Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3667Exporting a track plan to create a mimic panel
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posted: 13 May 2020 09:59

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin/Fellow Templotters
I've decided to build a mimic panel for Eastwood Town as I'm struggling to mentally convert the schematic diagram within my ECoS controller to the totally curved shape of my own layout. I now have the required amount of LED's and controllers from DCC Concepts, so thought I'd make a start on creating the track plan.

My first thought was to use Sketchboard, but once I started to enlarge the panel, the track edges became jagged. The final mimic panel is going to be something like 800mm long by 400mm deep. I can't say the exact size as it's going to be governed by the need to place LED's within the track lines. The bezels of the LED's are 7mm diameter. In total there will be at least 72 LED's on the panel showing the turnout detection of 36 turnouts.

What is the best way of accomplishing this? Ideally I would like to add six platform faces and text to show lines to the MPD and hidden storage traverser.

All ideas grateful accepted......

posted: 13 May 2020 12:47

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

From memory your roundy-roundy layout is squarish, about 15ft/4500mm square?

A panel 800mm x 400mm isn't the least bit squarish, so I'm wondering what you have in mind. Is the whole layout going on one panel? Or several panels?

With 7mm dia LEDs, the closest track spacing to keep things looking clear is probably at 5mm centres. If your layout track spacing is 50mm, that means the scale of the mimic diagram is 1:10. So that would mean a diagram 450mm square. Which 800x400 isn't?

Templot has a function to draw the track centre-lines only, at any width, irrespective of the gauge of the rails (and in the marker colours), which may help you make a panel.

Can you post a screenshot of what you mean by jagged track edges? That may just be your screen resolution, it would print smooth.

Traditionally a steam-era railway would be controlled from a signal box diagram and a row of levers. :)

Templot and sketchboard can produce some very nice-looking signal box diagrams. But not from an existing track plan, it needs to be re-drawn as a signal box diagram all in plain track templates, something like this:

slip2.gifslip2.gif

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 May 2020 13:43

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. ET is 18' x 14', but I plan to cut off the bottom end of the plan as that is just plain track. Looking at the drawing I have in front of me the aspect ratio is probably 3:2.

The dimensions were off the top of my head, so probably 600 x 400.

In terms of jagged edges, I was looking at an enlarged .png print on my screen which is set at 1920 x 1080 resolution. I'm not a computer/graphics expert, so there may be a better file type to export.

Here's a pic from my screen showing what I meant.

479_130823_550000000.jpg479_130823_550000000.jpg


The problem I have is mentally transferring a straight line schematic as per block diagrams, into the curved layout of my own track work. Remember it is spread over three sides and some of the turnouts may be 10' away from the control point and I have no chance of seeing if I have operated the correct one, even if they do show on the ECoS plan.

To give you an idea of what I'm looking at on the ECoS, this is one end...

479_130840_220000000.jpg479_130840_220000000.jpg


To overcome this, I will use a large mimic panel as the first stage and continue to switch via the ECoS diagram. Hopefully, the mimic diagram which will replicate the actual track layout will at least allow me to check things before accidents happen.

If that doesn't work, then I'll go the whole hog and incorporate DCC Concepts Alpha toggle switches into the mimic panel and not use the ECoS diagram at all.

If I were to use a signal box type layout (and it might be better on one plan, versus the ECoS on two) then the length would possibly have to double to bring in both approaches as the plan is opened out.

I would then need to forget the actual layout of the track work completely and just focus on the diagram. That may be easier once all the LED's are in place as then I can see the route settings easily, rather than trying to make sense of the ECoS plan.

I hope that makes sense..... 
Last edited on 13 May 2020 15:53 by Gordon S
posted: 13 May 2020 14:21

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

I'm afraid we are on different planets. :(

What is an ECoS? What is an Alpha toggle switch? Clearly I need to spend some time on Google before I can write a sensible reply.

Regarding the jaggies, a PNG is a bitmap file, so to get a smoother zoomed result you would need to increase the image size. Increase these width dots, maybe double or treble these figures:

2_130909_300000000.png2_130909_300000000.png

or from the sketchboard:

2_130909_570000000.png2_130909_570000000.png

However, it would be much better to export a vector file rather than a bitmap. That means an EMF metafile or a PDF file. Those can be zoomed smoothly to any size. But they can't physically be displayed smoother than the resolution of the display device (screen or printer). Your printer is likely to have a much higher resolution than your screen, especially if you use the photo printing option on glossy paper.

I assumed to print your mimic panel you would export a PDF from the sketchboard, and take it to your local sign printer to print on laminate?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 May 2020 15:18

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Apologies....
An ECoS is dual control DCC system made by ESU in Germany.

479_130959_020000000.jpg479_130959_020000000.jpg

It will allow you drive up to 10 trains at once (if you're completely bonkers). I've yet to do it, but you can upload graphics of each loco, which makes it easy to visually identify locos. You can hold a hundred or so locos in the memory and just keep moving them to the front display as you need them. You can programme all CV's etc and all your turnouts, signals and other accessories through the two DCC bus wires.

Part of the system is the track control page, shown here.

479_131004_170000000.jpg479_131004_170000000.jpg

....and this is what I'm struggling with.

DCC Concepts supply a whole raft of products and have possibly realised there is an opening for DCC control via conventional switches. (For guys like me, whose eyesight maybe less than 100% or who are not computer literate, but enjoy all the advantages of DCC control).

I have been talking to them and they sent me this pdf file attached. It shows a mimic panel, ECoS and toggle switches. PDF attachment below.

I hope that all makes sense.....

"I assumed to print your mimic panel you would export a PDF from the sketchboard, and take it to your local sign printer to print on laminate?"

Possibly, once I know what is needed and then worked on the drawing to add all the notes I require. Platforms and text boxes would be a starting point plus a station totem 'Eastwood Town'. I want to do all that and be 100% happy with the design before contacting a printer.

I could print the sheets off here, carefully align them and then cover it with a perspex sheet, before drilling all the holes etc for the LED's and switches.

I will play around with the Sketchboard signal diagram and see if that makes sense. Can you give me some clues where to start.....:D

I can't see anything in the Sketchboard menu, but then I don't know what I'm looking for.

Thanks for your time and reply. Much appreciated.
Attachment: attach_3045_3667_ECoS_and_Toggle_Switches_with_Mimic_option.pdf     99
Last edited on 13 May 2020 15:50 by Gordon S
posted: 13 May 2020 15:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the explanations and PDF.

If I understand it, you want to use a toggle switch, via some electronics, to control a point motor through the DCC bus?

Would it not be 10 times simpler to connect the toggle switch directly to the point motor? :?

Also it seems to be duplication to have a toggle switch AND indicator LEDs?

Why not use rotary switches with a pointer knob in the traditional model railway fashion? The pointer then shows which way the points are set, and you don't need anything else?

These from RS, but no doubt cheaper/smaller elsewhere:

 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/potentiometer-knobs/4672384/

 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/0316800A/

That's a 2-pole rotary switch, so you could use one pole to control the motor, and the other to inform the ECoS system which way it is set.

However, none of that is relevant to your actual question, which is about creating the sketchboard output for a mimic panel from your Templot plan. If you post a relevant bit of .box file here, i.e. the part of it that you would want on a mimic panel (group > save group), I will see what to suggest. The graphics, platforms and text stuff is easy -- you could have an entire Word file on the sketchboard if you wanted:

2_210838_270000003.png2_210838_270000003.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 May 2020 16:29

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the explanations and PDF.

If I understand it, you want to use a toggle switch, via some electronics, to control a point motor through the DCC bus?

Would it not be 10 times simpler to connect the toggle switch directly to the point motor? :?

Also it seems to be duplication to have a toggle switch AND indicator LEDs?

Why not use rotary switches with a pointer knob in the traditional model railway fashion? The pointer then shows which way the points are set, and you don't need anything else?

These from RS, but no doubt cheaper/smaller elsewhere:

 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/potentiometer-knobs/4672384/

 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/0316800A/

That's a 2-pole rotary switch, so you could use one pole to control the motor, and the other to inform the ECoS system which way it is set.

However, none of that is relevant to your actual question, which is about creating the sketchboard output for a mimic panel from your Templot plan. If you post a relevant bit of .box file here, i.e. the part of it that you would want on a mimic panel (group > save group), I will see what to suggest. The graphics, platforms and text stuff is easy -- you could have an entire Word file on the sketchboard if you wanted.

cheers,

Martin.

I really hope that is all tongue in cheek.....:D

I have gone down the full DCC route for a dozen reasons, not least of which is route setting and possible full computer control to run trains whilst I'm pottering around in the goods yard or engine shed.

Conventional DC control as you describe, is what I had originally had and to go forwards, meant going back a couple of steps first. All the turnouts have Tortoise motors controlled by DCC decoders. With 60 turnouts over such a large area, the amount of wiring alone was huge, so decision made and no going back....:D

I want LED's as I can't see lines or pointers on rotary switches.....and I want simple visual mapping where you can see at a glance which incoming line is going to which platform and where it will leave, hence they are my preferred choice. I fully accept it doesn't suit everyone, but decision made....:D

The box file is attached. The back of the layout is simply four lines, so I plan to move the odd bits of the pointwork towards ET station and not show the back loops on the mimic panel, hence my 3:2 ratio. As the overall length is 5.3m, it should fit on a 600 x 400 sheet if your 1:10 scaling is correct.

I've just printed off a PDF and that looks fine. 

I have a few questions re platforms and would appreciate some guidance. 

How do you infill the platform shape as a colour and I'm a bit confused with island or dual faced platforms. 

If I understand correctly, you open a piece of track and then choose main side or turnout side. There is a measurement from the platform edge to the track, but as far as I can see that relates to the track you are working from. How do you select the gap the other side of the platform, so that it remains a constant width from the rail edge? I can see the width could do that if both tracks were parallel, but with non parallel tracks, the platform line on one side, wouldn't remain a constant width with the track on the other side of the platform. Does that make sense?

How do I deal with bay platforms as in ET? The central platform has bays each end and a solid middle section. Do I have to build that up as separate blocks?

Sorry for so many questions today, but if you only run Templot two or three times a year, it's easy to forget how you did things.



Attachment: attach_3046_3667_ET_Mimic_Plan.box     99
Last edited on 13 May 2020 16:49 by Gordon S
posted: 13 May 2020 17:15

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Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Gordon,

You may be slightly circumspect with the chosen dimensions for you control panel. The one I've included below is 740mm x 220mm, and covers only a small portion (one station) on the SR7mm Group layout. You certainly have more trackwork to include on your plan so it may well be a tight squeeze.
However, to give you an idea of how we overcame a few things, there is a mixture of both circular and rectangular LED's and toggle switches. In this instance though, the toggle switches are only there to isolate sections (DC Layout). We did use smaller circular LED's to indicate whether points were normal or reversed. For any particular point there are typically two LED's on the main (normal) route, and one on the reversed route. The first LED, at the toe of the point is bi-colour white/red. The second LED is white, with the LED on the reversed route being red. Therefore, for a normal route setting, all LED's show white. When a point or crossover is reversed, the LED's indicate red. For our group, the larger LED's indicate which particular controller will be in use for any given route, based on route selection.
The rectangular LED's are used as Train In Section indicators.

All the panels we have had so far to this design, have been manufactured for us by Parc Signs in Cornwall, who also made a panel for the Bluebell Railway. All the white circles and rectangles on the panel are printed through as clear, as we have mounted the LED's at the rear on a separate sheet, and this works very well.

The design work was carried out by myself using Microsoft Publisher and exported to Parc Signs as a .pdf.  

1951_131155_430000000.png1951_131155_430000000.png
As Martin has pointed out, if you utilise rotary switches for your points, you can also add LED's to indicate N (Normal) and R (Reversed). The image below, shows another one of our control panels doing just that.

1951_131215_080000000.png1951_131215_080000000.png


I hope the above is of some use to you.

Regards,

Ian

posted: 13 May 2020 17:27

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

Yes, a little bit tongue-in-cheek. :)

Sorry if I touched a raw nerve there, but for me the real pleasure of a steam-era model would be in the polished brass handles, varnished wood, shiny levers, the hiss of a signal wire in anticipation of the next train...

Back to reality.

The idea for an island platform is that it is two platforms, one along each of the tracks on either side. They don't need to be parallel or straight. Using the controls on the dialog you set the width at each end so that they overlap all along somewhere down the middle, then switch off the rear and/or end edges so that when output they appear to be a single platform, like this:

2_131219_160000000.png2_131219_160000000.png

2_131219_370000000.png2_131219_370000000.png

The platform colour can be changed to whatever you want.

The dotted lines show which edges have been switched off and won't print, the solid lines show the final visible outline of the platform:

2_131240_290000000.png2_131240_290000000.png

I need to make a video about all this. And the sketchboard is still waiting for some instructions... :(

Thanks for the .box file. I will have a look and see what it might look like on a mimic panel.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 May 2020 18:51

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks for taking the time, Ian, to show me your mimic panel. I will take a look at a straight line diagram, as in one piece rather than the two on the ECoS it will be easier to read. There will be four lines coming in, that widen to seven in the centre and four going out. I have ordered and received the DCC Concepts Mimic packs with green LED's and just want to see a nice line of green LED's running right across the whole board. I was tempted to have the up lines in green and the down in blue or red, but just leave the 'closed' lines switched off with no colour.

Likewise, thanks Martin, I understand where you are coming from, but having made a decision (a fairly expensive one at that), I've still ended up with something that falls short for me. Nothing wrong with the product at all, the problems are all mine and age related.....:-)

I'm constantly reminded of the traveller going through Ireland who was lost and decided to ask a local the best way to Dublin. Of course the answer was 'I wouldn't start from here..."

I could also say, I have all the right bits, but not necessarily in the right order....

I am where I am and I need to see this through, so really appreciate your input in making the journey as least stressful as possible....:D

With any luck I'll take another look at platforms again tonight. What you have said makes sense. I was continually trying to get the various lines to line up and not overlap. No wonder I needed a beer at 5pm....



posted: 13 May 2020 20:23

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

As you know, Templot includes functions for straightening and wrapping images. As a first stab I tried straightening an exported image from the top section of your plan, and then stretching it a bit deeper:

gordon_straightened_top_9000x1800.pnggordon_straightened_top_9000x1800.png
gordon_straightened_top_9000x1800.pnggordon_straightened_top_9000x1800.png

The bottom section of your plan could go below it on the mimic panel.

It's 9000 x 1800 dots, so should print smoothly up to about 30" wide. At that size it would be quite smooth, like this:

2_131515_310000000.png2_131515_310000000.png

This is just a first stab, we could change the colours for different lines, etc., to whatever you want. I think I can also improve the sweep of the tracks with some trial and error in the straightener.

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 May 2020 21:41

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, only just seen your post. I’m not a late night person, so will take a look at it tomorrow. Interestingly enough, I’m coming round to a single straight line plan, as long as it is all in one piece and not split into two.
Four into seven and then back to four could work. Part of the problem I now realise is that the schematic in the ECoS is based on a grid system and is split in two. I said earlier that I could probably cope looking at the mimic and ignoring the layout. The ECoS doesn’t show platforms or any text and it doesn’t really cope with positions of turnouts relative to each other. Providing I can see an in, through and out on one diagram and lit accordingly, it may well be an option.

I would prefer either a replica of the actual track plan or a single straight line schematic. I know it’s early days, but the ‘straightened’ version of ET in your post is quite confusing in its own way. I’m not ruling it out, but want to explore both options tomorrow and then I can give a better view.

posted: 14 May 2020 13:59

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Right, spent most of the morning in creating another plan using Templot itself, as I don't really know how to draw the plan in Sketchboard and it wasn't that obvious.
I now have one end of ET complete in diagram form. I'm sure it wasn't the best way of doing it, but quicker for me than learning a whole new process. 

I'm happy the way it is looking, but this is only half and measures something like 16' on Templot which probably means 10m. I was thinking that's bigger than the existing ET, but of course this includes the whole of one side plus half the station...:D

What concerns me is that at 1:50, it could make the panel 2m long, unless we reduce it further. Is it possible to widen the track sections, so that once reduced 7mm LED's would still fit?

I guess there may be ways of compressing things a little more, but the relationship of one turnout to the other is very important.

Over to you for suggestions....

479_140857_050000000.jpg479_140857_050000000.jpg

posted: 14 May 2020 14:35

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

I wanted to suggest that re-drawing it on the straight in Templot was the only way to get what you want, but I thought it would be too much work.

Don't worry about the aspect ratio, it's easy to stretch it to fit a panel. This is just a quick re-size:

2_140928_510000000.png2_140928_510000000.png

With some teaking we can remove the fuzziness. The main thing is to get the .box files done. Use the shortest turnouts you can, say a 9ft straight switch with 1:4 throughout. And maybe 100mm track centres. That will reduce the amount of final distortion needed.

