Bristol Temple Meads Old Station - Templot talk - Forums

Hello,

I've finally finished the baseboard for the layout!

I've been playing with Templot a lot recently and I'm feeling a lot more confident. Whilst I agree it's good to learn from mistakes I was hoping someone could suggest a good route to build up my track plan.

Where should I start, the simple crossover and work from there?

Thank you in anticipation.

Alex

12 Sep 2008 13:16

from:

Andrew Campbell

You might find "Brunel's Bristol Temple Meads" by John Binding (OPC/Ian Allen - ISBN 0-86093-563-9) interesting and possibly useful. It's still in print.

Best wishes for the project.

Andrew

16 Sep 2008 18:48

from:

Martin Wynne

Stumpytrain wrote: I've been playing with Templot a lot recently and I'm feeling a lot more confident. Whilst I agree it's good to learn from mistakes I was hoping someone could suggest a good route to build up my track plan.

Where should I start, the simple crossover and work from there?Hi Alex,

There are no fixed rules.

Beginners in Templot tend to go for the brick-by-brick approach, possibly using the F7 snapping function to "clip" individual templates together, in a similar manner to other track-planning programs. This method is simple and quick, but it can produce a disjointed "train-set" look if you are not careful.

More experienced users prefer to lay out the broad sweep of the running lines first, and then insert the turnout templates in them (or align the templates over them). This is the classic way to use Templot and the most likely to produce a prototypical sweeping feel to pointwork.

Or you can use whatever mixture of methods suits your own way of thinking and working. There are always several different ways to arrive at a similar result.

This video shows some of the basic track planning functions in Templot:

starter video

regards,

Martin.

16 Sep 2008 21:51

from:

Martin Wynne

Hi Alex,

I have just noticed that you have posted some pictures and plans on the Yahoo group. I'm copying them here on Templot Club for those members who are not regular visitors to the Yahoo group site.

regards,

Martin.

17 Sep 2008 05:47

from:

Stumpytrain

Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

Great work Martin! You've done some excellent work tweaking the photos and plans for presentation on the forum.

My plan so far is to start with platform 14, some how extend into 15 with the correct reverse curve. Then build the crossover (10) as I know what the track centres should be, and create middle road. The sidings and platform 13 can then be built off platform 15 as I know what the track centres for those should be.

After a print out to check that it works within the structures I can then create the scissors crossover that's on a curve, with one end as a 3 way and the 2 trap ends!

Sound like a plan?! :thumb:

Alex

17 Sep 2008 13:09

from:

richard_t

Although totally out of my time period and area, that last photograph is so atmospheric!

But where's platform 14?

17 Sep 2008 13:49

from:

Martin Wynne

Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

richard_t wrote: But where's platform 14?Hi Richard,

Platforms:

Martin.

17 Sep 2008 15:51

from:

richard_t

Ah so no Platform 13 and 13A in those days....

MKC is shortly getting a 2A.

17 Sep 2008 17:57

from:

Jim Guthrie

Martin Wynne wrote: richard_t wrote: But where's platform 14?Hi Richard,

Platforms:

Martin.Martin,

It's only when you note the double use of the two platform faces that you realise the tremendous operating potential of the layout - it could take over from CJF's "Minories"

[Edit] Meant to ask what happened in the track layout just off the plan to the left?

Jim.

Last edited on 17 Sep 2008 17:59 by Jim Guthrie

17 Sep 2008 19:49

from:

rodney_hills

Jim Guthrie wrote: Martin,

It's only when you note the double use of the two platform faces that you realise the tremendous operating potential of the layout - it could take over from CJF's "Minories"

[Edit] Meant to ask what happened in the track layout just off the plan to the left?

Jim.

Yes agreed , it mirrors, on a small scale, the six platform faces (2-7 North and South) and the accompanying three middle roads that figured in the LB&SCR 1906-7 rebuilding of their side of Victoria Station, London and, like 'Minories', would be fascinating to see operated with a high-intensity service as an exhibition tour-de-force.

