click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
  Important Privacy Information cookie information pre-print options:    

 click image to open Templot Club in a new tab             Search           remove page highlighting
Templot club top logo
  looking for help ? -- -- --
looking for Templot? - (free)


enjoy using Templot? - 

 you are not logged in  - Login | Join

receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  SourceForge  TemplotMEC  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            messages archive on Yahoo
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Saunderton
Templot web site

                 Saunderton
     
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
1st message | this message only posted: 2 May 2020 21:44
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
With some swearing, some frustration but with the software sort of clicking with me a few times, my first effort attached.  Any feedback gratefully received.  In particular, I struggled to join two of the turnouts together with a plain piece of track (just above the diamond).  Suspect I may also need to learn how to transition between pieces better.  Not sure if it's possible to exactly follow the lines on the 6" maps but I've tried to keep as close as possible.

David



__________
message ref: 29509
Attachment: Saunderton v5.mecbox (Downloaded 25 times)
 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
2nd message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 07:17
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Gwynne wrote: Not sure if it's possible to exactly follow the lines on the 6" maps but I've tried to keep as close as possible.Hi David,

The 6" maps are generally too small to use for model track planning. The smallest maps which can be used tend to be the 25" maps (1:2500).

Saunderton station opened in 1901 which was too late to appear on the NLS georeferenced slippy 25" map of the area. But they do have it on their single "Find by place" sheets for 1919:

 https://maps.nls.uk/view/104183051#zoom=7&lat=1372&lon=10180&layers=BT

 https://maps.nls.uk/view/104183072#zoom=7&lat=10370&lon=10966&layers=BT

Templot can load these maps for you and display them correctly scaled as a background guide for track planning. Click the background > maps menu item:



Getting to this stage can be a bit of a palaver for the single sheet maps, especially if the track plan crosses a sheet join, but Templot includes all the functions you need to capture the maps, scale, twist, align and crop them for use. I will maybe make a bit of video showing all of that.

Here I have started aligning a bit of track over the map. You can see that Templot has got it correctly scaled to 4mm/ft, although a perfectly scaled track plan won't be possible in 00 gauge because the gauge difference causes changes in the length of pointwork.

I also used Templot's low-contrast function on the image to make it easier to see what you are doing when working over it:



However, before you get to this stage I strongly recommend that you learn to use Templot's many functions before attempting to align tracks over a background map. Otherwise you are likely to end up throwing your computer out of the window. :)

I make this point over and over again, but of course no-one ever takes any notice. Time and again beginners start trying to learn Templot AND create their intended model track plan at the same time.

For example you have probably already discovered on the plan you posted that the snap join functions are not the way to get smoothly flowing pointwork, and definitely not if aligning over a map.

It's much better to use the split and insert functions to create a track plan, as in this video:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=QBDJMDgdiC7PwRqLS2U3jg2

Notice that at no time in the video are two separate templates joined together.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29512

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
3rd message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 09:08
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin for your swift response. First of all, an apology as I mislead you in terms of the map I used. I had uploaded and stitched together the “find by place” 1919 maps which I hadn’t appreciated weren’t 6”one! Thanks for confirming that OO won’t fit exactly. I had expected that it wouldn’t quite work.
Fully appreciate your comments about learning the software before trying to design and I’ve been doing that to an extent by trying stuff off line and I’d used the method in that video of using the crossover function but good to watch it again! Particularly for seeing how to use some of the splitting and branching type functions.

Thanks also for the answer on linking. I can see that works now. For long curves, is it best to try and do in as long a pieces and possible?

I’ll try again tonight once the kids are in bed!

David
__________
message ref: 29515

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
4th message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 15:10
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Gwynne wrote: Thanks for confirming that 00 won’t fit exactly. I had expected that it wouldn’t quite workHi David,

The historic OS 25" maps need to be used with care, but they are often quite good and don't deserve the criticism they sometimes receive. In any event, in many cases they are the best we have, and it's great that the NLS now make almost the whole country available, and free for personal use.