Is it possible to use this on the background of the ECoS panel? How big is it?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 May 2020 14:55

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. I'm using 1:5 regular crossings and they are fine. Having got this far, I don't want to go back and change them all and then realign all the track, so I'll carry on now with the other side and add platforms etc.

Once I get platforms on text added to the various bits, I'm sure it will be OK and is probably clearer than using an track layout replica.

I'll be back.....

posted: 14 May 2020 15:34

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

I've just remembered that Templot includes its own distortion functions. I haven't used them for 25 years, and I don't suppose anyone else has either. But it's all still in there and working.

It means the distorted diagram can be exported in EMF format, and zoom without any fuzziness:

2_141029_230000000.png2_141029_230000000.png

If you get the box file finished, and the marker colours decided, we can take it from there.

Are you going to put the other end of the station in the same diagram? It would seem the neatest option, even if it makes the panel a bit longer than you intended. The middle part of the platforms could be cut out.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 May 2020 15:54

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Yes, it has to be one long plan as swapping from one diagram to the other is part of the problem. I forgot to answer your question re the ECoS. I may be totally wrong, but believe the track screen is a simple matrix of small boxes, into which you can add a set of symbols to build up the plan.

It may be possible to set up my new track drawing within the limited number of squares on the ECoS screen using their symbols, but it doesn't gain me anything as I would still have to scroll down through the screens and it doesn't solve the problem of not be able to easily see which routes are set.

I think I'm going down the right route ('scuse the pun) with a large mimic screen and the option of adding switches if required at a later date.

posted: 14 May 2020 20:21

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Decided to start again as I wasn't happy with what was evolving. Spaced the main tracks out to 100mm as they were too close and took your advice to use 1:4 turnouts. I was too far through the first version at the time, so kept going. At least I have two options now to consider.
479_141517_570000000.png479_141517_570000000.png

That's enough for today, so I'm going to put my feet up and chill out for a while. If all is OK, I'll attack the other end tomorrow.

Are we going in the right direction and can we easily thicken up the track lines to take the 7mm LED's?

I'm trying to aim for a maximum panel size around 800mm.
Last edited on 14 May 2020 20:29 by Gordon S
posted: 14 May 2020 21:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Are we going in the right direction and can we easily thicken up the track lines to take the 7mm LED's?
Hi Gordon,

That's looking very neat. :thumb:

The lines will getter wider anyway when we distort it to fit your panel. But do the LEDs need to fit within the line width? This looks OK to me:

2_141605_110000000.png2_141605_110000000.png

If that is 400mm wide for half of the panel, those dots are about 7mm dia, and the lines are about 3mm wide.

How big are the toggle switches which I think you are also planning to fit?

To get much wider lines, we need to use centre-lines instead of diagram mode. If you post the box file I will show you what that would look like.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 May 2020 21:46

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Here's the box file as it stands....
I think the toggles are similar to these.

http://static.rapidonline.com/pdf/75-0157.pdf

I know they have a sprung centre off, but these are momentary whereas stall motors require to be on. They may have something in the electronics I'm not aware of, but these miniature toggles are all fairly standard.

I'm off to bed, so no doubt we'll talk tomorrow...
They could also be these....

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/toggle-switches/7347233/
Attachment: attach_3053_3667_Current_Plan_-_Mimic_Panel_-_3.box     83
Last edited on 14 May 2020 21:50 by Gordon S
posted: 14 May 2020 22:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the file. This is what it might look like with thick centre-lines instead of diagram mode:

2_141711_190000000.png2_141711_190000000.png

Those lines are about 9mm wide.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 06:23

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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p.s. Gordon,

You are using a strange turnout size -- D-4. You would have more design flexibility using shorter turnouts, A-4 or a 9ft-4.

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 07:53

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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I just inserted a turnout and then used F5 to change it to 1:4 and regular crossing. If it’s five minute job to change, It probably started off as a D12. I’ll look at it later....

If it’s a complete realignment of everything, I’ll live with it for now until I’m convinced it’s the right way to go.

I’m interested how you created a solid line and then compressed the plan.

You know me well enough, that once I get the track correct, I will spend days tweaking the visual appearance until I’m 100% happy with what I see.

As always, I’m really grateful for your help, but I wouldn’t expect anyone to do that for me as the last 10% of tweaking could take days on it’s own. It’s just one of those things that has to be absolutely right. Visual appearance Is so subjective and we all have our own idea of what looks right.
Last edited on 15 May 2020 08:05 by Gordon S
posted: 15 May 2020 09:08

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
I’m interested how you created a solid line and then compressed the plan.

You know me well enough, that once I get the track correct, I will spend days tweaking the visual appearance until I’m 100% happy with what I see.

As always, I’m really grateful for your help, but I wouldn’t expect anyone to do that for me as the last 10% of tweaking could take days on it’s own. It’s just one of those things that has to be absolutely right. Visual appearance Is so subjective and we all have our own idea of what looks right.
Hi Gordon,

I'm happy to help (but a bit tired today after a long day on the computer yesterday -- and a walk to photograph a tree...  and with the frosts now behind us I have some gardening to get on with...)

I have made you a quick bit of scruff video showing how to get the thick lines, and distort the plan on the sketchboard to fit a mimic panel:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=xI6N28PgRnAuLdoLrrVDog2

ask again if anything not clear,

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 09:37

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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p.s.

sorry Gordon, I missed a bit out of the video. After clicking the update button, you need to click the lock:

2_150430_440000000.png2_150430_440000000.png

Unfortunately there is no way to update the distorted trackplan after making revisions on the trackpad, it will be necessary to repeat the process in the video each time. Probably a better option would be to use the manual options for the trackplan instead of auto update. I will make a proper video later, there are a lot of options and settings.

Martin.

posted: posted: 15 May 2020 09:48

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Gordon S
 
 

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When do you get some sleep?....:D
OK, changed all the turnouts to A4's on the bit that's done. 

Bit of feedback for you. 1:4 is not on the template menu. It stops at 1:4.5, so you then need to go back into F5 to select 1:4. No big deal, but you may wish to add 1:4 at next update.

Thanks for the video. That's perfect and I followed it no problem. I would never have been able to do that or find the commands without the video.

If my wife doesn't commandeer me for gardening duties, I'll try and get the other end done today.

Thanks....

15 May 2020 09:48

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Martin Wynne
 
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p.p.s. just realised that the thick centre-lines option excludes the platforms.

I will do a program mod to fix that. Anything else which needs to be included?

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 09:54

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Gordon S
 
 

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Other than the facility to add text etc, platforms will be fine. I had to make some further changes this morning as the bay platform was too far to the left, meaning the crossovers above would have been inside the platform area, whereas they are outside.

New file attached.
Attachment: attach_3055_3667_Current_Plan_-_Mimic_Panel_-_4.box     57

posted: 15 May 2020 12:57

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

There is a way to work directly in with the distorted track on the trackpad, like this:

2_150750_130000000.png2_150750_130000000.png

I didn't mention it, because there is no finer way of doin' your 'ed in. :)

But it would make it easier to see directly the effect of your changes.

I can make a video showing how, if you want?

Your text is added directly on the sketchboard, not on the trackpad, like this:

2_150753_530000000.png2_150753_530000000.png

Likewise any other graphics and symbols.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 13:58

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Gordon S
 
 

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OK, I've tweaked the plan again by widening the end diagonals out to 150mm and added the platforms which don't show in Sketchboard. Is that what you referring to earlier?
Latest file below.

I'm also talking to a good friend who lives round the corner and has his own graphics company, so I pinged the sample file over to him in PDF at 6000 dots and 1200 dpi for him to look at. All was fine other than a small bump on every turnout. Is this something I've done? Not the end of the world, but thought I'd flag it up....

479_150856_200000000.png479_150856_200000000.png


It seems we're heading in the right direction.....:D
Attachment: attach_3056_3667_Current_Plan_-_Mimic_Panel_-_5.box     55

posted: 15 May 2020 14:40

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
All was fine other than a small bump on every turnout. Is this something I've done? Not the end of the world, but thought I'd flag it up....H
Hi Gordon,

To get you properly started on this I would need to write a book. Which I don't mind doing, but not at the pace you work, it would take me a week or two. :)

The bump is because you are using "A" switches. The turnout-road centre-line is drawn starting from the heel of the switch. There is a gap between there and the centre-line of the main road:

2_150926_220000000.png2_150926_220000000.png

To reduce the bump you need to use a shorter switch. I did suggest using a 9ft straight switch. The shortest available switch is the 1:24 model-only switch as above, which would reduce the bump to almost nothing.

To eliminate it entirely you would need to change to gaunt turnouts, with the gaunt offset set to zero.

Unfortunately there is no way to make these changes globally, you would need to change each turnout individually -- put the peg somewhere other than CTRL-0 first.

Or I can write some code to do it globally? Which is what I would do for my own projects. It might take me a day or two before I can get it released. I'm trying to fix Jim's diamond-crossing conundrum at the same time. :)

Anything is possible in Templot, but I don't always release it because the task of creating a user interface is just too much work, and writing the instructions beyond me.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 14:45

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Gordon S
 
 

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Don't worry Martin. I'll see what I can do here first. I've just opened up the four incoming tracks to 150mm as well and that looks much better. I have more than enough to do working on the other end.

I may have a play once that is done, but please carry on with your other work...

posted: 15 May 2020 15:13

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Gordon S
 
 

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Well that wasn't too much of a task and seems to have worked well. I think this is without the tracks being widened as it's straight off the PDF at 1600%......
479_151011_480000000.png479_151011_480000000.png


Latest box file attached. Just in case you want to take a detailed look.
Attachment: attach_3057_3667_Current_Plan_-_Mimic_Panel_-_7_-_Gaunt_Turnouts.box     58

posted: 15 May 2020 19:12

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Phil O
 
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Hi Gordon,

Am I right in thinking that the mimic blue track is in sketchboard? If so you could add filled rectangles to indicate platforms. I think that's the sort of thing that the signalling centre's mimics have to indicate platforms, but it's about 20 odd years ago since I was last in one.

Cheers

Phil

posted: 15 May 2020 19:22

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Phil,

I'm adding an option to include the platforms with the track centre-lines only output option in the next program update shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2020 21:09

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Gordon S
 
 

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It's been a long day, but at least I now have the complete plan on file. The box file is attached. The PDF appears fine.
479_151605_460000000.png479_151605_460000000.png


John has come back to me with two tiny aberrations. I've checked the track layout and can't see anything, but they are very small indeed.

479_151608_130000000.png479_151608_130000000.png


It's been a good day and I've learned a lot, so very worthwhile. My bed awaits shortly.....


Attachment: attach_3059_3667_Mimic_Panel_complete_-_1.box     59

posted: 16 May 2020 08:14

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

2_160247_360000000.png2_160247_360000000.png

This is a known bug in the sketchboard. It's been on my do-something-about list for about 10 years.

For a reason which I don't understand, and have never got round to asking Nils to explain, the sketchboard output is recursively split into a series of tiles. It is probably simply to conserve resources on older machines, and could now be dispensed with.

In some circumstances there is a 1-bit shear along the tile boundaries. I have drawn a line above to show the tile boundary here. The effect is so slight that it mostly goes unnoticed. You could get round it by moving the plan slightly so that the shear line occurs inside one of your horizontal lines.

I will have another look at fixing this, but what I'm more concerned about is why this image is fuzzy? It's not the image gallery resampling, because it is the same on your original uploaded image. How did you create this image? It's important to be careful with metafiles on the sketchboard -- if you rotate them, even by the tiniest amount, the sketchboard will convert them to bitmaps, and there is no way back. Bitmaps go fuzzy when zoomed, metafiles don't.

I have now added this to the code, in all outputs:

2_160303_120000000.png2_160303_120000000.png

Will be in a program update shortly. But I must get Jim's diamond-crossing bug fixed first, because it is a serious bug.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 16 May 2020 08:45

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. The fuzzy image is probably down to a selective screenshot and nothing else as John said the rest was absolutely fine. 

Apologies for finding all these tiny bugs that have gone unnoticed all these years.....:D

I will have a play around again this morning, but please don’t give it any time right now as I have loads of things to do and it’s really not urgent at all. With my less than perfect eyesight, I probably wouldn’t have noticed anyway.

I shall do some more tweaking over the weekend as I want to look at improving the right hand end, but overall I’m pleased with the outcome so far.

Thanks for all your support....

posted: 16 May 2020 09:35

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just to complete the circle. This is the latest box file.
Attachment: attach_3061_3667_Mimic_Panel_-_9_-_Complete.box     53

posted: 16 May 2020 09:36

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Gordon S
 
 

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.....and the PDF.
Attachment: attach_3063_3667_mimic_panel_-_9_-_complete.pdf     88
Last edited on 16 May 2020 09:42 by Gordon S
posted: 18 May 2020 17:02

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PRChappell
 
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Hi Martin and everybody

I have been following this thread with interest as I had never considered using Templot to produce a Signal Box/Control Panel diagram.

This prompted one question from me to which I hope somebody may know the answer.
In Martins first diagram (email 13th May) he showed what maybe possible and showed a switch feeding into a slip, a situation where one lever in the signal box would work two switches. The switches are identified by the lever number followed by a suffix letter, "a" or "b" identifying each switch separately.

My question is - are there any rules about which end of the crossing is lettered "a" and which is lettered "b" ??

Kind regards

Peter

posted: 18 May 2020 17:54

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Martin Wynne
 
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PRChappell wrote:
My question is - are there any rules about which end of the crossing is lettered "a" and which is lettered "b" ??
Hi Peter,

The A end of a crossover is the one nearest the signal box.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 May 2020 21:56

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PRChappell
 
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Martin
Brilliant. It just proves its obvious when you know the answer!! I have been trying to solve that dilemma for a while.

Very many thanks as always

Peter

posted: 5 Jun 2020 09:09

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Guys, spent far too long gardening and golfing, so back to my mimic panel....:D

I'm just straightening out the final track corrections and now have the platforms in place on both the track plan and sketch board. I've searched everywhere, but can't see how you change the colour on the platforms. On the track layout, the platforms are open shapes with no infill. On sketch board they are filled, but I need to change the colour of the 'fill' and can't find the control to do that.

Any clues?..... :D
Edit: just remembered my second question. 

How do I set the size of the finished print in Sketchboard/Templot?

I'm thinking of a .pdf file to send to a printer with the finished panel being around 900mm x 450mm. Ideally I want the tracks to be around 7mm wide to accept the led bezel. It may well be the finished panel size is dictated by the track thickness, hence the approximate dimensions.

I shall build a mock up first with printed A4 sheets to see if all the associated electronic will fit in the base and then adjust the finished panel size up or down once I can see it all fits easily.
Last edited on 5 Jun 2020 09:49 by Gordon S
posted: 5 Jun 2020 09:53

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
I'm just straightening out the final track corrections and now have the platforms in place on both the track plan and sketch board. I've searched everywhere, but can't see how you change the colour on the platforms. On the track layout, the platforms are open shapes with no infill. On sketch board they are filled, but I need to change the colour of the 'fill' and can't find the control to do that.
Hi Gordon,

Here you go:

2_050447_460000000.png2_050447_460000000.png

p.s. you should have received an upgrade to 226c by now.

There are two relevant changes:

1. platforms can now be included when using the thick centre-lines option.

2. I have made a modification to the centre-line prevent that small side-blip which you noticed. You changed to gaunt turnouts to avoid that, but there is no longer any need to do so.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Jun 2020 09:59

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. Easy when you know where to look.....Done!

I have 226c uploaded, so no doubt will find these things as I get back into Templot.

I suspect my edit re print size was whilst you were replying to the first question, so any guidance will be much appreciated as always.

posted: 5 Jun 2020 11:11

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
I suspect my edit re print size was whilst you were replying to the first question, so any guidance will be much appreciated as always.
Hi Gordon,

Sorry I missed that. Here you go:

2_050548_480000000.png2_050548_480000000.png

Press the ENTER key after entering the figures, otherwise they may not "take" (depending where you move the focus to next).

If you have locked the trackplan, you then need to click update now to resize it to fit the new page size:

2_050548_480000002.png2_050548_480000002.png

For the PDF export, it will be a single page document at the set page size. For large pages it may be a bit slow. If some parts of the page are missing, reduce the DPI setting and try again. 300 DPI is plenty for most ordinary printing:

2_050548_480000001.png2_050548_480000001.png

This function seems to need a bit more work. Also it is high time I wrote an instruction manual for the sketchboard -- I just need to find the odd month or two free. :)

Also the EMF export seems to have gone missing from the menu. :?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Jun 2020 11:13

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Gordon S
 
 

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Many thanks as always...

posted: 6 Jun 2020 11:50

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, just an update on my mimic diagram, but relax, it's the weekend and I'm not expecting an answer until next week......:D 

Thanks for your help on platforms. All done and they look OK in sketchboard. 