Regards, Rodney Hills

17 Sep 2008 22:18

from:

John Lewis

It could have been even more interesting prior to May 1892. Was this mixed gauge?

18 Sep 2008 04:03

from:

Stumpytrain

richard_t wrote: Ah so no Platform 13 and 13A in those days....

MKC is shortly getting a 2A.

Hi Richard,

Assuming you're talking about Bristol then there never has been a platform 13A!

Alex

18 Sep 2008 05:11

from:

Stumpytrain

Jim Guthrie wrote: It's only when you note the double use of the two platform faces that you realise the tremendous operating potential of the layout - it could take over from CJF's "Minories"

[Edit] Meant to ask what happened in the track layout just off the plan to the left?

Jim.

Jim,

I think it's a great track plan! As you can see it can be very flexible. The best feature in my opinion in the direct connection from No2 siding to platform 12, a photo of the 9.15 Bristol - Gloucester waiting to leave the siding can be seen here:

Off to the left? Well, Bristol Old Station from the 1930s to 65 worked to Bristol East Signal Box. The lines controlled by Bristol East can be seen under a layer of paint in the top left hand corner of this photo of the signal box diagram:

So from Old Station, via Bristol East you could get to the LMS Gloucester line via Mangotsfield, Lawrence Hill for Severn Tunnel, Severn Beach, Coalpit Heath etc and North Somerset Junction for Bath and the North Somerset branch.

Alex

18 Sep 2008 05:44

from:

Stumpytrain

John Lewis wrote: It could have been even more interesting prior to May 1892. Was this mixed gauge?
John,

As far as I can tell the track layout that remained until closure in 1965 dated from 1878 when the signal box opened. This would have been when the platforms were widened, the number of tracks within the Brunel part reduced to 4 and the Digby Wyatt extension added. With the new curved trainshed intended for Great Western and Bristol & Exeter traffic the Old Station (as it would become called in 1891) was basically relegated to the Midland Railway. So, basically no... it wasn't mixed gauge!

Alex

18 Sep 2008 17:27

from:

Jim Guthrie

Stumpytrain wrote:
the Old Station (as it would become called in 1891) was basically relegated to the Midland Railway.

"promoted" surely, since it was the Midland Railway.

Jim.

19 Sep 2008 00:11

from:

Brian Lewis

Jim Guthrie wrote:"promoted" surely, since it was the Midland Railway.

No Jim. More a fate worth than death.......

Regards

Brian Lewis

19 Sep 2008 01:07

from:

John Lewis

Stumpytrain wrote:John,

As far as I can tell the track layout that remained until closure in 1965 dated from 1878 when the signal box opened. This would have been when the platforms were widened, the number of tracks within the Brunel part reduced to 4 and the Digby Wyatt extension added. With the new curved trainshed intended for Great Western and Bristol & Exeter traffic the Old Station (as it would become called in 1891) was basically relegated to the Midland Railway. So, basically no... it wasn't mixed gauge!Thanks.

John

19 Sep 2008 01:09

from:

John Lewis

Jim Guthrie wrote:"promoted" surely, since it was the Midland Railway.

Err ... No! Definitely "relegated" (or "abandoned to ....")

John

19 Sep 2008 01:48

from:

Jim Guthrie

Scarborough, United Kingdom

Brian Lewis wrote: Jim Guthrie wrote:"promoted" surely, since it was the Midland Railway.

No Jim. More a fate worth than death.......

Regards

Brian Lewis
I can see that the Western supporters have never forgiven the Midland for nicking the Bristol and Gloucester from under the noses of the GWR.

Jim.

19 Sep 2008 23:04

from:

Bill_Lobb

Jim Guthrie wrote: Brian Lewis wrote: I can see that the Western supporters have never forgiven the Midland for nicking the Bristol and Gloucester from under the noses of the GWR.

Jim.
Well said, Jim. You are not alone.

Bill

21 Sep 2008 02:13

from:

Stumpytrain

Hi,

Well I had a quick tinker with No.10 crossover today, I'm quite pleased with the results so far.

