Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
|
||||
| author | remove search highlighting | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
posted: 17 Mar 2009 23:48 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Dear all, From time to time I receive an email like this, and I've just received another one below. The sender made the subject line "Despair", but I'm not sure which of us feels that in greater measure, because I just don't know how to answer.  He writes:
The sender has been a member here of Templot Club for about 2 months, but has never posted a message. When someone says that they have read and re-read my words, but it is all still a mystery, I don't know how to proceed. With the best will in the world I can't spend hours re-writing the web site in individual one-to-one emails, and I'm not sure that it would make any difference if I did. I'm trying to get the "save preferences" code done as promised, but it's proving hopeless with so many user support requests interrupting me. There is so much that I still want to do in Templot, but I'm beginning to despair that I will ever get the time to do it. Advice on how I might answer this email gratefully received. Martin. |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 00:31 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin How about "Hello X I suggest you put a message describing what you want to achieve and how you're thinking of setting about it on Templot Club. There are a load of Templot users there of varying degrees of experience who would be only too willing to provide suggestions and guidance. There's bound to be a distinct learning curve in getting to grips with software such as Templot and drawing on the experience of others who've been along that curve is a good way of getting going. .... " I think the "greatest good" is heavily weighted towards you continuing with Templot development. cheers Nigel |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 00:44 from: allanferguson
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"I and no doubt hundreds of others have got to grips with Templot; it took a while, and I'm still discovering new tricks, but Templot does what I want it to do, which is probably different from what many others want it to do. style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"You can't be all things to all people, and I think you have to accept that a small number of people will not come to terms with the program. I for one would very much rather you spent your time developing the program rather than spending many hours holding the hands of a very small minority of buyers. I would also hope you could spend some time doing what you enjoy (building railway models?) style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"I can't see Microsoft giving me that level of assistance with Access or Word. style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"Allan Ferguson Martin Wynne wrote: Dear all, |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 00:48 from: allanferguson
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
allanferguson wrote: style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffee"I I'm sorry -- I don't know how I got that! Allan Ferguson |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 00:49 from: Jim Guthrie
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, And maybe see if he can post a copy of the scan file being he is trying to import. I get the feeling that the problem might be down to a corrupt file. Jim. |
|||
| Last edited on 18 Mar 2009 00:50 by Jim Guthrie |
||||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 00:52 from: John Preston
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
The sender of the message has only given you his feelings. What he/she needs to do is give more detailed information about what they are trying to do, what file sizes etc they are working with and perhaps some information about their computer e.g. operating system, hard disk size etc. There are many of us out here willing to help if a request is made, however we/you cannot respond to such a general statement without having further detailed information of what this person is trying to accomplish. I would further emphasize that reading the tutorials is only a start. To get the most out of them it is helpful if not necessary to follow and duplicate what the tutorial is doing. I have found it most helpful to watch your video tutorials and then make up my own printed (with screen shot pictures) tutorials. Throughout this process I have made a number of misteaks (Spelling error intentional) but I have learned much about both track work and how Templot works to make partial templates that are used to produce some fantastic trackwork. Hope this helps all. Regards John P in Alberta |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 09:32 from: Pete Brownlow click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, I sympathise with you - I do IT support and you do occasionally get users who will take their frustrations out on you. I had a user recently who seriously told me that the solution I was proposing to his problem was unacceptable because it meant he would have to think about it! My suggestion (and I think you should do this with all of us Templot users) is to respond that technical support (with the exception perhaps of licensing queries) is NOT available by private email and must be done by posting to this forum. This is similar to Nigel's proposed response, but slightly stronger in that I think you should require users to post problems here rather than by private email, rather than just suggesting it. This ensures that others here can help you with the support burden and also ensures that once answered, at least the answers are there for others to see so hopefully this reduces the extent to which you get asked the same questions over again. I get most of my Templot questions answered just by searching Templot club. If this user is not prepared to post his question here, then that really is his problem. As already commented, we all want you to be able to spend time developing Templot and try and reduce the time you spend on support. Pete |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 10:24 from: Templot User
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