Just an aside, I ran into the same upload issues as before, so went back into search and found another poster had a similar issue. He found that the Gallery Upload worked OK, so thought I'd try that. Had exactly the same result in as much uploading into a topic just stalled and went nowhere. Tried a couple of times without success. Tried Gallery Upload and that worked fine, but I could also see my two failed attempts from the post were in the Gallery, so they had uploaded, but using the topic route meant the process stalled and I couldn't select and insert from the topic. Happy to provide a lot more detail.

topic 3548

Here's the plan so far with platforms in place.

479_060625_340000000.png479_060625_340000000.png

Of course the track is far too narrow for led's, so revisited the thick centre lines options via Output Mode Options/Detail Mode only this time ticked the option with platforms and track bed edges. I set the line thickness at 50.

Went back into Sketchboard and in diagram mode had the plan as shown above, but once I deselected diagram mode the track came up thicker, but the platforms have lost their colour option and both the bay platforms and through platforms have merged into the track centre lines....

479_060631_570000001.jpg479_060631_570000001.jpg


What I'm looking for is the thicker track lines plus clearly defined colours for the platforms. I guess I'm missing something or have misunderstood the process.....



Last edited on 6 Jun 2020 11:51 by Gordon S
posted: 6 Jun 2020 12:37

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Just an aside, I ran into the same upload issues as before, so went back into search and found another poster had a similar issue. He found that the Gallery Upload worked OK, so thought I'd try that. Had exactly the same result in as much uploading into a topic just stalled and went nowhere. Tried a couple of times without success.
Hi Gordon,

It's difficult to respond to this because it depends so much on which browser, on what system? Needless to say, it works fine for me here on Windows10+Firefox (otherwise I would have fixed it).

A few points to note:

2_060712_390000000.png2_060712_390000000.png

1. after selecting the file, don't click the Upload image button until the words "No file selected" (or whatever your browser says there) has changed to the name of the file. On my system that sometimes takes several seconds after selecting the file in the file dialog. I don't know why there is a delay (it's on my list of things to investigate), but I do know that it won't upload properly if I click the upload button too soon.

2. there is no longer any need to click the screenshot option (which reduces the colour bit-depth to save space on the server). There is now plenty of space on there, and most folks have fast broadband and won't notice any difference in the download. Clicking that option shouldn't make any difference to the upload success, but it may be a factor. It's on my to-do list to remove it.

3. if you have a modern DSLR-type camera, or high-end mobile, there is a temptation to upload straight off the camera. This forum software can handle and resize much larger images than most, but it's better to resize images down to a maximum of say 2500x1500 (i.e. under 4 megapixels) before uploading. Many cameras now produce images of 20 megapixels or more, so you can see the likely effect on the server of a direct upload.

p.s. I will respond about the platforms shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2020 13:15

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Gordon S
 
 

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I had hoped it may have given you some clues...

I'm using Safari Version 13.0.3 (14608.3.10.10.1) on a Mac OS Majave 10.14.6.

I'll try a test following your rules and see what happens. This pic is only 299Kb, so no size at all.

Did as you requested and waited 40 seconds before getting bored....:D

Locked up as before so went to Gallery and the pic is there...

Now I know to use Gallery to upload and not via the topic, the  problem is solved, but felt you should know.

479_060811_440000000.jpg479_060811_440000000.jpg

posted: 6 Jun 2020 13:33

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
I had hoped it may have given you some clues...

I'm using Safari Version 13.0.3 (14608.3.10.10.1) on a Mac OS Majave 10.14.6.
Hi Gordon,

Many thanks for testing and reporting the details.

Unfortunately, without a Mac (it's raining here right now :) ) it's difficult for me to test. It's puzzling, because the code for uploading and inserting via the Gallery page is essentially the same.

Something you could try -- when nothing happens, try clicking the Preview button. You can then scroll back down and continue writing the post.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2020 13:48

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Gordon S
 
 

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2nd test. Went to upload another pic of just 258Kb. Same as before with a lock up.
You can shut down the upload page and continue typing again as I'm doing now without using the preview button, so that's fine. Looked in the gallery and the pic is there twice, showing that it is definitely uploading, just not closing the topic upload window down and inserting the pic.

Dead easy to go to the gallery and just insert from gallery....

479_060839_390000000.jpg479_060839_390000000.jpg



posted: 6 Jun 2020 13:50

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Martin Wynne
 
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p.s.

Just to add that the posting editor on here is now about 20 years old. In that time browsers have upgraded and changed beyond recognition, and other forums such as RMweb have gone through half a dozen different posting editors.

It's high time I did something to modernise Templot Club, but it's such a massive task dealing with a long-established database.

I do have an unused XenForo licence -- similar to Western Thunder and Platform 1, see:

 http://westernthunder.co.uk

 http://platform1mrc.com

so perhaps I should be thinking about it for Templot Club?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2020 13:58

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Gordon S
 
 

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Now I know there's no problem at all uploading to the Gallery and then inserting the image from there, so maybe a simple note to that effect will solve the problem and save a few bob........

I had seen Western Thunder before, but the other one is new to me. I'll have a nose round....

I can understand the attraction of new software, but someone has to pay for it......:D
Last edited on 6 Jun 2020 14:02 by Gordon S
posted: 6 Jun 2020 14:23

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
I can understand the attraction of new software, but someone has to pay for it......:D
Hi Gordon,

I already have a paid-for XenForo licence (and now unused), so that's not the problem. The problem is the massive amount or work involved in doing the conversion. Plus of course, for everyone who likes it, there will be someone else who doesn't. :)

Platform 1 was originally a break-away from Your Model Railway.

p.s. I have now added a note about the image buttons, as you can see if you reply.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2020 17:10

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Back to the mimic diagram.

By widening the centre-line to 50mm you have buried the platform edge in the track, so what you need to do now is increase this setting:

2_061148_200000000.png2_061148_200000000.png

I found a setting of 120 inches (10ft) (prototype) is somewhere near what you might be looking for:

2_061148_200000001.png2_061148_200000001.png

Unfortunately there is no global or group option for that setting, it's necessary to set each template separately.

Before doing that, you probably want to save a BOX file with the existing settings which you can revert back to.

At present extracting the platforms from the marker colour is more problematic, unless you abandon marker colours and settle for the default colours (black centre-lines).

What you can do is change the platform infill (but not the outline colour) on the sketchboard, like this:

2_061202_290000000.png2_061202_290000000.png

If you do this, make sure you click the lock option on the trackplan tab, otherwise you will lose the setting each time you swap back to the trackpad.

That's not very satisfactory, so I will do something about it in the next program update. I need to release 226d very soon anyway, to fix the floating-point bug which Julian reported.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2020 18:39

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. just for feedback, nothing else.....it's the weekend!
Followed your instructions and results are here...

479_061334_230000000.jpg479_061334_230000000.jpg

Platforms are brown and gaps fine.....:D

Bit of tweaking to do on track/platform overlaps. The only thing of notice is that the platform joins are left with a blue line (as you said) following the infills. I may be able to do something with the outer platforms by doing them in one piece. Need a bit of time to think about the double ended bay as whatever I do, it will have joins somewhere......

Couldn't be bothered to swap files around, so this is a camera shot of the screen.

Thanks again for your support.
Last edited on 6 Jun 2020 18:42 by Gordon S
posted: 6 Jun 2020 22:14

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Need a bit of time to think about the double ended bay as whatever I do, it will have joins somewhere......
Hi Gordon,

See:

 topic 3679 - message 29819

You can avoid unwanted joins and create a concourse area at the end of bay platforms with a bit of lateral thinking:

2_061710_460000000.png2_061710_460000000.png

Overlay the unwanted join with a bit of dummy no-timbering template. Switch off all the edges on its platform. Reduce the platform width a fraction so that the wanted outlines don't get obscured. Make sure it is lower down in the box list than the underlying platform tracks, so that it is drawn in front of them. This is the result:

2_061712_120000000.png2_061712_120000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 7 Jun 2020 13:15

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

if you can wait a day or two, this will be in 226d:

2_070812_100000000.png2_070812_100000000.png

4 levels of sub-menu is daft, but is the easiest to implement.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 7 Jun 2020 13:50

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Gordon S
 
 

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:thumb:

As I said no rush at all, but thanks....

posted: 8 Jun 2020 14:32

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Gordon S
 
 

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Well I must be doing something wrong, but can't see it. I've made several amendments to the plan with the addition of three crossovers to enable similar access routes from each side of ET station. I've managed to follow everything you have told me re printing and generated this pdf file (below).
All seems fine until I come to print it. Looking at the print size, that is correct at 900mm width (35") yet it only shows 1 page and printing the diagram is reducing it to one page.

479_080928_050000001.png479_080928_050000001.png

Clicking on set up shows the print size at 100%

479_080928_050000000.png479_080928_050000000.png

....and yet it still only prints the total plan on one page.

What have I missed? I'm sure it's obvious, but grateful for any ideas...
Attachment: attach_3081_3667_sketchboard_2020_06_08_1406_06.pdf     38
Last edited on 8 Jun 2020 14:33 by Gordon S
posted: 8 Jun 2020 15:31

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

You have rather lost me. :?

You have created a single page PDF document 900mm x 600mm.

And you are trying to print it on A4? :)

You have this box ticked:

2_081016_510000000.png2_081016_510000000.png

which means the PDF reader is scaling it down to fit on an A4 page. Is that what you want?

If you want to print it actual size on the page, you need to untick that box.

It's then possible your reader will split it to multiple pages -- is that what the "multiple pages per sheet" settings on there can do?

Alternatively, you could ignore the sketchboard and export a PDF directly from the trackpad in the same way as when printing templates. At present you are not adding any additional sketchboard items, so that would seem to be the better option. You can then set whatever page sizes you want in the export dialog, and any scaling in the output menu. Some annotations could be done via background shapes and shoved timbers (especially since those can now have individual colours and infills).

Perhaps you could sketch all the annotations stuff which you were intending to add to the mimic diagram, such as titles, labels, coloured boxes, etc.? The sketchboard may not be the best way forward.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 8 Jun 2020 15:53

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Gordon S
 
 

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I was trying to print off a set of A4 pages (as I would in Templot) so I could stick them together for a mock up. I want to check the track thickness re the 7mm led's and also incorporate a cut out to all the ECoS controller to possibly fit within the whole mimic panel. I didn't want to waste money sending a pdf file to a printer and then find things were not as I expected.

I had already tried unticking the 'fit to Printer margins' box and it made no difference. I think something is overriding that setting as after printing I noticed it was ticked again.

If I unticked that box, then I would expect the number of pages under the track diagram to change from 1 to however many pages it would take to print the whole plan. To my mind it should say page 1 of 16 or something similar.

Either way, it still prints one page with the whole plan reduced to A4 size even with that box unticked.

I'm using Foxit reader to print the pdf and it may well be their software is playing up. The reason I say that is it would only let me choose my Samsung printer and every time I chose the Canon it defaulted back to the Samsung once I pressed print. The only way to overcome that was to make the Canon the default printer and then it worked OK.

From what you are saying, I need not have used Sketchboard at all?

Will the quality of the pdf from Templot be just as 'clean' or will have have to change various settings to get a simple diagram as I have now?

I will want to add various numbers and text on the final schematic so I can easily identify up and down lines plus platform numbers.

It's critical for me to be able to print full size A4's so I can see exactly what the finished article will look like before going to a specialist printer.

Is that still the best way forward?

posted: 8 Jun 2020 16:14

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

PDF readers can be a damn nuisance. They are not really designed to print poster sizes. That's why I use PDF XChange Viewer, which seems to be the best of the bunch.

Can you post or send me the BOX file?

I can then see the best way forward.

The best interim way while you are still designing the tracks is probably not via the sketchboard but a direct PDF export on multiple pages like the track templates. But you will need lots of coloured ink. You could temporarily use pale colours for the track lines.

The best final way will be via the sketchboard when you want to add labels and numbers, coloured backgrounds, etc. In fact as your platforms are straight rectangles, you could have been adding those that way too. Not so easy if curved.

My problem is that I didn't write the sketchboard engine, it is based on Nils's component. If it was my code I could dive in and make lots of useful changes, including a proper multi-page EMF vector output. I have made lots of changes in there already, but it is so darned complex and impenetrable. Directly from the trackpad PDF and DXF exports are all mine, and I can do anything I like with those.

Post the BOX file and I can tell you exactly how to make the multiple page prints you want.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 8 Jun 2020 16:32

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin.

Just looked up Xchange viewer and it appears to be Windows only.....
Here's the latest box file of the schematic diagram.

I've seen you mentioned Nils a couple of times, but of course I don't know who Nils is.

I assume he has been involved with Templot at some point in time....Just curious...

BoD on RMweb tipped me off re an interesting video on someone building a DCC Concepts mimic/switching panel with an EcoS. It was an interesting watch, particularly as it appears the guy abandoned the ECoS control diagram...:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn4H-4tyQ4k
Attachment: attach_3082_3667_ET_Schematic_diagram.box     28

posted: 8 Jun 2020 17:25

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the BOX file.

Forget the sketchboard while you are working on the mimic track layout. That can come later when you are ready to add other annotation stuff.

For now, make your settings for the thick centre-lines, 50mm wide, etc.

Then go here:

2_081210_540000000.png2_081210_540000000.png

Set it to 5.4% for starters. You can fine tune it later to get exactly the size you want.

Then just do a CTRL-F11 print as if you were printing the track templates:

2_081230_240000000.png2_081230_240000000.png

When you have the track design satisfactory, we can then go back to the sketchboard.

Nils Haeck has had no involvement in Templot, other than being the supplier of the DTP component which I used as the basis of the sketchboard:

 http://www.simdesign.nl/dtpdocuments.html

I originally purchased a licence to use the full source code, which was quite expensive (in the days when Templot was paid-for) and corresponded with Nils about a lot of the details.

Unfortunately, Nils then suffered a severe brain injury in a horse-riding accident, and was unable for a long time to provide any further help or support. His current intentions for his software projects are still very uncertain.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 8 Jun 2020 17:36

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just added all the platforms via Sketchboard and that was easy, so fairly certain I can arrive at something presentable. The guy in the video ended up with a laser cut sheet of acrylic with the same led's, but had mounted toggle switches below the panel and numbered each turnout accordingly.

Nicely done and different from the norm in terms of colouring....

479_081235_080000000.jpg479_081235_080000000.jpg





posted: 9 Jun 2020 10:52

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just some feedback for you, Martin. Did as I was told and the first result wasn't what I was expecting....:D
Tried my Samsung laser printer and then the Canon colour printer. It all looked fine on the three sheet print preview screen, but the is what came out...

479_090527_120000000.jpg479_090527_120000000.jpg


I wasn't sure what to do, so went back and checked everything and all was fine. Printed a couple more times with the same result. I was guessing at this stage, so tried reducing the line thickness from 50 down to 10 and this looked a little more promising.

479_090529_420000000.jpg479_090529_420000000.jpg

Tried taking it down to 3mm and this appears to be heading in the right direction....

479_090530_440000000.jpg479_090530_440000000.jpg

The actual line thickness on the print is virtually 3mm, which made me think it would be as per the setting, but when set on 10mm, the lines measured 35mm and when set on 50mm, they all merged into one line 75mm wide.

I have the % set at 5.4% as you asked and I'm guessing that is 5.4% of the total plan length shown in Templot as 15200mm or thereabouts. That would bring it down to 826mm, so near to my finished panel size.

I'm guessing then the reduction only applies to the whole sheet size and the lines are set independently.

Just tried setting the lines at 7mm and this was the outcome.

479_090543_390000000.jpg479_090543_390000000.jpg

Getting somewhere....The lines are now 7mm, but of course the problem is now the spacing. Does this mean going back to Sketchboard to stretch the plan in the vertical access? 

I can't face having to redraw it all again with wider centres.......:D

I'm guessing some mathematics may need to be done before starting in terms of panel size, line thickness and track spacing to end up with an optimum output, but in my head I can envisage issues with turnout angles and crossovers. I'm guessing the wider spacing will lengthen the crossover and that changes the overall length.

Of course all this takes me back to my early working days of laying out PCB's with sticky tape on drawing film.....long before CAD came into play.

It certainly been an interesting exercise and I'm learning all the time....



posted: 9 Jun 2020 12:00

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Something very wrong there. :(

It looks like the 5.4% is being applied in the wrong direction. It all worked fine on my Canon printer here.