Am I doing something wrong as I keep ending up with loads of templates in my storage box? Also I've got a gap in the rails between the two crossing vees. How did that happen? Is it because I've deleted the wrong template when trying to tidy my box?

Anyway, I'm happy with the results so far. I'm not looking forward to doing the scissors crossover though!

Alex

Attachment: bristol_old_station_08_09_20_2208_57.box (Downloaded 79 times)

21 Sep 2008 03:10

from:

Martin Wynne

Stumpytrain wrote: Am I doing something wrong as I keep ending up with loads of templates in my storage box? Also I've got a gap in the rails between the two crossing vees. How did that happen? Is it because I've deleted the wrong template when trying to tidy my box?
Hi Alex,

The extra templates in the file which you uploaded are unused templates (showing with blue markers). Unused templates remain in the storage box after you wipe them from the background. They enable you to revert to a previous design at a later stage should you change your mind about something.

If you don't want to create them, click delete to current on a background template when making design changes rather than wipe to current.

Note also that all the items in the tools menu with the word "make" in them put the current template on the background for you. If you do it too, you will get 2 copies of the template on the background.

The reason for the gap in the crossover is that you have the tracks at 24mm centre-to-centre spacing. But only turnout 10b has this set at geometry > adjacent track centres... menu item. Turnout 10a has the centres set to the default of 22.33mm,* and do > turnout road > is set to crossover (which terminates the turnout road at the crossover mid-point, CTRL-5 peg position). It does however line up, so I can only assume that you reset the default centres after creating the crossover.

If on turnout 10a you first move the peg to anywhere except CTRL-5 and then change the turnout-side (TS) spacing to 24mm, the gap in the centre will be filled in.

Or a quicker way to do that is to delete 10a, then delete 10b to current, then tools > make simple crossover.

*corresponds to 6ft way between the tracks at 2mm/ft scale.

regards,

Martin.

21 Sep 2008 19:05

from:

Stumpytrain

Hi Martin,

Thank you for the prompt and clear response. I think I'm starting to master the use of the storage box!

With regards to the crossover I did indeed alter the track centre after creating the crossover. That's now been correct and I've had a tinker with creating the blocked crossing work. Have I done this correctly and is there an easier way than shoving timbers perhaps?

I've has a go at extending in to Platform 15, and creating the adjacent lines at 13' centres. I'm going to print what I've done so far as the track centre for No.2 siding is the centre / ridge of the overall roof and I think this will be the easiest way to check. It's a shame there isn't a straight track from one end of the model to the other!

Using this I've started musing over the scissors crossover. How I'm going to do this I don't know! I've attached the best photograph I have of it.

Cheers,
Alex

Attachment: bristol_old_station_08_09_21_1451_22.box (Downloaded 75 times)

21 Sep 2008 19:07

from:

Stumpytrain

Oh, and here's the photograph!

Alex

Attached Image (viewed 566 times):

22 Sep 2008 01:22

from:

Stumpytrain

My latest efforts, just a mock up really. Quite a beautiful piece of prototype trackwork... shame my track plan isn't to the same standard (yet!)

Alex

Attachment: bristol_old_station_08_09_21_2116_28.box (Downloaded 85 times)

22 Sep 2008 02:03

from:

John Lewis

There were some interesting signals at teh end of platform 13.

22 Sep 2008 12:47

from:

Martin Wynne

Hi Alex,

A conundrum.

Looking at this photo of no.2 siding:

it is clear that the rail marked yellow is straight (and parallel to the walls), and that this switch is probably left-hand rather than the right-hand one in your draft design.

However, in this photo (and the track plan you posted), it obviously isn't parallel with the walls, although on balance the impression gained is also of a straight turnout and a left-hand switch:

Do the dates cover a significant track remodelling or the change in the number of tracks? Do you have any other pictures which might clarify things?

regards,

Martin.

22 Sep 2008 13:41

from:

Stumpytrain

John Lewis wrote:
There were some interesting signals at teh end of platform 13.

Yes, they're rather fabulous! Not as good as those on the end of Platform 15 though in my opinion. Stop signals in the same style as banner repeaters, presumably with a red band though!

