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                 S1J joint rail chairs
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 24 Sep 2019 18:13
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Please can anyone tell me how common was the use of these chairs (S1J  joint rail chairs) on the railways please
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2nd message | this message only posted: 24 Sep 2019 18:18
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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John,
My understanding is that S1J chairs were used on 12" joint timbers at the ends of each track panel. The S1J is 10" wide rather than the 8" of the standard S1.

Rob


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3rd message | this message only posted: 24 Sep 2019 19:25
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi John,

The use of the heavier joint chairs on wider 12" sleepers adjacent to the rail joints at each end of a track panel was common practice in the pre-group period (pre 1921).

They were often used in conjunction with shorter 9" 2-hole fishplates so that the joint sleepers could be very close together, typically at 15" centres with only a 3" gap between them. The theory being that strength in the rail support was more important than strength in the fishplate. Generally the theory fell out of favour in the light of experience. 

Here's a list of pre-group companies which used 12" sleepers at rail joints, mostly with wider joint chairs on them:

G&SWR
GCR
GER
GNR
*L&YR
LNWR
*MR
*NER
SE&CR

* = with ordinary chairs at joints.

Information from C. J. Allen, 1915.

In the post-grouping period their use fell away because it was not found to provide any advantage in reduced maintenance of rail joints to justify the extra cost. Except in special circumstances -- by 1926 the LNER drawings say "Special joint sleepers 12" x 5" may be used where the formation is soft or where the traffic is specially heavy and fast". Their drawing shows a S1-J joint chair used on such sleepers, but with normal 18" 4-hole fishplates and sleepers at 24" centres.

So not so likely to be found on a secondary lines by the start of the BR period, but of course on such lines the original pre-grouping track would have lasted much longer between renewals. How long depends on individual circumstances. Very quiet branch lines might have retained joint sleepers and short fishplates right up to closure.  

More info in these topics:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2661&forum_id=1

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3331&forum_id=1

cheers,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 06:21
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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S1J chairs where also used in switch and crossings as well as plain track. Some sample figures from "Standard Railway Equipment - Permanent Way"

A7 turnout : 13 S1J chairs
B8 turnout : 13 or 9 depending on which diagram
C10 turnout : 15
D12 turnout : 11/14/16 the text is a bit hard to read.
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5th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 08:06
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Martin

Thanks for an enlarged explanation than before and just goes to prove that the further you dig for information the more complicated it gets.

Rob thanks for your input

Richard
Thanks for this info, out of interest on a B8 turnout which timber positions would the S1J chairs be please. I can think of 4 on each of the stock rail sides

The turnout plans I have with chair details on them (C&L and Exactoscale) fail to show them

I do have some S1J chairs with the Off The Rails chairs I bought, but these chairs do not seem to be in any of the Exactoscale range or on the chair position data they provide
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6th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 08:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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richard_t wrote: S1J chairs where also used in switch and crossings as well as plain track. Some sample figures from "Standard Railway Equipment - Permanent Way"

A7 turnout : 13 S1J chairs
B8 turnout : 13 or 9 depending on which diagram
C10 turnout : 15
D12 turnout : 11/14/16 the text is a bit hard to read.
Thanks Richard.

Yes, the REA drawings show S1-J joint chairs used at all rail joints within pointwork, except where some other chair is needed instead such as a block chair, L1 bridge chair, check chair, etc.

In practice the usage of joint chairs was a bit more random and not always matching the drawings.

Most obviously noticeable were the joint chairs at the switch front joint*, and at the ends of the vee rails.

It's difficult to find pictures of 12" joint sleepers and chairs at the ends of a track panel, but this LNER pic from Mick Nicholson shows such a sleeper and also S1-J chairs on the switch front:



Notice the S1-J chairs on the first timber beyond the switch tips, which is not per drawing.

edited: The middle joint chair on the right-hand side of the picture is broken on the inside and has a loose chair screw.

*Some pre-group switches had ordinary 10" sleepers at the switch front (Templot has an option for that in the switch settings), in which case ordinary S1 chairs would be used there.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 08:27
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from:
John Palmer
 

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Notice the S1-J chairs on the first timber beyond the switch tips, which is not per drawing. The one on the right-hand side of the picture is broken on the inside and has a loose chair screw.Tsk! Tsk!  Looks like the lengthman has been a bit remiss here.  I can't see anything wrong on the first timber beyond the switch tips, but the timber immediately adjacent to the joint is apparently the one with a broken-off section of the right hand chair, and neither of the outside chair screws screwed full home.  Perhaps that was the cause of the chair's fracture.  And this on what seems to be a running line, judging by the track circuit bonding across the joint.

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8th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 08:46
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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John Palmer wrote: Martin Wynne wrote: Notice the S1-J chairs on the first timber beyond the switch tips, which is not per drawing. The one on the right-hand side of the picture is broken on the inside and has a loose chair screw.Tsk! Tsk!  Looks like the lengthman has been a bit remiss here.  I can't see anything wrong on the first timber beyond the switch tips, but the timber immediately adjacent to the joint is apparently the one with a broken-off section of the right hand chair, and neither of the outside chair screws screwed full home.  Perhaps that was the cause of the chair's fracture.  And this on what seems to be a running line, judging by the track circuit bonding across the joint.Thanks John. Sorry about my mistake. That's what happens when you try to post a reply with one hand while eating breakfast. :)

I have now edited my original.

p.s. I'm not entirely sure that the first timber beyond the switch tips is 12" wide. The S1-J chair appears to be flush with its edge, which means it is only a 10" wide sleeper. Also not per drawing.

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 08:52
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from:
richard_t
Nr. Spalding, South Holland, United Kingdom



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Hmmm what a minefield...

Diagram No 100 lists a B8 as having 13 S1J chairs, but doesn't show them on the diagram and 100A lists it having 9 S1J but does.

So from 100A, they are the first joint sleeper (J2 in templot); just before the crossing joint on the inner two rails (T13); just after the crossing joint on the main crossing rail only (X1-Z) at on all exit roads (X9).

Diagram No 9 which is just a B-switch doesn't have any S1J chairs, Diagram No 32 which is the 1:8 crossing, again shows no S1J chairs. 

Diagram 9 and 32 are dated July 1926. Diagram 100 is dated Jan 1927, and Diagram 100A is dated Sept 1928.

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10th message | this message only posted: 25 Sep 2019 15:39
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from:
Hayfield
United Kingdom

 

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Thanks everyone, this is getting very interesting (for me anyway).
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11th message | this message only posted: 27 Sep 2019 03:11
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
There's a great pic of S1-J and S1 chairs side-by-side here:

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78411-prototype-for-everything-corner/&do=findComment&comment=3652791

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 27 Sep 2019 14:06
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote: There's a great pic of S1-J and S1 chairs side-by-side here:

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78411-prototype-for-everything-corner/&do=findComment&comment=3652791

Martin.
I recognize that - the chair moved while I was trying to get the track gauges on :D Putting the weld in the middle of the sleeper position wasn't clever and the bolts are loose !

You can see the marks on the wood where the machine drags them around while they are being creosoted - not seen those on 4mm scale sleepers.....

Rob


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