Don't change anything until I get back to you. There is certainly no need to redraw the plan.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 12:42

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

The reason for your alarming first result is that you may have inadvertently unticked this menu item:

2_090736_210000000.png2_090736_210000000.png

It needs to remain ticked when making large-scale changes to the output size. It is ticked by default.

That still doesn't get you to 7mm lines, I'm sorry I had forgotten you were doing aspect-ratio changes on the sketchboard. You can do them for the normal printing using the data distortions. I will post a full recipe shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 13:30

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Gordon S
 
 

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I beg your pardon.....inadvertently unticked this menu item?.....
Exhibit 1 for the defence....

479_090818_500000000.png479_090818_500000000.png


Not guilty guv, just following instructions.....:D:D

I wasn't planning to use different aspect ratios in Sketchboard but suspect I may have to. I've widened the panel out to 1200mm with a width of 300mm and am playing around to find the best compromise. The problem I still have is not being able to print off separate pages full size so I can measure the actual track width first and see how that sits with 7mm diameter led bezels. I have no problem if the track width is 5-7mm as I can still set the bezel accurately on the track itself. 

I'd also like to stick a few pages together in a mock up and add text boxes etc as I go along. I certainly don't want to send off a pdf file for printing or even laser etching until I'm 100% happy with the mock up. I suspect you know I will spend hours trying to get the last detail right before approving it for production..:D

I have a few days or so yet, as I've returned the plain green led to Hatton's to exchange for red/green. I know it will look like a Christmas tree, but it will be easier for me to see a red light, than no light at all.

We're getting there....:thumb:

posted: 9 Jun 2020 13:38

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Gordon S
 
 

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This is latest Sketchboard file I have. The centre line thickness is set at 30mm and the page size at 1200 x 300. It's looking reasonable, but I have no idea what the actual thickness of the lines are...
I seem to have lost the platforms whilst messing around, but it won't take more than a few minutes to redraw them in Sketchboard. It's much easier that trying to add them into the Templot diagram.

Attachment: attach_3083_3667_schematic_-_vers_2.sk9     26

posted: 9 Jun 2020 13:42

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Gordon S
 
 

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Meant to add the pdf settings are at 600dpi with a bitmap width of 3900. Is there any problem increasing those to enhance the quality?

posted: 9 Jun 2020 14:15

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
I beg your pardon.....inadvertently unticked this menu item?.....
Exhibit 1 for the defence....

479_090818_500000000.png479_090818_500000000.png


Not guilty guv, just following instructions.....:D:D
Hi Gordon,

Well yes, but that video was before there was any talk of changing the output scaling, on 100% output that setting has no effect. As far as I can remember, I haven't made a video in the last few days about this. I'm really struggling now, I just can't remember anything. I'm sorry Gordon.

The red/green LED discussion has gone over my head, what did I miss?

Is it essential to have 7mm lines? -- I noticed on the YouTube video you posted that the builder had used thin lines on the mimic panel, with the LED bezels much larger than the lines. It looked OK to me?

I will post a recipe shortly showing how to get what you want. The real nuisance factor here is the failure of the PDF reader program to tile the output on separate pages, so that you can see a full-size test print on A4 paper.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 14:24

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Gordon S
 
 

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My comments are all very much tongue in cheek, Martin. It just made me chuckle.....:D
Don't worry about forgetting things. I still haven't come to terms with it and it happens to me continually..

DCC Concepts have several led colour options, red, green and red/green. I was originally going to use red/green, but allowed myself to get talked out of it and ordered green. Having seen the video, I should have stuck to my guns as red is far easier to see than no light at all. Who cares if it looks like a Christmas tree....:D

I'm still playing around with various settings and managed to print off one page full size from Sketchboard, so at least that's a start. As I said earlier, the tracks don't have to be 7mm wide. 5mm will be perfectly acceptable.

No need to spend more time on solving the riddle right now. Once I can get the actual track width, even on one page, I can play around with aspect ratios and centre line thickness to get near to what I want.

Thanks again for the superb support...

posted: 9 Jun 2020 14:38

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Martin Wynne
 
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Thanks Gordon.

Have you considered reverting to diagram-mode and using a track background:

2_090933_110000000.png2_090933_110000000.png

You can set the track background to any width* or colour. The advantage is that it doesn't matter so much if the backgrounds are close together. You could even have them merged where you have normal-spaced up and down double-track, if you wanted that.

*but all the same width.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 15:27

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Gordon S
 
 

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That's a good idea. Just found the various settings and colour choices, so I'll play around this evening.

I'm golfing for the next couple of days, so will leave you in peace....:D

posted: 9 Jun 2020 19:10

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

How does this look?

2_091403_280000000.png2_091403_280000000.png

The line thickness is 9mm, also the sloping lines. I tried a print to confirm it.

Don't worry about the jaggies, that's just on the screen.

I can create a recipe or video for this -- there are quite a few steps.

The panel size is 900x600mm. Is that your final size? The size needs to be decided as a starting point.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 20:55

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, I really appreciate your help, but now we are getting into a very subjective area and it's better that I continue on the actual track diagram on my own. The last thing I want to do is take up any more of your time by asking for this be changed or that realigned. I know from all the years I have spent on Templot a minor change can mean hours of work and what looks right for one person may not suit the other.

Your guidance to get me this far has been invaluable, but I know I will now spend hours (or even days) re aligning everything to be just as I want it.

Even this evening I have moved the sidings area to the lower right of the plan to be parallel with the main lines. The projection as it was certainly looked out of context with the rest of the diagram and was also restricting any aspect changes I could make. They just looked odd sticking out the way they did.

Even so, I do have one question for you. Whilst playing around this evening I've noticed that in each of the crossovers, the diagonal line appears to be thinner than the main lines themselves. Is that something I have done or if it is a function of the software?

I was playing around with small dots to represent led's when I first noticed it. Here's a camera shot showing what I mean. The diagonal line is probably 10% narrower than the main line.

479_091541_450000000.jpg479_091541_450000000.jpg

As I said, I know I will still have questions, but now feel confident enough to play around for days until I arrive at what looks right for me.

Thanks for all your help on this. I would never have got this far without your assistance.....:thumb:
Last edited on 9 Jun 2020 20:58 by Gordon S
posted: 9 Jun 2020 21:18

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Even so, I do have one question for you. Whilst playing around this evening I've noticed that in each of the crossovers, the diagonal line appears to be thinner than the main lines themselves. Is that something I have done or if it is a function of the software?
Hi Gordon,

I'm surprised you have only just noticed that. :)

All the diagonal lines will be affected. It's inevitable if you change the aspect ratio after creating the plan, as I think you are doing on the sketchboard. I'm sorry I have rather lost track(!) of what you are actually doing now.
 
However, if you look at my most recent post, you will see that the diagonal lines are the same width as the horizontal lines. That's because they are being drawn after distorting the aspect ratio in the data. I wanted to get you round to doing that when you have a finalised plan. But it needs a video explanation of the several steps, which I will make shortly.

Currently I'm working on a mod to the sketchboard so that it can more conveniently print actual size on A4, using the right-click menu:

2_091612_100000000.png2_091612_100000000.png

That will enable you to print sections of a 900x600 (or whatever) page on a sheet of A4. In 226d shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 21:37

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Gordon S
 
 

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Probably because it's getting late (for me....:D)
The good news is that none of your assistance over the past few weeks has gone to waste....

Lots of realignments to do, but getting there.

479_091628_570000000.jpg479_091628_570000000.jpg

The diagonals don't seem to detract from the whole thing and I'm sure the bezels will disguise the slight narrowing. 

You would have been proud of me a few minutes ago. It seemed that every time I moved around the page the platforms and the led markers seemed to have a mind of their own. Took a while but I realised I had left the track plan selected and of course that was moving independently from the sketchbook items.....After I'd put everything back twice it was resolved...:D

I have golf for the next few days, so will take a break for a day or two. The rest will do me good as I'm starting to get square eyes......

Getting out in the fresh air is always a good thing to do.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 21:44

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Martin Wynne
 
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That looks good Gordon. :)

Can you remind me exactly what you did to get that? Are you printing directly at 5.4% or is that from the sketchboard?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2020 22:08

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Gordon S
 
 

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I’ve shut everything down now, Martin, so will check it all out tomorrow before golf and post the settings.

Thanks again.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 10:07

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin
I'm wondering if I've come at this the wrong way round and should have done the maths first...:D

As it stands the full size track diagram is 15200mm and I'm looking for a plan that will be around 1200mm or 7.9% of full size.

If I need tracks at 7mm, then applying the same percentage, the centre lines need to be 88mm. Looking at my mock up, the ideal spacing for three led's needs to be around 35mm (they are 30mm in the pic above) and again applying the same percentage takes me out to track centres of around 440mm.

All that is fine in theory, but with a parallel track spacing of 440mm, the length of a crossover will increase considerably and that in turn will increase the length of the plan and change all the percentages.....:D

I know the answer is in there somewhere, even if it means drawing freehand....:D

The latest box file is attached. Page size was set in sketch board at 1200 x 300 and it's currently set at 5.4%

Play around by all means, but don't spend any time on the detail as I can do all that in my own time.
Attachment: attach_3084_3667_Mimic_plan_11_June_2020_vers_1.box     58

posted: 10 Jun 2020 12:58

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
All that is fine in theory, but with a parallel track spacing of 440mm, the length of a crossover will increase considerably
Hi Gordon,

You could have got round that by using much shorter crossing angles. Templot will go down to 1:1.5, but I think you adopted 1:4.

However, that may still not have been short enough, and we are where we are. Thanks for the updated BOX file.

What I'm waiting for is a final decision on the finished size, so that I can make a sensible video. It's gone from 900x450mm to now 1200x300mm and a few others. What is your actual preferred size? :)

The fly in the ointment which is holding me up is nothing to do with any of this, it's the inability to print small sections of a large sketchboard page at actual size on A4 paper. Without that, you can't easily do trial and error prints of a large design on an ordinary printer. I'm working on that right now. Ideally, someone would have pointed out this omission long ago...  :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 16:20

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just back from golf, which made a nice break....

I have found it is possible to print one page full size, but only the one I have shown. Just having a coffee, but will confirm what I did shortly.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 16:45

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Just back from golf, which made a nice break....

I have found it is possible to print one page full size, but only the one I have shown. Just having a coffee, but will confirm what I did shortly.
Hi Gordon,

Just this minute got this working. You select the top corner of an area to be printed full-size by right-clicking. That's clunky, but means I can get 226d out tonight.

I'm going to suggest that you stop using the 5.4% direct output, and use instead the ancient data-distortion functions from the 1990s. I knew I left them in Templot for a reason, but it has taken me until now to discover what it is. :)

But it needs a video, there is no way to explain it in words without getting in a tangle.

But first things first -- what is your required length for this mimic panel?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 17:28

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Gordon S
 
 

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OK, I understand the question, but because of the design it's not that easy to answer.

This is one part of ET that has to look visually balanced and not squashed into an available space. Equally so the 7mm led's can't be on top of each other, particularly in areas of the track work where several turnouts are close together. I started off with a width of 900mm, but the tracks were too narrow, so I stretched it to 1200mm and realigned the sidings/diesel shed to be parallel with the main lines.

My original thoughts were to set the EcoS within the panel and the ECoS is 420mm x 170mm. There would be a cut out in the finished panel (bottom and centre) into which the EcoS would sit. The two 'cheeks' either side of the EcoS could then house switches (if there wasn't room in the track layout) or route selection buttons to enable pre programmed routes in an out of ET station to the four main lines.

From that description I hope you can see that the final panel size is not so critical, hence my desire to play around with various layouts and mock ups until I arrive at something that is visually appealing. The last thing I want is something that works, but looks unprofessional.

Based on the above, I would estimate the finished width to be around 1200mm and the depth probably 400mm. I fully appreciate this is not the answer you may need, but I've known that from the start this would be something that evolved, hence my desire to play around for a few days or even weeks until I have something that reflects the effort that has gone into it.

Just occasionally my creative side takes over my desire to be millimetre correct....

posted: 10 Jun 2020 17:40

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Based on the above, I would estimate the finished width to be around 1200mm and the depth probably 400mm.
Hi Gordon,

Thanks. I'm not suggesting you should actually build it to any given size, it's obviously your project to do as you wish. I just wanted a ball-park size to use in a video so that the numbers make sense, and can be copied if desired. I imagine several users are following this saga. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 17:46

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Gordon S
 
 

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Oh gawd, I hope not.....:D:D

posted: 10 Jun 2020 19:23

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks again for the info Martin. I had no idea Templot went down to 1:1.5 as I usually use 1:10 for all my turnouts. If you recall earlier we talked about the bump that was visible on the turnouts and you suggested using A4 Gaunt turnouts to solve the problem, hence why I used them.

I shall look forward to hearing your solution, but I have been playing around this evening with my maths theories and realised a 1.5 turnout on 440mm parallel line spacing doesn't take up much more room than a crossover using A4 Gaunt turnouts on 150mm track centres. I've set the line thickness at 88mm and using a reduction of 7.9%.

This is purely for fun to see if my theoretical maths calculations hang together. Far too early to say, but something to keep me amused whilst my wife is watching TV.
Last edited on 10 Jun 2020 19:23 by Gordon S
posted: 10 Jun 2020 19:37

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
If you recall earlier we talked about the bump that was visible on the turnouts and you suggested using A4 Gaunt turnouts to solve the problem, hence why I used them.
Hi Gordon,

I suggested using gaunt turnouts, but they can be any angle. You used 1:4 because that made it easier to convert from the A-4 turnouts you had started with.

In any event, I fixed the "bump" in 226c, so there is no longer any need to use gaunt turnouts for that reason.

Not being pedantic about what you are doing -- I just try to keep in mind that on a forum lots of others are reading it, and Google is indexing it for 100 years, so it is important for the info to be accurate.

In any event, your current BOX file works fine with data-distortion, so no need to think of re-doing any of it. I just need a few hours to get 226d out, and then make a proper video showing my suggested route from a BOX file to a sketchboard mimic diagram.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 19:49

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Thought you may be interested in these. I played around for a few minutes with two turnouts, if nothing else to satisfy my curiosity on the maths involved.
A is two 1:1.5 turnouts with centre line thickness set at 88mm and a reduction of 7.9%

B is two 1:4 Gaunt turnouts with centre line thickness set at 50mm and a reduction of 5.4%

It's interesting for me as the wider parallel track spacing doesn't take up any more length with the 1:1.5 turnouts, yet provides more spacing to get 3 led's in the same space. The track width is fairly similar around 7mm.

Just fun to experiment occasionally...

479_101447_530000000.jpg479_101447_530000000.jpg



posted: 10 Jun 2020 20:21

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Gordon S wrote:
If you recall earlier we talked about the bump that was visible on the turnouts and you suggested using A4 Gaunt turnouts to solve the problem, hence why I used them.
Hi Gordon,

I suggested using gaunt turnouts, but they can be any angle. You used 1:4 because that made it easier to convert from the A-4 turnouts you had started with.

In any event, I fixed the "bump" in 226c, so there is no longer any need to use gaunt turnouts for that reason.

Not being pedantic about what you are doing -- I just try to keep in mind that on a forum lots of others are reading it, and Google is indexing it for 100 years, so it is important for the info to be accurate.

In any event, your current BOX file works fine with data-distortion, so no need to think of re-doing any of it. I just need a few hours to get 226d out, and then make a proper video showing my suggested route from a BOX file to a sketchboard mimic diagram.

cheers,

Martin.

Almost right......:D:D

None of this is a problem and the last thing I want is an argument over such a trivial matter. I started off with A5's and you suggested using A4's. At the time I thought it was a time consuming job to change them, but actually found it didn't take long. Having changed the 5's to 4's that's where the bump arose and it was at that point you suggested using Gaunt turnouts.

Martin, this really doesn't matter to me and I should let it pass, but you have asked for it to be correct, so I will have to reply. All of these are on the first page of this topic...

479_101517_550000000.png479_101517_550000000.png





posted: 10 Jun 2020 22:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks Gordon.

I'm sorry if I have upset you in some way. My memory is now so bad that I'm struggling to continue to support Templot. I just can't remember what I have posted, what videos I have made, what I have promised to do, even just a few days ago.

I can provide what seems to me a better method than the one you are using, based on 100% output instead of 5.4% and/or aspect ratio adjustments on the sketchboard, using the old 1990s data-distortions. I wish I had suggested this earlier, but I couldn't be sure it is still working.

