Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 16:50 from: phileakins
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Hi Folks I've been playing around with the layout design and though that a scissors crossover would be useful. As nothing in the design is actually straight - it had to be curved! I have found a photo of a prototype so I haven't completely made it all up.  Thanks to Paul's outside slip .box file (thanks Paul) I worked out how partial templates worked, and here it is for your comments and, more importantly, criticisms. My main difficulty now is that I can't see how to provide the proper check rails for the lower left 'V' crossing on the opposite rail, the V of the left side of the diamond crossing is too close. Cheers. Phil |
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| Attachment: attach_286_465_scissors_crossover_08_06_20_1128_19.box 743 | ||||
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 18:28 from: Jim Guthrie
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phileakins wrote: Hi Folks Phil. I think you are almost there. If you get rid of the flares on the check rails in the diamond and extend these check rails to a spliced point - virtually a mirror image of the crossing nose - then you should have adequate checking for the opposite crossing nose. The part of the back of the tyre which contacts the check rail is not a point but a chord of several inches long so the back would be in contact with the extended check rail in the diamond then the wing rail of the crossing while moving in a facing direction and the length of the chord on the back of the wheel should bridge the gap between the check/wing rails. But I must admit that I would try to alter the spacing between the tracks on the left hand end of the scissors which could serve to move the crossing nose farther into the diamond and get it opposite a rail rather than the gap in front of the crossing nose. Sorry, I'm at work at the moment and don't have the time to attempt to modify your file. I've got to earn a living and I could see me spending hours on shoving things around. Jim. |
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 19:57 from: phileakins
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Thanks Jim - I've spent the best part of two days on it, I'm going to work tonight for a rest.  I've done what you suggested and that certainly helps. On way of moving the diamond V's out is to move the 'main lines' closer together as the lines off to the right (being sidings) are wider than the minimum 6 feet. This would also help to remove the odd reverse curve in the top right point, which I only saw by squinting along a print-out after I'd posted it! It's slight, but it's there. One problem is that this whole assembly must fit into a 4 foot length, which it only just does. Moving the main lines might have the effect of shortening it slightly I think, which is to the good. The down side is that I just spent the best part of two days ............ Still, it all adds to the learning curve, which ain't getting any flatter. I'm posting the layout .box file so that you can see where it all fits. Thanks. Phil |
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| Attachment: attach_287_465_st_margarets_08_06_20_1320_30.box 506 | ||||
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 21:56 from: Jim Guthrie
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phileakins wrote:
Phil, I noticed the reverse curve and I risked hours away from work and had a quick go of getting rid of it which I've attached. It's not tarted up yet - just two turnouts laying across the scissors diamond needing a lot of tidying up to get all the checks and wings in. Jim. |
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| Attachment: attach_288_465_st_marg_BITS_08_06_20_1651_18.box 489 | ||||
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 22:14 from: Jim Guthrie
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Jim Guthrie wrote: phileakins wrote: I had another look and saw that things were a bit messier than I thought - so here's another go - again needing a lot of tarting and finishing but I think the four turnouts are about correct.Jim. |
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| Attachment: attach_289_465_st_marg_BITS_08_06_20_1711_18.box 487 | ||||
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posted: 20 Jun 2008 23:45 from: Brian Lewis
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Hi Jim, Out of curiosity I had a look at your plan, only to find it was almost obliterated by each bit of track being named. Not knowing how to remove these - not know even, why they are there in the first place, makes me wonder if one of the drop downs at the top could be named, 'View'. The presumably it would be a small matter to remove these distractions, also odd triangles that appear, for all time? Just wondering..... Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Jun 2008 00:02 from: Martin Wynne