----- from Mike Johnson ----- My thoughts are that not having a standard Windows interface is a big problem for new users. You may not like Windows, but its a standard that most people know, and new users expect programs to work that way. Almost everything in Templot works in an alien way, so it takes 10 times as long to do anything. If I want to move the end of something, after pressing F4 I expect to move the mouse in the direction I want to move it, but not in Templot. If I select something new, I don't expect the previous selection to be deleted, when I do undo (to get it back), I expect the last action to be reversed, I don't expect something else to be deleted. Why do the scroll bars (box) disappear when I use less than full screen, its very annoying. The video's are quite good, but I find I have to watch them, and write down the steps, then I follow my notes. Unfortunately tandem points start with something I don't know how to get to. I've read before that you believe that most of the problems are caused by a lack of users prototype track knowledge, but do I really have to know this before I can use the program ? I want to spend my time making track and loco's not playing with a computer. I've managed to draw the track for an extension to the club layout, printed the templates and made the pointwork, but I feel it takes longer to do the drawing than to make the track. I don't believe that you can actually fix any of this quickly, but from a new users point of view I think making it easier to use would be better than adding anything new. Mike Johnson |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 11:31 from: Raymond
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Pete Brownlow wrote: Hi Martin,I have similar problems with my company's clients using our software and I agree with Pete that it should be mandatory for all requests for technical support (except licensing) to post their questions here. Regards Raymond |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 11:35 from: Raymond
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Templot User wrote: ----- from Mike Johnson -----The day it has a 'Window' interface is the day I shall probably give up using Templot because it will, by definition, be totally compromised by the limitations of Mr Gate's abomination and require a hundred megabytes of disk space to boot. Regards Raymond |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 11:37 from: Templot User
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
----- from John Walker ---------- from Mike Johnson ----- I keep hearing this wish but I do not think it will solve any problems. Take Word and Access. Yes they have a common style for opening and closing files and many other similar things but I find the differences when using tables to be very frustrating. If Microsoft cannot get tables to work in the same way what hope has Martin got of forcing an application like Templot to work like a word processor? I think "standard" interfaces lead to a false sense of security. So you can easily learn how to open files and you feel good about that but you are just putting off the evil day when you have to sit down and really learn about the software and the application. Keep up the good work Martin. I think you are on right track (sorry). John Walker |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 11:58 from: Andy B click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
In reponse the the points from Mike Johnson; "not having a standard Windows interface is a problem...." - Why? I concur with Martins recent comments; the Templot interface has menus, it has pop-up boxes and other boxes that can be moved around on screen. It doesn't use the standard Windows colour scheme or fonts. Is that such a big blocker to its use? And why should users expect it to look like Windows? All the screenshots in Martin's advertising and in the many examples on here show that it doesn't. Sorry, but I just don't get this argument either. The next few points are to my mind all covered by the fact that Templot is a track design / calculation / analysis tool - it isn't a 2D CAD tool, it isn't a graphic design tool. The nearest analogy I have is to liken it to a stress analysis tool - if you don't understand the basics of stress analysis, you wouldn't try to use it. So how can you design trackwork if you don't understand the design parameters? "after pressing F4 I expect to move the mouse in the direction I want to move it" & "I expect the last action to be reversed, I don't expect something else to be deleted" - only when you understand (at a basic level, not in detail) what the program is having to do (in terms of all its backgound calculations, implied above) would you realise that the mouse action (F4) is simply giving you a 'slider' to change a parameter which results in a calculation involving many other parameters. Similarly, 'undo' is not as simple as replacing that paragraph we just accidentally deleted in MSWord - again, it involves re-doing many calculations. If you want to go make track, then just go make track - using radius aids, a limited range of standard crossings and switches, and a couple of track gauges. I believe Martin has stated many times - that is not the intended market for Templot. But if you want to design track that conforms to the design parameters used on the full-sized railway, then Templot is the tool for the job. And as the formation gets more complex, the more a specialised tool is needed - so my vote is definitely to develop the 'complex' bits such as irregular diamonds, which can't be easily done with 2D CAD, drawing board etc. Andy |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 12:00 from: Andy B click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
double post removed. Finger trouble? Andy |
|||
| Last edited on 18 Mar 2009 12:43 by Andy B |
||||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 12:09 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin I think you have to accept that you will always get some people for whom Templot is just not going to be an option. Some people just don't get on with some programs - it's as simple as that! Having said that, if your customer hasn't asked for help on this forum, he's missing out on a massive resource of knowledge. Wasn't it part of the Ts & Cs that this forum is first-line support, or was that just a suggestion? If it was just a suggestion, it sounds like you need to make it compulsory so you can get on with other things! Also, I don't know how long he's had Templot for, but if it's as long as he's been a member of the forum it sounds like he's trying to run before he can walk. Just a random thought - does his computer meet any mimimum hardware requirements? I can only suggest that you persuade him to post on the forum detailing his level of experience and exactly what it is he's trying to do. He says he's worked through the tutorials, but is he just copying them parrot fashion or does he actually understand what's being