But I am determined to get 226d released first, before I forget where I have got to in it. I have just now added a proper setting for actual-size sketchboard printing:

2_101720_020000000.png2_101720_020000000.png


2_101721_010000000.png2_101721_010000000.png


It would be much better done with a draggable outline on the sketchboard, but that would be a lot more coding needed, and will have to wait.

I'm hoping to get 226d released tonight, but before I do more I am going to make my evening meal. :)

And I have just remembered that I haven't yet written any release notes for 226c. :?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 10 Jun 2020 22:52

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Gordon S
 
 

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No problem at all, I’m certainly not upset and extremely grateful for the time and effort you give to all of us. Templot is a wonderful piece of software, but not something you use every day, so it’s inevitable with something this complex, we all need help in sudden bursts as we try something new.

Thanks to your guidance, I’ve now reached a point where I can start to fly on a whole raft on new skills. Please bear in mind I started this project with zero knowledge on producing a mimic panel and now just a few weeks later, I feel very capable of turning out something I shall be very pleased with.

Relax for a while. Get out with your camera and smell the roses...

posted: 11 Jun 2020 13:55

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Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Oh gawd, I hope not.....:D:D
Just to prove the point!
I have been following this thread with great interest as I am in the process of creating a control panel for the storage sidings for my layout. I have already re-temploted the track plan several times with progressively shorter turnouts (arriving at A-1:5s, even considered using half 1:1 diamonds ) and wider track spacings to achieve an acceptable result. So I shall be most interested to see how yours pans out.
Regards
Tony W.

posted: 11 Jun 2020 14:12

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

226d is released, which means you should now be able to select any area on the sketchboard for full-size printing:

2_101720_020000000.png2_101720_020000000.png

Your copy of Templot will update if you restart it.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 11 Jun 2020 14:33

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin, much appreciated

This outdoor life is not all it's cracked up to be. We got drowned this morning......:D

posted: 11 Jun 2020 18:08

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Gordon S
 
 

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Tony W wrote:
Gordon S wrote:
Oh gawd, I hope not.....:D:D
Just to prove the point!
I have been following this thread with great interest as I am in the process of creating a control panel for the storage sidings for my layout. I have already re-temploted the track plan several times with progressively shorter turnouts (arriving at A-1:5s, even considered using half 1:1 diamonds ) and wider track spacings to achieve an acceptable result. So I shall be most interested to see how yours pans out.
Regards
Tony W.

Hi Tony

Happy to  help out as much as I can. I'm going to play around with various turnout sizes, track thicknesses etc and see what develops. Being able to print single pages full size will be a great help.

Had I fully understood the implications at the outset, then possibly I would have established all the basic parameters first and then made various calculations to put my diagram in the right spacial area. Nothing to do with the capabilities of Templot or the support of Martin as every track diagram is different and each of our own needs varies considerably.

I'm fairly sure I will end up with a track diagram that will look professional and do what I want. I have no problem diving in and then seeing what develops. In the end that's what learning is all about. You can read manuals until you are blue in the face, but nothing beats trial and error for really learning how to accomplish a task.....

Hopefully I'll wade in again over the weekend, but my wife has several jobs lined up for me now.....:D

Last edited on 11 Jun 2020 18:10 by Gordon S
posted: 11 Jun 2020 18:23

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
I'm going to play around with various turnout sizes, track thicknesses etc and see what develops.
Hi Gordon,

I'm working on a video right now, but it takes time.

It uses a different method from the one you have been using, you may want to change your settings after watching it. Or not, of course.

I've been going as fast as I can to keep up with you, get 226d released, and make a video. But it is slow going.

Martin.

posted: 11 Jun 2020 18:58

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Gordon S
 
 

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Don't worry about me, Martin. I'm more than happy to play around and see what develops. The first thing that struck me about the video link was the wonderful opening photo. We are privileged to live in such a beautiful country and occasionally, we take it so much for granted.

Every time we turn on the news it is such doom and gloom and your picture was a welcome relief. The second thing was the shock of seeing ET track plan on video......:D

It's funny how the most mundane of detail, such as having to fit three led's in a row on a crossover, can actually dictate the size of the overall panel. The starting point on a finished product is often not the overall size but something small and possibly totally unrelated and it's not until you step back do you think, I wish those could be slightly wider apart.....

I have no golf now until Tuesday, so will potter about between gardening and a family quiz. Hopefully I will be able to determine an optimum track thickness, turnout size and parallel track centres to develop a half decent track diagram.

There's no rush, so relax and take a break. Track diagrams can wait a while....:thumb:
Last edited on 11 Jun 2020 18:59 by Gordon S
posted: 11 Jun 2020 19:09

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Gordon S
 
 

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Gordon S wrote:
Thought you may be interested in these. I played around for a few minutes with two turnouts, if nothing else to satisfy my curiosity on the maths involved.
A is two 1:1.5 turnouts with centre line thickness set at 88mm and a reduction of 7.9%

B is two 1:4 Gaunt turnouts with centre line thickness set at 50mm and a reduction of 5.4%

It's interesting for me as the wider parallel track spacing doesn't take up any more length with the 1:1.5 turnouts, yet provides more spacing to get 3 led's in the same space. The track width is fairly similar around 7mm.

Just fun to experiment occasionally...

479_101447_530000000.jpg479_101447_530000000.jpg


I forgot to say pic A was with the parallel track centres set at 440mm. Pic B was at 150mm. I think I need something between the two in terms of both turnout angle, track thickness and parallel spacing, so I will experiment further this weekend. Ideally the track centres need to be around 35mm for three led's to sit comfortably. The bezels are 7mm, but I'm happy to have track widths 5mm+...

I should get the red/green led's from Hatton's tomorrow, so may build a small mock up of one crossover to see the best led layout and that will determine the parallel track spacing.

Once I have 226d up and running it will make it easier to print a single page full size.


Last edited on 11 Jun 2020 19:17 by Gordon S
posted: 11 Jun 2020 19:22

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
The first thing that struck me about the video link was the wonderful opening photo. We are privileged to live in such a beautiful country and occasionally, we take it so much for granted.

Every time we turn on the news it is such doom and gloom and your picture was a welcome relief.
Thanks Gordon.

I've been indexing my photos recently and now have over 17,000 images in my database. The vast majority are not worth a second glance, but I enjoy looking through them to find the better ones.

A couple of years ago I made a video slideshow showing some of them:

 http://85a.uk/photos/

If it appears as a totally black page, just click in the middle to get it started -- I don't know why it is doing that now, it didn't used to. Browsers don't stay the same for 5 minutes.

You will probably want to switch off the sound. :(

The audio-visual software was quite expensive, and I've done no more with it since. I should get back to it -- but after the boat kit, of course. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jun 2020 14:21

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Gordon S
 
 

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Afternoon all....Just started raining, so that's got me out of gardening detail for the day. Shame....:D
Also received the led's back from Hatton's and I have to own up to mistake on my part. The bezels are not 7mm, but actually 8.7mm. The 'inner' bezel is 5.5mm, so I'm going to aim for that as my track width.

The packing for the components is quite useful as you can get some idea of how 3 led's in a row will look.

479_120916_510000000.jpg479_120916_510000000.jpg


These are on 11mm centres (across the row of four) and to my mind are too close. They probably need to open out to 14mm centres or 28mm parallel tracks. Using my percentage reduction of 8% this would equate to parallel lines in Templot of 350mm with a track thickness of 68.75mm, call it 69mm....:D

Hopefully the rain will be in for a while, so I'm going to experiment with various turnout sizes to mock up a page this afternoon and see what materialises.

I shall look forward to looking at your pics, Martin. Something to be enjoyed in peace and quiet. You are far too modest...

When do we get to see the 'boat kit'?  Tell me more.....



posted: 12 Jun 2020 14:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:

When do we get to see the 'boat kit'?  Tell me more.....
Hi Gordon,

You haven't been paying attention. Boat kit starts here:

 topic 3228 - message 29431

and as received here:

 topic 3228 - message 29491

Guess how far I have got with it? :)

For the mimic video I'm creating 9mm tracks at 30mm centres, so your 8.7mm LEDs would be fine. But first I fear there will need to be a 226e to fix some issues in the sketchboard.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jun 2020 15:12

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Gordon S
 
 

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I'd missed that completely. What a beautiful little boat...

Reminds me of our holidays in Gt Yarmouth where my father was born The harbour used to be full of small boats, sadly all gone now.

http://www.weatherjackwx.co.uk/Gt.Yarmouth/Gt.Yarmouth-01.html

I've started playing around and must have forgotten a step in Sketchboard. As above I set all the parameters to draw a simple crossover. I used a 1:2 crossing, and printing from Templot the tracks have come out at 5.5mm on 28mm centres, so absolutely correct.

When I open Sketchboard however and print one page full size the tracks are 18mmm on 93mm centres. I know it's down to me, but can think what step I've missed out. The page size is set at A4.

Edit: No problem Martin, it seems to have sorted itself as I've added more track.......No idea, but no problem either....:D
Last edited on 12 Jun 2020 19:45 by Gordon S
posted: 14 Jun 2020 03:53

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

I'm going as fast as I can to get 226e finished and released, hopefully tomorrow.

It contains several new functions for mimic panels.

In the meantime I have made a very scruffy temporary video just to show you an alternative method from the one you are using. Some details:

9mm thick lines at 30mm centres.

diagonal lines are the same thickness as horizontal.

output from the trackpad is full normal 100%.

The sketchboard is used in page mode, i.e. without a linked updating trackplan. The mimic plan is an ordinary metafile image. Only the yellow rulers are used, and the dimensions are the full printed paper sizes. This makes it a lot easier to add annotations and size them, than working with model dimensions on the blue rulers. I added a couple of 7mm LEDs in the video. Note that on the yellow rulers, Y-zero is at the top and reads downwards.

All this is doable in 226d, but will be a lot easier in 226e with the extra functions I've added. I wanted you to see this method before you start drilling holes for the LEDs, so that you can choose which method you prefer.

I will make a proper video with notes as soon as I have got 226e released, but it will probably take me several days, so this is a temporary very scruff video for now:

edit: see later for updated videos

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 08:46

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Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

I noticed that there is a diamond crossing at the top of the plan and it got me to wondering how this would be shown if it was a slip. I thought it better to ask the question before you made the next release, incase you need to make some alterations.

Cheers

Phil.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 10:14

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Phil, in actual fact it is a switched diamond crossing, so still has to have led's to indicate which route is set. I'll wait to hear Martin's comment as whether that changes anything versus a single/double slip.

Martin, thanks again for all the work you have undertaken on this project. I'm running late this morning, so will follow the video in the next hour or two.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 14:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I have added a further dialog to avoid going to the storage box menus:

2_140914_440000000.png2_140914_440000000.png

I don't want to do too much more. This is the first time I have blundered about in the data-distortion and re-origination code for over 20 years. I could easily get lost for days, and need a search party to find me. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 14:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I would be interested in some feedback on that video format, before I make a proper version.

It was larger than I usually post at 1920x1080. It's intended to be viewed at dot-for-dot zooming. On most widescreen monitors that will mean zooming out to 80%. As such the MP4 image format looks just about acceptable on my monitor.

At other zoom settings and other screen sizes it must surely look fuzzy and awful?

Below the video there is a download button. If you have Templot installed on the same computer, you can click that to watch the video in much better quality in the Templot player. Firefox makes it very easy, showing this dialog after a download:

2_140937_030000000.png2_140937_030000000.png

Other browsers may require you to hunt about in the menus or in the corner of the screen to find the Run/Open option.

The player will resize to fit the video, or if that's too large for your screen it has options to go smaller, or fit whatever size you have dragged it to:

2_140941_330000000.png2_140941_330000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 15:24

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, apologies for late arrival....

The content of the video looks great, but in terms of clarity I have a few issues. I have to wear glasses and have several pairs of different set ups, so it may be the file, my glasses or my eyesight....

My main machine is a 27" mac 5120 x 2880 screen with 4Gb graphics. Even at full screen size the clarity of the text is probably 75%. Not impossible, but I have to concentrate to read it. Much harder, down to 40-50% on an iPad.

Tried the download, but couldn't open it via Safari and I don't have Templot on my Mac.

My second machine is a Windows 10 PC with a 21" screen. I've forgotten everything I learned from Windows XP all those years ago, so have no idea where to get the system information. Opening from the link in the forum brings up the page and again is is probably 75%.

As Templot is on this machine, I've downloaded the file and it is much better. I'm able to see the text no problem.

Hope that helps.

Just about to follow your process, so will report back shortly. Last night I made another start with a new plan where I have opened out the parallel tracks to 350mm, aiming to get centres at 28mm. Still some work to do to finish it, but your new system appears to do all I want, so this version may well be binned.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 15:28

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Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin.
Just viewed it on my laptop screen which is 1280 x 800 and at full screen is actually quiet sharp and easy to follow. Will try it on my desktop monitor later.
Regards
Tony.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 15:40

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just discovered something. Opened the link on my Mac desktop and the video appeared. Bottom left is an HD icon and clicking on that I saw three settings, original, 720p which was selected and 480p.

Selecting original improved things considerably and the text is now clear and easy to read.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 16:29

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the feedback on the videos. Not sure where that leaves me. :?

4 levels of sub-menu was silly, so I have replaced them with a more convenient dialog:

2_141127_070000000.png2_141127_070000000.png

I could go on making changes like this forever, but it takes ages to do and I need to get 226e out. So I had better draw a line at this.

p.s. and with this, we have 30,000 posts on Templot Cub. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 16:32

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin, very much appreciated and I doubt any of us would have got this far without your help, encouragement and support. Here's to the next 30,000...:thumb:

posted: 14 Jun 2020 16:52

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just a bit of feedback. Tried to follow the video, but the Mimic Panel Design Aid doesn't appear at the bottom of the page menu in Sketchboard in 226d.

Not a problem as I'm happy to wait. Just feedback for you.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 17:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Just a bit of feedback. Tried to follow the video, but the Mimic Panel Design Aid doesn't appear at the bottom of the page menu in Sketchboard in 226d.

Not a problem as I'm happy to wait. Just feedback for you.
Hi Gordon,

Yes, that's all new in the last 24 hours. That's why I'm trying to get 226e finished, tested and released.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jun 2020 17:23

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks. Happy to wait, so no rush....:thumb:

posted: 15 Jun 2020 07:45

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Thanks. Happy to wait, so no rush....:thumb:
Hi Gordon,

226e is now on the server. :)

Your copy of Templot should update automatically if you restart it and follow the notes.

Breakfast, and I will then get an updated video done.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jun 2020 10:37

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, just taken a quick look before being dragged into the garden and it looks brilliant!

Many thanks for all the hard work you have put in to make this possible.

posted: 15 Jun 2020 11:10

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Gordon S
 
 

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All went well until right at the end. Where do I find 'no select for an image'?
I can't see it any of the menu's so is it an item at the load metafile stage? If so and having gone past that stage, I assume I have to start again....:D

Not a problem at all to do that....

First print looks great..
Last edited on 15 Jun 2020 11:12 by Gordon S
posted: 15 Jun 2020 11:24

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
All went well until right at the end. Where do I find 'no select for an image'?
Hi Gordon,

No need to start again. It's here (for any sketchboard item):

2_150622_400000000.png2_150622_400000000.png


p.s. for the PDF, change the DPI to 300. I need to do more on this.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jun 2020 11:32

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks again. Found it...

It's all gone very well and I'm pleased with the output. I've found out that I can widen the parallel track spacing by increasing the page width and it's easy to set the track width at the outset.

I will print out a pdf full size now and set out about the final tweaks where I may have turnouts too close to each other or not symmetrical.

I can spend days doing that sort of stuff. Just one of my hang ups.....:D

posted: 15 Jun 2020 12:12

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
I will print out a pdf full size now
Hi Gordon,

For the PDF, change this to 300 DPI (or less if necessary), otherwise you may not get a full page. I need to do more work on this:

2_150707_340000000.png2_150707_340000000.png


For the initial export boundary on the trackpad, you can make fine adjustments using these mouse actions (sorry no keyboard shortcuts):

2_150710_360000000.png2_150710_360000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jun 2020 13:01

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

Please ignore this if it's all getting too many confusing options. :?

Instead of creating a metafile and using it on the sketchboard, you could go straight to a PDF if you preferred. There are lots of PDF editor / desktop publishing programs you could use for the annotations (I use PagePlus).

You would first need to

1. move the page origin to the corner of the export rectangle.

2. set the output scaling to about 8% , i.e. 100 divided by 12.51 (or whatever):

2_150743_540000002.png2_150743_540000002.png


3. and set the PDF page size:

2_150743_530000000.png2_150743_530000000.png


This is the result:

2_150743_540000001.png2_150743_540000001.png

Just another option.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jun 2020 14:26

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, been playing around and all is well, but I am considering turning the schematic into a U shape with the incoming lines on the left, ET station across the top and the various sidings etc on the right, extending down on the right side.