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Brian Lewis wrote: Out of curiosity I had a look at your plan, only to find it was almost obliterated by each bit of track being named. Not knowing how to remove these - not know even, why they are there in the first place, makes me wonder if one of the drop downs at the top could be named, 'View'. The presumably it would be a small matter to remove these distractions, also odd triangles that appear, for all time? Hi Brian, Assuming you have upgraded to version 082d, press the END key to toggle the labels on and off. The pad menu is the equivalent of "view". See: end_key.png  In the earlier 074b, there are some tickboxes for template name and number on the control > background list menu item. One of the main reasons for having the name labels showing, is so that you have something to SHIFT-click on, when overlaid partial templates are stacked one above another. In the latest versions there are several functions for arranging and moving the labels, if they are obstructing your view. See: background template name labels at: http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_2.htm regards, Martin. |
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posted: 21 Jun 2008 01:14 from: Jim Guthrie
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Brian Lewis wrote: Hi Jim, Brian, They were actually Phil's markings and labels carried over during my messing around but I see Martin has given the solution to getting shot of the labels. I must admit that I had forgotten about the END key The triangles will be the result of Phil working with transition curves.PS. Glad to hear that your visit to hospital has been successful. Regards to Mrs. L Jim. |
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posted: 21 Jun 2008 02:30 from: Brian Lewis
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Many thanks for the prompt reply Martin. Where I became confused was that I left clicked on each name and was given options such as 'bat', 'rename', but not 'remove'. I do wonder whether we really need names - hopefully we know that a particular track is the down loop or goods headshunt, etc. and perhaps a number is all that is really required. Along the top edge of the screen there is plenty of room for more drop downs. Do you think it would make life simpler if all controls relating to a specific item, such as 'names' had it own drop down? This does, to me at least, make quite complicated programmes - Access, Excel, Photoshop, etc. easier to operate. I accept I will never learn any programme fully, but if the controls are grouped intuitively, then I can at least blunder my way through. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 21 Jun 2008 18:25 from: phileakins
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Hi JimI had another look and saw that things were a bit messier than I thought Many thanks for taking the time out to do that, I'll post the finished crossover when it's done and dusted. Brian - It took me a while to get the naming conventions sorted out, but using the 'End' key is the answer whilst working (as is the 'Home' key to hide the current template). The names are essential when working with the Box in list mode. The transition curve markings (together with lots of other things) can be hidden by creating a group (Ctrl + a for all) and using the Generator Settings drop down menu. Then the Rebuild Group option followed by Ctrl + y to remove the grouping. Phil |
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posted: 22 Jun 2008 16:45 from: Alan Turner
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I've had a go at the crossing and I think that this gets rid of the reverse curve and gives a better flow. It just fits your 4 foot requirement but only just! Alan |
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| Attachment: attach_290_465_st_margarets_-_ajt.box 504 | ||||
| Last edited on 22 Jun 2008 16:45 by Alan Turner |
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posted: 23 Jun 2008 01:05 from: phileakins
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Alan Turner wrote: I've had a go at the crossing and I think that this gets rid of the reverse curve and gives a better flow. It just fits your 4 foot requirement but only just! Thanks for doing that Alan - I've a few days off work this week (I think I shall need them ) and will finish both yours and Jim's designs and post them here. The check rails will be a challenge though looking at photos of the prototype.Phil PS [Thinks] Now, what other weird and wonderful configurations can I bend track into? I've got one or two photos and the outside double slip idea looks attractive .......... [/Thinks] |
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posted: 5 Dec 2008 09:52 from: John Preston
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Hello to all After having looked at the box file for the straight scissor crossover under the “complicated formation” I took the challenge to create a curved scissor crossover. In succeeding (I hope), after three or four different attempts, to make a satisfactory track plan, I made a text and pictorial (print screen) tutorial to follow. I learned much about Templot in the process. If anyone is interested in the tutorial I will gladly send it by email. I do not attach it to this posting as the file is rather large – about 1.3 mb and I do not think it appropriate to use Templot club space for this purpose. Alternately, I can provide Martin with the word document which could be put it on the Templot website with any changes he deems necessary. |
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| Attachment: attach_435_465_curved_scissors_crossover.box 529 | ||||
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posted: 5 Dec 2008 12:55 from: Martin Wynne
