Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3810Track planning over a map - Oxenholme
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posted: 7 Nov 2020 21:00

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,
Having slowly worked my way to getting maps downloaded from web and cropped together (a real boon in my book!). I've made a start on overlaying a design making good use of the various video clips you put together showing how things can be done, It's certainly helped me avoid going the long way round and making educated guesses through the process! But, I've run into a small problem that I think might be resolved by clip D (which has yet to appear!).

In a similar situation to the end of clip C, I have a four track crossover where the first double junction is completed with a length of plain line leading to where the turnout of other double junction will be. Not having risked "having a dabble" at the menu's, is there a method to move that length of plain line across the third line and create a turnout? I know pictures would speak a thousand words but hopefully question is logical.

I'm hoping there is method in the madness as it will certainly help other areas where it would avoid endless roaming of turnouts.

Also as a side issue, is there a function to produce an outside slip [straight main line facing and trailing turnouts with one diamond obtuse crossing in main line four foot]?

Humble apologies if first question is forcing you to rush into clip D!

Cheers,

Paul

edit: video clips referred to are at:

 http://templot.com/companion/live_screen_archive.php


posted: 7 Nov 2020 22:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

Your second question first -- there isn't a specific function for outside sips, but provided the diamond-crossing is regular (all crossing angles equal), there are 2 special peg positions for the purpose which make it fairly straightforward to establish the alignments for an outside slip road. There is a video about using them to create an outside slip at:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=3o4-PiKKPVaAXZsePJOwSA2

It then needs some partial templates and timber shoving to finish the design.

However what you describe "straight main line facing and trailing turnouts with one diamond obtuse crossing in main line four foot" sounds more like an offset half-scissors than an outside slip. The difference from a slip is that the switch deflections would be in the diamond roads.

Sorry, I don't quite follow your first question, but I'm sure there is a solution to your problem. (The next turnout after clip C from the live session is created in exactly the same way as the previous turnout above it.)

If you post a screenshot or attach your .box file it will be easier to answer your question.

cheers,

Martin.
Last edited on 7 Nov 2020 22:53 by Martin Wynne
posted: 8 Nov 2020 17:53

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Many thanks for the welcome Martin.

I was going to send box file but have discovered a small problem - it's disappeared! Having been sure I'd saved it went to reload and it's not there! Oh well, these things are sent to try us. So, back to background map and a re-draw. Well, almost!

Started Templot afresh and loaded the maps already saved as background/shape files. Selected F4 to move opening template up to top of map and it won't move (nothing happens at all!). Am I doing something wrong or is a background shape tied solely to a single box file? Assuming the worst, I'm back into loading map from web.

Happy days!

Paul

posted: 8 Nov 2020 17:56

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Belay the weird F4 behaviour! Tried again and loaded directly from file manager. F4 seems to work now. I won't ask what I did wrong, just be grateful a little work has been avoided.

Back to the redraw now!

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 8 Nov 2020 18:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Kirkwood wrote: 
Having been sure I'd saved it went to reload and it's not there!
Hi Paul,

Whether you saved it or not, it will be in the files > recent files list in one of these two menu items from the previous 2 sessions:

2_081305_030000000.png2_081305_030000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 8 Nov 2020 18:44

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

Having thrown toys out of pram and deleted a lot of 'other' files, tried the suggested and there's still nothing there. I'll just remember that practice makes a bit better!

Another possibly odd question (just to prove I don't read instructions often!). When opening a track design file (i.e. clicking on restore previous work at start), is there a way to tie the background map to open at the same time, or do you have to open the track plan and then load map after?

One day this might all make sense :-)

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 8 Nov 2020 19:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Kirkwood wrote:
Having thrown toys out of pram and deleted a lot of 'other' files, tried the suggested and there's still nothing there. I'll just remember that practice makes a bit better!
Hi Paul,

It's quite difficult to lose files in Templot. Unless of course you deliberately delete them!

There's no reason to do that -- wait until you have a final design which you do want, and it is safely saved, and only then go back and tidy up all the scrap files which you created along the way.

Another possibly odd question (just to prove I don't read instructions often!). When opening a track design file (i.e. clicking on restore previous work at start), is there a way to tie the background map to open at the same time, or do you have to open the track plan and then load map after?

The main and original purpose of the background shapes function is to provide baseboard outlines, or the railway room outline, or the garden fence outline for a garden railway. The shapes are contained in a separate BGS3 file, so that you can reload them as often as needed and create a new track plan design over them. One of the background shape types is a picture shape, which can contain an image such as a map.

Which means yes, you need to open the BGS3 file separately each time.

However, if you rename it or save it as  start.bgs3  it will load automatically each time you start Templot.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 8 Nov 2020 19:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Kirkwood wrote:
tried the suggested and there's still nothing there.
Hi Paul,

I'm puzzled. It's not possible for there to be nothing in these locations if you have started Templot more than once since first installing it:

2_081305_030000000.png2_081305_030000000.png

UNLESS you have done what the installer tells you not to do, and installed Templot in the dreaded

C:\Program Files\

folders?