The most accurate parts of the maps are the marked switch toes. They will have been surveyed by chaining along the tracks, and length-wise can be taken to be accurate, unless you have clear photographic evidence to the contrary:



V-crossing noses are not often explicitly marked, so their apparent position is determined by the accuracy of the drawn rail lines, which can often leave something to be desired.

It's easy to see if the track gauge has been drawn accurately to scale, by aligning a P4 (or S7 etc.) template over it. If it is, it's reasonable to assume that the track spacing is also drawn to scale. If not, you can usually assume that the track is at 6ft way (11ft-2in centres) for running lines unless there is some obvious reason for it not to be, such as a bridge pier between the tracks, or a line originally constructed to broad gauge. Or sometimes a signal post (marked S.P.) between the tracks. For loops and sidings alongside running lines, they should be at least 9ft way (14ft-2in centres) and properly 10ft way (15ft-2in centres).

It's also useful to refer to the signal box diagram, if possible. Here is the diagram for Saunderton:

 https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/S73.htm

From which it is clear that the loop has trailing connections from both the up and down lines, but using a plain diamond-crossing, not a slip crossover.

For 00 gauge, the best approach is to design the basic track plan first in P4. Align the switch tips with the marked switch toes on the map (not the stretcher bar or the switch front rail joint -- the switch tips are marked across the rails on the templates). Then adjust the size of turnouts for the best match to the plan.

Then for each P4 turnout, put the peg on the CTRL-3 DP position. Put the notch under it for each template in turn. There are 12 slots in notch register, which should be enough for the critical turnouts in most track plans.

Then convert the plan to 00 gauge (or 0-MF from S7, etc.), using the button on the gauge list dialog.

Plain track will convert accurately, but there will be some discrepancies in the pointwork alignments. For each 00 turnout, put the peg on CTRL-3, cycle the notch to that position, and peg the 00 turnout onto it.

 geometry > notch > cycle recent notch locations menu item.

Finally tidy up the template boundaries to the new 00 alignments. The switch tips will no longer exactly coincide with the toe marks on the map, but it will be the best overall match to the map for 00 gauge.

p.s. I noticed you are using 00-BF gauge. Many track builders in 00 now prefer 4-SF (00-SF), but 00-BF is fine if you plan to use only RTR wheels (no kit wheels). 

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29522

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
5th message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 15:33
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin. That makes sense to start with P4 then shift back toward OO. I’m planning on using a mix of kit built and new RTR and (naively perhaps) assumed that if it worked for RTR, that it’d be ok for kit built stock. By the sounds of it, I’d be better using sf?

David
__________
message ref: 29523

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
6th message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 15:50
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Gwynne wrote: I’m planning on using a mix of kit built and new RTR and (naively perhaps) assumed that if it worked for RTR, that it’d be ok for kit built stock. By the sounds of it, I’d be better using sf? Hi David,

If you use any kit wheels you will get better running on 00-SF, and the narrower flangeways look better. But it does mean checking RTR wheel back-to-backs for compliance, some RTR quality control leaves a lot to be desired. But most modern RTR runs fine on 00-SF as-is.

There is lots of discussion about 00-SF on RMweb (some of the older topics got a bit heated).

If you haven't seen it, you might like to look at Stoke Courtenay using 00-SF:



or video full screen:

 https://www.youtube.com/embed/9g-Qr-u8YKE?rel=0

(topic is 40+ pages -- this one is just a sample):

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112547-stoke-courtenay/page/34/

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29524

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
7th message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 16:12
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin

Yes, I follow Stoke Courtenay which I think is a beautiful layout. Hadn’t realised it was OO-SF. I’ll be frank - I tend to avoid the gauge discussion threads on RmWeb for that very reason! It’s often hard to actually get the succinct answers you need!
Cheers

David
__________
message ref: 29525

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
8th message | this message only posted: 3 May 2020 19:12
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides
Also Gordon's Eastwood Town, now that he's actually got a running layout. Watch him rip it all up and start again.