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John Preston wrote:I made a text and pictorial (print screen) tutorial to follow. I learned much about Templot in the process. If anyone is interested in the tutorial I will gladly send it by email. I do not attach it to this posting as the file is rather large – about 1.3 mb and I do not think it appropriate to use Templot club space for this purpose.Hi John, I'm not sure why you say that -- sharing things is what this forum is here for! Do please post again and feel free to attach your file. The current size limit is 5mb and if your file type is not in the list of accepted attachments I will gladly add it.If it's a Word document, there is a free viewer available for those who do not have Word -- download from Microsoft: free Word viewer That's a very impressive track formation, and I know others would be interested to read how you created it. One point I would make is that I think it more likely that long through timbers would be used under the centre section -- unless you have photographic evidence to the contrary for a specific prototype location? The timber shoving would need to be done very carefully to ensure all special crossing chairs are supported in their correct positions.Here's a screenshot for non-Templot readers who can't use your download .box file: johns_curved_scissors.png  regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Dec 2008 19:25 from: John Preston
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Martin Thanks for those words of encouragement. Please, i have a question and some comments too. Firstly, how do you put a picture in the text on the forum? I have tried a number of things but not yet been able to do it. I appreciate your comments regarding the sleepers. The box file did not have sleepers shoved if my memory serves me, as I have too many of what I call "Senior moments". I am 66. secondly, I have little information on just how the sleepers should be positioned so the tutorial stops at that point and lets the individual do his/her own thing. I have lived in Canada since i was four years old, Getting involved in British railroading like this is a fairly recent thing for me and most of what I know is what I call "Book learning". Here is the tutorial. I would appreciate any comments, particularly those that would make it better, as I plan on creating more in the future. Next one may be an outside slip (double perhaps). I may also create tutorials for some of martin's videos, as there have been some comments to the effect that a written tutorial would be helpful. Martin I am not trying to usurp your territory. I am hoping this might free up some of your time to devote to further development of Templot. Regards to all |
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| Attachment: attach_436_465_Regular_Curved_Scissor_Xover.doc 682 | ||||
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posted: 5 Dec 2008 20:52 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi John, Many thanks for uploading your tutorial file. I'm sure Templot users will find it very helpful.  I haven't yet studied it in detail, but two points to make initially -- Why did you set 8ft way as the track centres (52.67mm)? It's not wrong, but you need to have a reason. I think the majority of scissors crossovers would be at the standard 6ft way spacing. That makes the construction clearances rather tight, but on the other hand widening the spacing affects the surrounding track plan. You need a wider spacing of course on sharply curved tracks for vehicle clearance, but this one is only down to 10 chains radius and the standard spacing would be sufficient (that's over 8ft radius in P4). Your method of creating the initial outline produces a non-symmetrical scissors. Again it's not wrong, but I think the majority of scissors crossovers would be symmetrical unless there is an obvious need otherwise. To be symmetrical the CTRL-5 TXP position on all 4 turnouts needs to be coincident at the centre of the diamond. I've written before about creating a scissors crossover, most recently in this topic: Bristol Temple Meads . That's not a very obvious heading for this subject , so here are those notes again:__________________ The basic procedure to create an outline scissors crossover is: 1. start with a turnout of the required V-crossing angle, and TS track spacing centres. 2. do > turnout road > crossover 3. put the peg on TXP (CTRL-5) 4. do > snap to peg 5. tools > make mirror on peg 6. tools > make simple crossover 7. do > snap to peg 8. tools > make mirror on peg 9. store & background That works starting with a straight or curved turnout, and gets you all the essential rail alignments. After which you can create all the partial templates needed for the final design. Edit for Templot2: It's now quite easy to create the centre diamond-crossing. tools > make branch track on both of the outer turnouts, and then make diamond-crossing at their intersection. If you start with a standard turnout the above procedure will most likely give you a type 1 scissors, with the V-crossings for the diamond in the turnout curves. However, it is generally easier to construct a type 2 scissors, with the V-crossings for the diamond in extended crossing entry-straights on the turnouts. To do that, start by extending the entry-straight on the first turnout. You can do that by mouse action in version 091c, which makes it much easier to see what you are doing and keep an eye on the radius. There is a bit of Jing video showing that mouse action in use at: http://screencast.com/t/q8zBFC9z and some notes about it at: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=398910#p398910 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Dec 2008 21:06 from: Brian Lewis