In which case all bets are off and Templot will never work properly.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Nov 2020 15:26

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

Many thanks, whilst this design is in process I'll try the rename file option.

Templot was installed per the instructions (it's what the instructions said!). OK, I admit it, whilst the toys were landing on the floor I was busy deleting files. So in all probability managed to delete the one I really shouldn't have!

Surprisingly, the redraw is going quite well and I think I may have cracked one of the questions I had. However, I may well be back all too soon.

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 9 Nov 2020 22:28

from:

roythebus
 
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent - United Kingdom

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Martin, thanks for the tip on renaming the start.bgs file. :)

posted: 11 Nov 2020 21:33

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,
Having read your reply about what I thought was an outside slip, would agree it's more likely a half scissor (layout location is Oxenholme) sorry for confusion!

Whilst it's probably not the right solution, I've been dabbling using the outside slip video. Managed to draw something but with the diamond straight/straight I can't get the turnouts to bend toward straight. So, possibly need to consider a half scissor. But, I'm not proficient enough with Templot to think how to "delete" unwanted turnouts in favour of plain line.

Other problem encountered was that having saved (or thought I had!?) the templates for the outside slip if I created a small group of the templates to move into position to see exactly how close to right length between switch toes I am, when I try to move I am only moving an unwanted template that I can't seem to delete no matter how hard I try. Clearly I'm not doing something right, but can't see what! All suggestions welcomed.

I think I can only attach a single file so have attached hopefully the correct box file! I'll send shape [map] file on second post [note - renamed start on your suggestion, which works very well!].

Cheers,

Paul


Attachment: attach_3175_3810_Oxenholme2a.box     32

posted: 11 Nov 2020 21:34

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,
Attached is the Shape file for the map I'm using.

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 11 Nov 2020 21:46

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Paul Kirkwood wrote:
Martin,
Attached is the Shape file for the map I'm using.

Cheers,

Paul
Martin,
I think file is shape file is too big (41,131kb) so have opted to send by pm (I'll let you chop it as you see fit!).

Paul

posted: 11 Nov 2020 23:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

Thanks for the files. Well done in combining several screenshots. :thumb:

In the next program update (if I ever get it finished) you will be able to load all that from the NLS as a tiled map, and Templot will do all the combining and aligning for you.

You have done well with the double crossover at the junction, I recognise the similarity with the live session clips. :thumb:

I agree that it is almost certainly an offset half-scissors rather than an outside slip. Do you have any prototype photos of this location?

Start by overlaying two turnouts, facing and trailing, and roam them onto the toe marks on the map. After a quick dabble the south one is looking to be about B-7 and the north one about C-10. Both look to be regular V-crossings with extended entry straights to get all the V-crossings clear of one another:

2_111814_290000000.png2_111814_290000000.png

To create the K-crossings, peg dummy plain track templates onto the switch heel or entry straight, curve them to match the turnout roads, and then make a diamond crossing at their intersection.
 
I will have a go at that and maybe make a bit of video.

when I try to move I am only moving an unwanted template that I can't seem to delete no matter how hard I try.
Group the templates, then use SHIFT+CTRL+F7 shift group mouse action (or just press the BACKSLASH key).

Switch your printer on and click help > print F key chart menu item.

See also this very old page:

 http://templot.com/martweb/gs_geometry.htm#shift_group_notch

which is at the top of the list for a re-write. But mostly it is all still the same.

p.s. You are doing what everyone does and which I keep telling folks not to do. Trying to design your finished track plan without first learning how Templot works. Especially for such a complex junction station plan aligned to scale over a map. I will just post this screenshot from the download page,

2_111846_030000000.png2_111846_030000000.png 

and then have a nice boiled egg. :)

Martin.

posted: 12 Nov 2020 12:30

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

I'll have a better read of your advice but many thanks for the help! Yes, I know I'm trying to run before walking but I'll learn about Templot as I stumble along!

Probably best photo I can see of the scissor is here;
http://www.railwaystationphotographs.co.uk/oxenholme-railway-station-photo-milnthorpe--grayrigg-carnforth-to-low-gill-4-19291-p.asp
If you click on picture it opens a slightly larger image. Obviously will be copyright protected so many thanks or humble apologies for usual over excitedness!

Off for a boiled egg!

Paul

posted: 12 Nov 2020 13:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks Paul.

Here's a link to the full image (1600 x 1002):

 http://www.railwaystationphotographs.co.uk/ekmps/shops/071c84/images/oxenholme-railway-station-photo.-milnthorpe-grayrigg.-carnforth-to-low-gill-4-19291-p.jpg

That's a great pic of an offset half-scissors, but clearly a later date than the map with the near switch toe much further forward. As a result the V-crossings are in much better separated positions and easier to build.

I will have a stab at it later and see how it looks. All the switches in the picture look to be loose-heel types, so I will assume those. Are you modelling the date in the picture, or the date of the map?

