauge set to 00-SF and then change the track gauge to 9mm. You can do that at gauge > modify current settings > , or you can create a custom gauge/scale setting.

That will also give you a common rail on one side.

cheers,

Martin.
Many thanks Martin, I only saw your message last night after I had packed away for the day. I need to make more tweaks anyway as I noticed that one check rail would have fallen where the switch blade taking the narrow gauge away from the dual gauge section was. I moved the half turnout and promptly put it over the baseboard strengthening rib!
Do you think it will be possible to convert my rather unconventional arrangements into true turnout templates?

 

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Attachment: RpG1.box (Downloaded 2 times)
 
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13th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 09:45
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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You can see the issue in the photo, circled in red. No room for the crossing checkrail unless I fixed it to the point blade!


As I said, I've moved the narrow gauge turnout away from the main one (with the double crossings) but it looks ugly and the tie bar falls over the baseboard rib. More jiggling with the plan needed. I'll move them closer and the whole arrangement a little to the right to clear the underboard obstructions.

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14th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 11:23
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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RedgateModels wrote: You can see the issue in the photo, circled in red. No room for the crossing checkrail unless I fixed it to the point blade!



With your very tight radii,  it looks more like tramway track and in that case there wouldn't be a point blade in that position,  but what would effectively be a half "K" crossing since you don't actually need a switch between the standard and narrow gauge tracks.   If you've got a "Half K" then you will have check rails at the "K" which will check the other crossing.

Jim.

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15th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 11:51
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Like this?

Solves two problems in one go :) (apart from how to switch the crossing polarity depending on standard or narrow gauge paths)

EDIT: there is another turnout just off to the left on the narrow gauge trackwork that could be considered part of a "crossover" so I can use that crossing switch for now at least. A juicer might be better, but I'm waiting on a new test project from MERG for that.

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16th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 15:06
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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RedgateModels wrote:

Like this?

Solves two problems in one go :) (apart from how to switch the crossing polarity depending on standard or narrow gauge paths)

EDIT: there is another turnout just off to the left on the narrow gauge trackwork that could be considered part of a "crossover" so I can use that crossing switch for now at least. A juicer might be better, but I'm waiting on a new test project from MERG for that.
  That's about it. :D  And yes,  if your are using DCC,  a frog juicer is the answer.   I'm watching MERG developments with interest and hoping that their product might appear soon.

Jim.

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17th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 15:09
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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I'll see if I can make some edits tonight. Thanks Jim :)
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18th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 19:08
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from:
PRChappell
United Kingdom

 

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Martin

I have been following this topic with interest mainly out of interest only as I do with all Templot topics.
However, reading this message this evening I think there may be a wider issue here.

I have spent part of today at our local model engineers club at Colchester CSMEE) where, amongst other things, we have a raised O Gauge/Gauge 1 combined oval of track with a passing loop.

I note the comment asking for a mixed gauge template and wonder if a mixed gauge point template could be a possibility?

This might be a wider general solution, with the user specifying the two gauges, and I am sure would be useful to many users in the larger scales.  We also have a large 5/7.25" gauge track.  By ignoring the straight road the original request would also be met.

What do you think?

Kind regards to Martin and all Temploters

Peter

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19th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 19:32
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
PRChappell wrote: I note the comment asking for a mixed gauge template and wonder if a mixed gauge point template could be a possibility?

This might be a wider general solution, with the user specifying the two gauges, and I am sure would be useful to many users in the larger scales.  We also have a large 5/7.25" gauge track.  By ignoring the straight road the original request would also be met.

What do you think?
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Templot has always been able to create mixed-gauge pointwork. See for example the sample mixed-gauge crossover here:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=289&forum_id=10

The .box file can be downloaded to see how it is made up from partial templates. Here is a copy of the download link:

 http://templot.com/samples/p4_gwr_mixed_gauge.box

If you are asking for an automated function to create mixed-gauge pointwork, that would be a massive programming task, there are so many variables. The starting point in Templot is always the prototype, usually where there is mixed standard-gauge and narrow-gauge. I don't know how that would work for say mixed Gauge 0 / Gauge 1 -- what would be the model scale? What would be the timber sizes for example? The same applies to mixing 5" and 7.1/4" gauge pointwork, what would be the prototype?

Also of course, mixed-gauge pointwork must have a common flangeway gap. For say mixed Gauge 0 and Gauge 1 that would mean using spring crossings or swing-nose crossings, and switch-diamonds, to avoid any gaps.

I will have a think about what might be possible.

cheers,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 16 Sep 2019 21:09
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from:
RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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Thanks all,
more tweaks tonight and I've even started to put together a point template for the "main" dual gauge turnout. Got the crossing angle right etc but the length of the switches are too long and I need a very short if non existent approach length as there's a curve just before the blade tips...

Anyone fancy a challenge?

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21st message | this message only posted: 17 Sep 2019 06:59
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RedgateModels
Mansfield, United Kingdom



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First thoughts this morning after looking at Martin's GWR mixed gauge example is should the circled crossing be a K?


Sorry Martin, i'm still scribbling on prints at the moment .....

Oh and another question, why when I change the gauge of a template does Templot whizz it off to somewhere else, generally off screen so I think it's disappeared? It would be nice for it to stay put.

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