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Well I do not know what Martin thinks about the concept John, but I think this what has been needed for years. The printed word is so much better than videos, help files, etc. Not a criticism, but a thought. If I was doing this I think I would have a separate link for every action, i.e. keep them spaced out from the explanatory text. You could reduce the margins, so that it would not use up more paper. When I get a minute, I am going to run through it. Thanks again. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 6 Dec 2008 00:46 from: John Preston
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Thanks for that bit of extra information / advice. Let us consider this tutorial for un-symetrical scissors crossover. I will go ahead and now make a tutorial for a symetrical scissors crossover on an 8ft way. It will take me a few days. Regards John P |
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posted: 6 Dec 2008 01:23 from: Brian Lewis
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I wrote: Not a criticism, but a thought. If I was doing this I think I would have a separate link for every action, i.e. keep them spaced out from the explanatory text. Apologies John. In my comment I made a typo. I mentioned a 'separate link'. This should have read, 'separate line'. Regards Brian Lewis |
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posted: 6 Dec 2008 02:01 from: John Preston
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Thanks Brian for the suggestion. I will incorporate it into my next tutorial which will be for a symmetrical scissors crossover, as per Martin's comments above. I am assuming (silly me) that Templot users, if they are reading this, do not need an explanation for every set of menu item commands. e.g. Save to the background as typing only main > store & background saves considerably on the often repeated instructions. It would perhaps be helpful to put a little more explanation in about the need to align the control template over the particular background template. I shall add the commentary into the next tutorial. Regards to all. John P |
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posted: 6 Dec 2008 02:24 from: Martin Wynne
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John Preston wrote: how do you put a picture in the text on the forum?Hi John, If you upload an image file as an attachment, it will be visible on the forum. But not in the message Preview, which is a bit confusing. It becomes visible only when you actually send the message. If you want to show more than one picture, simply reply to your first message with another one. If you want to include images within your text instead of below it, you can do that using img and /img tags, but you must first host the image file somewhere else -- on your own web site perhaps, or by uploading it to one of the many picture gallery sites such as PhotoBucket or ImageShack. Enter the tags in square brackets like this, enclosing the picture URL between them:
regards, Martin. |
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posted: 11 Dec 2008 08:30 from: John Preston
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Hello to all I have taken the challenge and changed the alignments slightly in order to insert most check rails and get rid of the reverse curve and slight mis-alignments. Three missing check rails are on the turnout crossing rails adjacent to the diamond V-crossings. The short check rail is on the main road crossing rail of the upper left (my designation) turnout. I hope this is of some interst to you at this late date. Regards John P |
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| Attachment: attach_437_465_st_margarets_jp.box 409 | ||||
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 03:27 from: John Preston
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Martin Wynne wrote: Note: This is partial text only, full text is elsewhere in this topic Hi John, Subsequent to Martin’s initial, and very helpful, comments regarding my first attempt to create a “here’s how I did it” (tutorial) on ‘templotting’ a scissors crossover, I have learned a lot about partial templates and track construction. The revised sequences show how simply and elegantly the software can be used to create such a track formation. This crossover consists of only 14 partial templates and is much easier to construct. It works for both curved and straight crossovers. I attach the .box file and will attach the "how to" next submission. Regard John |
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| Attachment: attach_475_465_Curved_scissors_xover.box 472 | ||||
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 03:33 from: John Preston
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And here is the "how to"  |
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 03:41 from: John Preston
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John Preston wrote: And here is the "how to" Second try at sending the "how to" file |
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 04:50 from: Martin Wynne
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John Preston wrote:Second try at sending the "how to" fileHi John, What format is the file, an how large is it? Try zipping it before attaching it. Scissors looks good. But it would be better to change the turnouts to square-on timbering with timber ends-in-line. Turn off the timbering on the partial templates so that there is only one copy of each timber. This makes it much easier to do any shoving needed. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 14:47 from: John Preston