The picture shows those on the end of Platform 12 as well...

Alex

22 Sep 2008 13:45

from:

Stumpytrain

Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Alex,

A conundrum.

Looking at this photo of no.2 siding:

it is clear that the rail marked yellow is straight (and parallel to the walls), and that this switch is probably left-hand rather than the right-hand one in your draft design.

I'm not aware of any track renewals between these photographs. Could it be an optical illusion caused by platform 15 curving away from the wall? Like so...

Personally I think the two pink lines are parallel and the two yellow lines are parallel. What do you reckon?

In the mean time I'll try to collect together every photograph I have of the scissors!

Alex

22 Sep 2008 14:41

from:

Martin Wynne

Stumpytrain wrote:I'm not aware of any track renewals between these photographs. Could it be an optical illusion caused by platform 15 curving away from the wall?Hi Alex,

Hmm. I think you are right.

I've now done what I should have done in the first place, and had a go at establishing the vanishing point for all the known horizontal parallel lines within the original building (yellow lines):

Which makes it clear that I was wrong -- the no.2 siding track (pink line) doesn't continue straight through this turnout. There must be a curve in there between the end of the coach and the ground signal, although it's very difficult to see.

However, I'm still inclined to say that the turnout itself is straight (and left-hand), because the near rails are clearly straight. (It's not possible for a curved object in a single plane to appear straight in a photograph.) This also corresponds to the impression from the photo of the scissors.

regards,

Martin.

22 Sep 2008 17:01

from:

Stumpytrain

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/colin_maggs_bristol_old_station_02_large.jpg

Martin Wynne wrote:
However, I'm still inclined to say that the turnout itself is straight (and left-hand), because the near rails are clearly straight. (It's not possible for a curved object in a single plane to appear straight in a photograph.) This also corresponds to the impression from the photo of the scissors.

Martin,

You are probably correct. The only reason I had it as a right hand was that the left hand route was the "normal" position and the right hand the "reverse." I've changed it to a left hand in Templot and it works a lot better. My latest box is attached if you're interested.

Also, as promised are all the photographs of the turnouts relating to the scissors I've every seen...

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/harold_d_bowtell_old_station_down_midland_xlarge.jpg

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/nrm_650-59_1958_large.jpg

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/p_j_kelley_bristol_old_station_large.jpg

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/real_photographs_6440_large.jpg

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/richard_hoskin_01_large.jpg

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/t_nicholls_23_april_1963_large.jpg

Alex

Attachment: bristol_old_station_08_09_22_1253_06.box (Downloaded 63 times)

22 Sep 2008 17:58

from:

Martin Wynne

Hi Alex,

That's a great collection of pictures, thanks for posting them. Especially this one:

I think there is enough there to have a go at gimping it to get the crossing angle.

It seems clear that the diamond part is straight both ways, so it might be a good idea to create a standard straight scissors elsewhere first. Then shift and rotate it into place as a group. You can then adjust the turnouts and switches to the prevailing reverse curves at each end.

The GWSG book has a drawing of a GWR scissors crossover in Fig. 46 on page 91. The angle isn't stated (unless I'm blind

), but I think it is 1:7.1/4 (and type 1 -- see below). That might seem an odd size, but there is a picture of a partial scissors at that angle on page 56, and the GWR tended to standardize components wherever possible.

However, this one is obviously flatter than that, although the drawing and notes are a good guide to the arrangement of the fittings.

The basic procedure to create an outline scissors crossover is:

1. start with a turnout of the required V-crossing angle, and TS track spacing centres.

2. do > turnout road > crossover

3. put the peg on TXP (CTRL-5)

4. do > snap to peg

5. tools > make mirror on peg

6. tools > make simple crossover

7. do > snap to peg

8. tools > make mirror on peg

9. store & background

That works starting with a straight or curved turnout, and gets you all the essential rail alignments. After which you can create all the partial templates needed for the final design.