This would allow more space for the various turnouts etc and allow the ECoS to sit in the centre of the open U.

I've played around with a few bits of track and of course 45 degree lines are ideal to move from the vertical to the horizontal and then back to the vertical.

The turnouts I have at present go down to 1:1.5 which is around 34 degrees.

Would it be easy to generate a 1:1 turnout purely for track/mimic diagrams? I'm assuming 1:1 would provide 45 degrees.....

Honestly, this is just a what if scenario, so if it's a simple solution, great, but any more than 5 minutes work, don't worry........

posted: 15 Jun 2020 14:56

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Would it be easy to generate a 1:1 turnout purely for track/mimic diagrams? I'm assuming 1:1 would provide 45 degrees.....
Hi Gordon,

Change to a curviform V-crossing, set the F9 option to keep gaunt offset constant (zero), and adjust F9 until you get 45 degrees (1:1) at the TVJP (CTRL-6):

2_150949_530000000.png2_150949_530000000.png

Box file below. Copy to the control as needed.

Bear in mind that the angle will change when it is distorted to fit the sketchboard.

I would rather not try to go below 1.5 for crossing angles. The maths gets very flaky with curved turnouts, I already went down from 1:2 to 1:1.5 a few years ago, losing much hair in the process. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_3090_3667_gordon_45deg.box     72

posted: 15 Jun 2020 14:59

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Gordon S
 
 

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Scouts Honour I will never use them other than in a track diagram.....:D

I just wanted to see what is feasible now I have a new toy to play with....

posted: 16 Jun 2020 05:12

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

see also:

 topic 3701

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 16 Jun 2020 18:44

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, experimentation is going well, but another question for you, which is really down to my inexperience of Templot.

I downloaded the 45 deg box file, but of course I recognise the make crossover demand won't work. I was planning to store the 45 degree turnouts on the drawing page and then simply copy them each time I needed them.

I did start thinking whether it was better to hold a complete LH and RH crossover once I decided the best parallel track distance. Is holding a pair of crossovers off to the side of the plan the best way of holding them in a library to be used when needed or is there a far better way? Of course I'm assuming I can't import them anywhere, hence my thought of holding them on the page.

posted: 16 Jun 2020 18:54

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Add the box file to your trackplan. files > (open) then add

Move the templates down below your actual plan.

Copy the 45-degree turnout to the control (click on it, then copy to the control or press C).

Move it to where you want it, F7.

To make a crossover from it, set the TS track centres, then put the peg on TXP (CTRL+5 shortcut).

Set geometry > turnout-road exit length > crossover.

Or peg on TVJP if you prefer it wider (CTRL+6).

Store & background (INSERT key).

Then rotate it 180 degrees (SHIFT+F8). (geometry > shift/rotate > menu items).

Store & background again (INSERT key).

After doing that, copy one of them back to the control if you want another.

typing fast because major thunderstorm about to hit and may lose power,

M.

posted: 16 Jun 2020 20:04

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Gordon S
 
 

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We had that just after 4pm this afternoon. Just managed to finish golf before the heavens opened.

Many thanks as always. Using your method and just started a U shaped plan with a straight plan to fall back on. Hoping to get more done this week.

Batten down the hatches. We had hail and torrential rain, but no damage at all.....

posted: 18 Jun 2020 15:35

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Gordon S
 
 

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Afternoon all...
Thanks to Martin and the various updates to Templot, I think I've arrived at a basic mimic diagram. Basic, in terms of track layout, but there is still much to add in way of text to identify led positions, possible switch positions and route identities.

I followed all of Martin's notes and have arrived at a track plan that fits a 1000 x 600mm panel size with 6mm tracks and track centres of 28mm. Those sizes were chosen to accept the DCC Concepts led's.

The actual turnouts I've used are 1.5's and the parallel track spacing is 280mm. The track centre line thickness was set at 60mm.

It took several attempts at the overall plan and values for the various critical elements, but in the end determination saw me through....:D

The process at first sight appears complex, but once you get your head around the various parameters, it's fairly straightforward and overall I'm pleased with the outcome.

Next step will be to print out the whole plan on A4 sheets and lay them out on a table to see if there are any further adjustments required before going to print.

Not sure how to do that as just pressing print actual page size from Sketchboard only prints one page. What am I missing?

Many thanks Martin. It couldn't have been accomplished without your assistance and involvement.

479_181033_460000000.jpg479_181033_460000000.jpg



posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:00

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Not sure how to do that as just pressing print actual page size from Sketchboard only prints one page. What am I missing?
Hi Gordon,

Looking good. :)

You need to print the sheets one at a time.

Set the top-left corner co-ordinates for each sheet before printing it:

2_181052_030000000.png2_181052_030000000.png

Sorry there is no automation for that. You will need to measure carefully in fitting the sheets together.

For a quick test print, you can also set the top-left corner by right-clicking the location on the sketchboard. Menu item at the bottom of the right-click menu.

At some stage I'm going to do a re-write of the sketchboard print/output functions, Nils's code is just too tangled to follow, and uses vast amounts of memory.

I'm just now making the proper mimic panel video with notes and explanations, but it's slow going. I would far rather be writing code, but it just has to be done. Time for some lunch I think.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:20

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. I've been doing the single page print full size to check the parallel spacing and line thickness, but hadn't appreciated I couldn't print the whole plan full size via sketchboard.

No problem, I'll have a play around in the full size plan in Templot and choose an approximate reduction size that will at least give me some idea of how it will look and that should show any areas that can be improved.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:28

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Thanks Martin. I've been doing the single page print full size to check the parallel spacing and line thickness, but hadn't appreciated I couldn't print the whole plan full size via sketchboard.
Hi Gordon,

You CAN print it all full-size from the sketchboard. See my previous post.

1. print the first page.

2. set the the top-left for the next page, to maybe 280mm, 0mm, for A4 sheets.

3. print the next page.

And so on.

Trim and fit them together.

I will add this into the video.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:35

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Gordon S
 
 

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I did read that, but thought it might be easier to do it from the track plan and save you a bit of work.....

Maybe it's far simpler than it sounds..:thumb:

posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:45

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Maybe it's far simpler than it sounds..:thumb:
Hi Gordon,

Seems simple enough to me. For A4 just keep adding 280mm on X, or 200mm on Y, until you have covered the whole control panel. It surely can't be so big that it can't be printed on just a few A4 sheets? :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 16:51

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Gordon S
 
 

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That assumes we know which is X and which is Y.....:D

I do know, but my brain was getting scrambled with the addition and the X and Y axis....

Like anything else, if you're doing it every day, it's second nature. For those of us who pick it up every six months, it's a bit more of a challenge....:D:D

I'm giving it a go right now...:thumb:

posted: 18 Jun 2020 17:05

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
That assumes we know which is X and which is Y.....:D
Hi Gordon,

Move the mouse and watch the numbers (red numbers, yellow rulers, in page mode): :)

2_181204_070000000.png2_181204_070000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 17:24

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Gordon S
 
 

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OK, it was easier than I expected. Just needed to unscrambled my brain first.....:D
There's a lot of stuff going on in there right now...

479_181223_060000000.jpg479_181223_060000000.jpg



posted: 18 Jun 2020 17:44

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Martin Wynne
 
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Glad it worked -- I never actually tested it. :)

(uses too much ink)

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 20:21

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

This is the most I can do in the short term:

2_181516_030000000.png2_181516_030000000.png

Will be in the next program update.

Anything more will have to wait until I can do a re-write of the entire sketchboard output. It needs a visible draggable sheet rectangle on the screen, and a proper dialog of output options.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jun 2020 21:31

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Gordon S
 
 

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You spoil us, you really do......:thumb:

posted: 19 Jun 2020 10:49

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Gordon S
 
 

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So far, so good....
It's starting to take shape. Just one thing is starting to bug me (my problem, not Templot) is that I have a need to get all the dots exactly the same and in some kind of symmetry.

Size is not a problem, but my brain needs to see them in a perfect grid pattern where they line up and are equidistant.......:D:D

Do I need more therapy or is there a simple solution such as an overlay that can assist me get all these lovely dots in symmetrical alignment.

As always, Martin, I'm not asking to add to your workload, just wondered if you knew of a simple solution...:D

479_190545_350000000.jpg479_190545_350000000.jpg





posted: 19 Jun 2020 11:19

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Do I need more therapy or is there a simple solution such as an overlay that can assist me get all these lovely dots in symmetrical alignment.
Hi Gordon,

Sure. You can align items, or snap them to a grid. Here's a quick bit of scruff video:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=9WLU2Z56I_sSLiktb0ZZ9A2

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 11:24

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Gordon S
 
 

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I guessed you'd know exactly what to do....:thumb:

Thanks. I couldn't face therapy again.....:D

posted: 19 Jun 2020 13:05

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Gordon S
 
 

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Sorry Martin, one more question. Is it easy to change the original track plan colour in Sketchboard or do I have to go back into Templot proper and change it there and then export it again as a metafile?

Not a problem if that's the only way as it's still early days and I'm experimenting.

I was thinking of changing it to dark blue to bring it more in line with the LNER colours.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 13:41

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Sorry Martin, one more question. Is it easy to change the original track plan colour in Sketchboard or do I have to go back into Templot proper and change it there and then export it again as a metafile?
Hi Gordon,

In theory you can change it on the sketchboard. In practice it won't work because I've currently got a maximum line thickness setting for the metafile edit box, which is probably thinner than your current lines. Also you can only set one thickness and colour for all the lines in the metafile, which would include the platform outlines.

So generally it's 10 times easier to create a new metafile from the trackpad. That way you could have different marker colours for different areas, or for the Up and Down lines, say.

Before you can delete the existing metafile you will need to go to options > allow all items to be selected, if you have set no select on it.

When you add the new metafile, it will be in front of your LED symbols. Click edit > send item to back to fix that. Then no select again.

p.s. ignore references to "trackplan" in the menus. You haven't got a trackplan item, you've got an ordinary image item.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 14:25

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. I went back to the trackpad and changed it there. I didn't occur to me to use multiple selections in Sketchpad, but that made it a doddle to put the leds back. I just set up a group of three and a group of two and then just copied them into each position. 

Interesting thought to have up and down in different colours and great to know I haven't got to replace all the led's and switches if I generate another metafile.

I'm glad you did the video as that's the only way I would have picked up that horizontal and vertical were 'reversed'. Don't take that literally, as I'm sure there's a reason for it, in the same way landscape and portrait appear in print commands.

It's OK, I realised afterwards it wasn't a trackplan and was actually a metafile image. Easy to forget.....

Very pleased the way it's turning out.

Next decision will be the switches and where to place them. I've added yellow circles to represent the switch positions. They have to go to the side of the crossovers unless they take the place of the centre led. Is there a 'normal' way of doing this? In the Dean Park video, he numbered each one and then had a line of switches below, but to me that brings into another step in the process, when having to look up a number, remember it and then throw the corresponding switch.

479_190924_010000000.jpg479_190924_010000000.jpg




posted: 19 Jun 2020 14:59

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote: 
that horizontal and vertical were 'reversed'. Don't take that literally, as I'm sure there's a reason for it, in the same way landscape and portrait appear in print commands.
Hi Gordon,

They aren't reversed. Horizontal means they move horizontally into alignment with the others above and below. Vertical means they move vertically into alignment with the others at each side.

However, I agree the wording isn't too clear, I will try changing it.

Next decision will be the switches and where to place them. I've added yellow circles to represent the switch positions. They have to go to the side of the crossovers unless they take the place of the centre led. Is there a 'normal' way of doing this? In the Dean Park video, he numbered each one and then had a line of switches below, but to me that brings into another step in the process, when having to look up a number, remember it and then throw the corresponding switch.
I don't know what the "normal" way would be. As I mentioned on RMweb, my preference would be for a rotary switch with a pointer knob. The pointer then indicates which way the points are set, and you hardly need the LED indicators. The rotary switches which I linked to have 45-degree indexing, which makes them ideal.

For crossovers you need only one switch, which for me would be at the "A" end of the crossover (the end nearest the signal box). Or for facing crossovers into goods loops, etc., the switch would be at the facing end in the running line.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 17:12

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Martin Wynne
 
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An updated edited video with notes and explanations is now available:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=MK235-KMuTqJodwEqNgimg2

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 17:32

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Gordon S
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Gordon S wrote: 
that horizontal and vertical were 'reversed'. Don't take that literally, as I'm sure there's a reason for it, in the same way landscape and portrait appear in print commands.
Hi Gordon,

They aren't reversed. Horizontal means they move horizontally into alignment with the others above and below. Vertical means they move vertically into alignment with the others at each side.

However, I agree the wording isn't too clear, I will try changing it.

Next decision will be the switches and where to place them. I've added yellow circles to represent the switch positions. They have to go to the side of the crossovers unless they take the place of the centre led. Is there a 'normal' way of doing this? In the Dean Park video, he numbered each one and then had a line of switches below, but to me that brings into another step in the process, when having to look up a number, remember it and then throw the corresponding switch.
I don't know what the "normal" way would be. As I mentioned on RMweb, my preference would be for a rotary switch with a pointer knob. The pointer then indicates which way the points are set, and you hardly need the LED indicators. The rotary switches which I linked to have 45-degree indexing, which makes them ideal.

For crossovers you need only one switch, which for me would be at the "A" end of the crossover (the end nearest the signal box). Or for facing crossovers into goods loops, etc., the switch would be at the facing end in the running line.

cheers,

Martin.
Thanks Martin. Funny how we all interpret things differently....No problem at all.
We went through rotary switches last time and whilst I can't fault the logic, the DCC Concepts control system requires momentary switches and I can't see how you can have a momentary rotary switch....

I was surprised as Tortoise motors are stall motors and need continual voltage, but the switching is all in the electronics and not the switch.

Thanks for the prototype info. Always invaluable, but I was thinking more in terms of ease of operation and the aesthetics of the panel.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 17:39

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
the DCC Concepts control system requires momentary switches
Hi Gordon,

That's a surprise. But in that case the obvious control would be push-buttons?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 17:47

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Gordon S
 
 

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I did wonder that, but a centre off momentary switch does mean you push the switch in the direction you want to set.

OK, once you accept the logic you would know to only push the button if the route required changing.

Space wise, a push button would certainly save space and keep a low profile on the panel versus a toggle switch.

I'll certainly clarify that point again.....

posted: 19 Jun 2020 18:16

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Trevor Walling
 
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Hello Gordon,
                  If the LED's illuminate to match the switch settings do you actually need circles for the switch positions? Simply  locating them at the start (foot or is it heel?)of of each turnout would look tidier.
Different circles for them are making the panel plan look rather cluttered.
Regards
Trevor :)

posted: 19 Jun 2020 18:35

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thinking about it a push button could offer a momentary pulse, but the polarity would be the same.

A momentary switch with a centre off would offer a reversed polarity pulse. I suspect you would need two push buttons to perform the same role.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 19:21

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Martin Wynne
 
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Trevor Walling wrote:
the start (foot or is it heel?)of of each turnout
Toe. :)

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 19:25

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Thinking about it a push button could offer a momentary pulse, but the polarity would be the same.

A momentary switch with a centre off would offer a reversed polarity pulse. I suspect you would need two push buttons to perform the same role.
Hi Gordon,

Yes, I meant two push buttons, one in each route of the turnout.

You can get them with integral LEDs, serving both purposes in one go. But they are a lot pricier than plain push-buttons.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jun 2020 19:35

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Gordon S
 
 

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.... and who's got 72 red/green led's.......:D

On that note, I'm going to watch Spurs demolish Utd......

posted: 19 Jun 2020 20:09

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Martin Wynne
 
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Martin Wynne wrote:
So generally it's 10 times easier to create a new metafile from the trackpad.
Hi Gordon,

I should have added that if in the process you want to change the boundary rectangle, or sketchboard page size, and use the design aid again, you should click this first:

2_191504_210000000.png2_191504_210000000.png

Otherwise the new calculations will be wrong.

But don't click it if you are simply creating a new metafile, otherwise the existing setting will be lost.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Jul 2020 11:00

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just to close the loop, this is the final product.....It hasn't taken three weeks, family issues intervened and I only picked it up again a couple of days ago.

Overall, I'm pleased with the result, so many thanks to Martin for his guidance during this project...

Final panel size is 1000mm x 300mm.