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John Preston wrote:
Third attempt with a zip file 1,751 kb in size |
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| Attachment: attach_476_465_Curved_Scissor_Xover.zip 874 | ||||
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posted: 29 Jan 2009 17:20 from: Martin Wynne
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John Preston wrote:Second try at sending the "how to" fileHi John, I have now heard from Jim that the server upload limit is currently set to only 2MB. He will be changing it later today, which will solve the problems. Sorry you had trouble. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Feb 2009 21:35 from: Paul Boyd
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A variation on a theme is attached Both lines through the diamond are curved in opposite directions, and the slip road is also on a curve. I have no idea what this formation would be called! Suggestions on a postcard please... Thanks go to Alan McMillan for making me do this irregular diamond properly Mr L - hit the 'End' key to lose all the name labels - I never bother with them myself |
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| Attachment: attach_486_465_Throat.box 490 | ||||
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posted: 9 Feb 2009 08:10 from: Raymond
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That is very impressive and must have taken a while to get right. But, ought there not to be a 14" timber under the centre of the diamond? Regards Raymond |
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posted: 9 Feb 2009 10:06 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi RaymondBut, ought there not to be a 14" timber under the centre of the diamond?Ah - yes, you're right. Thank you!! |
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posted: 9 Feb 2009 10:35 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote: I have no idea what this formation would be called! Suggestions on a postcard please...Hi Paul, At first sight it's an outside slip. But the slip road is the running line with switch deflections over the diamond. So I've no idea what you call that! I noticed the Barry slip there too, so this is obviously a Boyd slip. Excellent work, whatever you call it. Perhaps the check rail on template 22 could be extended to meet the diamond point rail, or else it needs a shorter flare length. At present the flare is opposite the knuckle on the V-crossing, so it's not fully checked. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 9 Feb 2009 20:34 from: Paul Boyd
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Just had a look at the One And Only Track Reference Book, and there shouldn't be a timber in the centre of the diamond in this case. On the GWR at least, for fixed elbows up to 1 in 5¼ this timber was omitted. Because this diamond is around 1 in 3½, it doesn't even need to have the distance block in place.I noticed the Barry slip there tooAh yes, the Barry slip. It serves the purpose nicely, but it is probably as clichéd now on model railways as overly complicated trackwork I do have a set of wiped templates in the box file to replace the Barry slip with a direct drop-in replacement double slip, so who knows what might actually get built, if anything?Perhaps the check rail on template 22 could be extended to meet the diamond point rail, or else it needs a shorter flare length. At present the flare is opposite the knuckle on the V-crossing, so it's not fully checked.Thanks for that - well spotted! I've gone for extending it to meet the diamond point rail. That gives a nicely asymmetric look! |
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posted: 17 Jun 2009 11:12 from: Martin Wynne
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John Preston wrote: Third attempt with a zip file 1,751 kb in sizeHi John, I've converted your excellent tutorial to PDF format and attached it again to this topic: topic 872 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 8 Jun 2012 16:08 from: ian espiner
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Martin This link http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=398910#p398910 is no longer found. Any chance of a new link please, I need all the help I can get? Regards Ian |
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posted: 8 Jun 2012 16:22 from: John Preston
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Hi Ian Try the Link in the message from Martin in the posting just above the one you sent. topic 872 This does work, as I have just tried it. Regards John P |
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posted: 8 Jun 2012 17:37 from: Martin Wynne
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ian espiner wrote: Martin This linkHi Ian, The Old RMweb archive is offline at present until the server problems have been fixed. Sorry I have no idea how long that will take, you could try asking Andy Y on RMweb. Sorry, I can't remember what I wrote there, but I imagine it's a repeat of other stuff in this topic. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 13 Sep 2012 21:32 from: Len Cattley
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Does anybody have a updated version of how to do this as I can't seem to do it.  regards Len cattley |
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posted: 13 Sep 2012 22:38 from: Alan Turner
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The link to RMweb works now. Alan |
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