Cheers

Phil
__________
message ref: 29526

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
9th message | this message only posted: 4 May 2020 22:23
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Well, Ive played around with transition curves, checked overall alignments with P4, using the insert onto plain technique rather than snapping and joining.  I think this looks a bit better.  I think it matches up reasonably well with the underlying map and is certainly representative of it which is the primary objective.  As I'm going for OO, ultimately, it can't be exact and I'm not going to quibble over a few feet here and there. (plus my map joins may be a bit shaky if you really zoom it!)

Understanding snaking and sliding helps.  I'm a bit concerned about the transition curve between the two crossings immediately in front of the signal box as it was a bit of a faff to get it to join and then it needed resizing so as it didn't cover the turnouts at either end.  I also had to rotate the right hand end of the crossing slightly to get it to the right location.  I presume that unlike set track, a diamond crossing doesn't have to be exactly symmetrical?

Probably a few more things to work on. Notably I need to get to grips with how timbering works both in prototype and in templot.

Have to admit, I'm quite enjoying it!  Once you master the interface, its more intuitive and less frustrating that the set track planners I've fiddled with before.  It's particularly satisfying to match a real map.

Cheers

David



__________
message ref: 29541
Attachment: Saunderton v6.mecbox (Downloaded 16 times)
 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
10th message | this message only posted: 5 May 2020 00:43
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi David,

Thanks for posting your file.

I'm afraid there are some quite serious dog-legs and misalignments there. :(

It's all fairly straightforward to do really, but learning Templot over a map doesn't help.

Sorry, I don't quite follow your question about the diamond-crossing. If you use the tools > make ladder crossover function off the turnout, Templot does it all for you with everything in alignment.

I'm going to make a new video based on that track plan to replace the very old video which I linked earlier. It's been overdue for a re-make for years.

But I can't do it for a day or two I'm afraid. I've had a long day on the computer today getting a program update finished, which I'm hoping to release tomorrow. After which I have some jobs to do away from the computer. But I will get back to it soon.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29544

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
11th message | this message only posted: 5 May 2020 07:43
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin - I was worried I’d made some basic errors! Still I’m enjoying learning it! Really appreciate your help. Look forward to the new video.

On the crossover, I’d used the ladder function and when overlaid, the exit on the lower right hand side as you look at the screen was diverging away from the track on the underlying map. Therefore I selected the right hand side of the crossing and found I could rotate it so as the tracks now aligned. I’ll try and draw it later to illustrate!

Kind regards

David
__________
message ref: 29545

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
12th message | this message only posted: 5 May 2020 12:03
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Gwynne wrote: Therefore I selected the right hand side of the crossing and found I could rotate it so as the tracks now aligned.Hi David,

You can't rotate one half of a diamond-crossing with respect to the other and expect vehicles to make it across the K-crossings!

And in the process you have broken the connection to the turnout. :(

If the diamond-crossing template doesn't match the map, the most likely reasons are:

1. the map is wrong. The 25" maps can only ever be a rough guide, they are too small to be copied exactly. The only detail you can reasonably rely on is the lengthwise position of the switch toes (blade tips). Everything else should be treated very warily as nothing more than an approximation.

And even then the switch toes will only work if you are using an exact-scale track gauge such as P4 or S7. And strictly speaking you should also switch to CLM angles.

2. the turnout template is wrong. It might be the wrong crossing angle, or not properly aligned to the running line.

Or both of those things could be wrong. Or other things could be wrong, such as the track spacings.

This is why it is a nightmare trying to align tracks over a map if you haven't first learned to use all the functions in Templot.

I do strongly urge beginners NOT to use a background map straight off. Learn to use Templot first. Otherwise you will end up tearing your hair out and throwing the computer out of the window.

Templot is great fun to learn and use. But only if you let it go with the flow on a blank sheet as you learn. Forcing it to conform to a prototype map is hard work and needs a good understanding of prototype trackwork.