479_120600_030000000.png479_120600_030000000.png
Last edited on 12 Jul 2020 11:01 by Gordon S
posted: 13 Jul 2020 08:09

from:

Hayfield
 
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Well worth the effort from all parties. Looks very professional but then so does every aspect of ET.

posted: 13 Jul 2020 13:56

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, whilst programming routes on my ECoS controller I've realised that I have made a fundamental error drawing the schematic in Templot. I have two sets of turnouts out of position and will need to modify the track plan to correct it.
479_130903_160000000.jpg479_130903_160000000.jpg

This is not the latest sketch board drawing, but the principle is the same.

Is it going to be possible to amend the track plan in Templot and then add it back into sketch board without losing all the platforms, line numbers, logo etc or once I've made the track change will I have to start all over again with the text additions etc?
Last edited on 13 Jul 2020 14:03 by Gordon S
posted: 13 Jul 2020 16:53

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Looking good. :)

You don't need to re-do all your annotations and mark-up.

However, there is no easy way to edit the track image on the sketchboard, you need to create at new one, in the same way as the first one.

When you do this it is important to use exactly the same dimensions as before -- otherwise your mark-up won't be aligned in the right place on the tracks. Did you make a note of the dimensions of the boundary rectangle which you drew on the trackpad? You can re-enter them, or see what they are, by clicking this button:

2_131127_360000000.png2_131127_360000000.png

If you didn't, it might require a bit of trial and error drawing the new rectangle to re-create the previous one and get a satisfactory result. I will look at adding a record of the settings somewhere.

This is what do do on the sketchboard:

1. save an SK9 sketchboard file as a backup.

2. click options > allow all items to be selected menu item (you probably have no select set for the track image).

3. click on the track image. It's a metafile, so you need to click on the track, not the empty space between the tracks.Take care not to select any of your mark-up by mistake -- the modify tab on the control panel should show metafile image.

4. click edit > delete item(s) menu item to delete it.

5. repeat the process of adding the new track image from the trackpad.

6. it will appear initially in front of the annotations, so before you set no select, click edit > send item to back menu item.

7. click no select for it.

8. save a new SK9 file.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 Jul 2020 20:42

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. Sadly the boundary info wasn't there (down to me, not Templot) and I tried various earlier versions but none of them lined up, so I bit the bullet and started again. I have most of it done, so no problem. Just have the led's to add now.

I realised before I asked that the boundary info was probably the only point of reference, so I will be more careful next time.....

Having learned the hard way on 'no select' it would be a great help if you could switch on and off 'no select on each item. I'm finding that I protect items using no select regularly as I don't want to inadvertently move something, but the problem comes when you have to allow items to be selected as a global command. The only way you can protect every item again is to go back one at a time, which is a bit of a pain.

It may well be I've misunderstood, but if not, is there another way of allowing a single item to be selected, make the change and then apply no select again? It would certainly make life a lot easier when you have 40 or 50 items on top of a track plan in Sketchboard.

posted: 13 Jul 2020 21:20

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
It may well be I've misunderstood, but if not, is there another way of allowing a single item to be selected, make the change and then apply no select again?
Hi Gordon,

To avoid accidentally moving items or deleting them, don't use no select, use the various lock options:

2_131604_160000000.png2_131604_160000000.png

Locked items can still be selected, so you can unlock them, move them, and then lock them again.

I will see if I can add a no modify option to lock everything in one go, and also prevent changes to colours, etc.

The problem with no select is that once set, there is no way to select the item to change anything, including changing no select ! I might be able to find a way, by displaying a clickable list of all items.

It's primarily intended only for background images, etc., which are likely to be frequently clicked accidentally.

It really is time I wrote a proper set of instructions for the sketchboard. :( Have you found the copyboard (show copyboard button)? It's a scratchpad area to/from which you can copy and paste items from the sketchboard as needed. Items show at half-size to save screen space.

I'm very sorry that Templot didn't record your boundary settings, I should have realised the need for that years ago. I have now added it -- see my previous post.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 Jul 2020 21:42

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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No need to apologise, Martin. Just one of those things that you learn the hard way.....
Now I know what to do, I’ve tried deleting the track plan and then reintroducing it and it all lined up perfectly.

Thanks for explaining the lock function. I thought it might be my lack of understanding of a new area, so that will make life much easier.

The other bit of good news is that I have re configured the track plan on the ECoS to reflect the mimic diagram and that’s a whole lot clearer. I’m part way through one side setting up the routes and have 40% of it completed. Each platform now has four route buttons corresponding to the four main lines. All you need do is select line 1,2,3 or 4 and it sets all the pointwork perfectly. It’s the same process for trains leaving. Just decide which outgoing line and the route setting takes care of everything.

I finally feel I’m getting somewhere and will look forward to seeing the mimic panel in action.



posted: 13 Jul 2020 21:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
All you need do is select line 1,2,3 or 4 and it sets all the pointwork perfectly. It’s the same process for trains leaving. Just decide which outgoing line and the route setting takes care of everything.
Hi Gordon,

Great! I'm glad it is coming together after all your efforts.

p.s.
Don't forget edit > combine items and edit > split items. You can combine multiple items into a single item, and move it or lock it in one go. It's a great help when working with a lot of items. Easy to split again when you want access to one of the items. To select multiple items, drag around them, or hold down SHIFT and click one at a time. Click it again to deselect any selected by mistake.

You can also copy and paste combined items, for example a group of LEDs.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 Jul 2020 22:31

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks again. I stumbled across the shift/select and have been using that with three led’s at a time with crossovers. I then delete one and follow the same process with simple turnouts.

There is just so much depth to Templot and I’m just scratching the surface. The problem as always is once you complete a project it may be months before you pick it up again and then you’ve probably forgotten most of what you learned....:-)

Golf tomorrow, so I’ll enjoy some fresh air and a bit of banter.....

posted: 14 Jul 2020 18:26

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Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, just opened up Templot again to work on my panel and saw straight away the boundary rectangle had disappeared. Checked the set numbers and they were 0,0,1200 and 600, which was the same as yesterday. Decided to reload the file which I saved last night before switching off and the same thing. No boundary and the same numbers...

Have I missed something or is it not saving the boundary? Yesterday the boundary was there as I was able to delete the track plan and reload with everything in perfect alignment.

OK, I'm hoping there won't be any more changes, but without the boundary frame, I'll be back to square one. Is the boundary frame a 'shape' or similar that I have to reload or is it just not being saved?

posted: 14 Jul 2020 19:53

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Gordon S
 
 

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Meant to say something else I've noticed.

Several times I've gone to save the Sketchboard file and the 'save as' is greyed out. I don't want to leave it as I don't know where I was up to when I last saved. The only way round that is to click on the Templot diagram and then go back into Sketchboard where 'save as' is now normal.

Never noticed this before. Is it greyed out because there are no changes since the last save or has something changed either with Templot or Windows?

There was a Windows update either yesterday or the day before so wondered if that had changed anything (Windows 10).

Not life or death, but thought I'd ask...

posted: 14 Jul 2020 21:57

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Several times I've gone to save the Sketchboard file and the 'save as' is greyed out.
Hi Gordon,

Thanks for reporting this. In theory it's because you haven't made any changes since the last Save.

However, Save As should never be disabled because even though you haven't made any changes, you may want to save it again under a different file name.

I will get this fixed as soon as possible. In the meantime, the way to get Save As enabled again is to click the sketchboard button on the trackpad.

As I mentioned the sketchboard engine uses Nils's code, not mine. I have made some wholesale mods to the code, so I would be a bit wary of assuming that there are no changes whatsoever since the last Save. I could easily have wrecked something. :(

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 14 Jul 2020 22:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Have I missed something or is it not saving the boundary? Yesterday the boundary was there as I was able to delete the track plan and reload with everything in perfect alignment.

OK, I'm hoping there won't be any more changes, but without the boundary frame, I'll be back to square one. Is the boundary frame a 'shape' or similar that I have to reload or is it just not being saved?
Hi Gordon,

At present the output boundary rectangle is never saved anywhere, and never has been.

As originally designed it didn't need to be, because the trackplan item on the sketchboard is updated every time and all other items re-aligned automatically.

But you are not using the trackplan item. You are using an ordinary metafile image, to allow for the mimic panel data-distortion.

As I mentioned, the Y-scaling data-distortion function hadn't been used for 25 years, so it didn't play any part in my previous thinking about the sketchboard. I then used it as part of the mimic panel design aid, and failed to properly think everything through. The boundary rectangle in that case needs to be recorded somewhere so that it can be re-usable.

I will get all this fixed. It was all done in a bit of a rush to try to keep up with you at the time. :)

In the meantime you MUST do this. Before quitting Templot, click this button:

2_131127_360000000.png2_131127_360000000.png

WRITE DOWN the dimensions shown for X1,Y1, X2,Y2. They won't be saved anywhere at all once you quit Templot.

If you used the mimic aid, also WRITE DOWN this Y-scaling figure:

2_141718_280000000.png2_141718_280000000.png

Again, it is not saved anywhere.

When you start the next program session, click the set... button again to create the previous boundary rectangle. Enter the X1 and X2 dimensions which you wrote down previously.

For the Y1 and Y2 dimensions, if you used the mimic aid divide the Y dimensions which you wrote down by the Y-scaling percentage. i.e. in the above case divide them by 4.4308 . So if you wrote down 560 mm , dividing by 4.4308 gives you 126.39mm. Enter that to recreate your original starting rectangle. Don't divide the X dimensions.

I will get all this fixed somehow and iron out some other rough edges. But I doubt I can do it before you want to get your panel printed, so use the above workarounds.

Generally speaking, when using Templot, if you see or set a dimension which you might need to refer back to later, write it down. It helps to keep a Templot notebook. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 16 Jul 2020 15:08

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

I have made some changes for the next program update:

2_160959_100000000.png2_160959_100000000.png

The export rectangle data will now be embedded in exported metafiles, in a similar way to EXIF data in a photo.

It will be shown on the sketchboard control panel as above, and included in SK9 sketchboard files.

From where it can be copied and pasted as needed.

Alternatively, by clicking the button the original rectangle will be reset on the trackpad, so that a fresh metafile can be exported exactly matching the dimensions of the previous one.

In 227a soon.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 16 Jul 2020 17:18

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Gordon S
 
 

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Many thanks Martin. Whilst doing the routes on my ECoS I've found another crossover will be useful, so I'll amend the plan and reload again. I can probably realign all the bit parts of the non track layer and have no problem with that.

Having the export rectangle data will be invaluable though for future users to save them having to do it again. You only find out about these things by user testing as it's impossible for you to cover every element.

Happy to have been of help.....

posted: 22 Jul 2020 13:29

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Gordon S
 
 

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Sorry to be a pain, Martin, but can you post the info you gave yesterday on reducing the mimic panel size. I completely forgot RMweb is down today. Of course it may be only an hour but could be all day and I was hoping to play around with it this afternoon.

Many thanks as always.
EDIT: No problem Martin. RMweb is back up....
Last edited on posted: 22 Jul 2020 14:34 by Gordon S
22 Jul 2020 14:34

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Sorry to be a pain, Martin, but can you post the info you gave yesterday on reducing the mimic panel size. I completely forgot RMweb is down today. Of course it may be only an hour but could be all day and I was hoping to play around with it this afternoon.

Many thanks as always.
Hi Gordon,

Here you go:

  > Is there a quick way to reduce the size of my Sketchboard drawing, Martin?

Sure, but take it slowly and methodically:

1. write down the original page size. Divide the width by the height and write down the original aspect ratio.

2. save an SK9 backup file of the original.

3. decide if you want to include the original track diagram in the size change. If so, options > allow all items to be selected.

4. select all the items you want resized. You can drag a fence rectangle around the whole lot, and/or shift-click each one. You may need to do that to get the track diagram included.

5. make sure you have selected all of them before proceeding.

6. click edit > combine items. You now have a single item containing everything.

7. now on the modify tab, write down the figures showing for width and depth. If you didn't include the track diagram, these will be less than the full page size because of any margin spaces you have allowed in the design.

8. on the
page tab, change to the new page size. It needs to have the same aspect ratio as before, or very close, otherwise you will end up with elliptical LEDs.

9. you can now resize the combined item to fit the new page. If the new aspect ratio is exactly the same as before, and you included the original track diagram, click edit > re-size item to fill page.

    If not, you can either drag the corner of the combined item  to fit the new page, or change the width and depth figures directly. If dragging, the aspect ratio will be locked, and circular items will stay circular. If entering dimensions it won't be -- it is up to you to change each of the dimensions by the same factor to preserve the aspect ratio. After resizing, you will probably want to move it around a bit too for the best fit to the new page.

10. now click edit > split items to regain access to each one.

11. save another SK9 file.

12. if it's all gone wrong, you can use the figures you wrote down to get back, or reload the original SK9. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 22 Jul 2020 14:40

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Gordon S
 
 

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That's great, Martin. I meant to post a pic on here for those that have been following this thread. Please note this is only a mock up and not the finished article. I'm still playing around with a few ideas, but at least you can see it's all turned out fairly well.

479_220938_160000000.jpg479_220938_160000000.jpg

479_220940_110000000.jpg479_220940_110000000.jpg
Last edited on 22 Jul 2020 14:41 by Gordon S
posted: 22 Jul 2020 16:10

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Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

The full size mimics that I have seen at Waterloo 1970 and Westbury around 20 years ago, only had the route illuminated, so were only white. I think the Waterloo ones were probably bulbs, whereas Westbury was probably LEDs.

Nice work though and you can see which way the turnouts are thrown which is the main aim of the job.

Will you be adding additional LEDs to show that the signals are set, which extinguish as the train passes and they return to red?

Cheers

Phil.

posted: 22 Jul 2020 16:21

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Phil. That's one of the issues I'm pondering. I was torn between plain green and red/green led's. Still not sure if the dual colour is an overkill, so I'm going to build another part panel with just plain green or blue led's. The other thing is that the panel size is dictated by the size of the led bezels.

The product from DCC Concepts is fine, so this is purely personal presence. By reducing the led diameter, it would allow me to reduce the panel size.

Signalling is going to be a complex matter and there I will take advice from the experts, but I see no reason why they couldn't be incorporated into the panel other than making it over complex with far too many illuminated led's.

posted: 22 Jul 2020 18:10

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Phil O
 
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Gordon,

I can understand how quickly the panel could become a right rats nest of wiring and would turn into a nightmare when trying to fault find. I look forward to developments on the signalling front.

Cheers

Phil.

posted: 22 Jul 2020 18:51

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Gordon S
 
 

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That’s one of the benefits of DCC, the wiring is very simple. Each turnout has two led’s and they are all numbered L and R on the control board. Every led has it’s own two pin plug which simply plugs in directly to the control board. Each control board covers 12 turnouts or up to 12 crossovers as each crossover only needs one pair of outputs. Within this panel I have three control boards covering 46 turnouts and driving 76 LEDs

There are only two output wires and they go to the main DCC bus. Within the ECoS, I have over 60 routes set so that every line is capable of accessing every platform in either direction, plus access to other areas of the layout. I find it hard to believe that all of this info is coded into the two supply wires. I would have no idea where to start if I wanted the same options in DC. I know it doesn’t suit everyone, but personally I find it simplifies things considerably and provides tremendous flexibility for those of us without electronic degrees....

Even as someone who has no more than a basic understanding, fault finding is a simple process of elimination by trying different outputs or different LEDs in a variety of sockets.

Last edited on 22 Jul 2020 18:52 by Gordon S
posted: 25 Jul 2020 12:48

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Gordon S
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Gordon S wrote:
Sorry to be a pain, Martin, but can you post the info you gave yesterday on reducing the mimic panel size. I completely forgot RMweb is down today. Of course it may be only an hour but could be all day and I was hoping to play around with it this afternoon.

Many thanks as always.
Hi Gordon,

Here you go:

  > Is there a quick way to reduce the size of my Sketchboard drawing, Martin?

Sure, but take it slowly and methodically:

1. write down the original page size. Divide the width by the height and write down the original aspect ratio.

2. save an SK9 backup file of the original.

3. decide if you want to include the original track diagram in the size change. If so, options > allow all items to be selected.

4. select all the items you want resized. You can drag a fence rectangle around the whole lot, and/or shift-click each one. You may need to do that to get the track diagram included.

5. make sure you have selected all of them before proceeding.

6. click edit > combine items. You now have a single item containing everything.

7. now on the modify tab, write down the figures showing for width and depth. If you didn't include the track diagram, these will be less than the full page size because of any margin spaces you have allowed in the design.

8. on the
page tab, change to the new page size. It needs to have the same aspect ratio as before, or very close, otherwise you will end up with elliptical LEDs.

9. you can now resize the combined item to fit the new page. If the new aspect ratio is exactly the same as before, and you included the original track diagram, click edit > re-size item to fill page.