If you start with a standard turnout the above procedure will most likely give you a type 1 scissors, with the V-crossings for the diamond in the turnout curves. However, it is much easier to construct a type 2 scissors, with the V-crossings for the diamond in extended crossing entry-straights on the turnouts. That produces a regular diamond with all its crossings of the same angle.

To do that, start by extending the entry-straight on the first turnout. You can do that by mouse action in version 091c, which makes it much easier to see what you are doing and keep an eye on the radius. There is a bit of Jing video showing that mouse action in use at:

http://screencast.com/t/q8zBFC9z

and some notes about it at:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=398910#p398910

regards,

Martin.

22 Sep 2008 18:50

from:

Stumpytrain

Hi Martin,

I've always considered myself to be disadvantaged compared to some prototype modellers in that I don't have many period photographs. But when I think about it I've actually managed to collect quite a few! It's a shame they were more interested in the locomotives and not the trackwork!

Your method for creating scissors crossover is super quick. I've had a quick attempt at creating a GWR 1in9 scissors, grouping, moving and a little rotating. Of the type 1 variety as you explained but it looks quite impressive, if I do say so myself.

14a is still a right hand point, is that why I've ended up with what looks to be an un wanted reverse curve on the line between 14a and 12b? Also, the switch for 12b must be longer as on the plan and in the photographs the stretcher bar is another 6 timbers to the right.

Thank you for your help so far!

Alex

Attachment: bristol_old_station_08_09_22_1449_03.box (Downloaded 84 times)

5 Dec 2008 23:36

from:

peterpeg

maybe its been Harry Pottered!!...

richard_t wrote: Although totally out of my time period and area, that last photograph is so atmospheric!

But where's platform 14?

28 Jul 2009 16:07

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Here is the box file of what I've done so far.

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 50 times)

Last edited on 28 Jul 2009 16:38 by Alan McMillan

28 Jul 2009 18:45

from:

Stumpytrain

Alan McMillan wrote: Hi Alex

Here is the box file of what I've done so far.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much for looking at my project. Sadly the box file only arrived minutes before I had to leave for work (I'm on nights this week) and Network Rail for some reason doesn't see the need to have Templot installed on its computers!

I will have a look when I get home in the morning. I can't wait!

Alex

28 Jul 2009 19:01

from:

John Lewis

Alex wrote:

Thank you so much for looking at my project. Sadly the box file only arrived minutes before I had to leave for work (I'm on nights this week) and Network Rail for some reason doesn't see the need to have Templot installed on its computers!

Hence the delays to the WCML moderbisation?

29 Jul 2009 05:48

from:

Stumpytrain

Alan McMillan wrote:
Hi Alex

Here is the box file of what I've done so far.

Alan

Top man! That's perfect, matches my scanned plan and photographs excellently. Right... time for bed!

Alex

29 Jul 2009 11:19

from:

Alan McMillan

Thanks Alex

This is the latest progress. It's probably as much as I can do today - my other half wants me to paint the hall! I'll probably be able to finish it tomorrow or the day after. If you hide the pad labels, centrelines and guide marks, you'll get a better idea of what's been done.

Regards

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 49 times)

Last edited on 29 Jul 2009 11:25 by Alan McMillan

29 Jul 2009 14:46

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

I've managed to get a bit more done this afternoon. The rails are finished. All I have to do now is the timbering.

Regards

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 19 times)

29 Jul 2009 15:02

from:

Stumpytrain

Alan McMillan wrote:
Hi Alex

I've managed to get a bit more done this afternoon. The rails are finished. All I have to do now is the timbering.

Regards

Alan

Wow, I'm gobsmacked. Thank you so much for your help, it looks fantastic. I'm still trying to work out if I'm looking forward to building that or not, it will look great though!

In case it effects the timbering, there is a single tongue trap point in the top left point coming out of No.2 siding. You can see it in the photograph here, just the to right of the generator:

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/library/images/railways/bristol_signalling/bristol_old_station_signal_box/nrm_650-59_1958_large.jpg

Thanks once again!