This is from the Templot download page:



I shall have to find some way to make it flash bright orange. :)

p.s. have you seen this page:

 http://templot.com/companion/basic_working_methods.php

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29551

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
13th message | this message only posted: 11 May 2020 19:42
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin

I've been looking again at a track plan. To avoid misalignments, dog-legs are there any diagnostic tools that can be run through templot or is it all by mark 1 eyeball? If so, I'd like to run them before I post again!

I've tried to build the plan off one long curve into which I've then inserted turnout templates to build the plan up. For the crossing, I used the "make diamond at intersection" function which seemed straightforward. Are there pitfalls I should be aware of?

Cheers

David
__________
message ref: 29630

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
14th message | this message only posted: 11 May 2020 22:21
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
David Gwynne wrote: To avoid misalignments, dog-legs are there any diagnostic tools that can be run through Templot or is it all by mark 1 eyeball? If so, I'd like to run them before I post again!Hi David,

I haven't forgotten you. :)

I'm in the middle of making a video based on Saunderton.

You don't need to use a mark1 eyeball for a simple plan like that. Templot keeps everything aligned if you let it do the work, even if it doesn't exactly match the map. It's more likely that the map is wrong if it's a small 25" OS map rather than a proper railway company plan.

I don't know what you did to create the misalignments, so it's difficult to say what you did wrong. I will try to get the video finished tomorrow and then you can see what your problem was.

In making the video, I've realised just how clunky it can be for beginners to set the 10ft way for sidings alongside running lines, so I'm also working on another program update to re-work those dialogs. Which means the video might be out of date in a few more days time, but I can't make you wait any longer.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29633

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
15th message | this message only posted: 11 May 2020 22:26
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks Martin, much appreciated. I've no idea what I did either. I largely explore by looking at the different menus and then searching for that instruction to see what it does. I did also watch the intro video you sent the link to!

Kind regards

David
__________
message ref: 29634

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
16th message | this message only posted: 12 May 2020 19:22
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi David,

Here is a scruff video showing the creation of a track plan of Saunderton.

Scruff means that I haven't done as much editing of mis-clicks and mouse fumbles as I intended, but I want to make some changes in the next program update before making a proper video.

Here's the link:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=YB0K8b4SCkWSA2UnXoq4Vw2

If anything is unclear, just ask. :)

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 29648

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
17th message | this message only posted: 12 May 2020 20:19
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
David Gwynne
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Hi Martin

Many thanks for the video.  Very interesting and informative.  Alongside the older one that drew on top of a sketch, it really helps to show how to bring a plan together.  I need to watch it a couple more times to go through some of the finer points.  I hadn't appreciated how you could use the programme to join two pieces of pointwork together.  Also, showing how to do the spacings properly is very helpful.  In my own meanderings yesterday, I'd cottoned onto the technique of using branch tracks to join pieces together on an alignment. 

My learning technique, honed on using excel and powerpoint, is to look at menus and to try and see what may be of use to me.  There were a couple of things I found that looked useful.  Firstly, the "make double track" function seemed to draw a parallel set of tracks.  I then found that if I roamed a turnout to the right location on the up line, added a branch towards the siding, I could use the peg/align tool to make a diamond crossing at the intersection.  I then manually shortened the plain track to the end of the crossing where it looked reasonably aligned to me.  Is that the right way of using that function (albeit I can see the ladder crossing method is simpler).  With the ladder, I'd struggled to get the join to the next turnout aligned hence I tried an alternative.

Looking at my plan from yesterday, now attached, I think my siding may be too close to my main line?  Also, I note that some of my point sizes are slightly different to the ones you used.  I'll go back through and rework!

Once again many thanks.  The more I use it, the easier I find it albeit I'll be the first to admit that I'm on a steep learning curve for the technical terms within pointwork!

Kind regards

David 

__________
message ref: 29650
Attachment: Saunderton 051120.mecbox (Downloaded 83 times)
 
This is topic ID = 3655     Page created at 21:41 (local time)  
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2020  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems