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                 Make Diamond Problem
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 14 May 2020 11:44
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Martin,

I've hit a problem this morning and can't seem to get round it.    I'm tryin gto make a switched diamond from two intersection curved tracks and Templot won't give me a result.




I get as far as here,  accepting the notch position,  and when I press the bottom button, nothing happens.   Both tracks are pure curves with no transitions.   For this picture I copied and moved the actual curves from the track diagram to an empty area for clarity.   Any ideas?

Jim.

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message ref: 29692
Attachment: TemplotProblem.jpg (Downloaded 5 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 14 May 2020 12:47
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Jim,

Hmm.

You didn't post a box file, but I tried replicating your screenshot -- and got the same result as you. i.e. no result at all. :?



I will investigate. Thanks for posting.

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 14 May 2020 13:02
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Jim/Martin, I've just attempted the same, and it worked fine. Ian
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4th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2020 14:36
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Ian,

I've tried different placements of the curves and it works as intended. It only seems to be in the particular placement as shown in my picture. I('ve probably hit some magic number that throws the software. :D

Jim.
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5th message | this message only posted: 14 May 2020 14:40
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote:  I've probably hit some magic number that throws the software. :DHi Jim,

Yes, but you should get an error message saying so!  :)

Doing nothing at all isn't acceptable. I'm investigating.

cheers,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 17 May 2020 22:05
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Jim,

Why this particular radius/location should cause a problem not found elsewhere is proving difficult to track down. These things are usually caused by rounding effects -- somewhere in the maths will be a blindingly obvious explanation, but so far I haven't found it. :?

However, the most important thing is that you get an error message about it, rather than nothing at all, so I have added this:



In this case, clicking try again does produce a result, although the V-crossing angles need a slight tweak (F9) to match the curves exactly.

This will niggle me until I find it, but for now I'm going to leave it at this cop-out. Hopefully no-one will ever see it. :)

In the next program update, thanks again for reporting it.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 07:19
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Martin,

Many thanks. It looks as though you've had a job on your hands since you usually respond with fixes in hours rather than days. :D   I shall await the next update and adjusting a close approximation will be fine.

Jim.
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8th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 14:22
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote: Many thanks. It looks as though you've had a job on your hands since you usually respond with fixes in hours rather than days. :DHi Jim,

Well that stirred me into action, so with a strong coffee and a boiled egg inside me I have had another go. :)

I have modified the make diamond-crossing at intersection function to create a much more precise fit to the starting curves. It takes a little longer to run, but not too much.

I still don't know why those curves and angles created a problem, but the above change eliminates it, and creates the expected diamond-crossing first time.

In the next program update, after I have done a lot more testing.

This change will also be useful when fitting a turnout to an existing branch curve. I will look at making that a new function, if I can sort out a user interface for it. At present it's a bit clunky and doesn't always work (peg/align tools > put notch on intersection with control template).

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 15:08
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,
I have modified the make diamond-crossing at intersection function to create a much more precise fit to the starting curves. It takes a little longer to run, but not too much.
Just last night I created a slip starting from the make diamond-crossing at intersection function, with both routes around 3m radius (both the same radius).  When extending one of the resulting half-diamonds I noticed there was a slight discrepancy of about half a rail width after something like 500mm, so hopefully the modification will tighten that up a bit!  Nothing I couldn't tweak, but it'll be interesting to try it again when the next release comes out.

Cheers,
Paul


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10th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 20:33
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin
I thought I'd have a go at recreating the slight misalignment, just to see if it was me doing something silly or if it's what might be fixed by the modification.  I could recreate it!  I'll attach the box file in a second, but in the screenshot the red template is the remnant of one of the original curves to act as a reference.  I created a diamond at the intersection of two identical curves, then followed the video to create an outside slip.  Extending the approach road of one of the turnouts, as well as the length, shows a slight misalignment at each end, compared to the reference.

I hope this isn't something new for you to fix!

Cheers,
Paul


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11th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 20:34
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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The box file:-
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message ref: 29776
Attachment: OS slip misalignment.box (Downloaded 4 times)
 
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12th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 21:21
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Paul Boyd wrote:I hope this isn't something new for you to fix!Hi Paul,

Thanks for the feedback and BOX file.

You probably noticed that when Templot creates a diamond-crossing at an intersection, it leaves the diagonal-road exits on the minimum TMINP positions. There's a reason for that -- it's to minimize the effect of the error you found. What you are intended to do is use a copy of the original underlying curve for the connecting track and shorten it to that TMINP exit. Rather than extending the exit from the half-diamond.

Of course I have rather thrown a spanner in that with the new OS peg positions. Especially if you then go and extend the switch with some approach track. :)

The new code which I have been working on today will definitely improve the match to the original curve. Whether it will eliminate the mismatch entirely it's too early to say, I need to do a lot of testing to be sure I haven't broken anything. It's looking good so far, my intention is that it's good enough if the extend/shorten to meet functions work ok on TMINP, and preferably also on TVJP (CTRL-6).

There is also the thorny question of what radius make branch track should be, and does it differ for a regular half-diamond from an irregular one? It does for a regular or curviform turnout -- very markedly.

The tools > make diamond-crossing function works differently, with a slightly different result on curved track -- both K-crossings are exactly the same angle. In the intersection version they differ a fraction using true arcs through both roads. 

There is always more than meets the eye on everything. :)

Thanks again,

Martin.

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13th message | this message only posted: 18 May 2020 21:44
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Ah, that makes sense! I've tried again by using the original curve (in red) to meet up with TMINP, and of course that lines up perfectly.  The turnout discrepancy is only a tiny smidge out now without the approach track magnifying the error miles away.

I'll look forward to see what happens at the next release!

Cheers,
Paul



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14th message | this message only posted: 22 May 2020 10:37
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Paul,
Two curved switched diamond crossings and one fixed diamond crossing, all made using the current version of Templot. There was no need for me to make any adjustments to get everything to align. I found working with copies of the original plain track lengths helped immensely.

Ian 


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15th message | this message only posted: 22 May 2020 11:34
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Ian,

That's impressive -- you obviously like building diamond-crossings. :)

I have made a few changes in the next update, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3675&forum_id=4&jump_to=29796#p29796

The background template is now split and its alignments preserved. A 60ft length of exit track is added to the half-diamonds. A fresh control template is thrown out to one side (as for the make simple link function).







The background template can include pointwork, providing it's clear of the diamond.

In 226c shortly.

cheers,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 22 May 2020 12:20
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from:
Ian Allen
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,
Thanks. I certainly prefer diamonds to outside slips !
The next update you have just eluded too will be very helpful going forward. In the meantime, I've just had a re-working of the previous plan. This time though, two ends required a very minor crossing vee adjustment: 7.19 to 7.17 for example. 

Ian

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