Alex

29 Jul 2009 15:43

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

I've noticed a couple of other things in that picture. The catch point on the track to the right of the generator, one track out from the platform also seems to have only one tongue. Also the far left turnout leading to the scissors appears to have a continuous check rail on it. I'll sort both out on the drawing.

Regards

Alan

29 Jul 2009 16:14

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Here's the amended and additional catch points and continuous check rail.

Regards

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 34 times)

Last edited on 29 Jul 2009 16:16 by Alan McMillan

30 Jul 2009 14:47

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Here it is, finished!. The timbering under the scissors is a bit intensive and strange in places, but this is in order that all the crossings etc are properly supported. I hope it's all you were hoping it would be.

Regards

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 26 times)

31 Jul 2009 15:12

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Here is the amended box file as promised

Regards

Alan

Attachment: Bristol Old Station.box (Downloaded 41 times)

Last edited on 31 Jul 2009 15:51 by Alan McMillan

31 Jul 2009 15:31

from:

Stumpytrain

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much, its perfect! I hope to start work on building this right away, I have no excuse not to now!

I've turned the labels off so it's nice to look out and printed a few copies off now. What I was wondering is there any way of not printing the black line triangles (what are they) in order to make the plan clearer?

Cheers,

Alex

31 Jul 2009 15:43

from:

Alan McMillan

Stumpytrain wrote: Hi Alan,

Thank you so much, its perfect! I hope to start work on building this right away, I have no excuse not to now!

I've turned the labels off so it's nice to look out and printed a few copies off now. What I was wondering is there any way of not printing the black line triangles (what are they) in order to make the plan clearer?

Cheers,

Alex
Hi Alex

You're very welcome Alex - I'd like to see it when you have constructed it.

The black triangles are the start points for transition curves. As far as I am aware, if you go to Generator/Generator Settings and uncheck track centrelines, radial end marks and guide marks, then, again in generator, click Rebuild All Background, you'll get a template that is free of all that clutter. If not, I'm afraid you'd have to refer to Martin for that one. I'm passably good at using the programme but I've never had much experience with the printing side of things. My layout is not yet started!

Regards

Alan

PS There's another slightly modified box file in the Bristol thread. I found another bit of timbering that was not quite right to my eyes, so I had to fix it. Perfectionism is sometimes a curse!

24 Sep 2009 02:08

from:

Stumpytrain

My first update for far too long... I've got to get cracking on this project!

Anyway, today I made a little progress on starting the point work. After some fantastic assistance with the Templot track plan I've started preparing the PCB timbers.

There are some more photographs of the progress on my website here:

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/model_railways/bristol_old_station/track.shtml

Cheers,
Alex

24 Sep 2009 09:15

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Good to see the track construction coming on. I went to your website to see more but all the picture links are dead. The other pages on the site are fine so it must just be that one.

Regards

Alan McMillan

24 Sep 2009 12:02

from:

Stumpytrain

Hi Alan,

Thank you for letting me know about the broken links! It would help if I uploaded the right file... :roll:

Anyway, it's all sorted now.

Last night I sweated the chair plates for one of the turnouts in place. Tedious work but it's starting to show a little more progress.

Alex

24 Sep 2009 12:09

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

It looks great!!

Keep up the good work.

Alan

25 Sep 2009 04:02

from:

Stumpytrain

Alan McMillan wrote:
It looks great!!

Keep up the good work.

Cheers, Alan... your template is a real godsend though.

I've finished all the sleepers now.

Also chaired up half of the 'simple' crossover.

Alex

25 Sep 2009 08:03

from:

Alan McMillan

Hi Alex

Thanks - it was fun to do!

I'd love to build this myself, but not in 2mm - I'd end up with independently swivelling eyeballs!

Alan

25 Sep 2009 11:51

from:

Stumpytrain

Alan McMillan wrote:
Hi Alex

Thanks - it was fun to do!

Well Bristol Old Station was intended as a trial for Bristol East Junction (my real passion!).

Let me know when you want to get started and I'll send you the background plan!

Alex

25 Sep 2009 12:05

from:

Alan McMillan