    If not, you can either drag the corner of the combined item  to fit the new page, or change the width and depth figures directly. If dragging, the aspect ratio will be locked, and circular items will stay circular. If entering dimensions it won't be -- it is up to you to change each of the dimensions by the same factor to preserve the aspect ratio. After resizing, you will probably want to move it around a bit too for the best fit to the new page.

10. now click edit > split items to regain access to each one.

11. save another SK9 file.

12. if it's all gone wrong, you can use the figures you wrote down to get back, or reload the original SK9. :)

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin
Been playing around this morning and suspect I may be doing something wrong. I tried selecting all items by drawing round them, but the combine items is greyed out. Then tried selecting them one at a time and ran into problems. There are around 100 separate items and selecting them individually is quite time consuming, but the slightest movement when selecting them, moves them out of position and to my mind negates the whole process. I tried four times to highlight them individually by this method, but each time I got around two thirds through I found something accidentally moved, be it the track plan itself or one of the numerous individual items and had to start again.

I did manage to do it once and even reduced the size, but then didn't get a chance to save it before the track plan moved out of alignment.

Have a missed a stage or is there an easier way to select and combine all the items as one?

posted: 25 Jul 2020 13:09

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:

Have a missed a stage or is there an easier way to select and combine all the items as one?
Hi Gordon,

The only reason the combine items function can be greyed out is that you haven't selected multiple (i.e. at least two) items.

I've just tried it here and it's working fine.

Hang on and I will make a bit of video.

I agree that selecting 100 items one at a time is next to impossible.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 13:23

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Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. I'll wait for the video.

I tried selecting two items and then the combine is OK, but that only combines the two items I've selected.

The bit I'm missing is selecting the whole lot by using the click drag zoom rectangle. If I select two items first, as soon as I click on the rectangle, it clears those two items. If I combine before using the selection rectangle, it just combines the two selected items.....

I'm sure all will become clear.....:D
Last edited on 25 Jul 2020 13:24 by Gordon S
posted: 25 Jul 2020 13:54

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
I tried selecting two items and then the combine is OK, but that only combines the two items I've selected.
Hi Gordon,

I didn't mean that you should select two items. I meant that because you hadn't selected at least two was the reason the combine function was greyed out.

Anyway, here is the video. Sorry it's scruffy.  Which bit were you missing?

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=9Ll8umJKwsy4RsAQLTa3fA2

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 13:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
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p.s. Gordon,

Just noticed you wrote: click drag zoom rectangle


Don't use the ZOOM rectangle function!

Just click on the sketchboard and drag a rectangle around things.

Martin.


posted: 25 Jul 2020 14:12

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Gordon S
 
 

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Operator error....

I kept clicking the rectangle within the drawing, not outside......

So far so good....:D

posted: 25 Jul 2020 14:23

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Gordon S
 
 

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Also meant to say, I'm having considerable trouble saving items. The little blue ring appears and then you wait....

After a while I close it down and get a message saying Templot is not responding and then I have to close it down completely. The file doesn't save and I have to start Templot again to try and save the file.

It was never a problem before, but is now happening regularly, probably four times in the last hour. The save as wasn't greyed out as I raised before, but it won't let me save.

If it helps I'm running this version.

Windows 10 Home Version 1909 OS build 18363.959

Templot 2.26.f

posted: 25 Jul 2020 14:45

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Also meant to say, I'm having considerable trouble saving items. The little blue ring appears and then you wait....

After a while I close it down and get a message saying Templot is not responding and then I have to close it down completely. The file doesn't save and I have to start Templot again to try and save the file.
Hi Gordon,

With no bitmaps in your plan, saving should be almost instant. It's working ok here.

How long does it take to load?

Which font did you use for the totem? Windows often takes a fortnight to save anything which includes certain fonts.

Where are you saving to? Is it somewhere else on a network, or an external drive?

Or have you got some invisible items in the file, 5 miles to the left of your page?

If you could manage to save an SK9 file, and attach it here, I will see if I can find anything in it to explain the slow saving.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 15:06

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Gordon S
 
 

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Just tried again to save this file. To start the save as was greyed out, so I went onto the track plan and back to the sketch board and now it would allow me to save. It must have been impatience on my part earlier, so I just let it run.

It took 1 minute 47 seconds to the hard drive and 1 minute 45 seconds to the USB stick.

From memory I used Tahoma font for the totem as Gill Sans wasn't a choice in Templot. I'm not aware of anything else on/off screen other than Templot.


Last edited on 25 Jul 2020 15:08 by Gordon S
posted: 25 Jul 2020 15:30

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Gordon S
 
 

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Tried attaching the file twice, but nothing showing.....

Try again...

Just checked the file size and it's 33.9Mb, so I guess outside the limit of 15Mb.

Something really strange is happening. On the USB stick it shows the file as 33.9Mb. When I go to save the file, the file size is 33Kb, but it tries to save a file of 32Mb.....

479_251030_380000000.jpg479_251030_380000000.jpg



posted: 25 Jul 2020 15:52

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Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Tried attaching the file twice, but nothing showing.....

Try again...

Just checked the file size and it's 33.9Mb, so I guess outside the limit of 15Mb.

Something really strange is happening. On the USB stick it shows the file as 33.9Mb. When I go to save the file, the file size is 33Kb, but it tries to save a file of 32Mb....
Hi Gordon,

That's 33,000 KB = 33 MB.

Can you try zipping it? Or send it to me by email (if my email will accept such a size).

There is obviously something very wrong to make the file so large. Are you still using a metafile for the track image and not a bitmap?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 16:19

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Gordon S
 
 

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Oooops...:D

Just saved the track plan metafile and it's 611Kb. The ET totem is 6412Kb.

Removing both the track plan and the totem and surprisingly the file size is still 32,184Kb which doesn't make sense at all.

I'll try and Zip the file (not done that before) or send to you by email.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 16:23

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Gordon S
 
 

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Try this....



Attachment: attach_3116_3667_no_totem_or_trackplan.zip     24

posted: 25 Jul 2020 17:16

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Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the file. I had the same problem trying to save it.

Because it contained 2,160 copies of the Tahoma font. How they got there is a mystery to me, bearing in mind that I can't see anything in your file which uses Tahoma? :?

Anyway, here is the file with all that removed, it's 179 KB.

cheers,

Martin.
Attachment: attach_3117_3667_gordon_markup_only.sk9     26

posted: 25 Jul 2020 17:20

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Gordon S
 
 

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It’s just the words Eastwood Town......

How on earth 2,160 copies got into the file God only knows. How can I access this info as I had better check the totem file to see if that 2,160 copies as well......

I may have my moments but couldn’t have pressed that many buttons....:D:D

posted: 25 Jul 2020 18:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
It’s just the words Eastwood Town......

How on earth 2,160 copies got into the file God only knows.
Hi Gordon,

God may know, but I've got an inkling too. :(

You have found me another bug to fix. I can see the multi-line text item inserting multiple copies of its font into the file. How it got to 2,160 is indeed alarming, but I can see the process. It's not actually needed at all for Tahoma to be in the file, because all Windows systems have that font available.

It's a bit of a mystery though, because I can't see that you have any such items in the plan?

Whatever, I suggest not using that item for the present, use instead a formatted text block:

2_251351_340000000.png2_251351_340000000.png

which is just as easy to use, but gives you lots of additional options.

I will get the bug fixed. However it's likely to be deep within Nils's code, so I may gone for some time...

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 19:58

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Gordon S
 
 

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As far as I recall the only text I used was always from the 'sketchboard text one line' button as I had no need for multiple line text. Eastwood Town name and the various text entries on the mimic were all done that way.

2,160 font files is amazing and no wonder the files were so large.

Glad to have stumbled across another possible bug or it may never have surfaced. Sorry it means additional workload for you though....

The good news is I now have a panel 600 x 178 that I'm working on. This will use the DCC Concepts driver boards, but just 3mm led's in a 5mm bezel. Once done I will be able to see which provides the better clarity of routes.

posted: 25 Jul 2020 21:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
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Gordon S wrote:
Glad to have stumbled across another possible bug or it may never have surfaced. Sorry it means additional workload for you though....
Hi Gordon,

Not much work -- I have simply switched off font embedding entirely in the next program update. It was only ever intended to be used for "exotic fonts" and then only for exchanges of sketchboard files between different users/computers where they might not be installed. Barely any practical use in Templot, I don't know why I had it switched on in the first place. On the other hand it's been that way for 10 years without anyone noticeing any problem... :)

Which doesn't explain why the multi-line text item thinks Tahoma is an "exotic font" -- I've been looking at Nils's code for an hour and I'm none the wiser. :?  But with embedding switched off, it has no effect anyway.

One fine day I will set to on the major task of re-writing the sketchboard engine -- it's necessary anyway if it is ever going to get into T3. But not for now.

Glad you are making progress with the mimic panel project. :thumb:

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2020 19:12

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin, just stumbled across a message in Sketchboard that says 'Can't allocate the DIB handle'

No idea what it means, so I will shut down Templot and start again, but thought you may like to know...

posted: 31 Jul 2020 20:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Hi Martin, just stumbled across a message in Sketchboard that says 'Can't allocate the DIB handle'

No idea what it means, so I will shut down Templot and start again, but thought you may like to know...
Thanks Gordon,

DIB is a Device-Independent Bitmap. It's difficult to know why Windows won't accept its handle without knowing what was going on at the time. Do you happen to remember what you were doing when it came up?

As I've mentioned, Nils's code for the sketchboard engine is far more complex than we need for Templot. There are some chunks of it which just baffle me. One day I'm going to have to rewrite it, if ever I'm going to continue to support it as time goes on. In particular, I'm not convinced we need the alpha blending and transparency functions in the Graphics32 package. I would prefer to stick with the Windows GDI so that we can have hatched and bitmap infills instead. That would also allow much faster rendering on the trackpad for sketchboard items. We might even be able to merge it with the background shapes, which was my original intention.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 31 Jul 2020 21:58

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Can’t recall exactly as it wasn’t critical. Possibly trying to select the station platforms to change the colour. I’d previously had them all combined and then split them. The ET totem seems difficult to select and I had to keep taking things from the back to the front.

In the end I just shut Templot down and started afresh with the previously saved version and then was all fine.

Just thought you may like to know.....

posted: 1 Aug 2020 08:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
The ET totem seems difficult to select and I had to keep taking things from the back to the front.
Thanks Gordon.

For the totem, drag a rectangle around it to select all the component items, and then edit > combine items. It then becomes a single item which you can select, move, copy and paste elsewhere, etc.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 4 Aug 2020 16:02

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Many thanks for the note re group colours, Martin. Much appreciated.
This is my panel file which only appears as plain white once saved as a png file....


Attachment: attach_3121_3667_et_600_x_200_white_background.sk9     48

posted: 4 Aug 2020 16:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the SK9 file. It exports to PNG fine here. This is the view in Templot:

2_041127_590000000.png2_041127_590000000.png

Your system might not be happy with such a large bitmap. Try changing the 12000 to 4000 just to see if you get a result.

p.s. your white rectangle is a few mm misaligned on the page. Use the edit > re-size item to fill page menu item, and then lock its size and position. Much easier. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 4 Aug 2020 16:47

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Glad it wasn't me then.....:-)

It worked OK up to 10,000 dpi. Beyond that it was just a white page.

Thanks for the alignment tip. Now done.

Just noticed and checked that I seem to have missed the gaunt settings on one or two turnouts. Probably too late now as I've sent the file, although I may be able to upload it tonight if I'm quick.

The Dibond is white coated aluminium so do I need the white rectangle?

posted: 4 Aug 2020 16:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
The Dibond is white coated aluminium so do I need the white rectangle?
No, delete it.

Martin.

posted: 5 Aug 2020 09:55

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Gordon S
 
 

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Quick question for you Martin. Whilst moving some of the led dots around I must have changed the dimensions marginally by not moving with the hand symbol selected. To correct that I would like to select all the dots individually and then modify multiple items. As a test I've selected four items individually, but then can't see the dimensions part of the menu.

I have modify item: multiple items selected (4 items) in the menu bar but then just a blank space beneath. I was hoping to use that to set all the items at 3mm diameter.

Have I missed something?

posted: 5 Aug 2020 12:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
I have modify item: multiple items selected (4 items) in the menu bar but then just a blank space beneath. I was hoping to use that to set all the items at 3mm diameter.

Have I missed something?
Hi Gordon,

You haven't missed anything. With multiple items selected there is no way to know which one to display the dimensions for.

Sorry, there isn't a function to set multiple items to the same absolute values, you must do each one separately.

You can change only multiple relative dimensions. For example if you have 7 items 5mm wide and want to change them all to 3mm wide, you can do this:

1. select all the items.
2. combine them into a single item.
3. change the overall width of the combined item by the relevant factor,
    i.e. to change from 5mm to 3mm multiply it by 0.6
4. split the items again, they will now all be 3mm wide.

I will look at adding some functions to set multiple items to the same absolute values.

To avoid making mistakes, use the locks.

For example, to create 19 LEDs all 3mm diameter:

1. add the first one.
2. tick the lock size box on the control panel.
3. copy and paste the remaining 18 items, and move each one into position.
4. tick the lock position box for each one.

They will all be locked, and you won't be able to change any of them accidentally with the mouse (you can still change the dimensions of each one on the control panel if needed).

Likewise, if you have a group of 3 LEDs for a crossover, you could combine them into a single item, and then copy and paste it as needed.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Aug 2020 12:07

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin. No harm in checking......:thumb:

posted: 5 Aug 2020 15:06

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Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Gordon,

I'm adding a new function in the next program update. I managed to shoehorn an extra tickbox into the control panel:

2_050953_140000000.png2_050953_140000000.png

Any geometric item can be set as a reference item by ticking the above box (only one item at any time).

Then other items can be selected, and you can modify them to match the reference item, for dimensions and/or colours:

2_050954_520000000.png2_050954_520000000.png

The reference item can be an existing item, or one created for the purpose and afterwards deleted.

Thanks for the suggestion. :thumb:

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Aug 2020 15:29

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Wow, Martin, that's amazing.....:thumb:

posted: 4 Sep 2020 17:16

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Hi Martin
Nothing life or death, but a strange one.....

Still working on my new panel, but something I've come across in Sketchboard.

Here's a 20mm circle added to my plan with the centre of the circle mid point on the track. I've used a larger circle to demonstrate, but it's the same going from 9mm to 7mm.
479_041208_580000000.jpg479_041208_580000000.jpg

If the circle is too large, then I select the object and modify. Changing one dimension to 7mm leaves the original circle on the mid point of the track, suggesting it is using the original circle centre.

479_041208_260000000.jpg479_041208_260000000.jpg

If you then change the second dimension to 7mm, the whole circle is moved away from its original position.

Unfortunately I had to change the size of my own circles from 9mm to 7mm and then had to realign all the circles as they had moved away from their original circle centre point.

I don't think it's something I'm doing.......

479_041210_070000000.jpg479_041210_070000000.jpg
Attachment: attach_3138_3667_DSCF1259.jpg     28

posted: 4 Sep 2020 18:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
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Hi Gordon,

That's correct.

When there isn't a linked trackplan item, the item dimensions show in red, reference the yellow rulers, and the items remain fixed at their top left corners (not their centres). (X and Y dimensions).

When there is a linked trackplan item, the item dimensions show in blue, reference the blue rulers, and the items remain fixed at their bottom left corners (not their centres). (X and Y dimensions).

The "corners" of a circle refer to the bounding rectangle. A "circle" is simply a special case of an ellipse, in which the width and depth are the same size.

Do this:

1. change the widths of circles by say 2mm.

2. change the depths of circles by say 2mm.

3. select all the changed circles.

4. combine them as a single item.

5. change the X and Y dimensions for the combined item by 1mm. They will all move back to their previous centres.

6. split the combined item back to individual circles.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 4 Sep 2020 19:33

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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Thanks Martin.  I guess that makes sense.....:D


posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Gordon S wrote:
Thanks Martin.  I guess that makes sense.....:D

Hi Gordon,

Well yes and no. All sketchboard items have a location specified by the left corner. For some geometric items it would make sense to maintain the centre location instead of the corner when resizing them. Or at least make it an option. On the other hand, not all items have a meaningful centre location:

2_041509_230000000.png2_041509_230000000.png


I could spend months adding extra features and options to the sketchboard. But the reality is that it's peripheral to the core functionality of Templot. It would be a bit daft to spend time adding functions to try to compete with full drawing packages such as CorelDraw or Illustrator. If that's what folks need it would be better to use them, rather than Templot.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:25

from:

Gordon S
 
 

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No worries Martin, I wasn’t expecting it to be changed. Just reporting it in case it was something strange and you weren’t aware of it.

All done now and a new panel has been ordered.



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