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Nov 2020 14:32

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

All help gratefully received!

Intention (if it gets beyond planning and HRH approval) is circa 1958-1960. I'm gathering a motley collection of photographs and am making allowance for various parts of layout that had been removed/remodelled by then [i.e. had I gone for mid 1960's the upside sidings north of station had been removed].

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 12 Nov 2020 17:17

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
You may find this http://oxenholme.oneplacestudy.org/ useful if you haven't already found it.
Regards
Trevor:)

posted: 12 Nov 2020 19:49

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Thanks Trevor, I came across the site after trawling through a Google search which led to it via other places! Is filed for future reference.

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 12 Nov 2020 20:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

You probably know that the NLS have a later 1912 map than the 1897 version which you used. For example by 1912 the cattle pens have been moved and the siding extended:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/125824620#zoom=8&lat=2226&lon=2094&layers=BT

Unfortunately the half-scissors is shown much the same.

In your linked photo, the track to the left of the half-scissors has been moved much closer to it, and the tandem turnout moved further back.

Clearly the area was remodelled after the date of the maps. Do you have a map which matches the photo?

There is a later 1968 25" map, but by then the half-scissors has been removed.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 13 Nov 2020 12:55

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

I clearly missed a beat when looking at the NLS listing for maps. Sadly I don't have a later map to cover the period intended and feel some additional Templot practice coming on to use the later map and do a redraw, especially as there are some simplifications! You did after all say that one should be practiced in the Templot art :D

Looking at the photograph (which didn't have a date I could see) bowler hat brigade lead me to think it was taken before the second map as double slip in foreground was replaced by plain turnout in later map. I been comparing both maps and photograph for ages trying to work out the layout and don't think the track has been moved closer to the scissors, I think the cartographer has been confused by the three way point followed by turnout as there switch toes where you wouldn't expect to see them and geometry sort of makes sense (but then, I wear glasses!). My gut feeling would be to use photograph as a guide to the alignment and hand of switches.

Oh the joy!

Paul
Last edited on 13 Nov 2020 12:55 by Paul Kirkwood
posted: 14 Nov 2020 16:23

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

Now I remember! When I first tried the background map functions I used the NLS OS 25" screenshot map which gave the 1897 version. If I try to load the later map I know I can't use that function and have tried the other screenshot URL (and even real location option). From a myriad of attempts I actually got a map to scale correctly but when I tried to get the next section, I clearly did something wrong and now no matter how many times I try I can't seem to get the map to scale correctly at 2mmfs.

What seems to complicate matters more is that the zoom for NLS OS map is around 18/19 but for the screenshot is only around 7/8 before it pixilates!

URL I've been using is;
http://maps.nls.uk/view/125824620#zoom=8&lat=4134&lon=3127&layers=BT

I'd like to use the later map but feel somewhat defeated thus far! Suggestions on a boiled egg please!

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 14 Nov 2020 17:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

The "Find by place" maps are not georeferenced and are just the original scans from the OS sheets.

Templot should be able to load them, but the procedure is different. Do this:

2_141153_020000000.png2_141153_020000000.png

Don't forget 2. immediately before making the capture, and after any zooming or adjusting. It doesn't matter if you click it more than once.

I used this URL:

 http://maps.nls.uk/view/125824620#zoom=7&lat=1441&lon=2275&layers=BT

and got a good result correctly scaled.

Paste it into the "other screenshot map URL" box.

N.B. The original maps use the old OS County Series projections, not even the later OS 1936 Grid, and they are not georeferenced to modern web maps and zoom levels.

This means that this screenshot won't align or scale exactly over the georeferenced 1897 version. It is likely to be rotated at a slight angle from it, and some lines which are dead straight in one might be fractionally curved in the other (platform edges for example), and vice versa.

Also, the scaling might not be exact, and you may want to adjust it very fractionally. The NLS scanned the old paper sheets, which after a century of storage may have shrunk/distorted a bit and may not have been printed as accurately as modern maps in the first place. When I was developing the code I spent a long time looking at these original scans from different parts of the country and comparing the dots-per-mile values. The end result is the best approximation I could make, but it won't be spot-on for all sheets.

Ask again if you can't get it to work.

p.s. no boiled egg today (yet), but I can smell the bread nearly done, just in time for tea. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 15 Nov 2020 15:46

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

So many thanks for the aid, this was one option I must have tried but couldn't replicate!

Mind, having spent some time re-drawing I've discovered the limitations of available memory when trying to rotate! Back to drawing screen for a second try!

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 18 Nov 2020 09:45

from:

Paul Kirkwood
 
 

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Martin,

Still very much work in progress fitting in around decorating and bowing to every whim of HRH, but I took note of your comment on the possible state of maps copied from paper.
Solution was to make a background image of the map scale and then use a 120 foot length (equiv 2 x 60 foot rails) of plain line to check against the scale. On map used there was no discernible difference so no scaling factor required.

Cheers,

Paul



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