done? Don't despair!! (Yet  )Paul |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 12:29 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Mike Johnson wrote:The video's are quite good, but I find I have to watch them, and write down the steps, then I follow my notes. Unfortunately tandem points start with something I don't know how to get to.Writing down your own notes is quite a common and normal thing to do with any new program - I don't see that as being a problem. I'm fortunate in have two monitors so it's quite easy to have the video on one monitor and Templot on the other, but even now for things like Pinnacle Studio I have sheaves of paper with hand-written notes and settings. As far as tandem points are concerned, having just watched the video, there is an assumed level of knowledge before you start. I think a lot of these videos are written in response to specific requests from people who've got so far then get stuck, but in this case getting to the starting point is very easy - you just have to ask  I've read before that you believe that most of the problems are caused by a lack of users prototype track knowledge, but do I really have to know this before I can use the program ? I want to spend my time making track and loco's not playing with a computer.I my opinion, the purpose of Templot is specifically so that you can design templates based on prototype track knowledge. If you don't have that knowledge, you can only use Templot as a generic template or layout design tool, and you're not making best use of it. For instance, I have layouts with all templates based on WC&PR trackwork from the early 1900s, or Festiniog Railway based on 1960s trackwork where I've actually gone and measured turnouts in detail, or GWR templates based on the GWSG book. You can only transfer all that into Templot - no other program that I'm aware of can give you that. I'm hesitant to say this, but if you just want to spend time making track then maybe Templot isn't for you. If you want to spend time making track that conforms to prototype standards, then Templot is for you. There is also a disturbing tendency for Templot to become a hobby in its own right I've got loads of layouts Templotted that will never get built, but I enjoying planning them as much as building other stuff. At the end of the day, it's all about enjoying a hobby no matter what the form! I mean, some people even play trains on computer simulators!!Cheers Paul |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 13:08 from: Richard Johnson
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
My thoughts are that not having a standard Windows interface is a big problem for new users. You may not like Windows, but its a standard that most people know, and new users expect programs to work that way. Templot could never do what it does if it worked like standard Windows software. I once thought 100% as you do, but it eventually clicked that the issue is not the interface, it's the approach: I use Windows based software all the time every day but there is as much a trap as an advantage in that - by simply using common features one programme to another you often fail to see the potential or explore the real possibilities of a programme beyond the comfortable. Its the same with MAC programmes - I am very fluent with photoshop and a couple of others but was having problems with/ finding adobe illustrator quite frustrating - but the frustration wasn't the interface... it was the terminology, the programmes very wide abilities or degree of difference that threw me as old habits were driving my expectation and actions. Templot is simply brilliant, but it needs to be approached as something totally new - not as "yet another programme". That's because it is different in ability, terminology, input need and scope - not because of the interfaces... . You need to look at it as a whole. Terminology and the importance of a logical progression of actions and related shortcuts need to come together. I too found it frustrating as I only toyed with it (before getting frustrated) for months until I thought - this is stupid - I can do almost anything... why is it getting to me. I made the decision to ignore old habits, "unlearn", go back to basics (as the website told me on day one), swallow my pride and work through the web examples and then use Martin's excellent Video tutorials which I had only skipped over and given lip service to previously. The Video tutorials did it for me. What a difference. About three things that had annoyed and frustrated me time after time suddenly clicked and I was able to make good progress. Several sessions later the shortcuts and the "where in the menus to look" for various actions was bedded in and anything became possible. If I don't use it for a while it does take an hour of "how did I do that last time" .... but it's faster each time... as my knowledge of turnouts and their terminology gets better. I still marvel at some of the masterful Templot examples I see and probably still need to refine my approach to bother more with timber shoving and total perfection in alignment... but overall, looking back, once I had approached it properly it really took me less time to become comfortable with Templot than many "creative" or design type packages... So - don't look for Templot to meet your existing approach, don't use old keyboard habits or look for similarities which will only distract you and frustrate - embrace it as a whole package, learn the language of turnouts, work through the videos and it will soon make sense. Regards Richard. |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 13:48 from: BruceNordstrand
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Paul Boyd wrote: "I my opinion, the purpose of Templot is specifically so that you can design templates based on prototype track knowledge. If you don't have that knowledge, you can only use Templot as a generic template or layout design tool, and you're not making best use of it. For instance, I have layouts with all templates based on WC&PR trackwork from the early 1900s, or Festiniog Railway based on 1960s trackwork where I've actually gone and measured turnouts in detail, or GWR templates based on the GWSG book. You can only transfer all that into Templot - no other program that I'm aware of can give you that. I'm hesitant to say this, but if you just want to spend time making track then maybe Templot isn't for you. If you want to spend time making track that conforms to prototype standards, then Templot is for you." Well, I wish I had known that before I bought it then. I am a model railroader, not a real life railroader. I bought Templot not knowing anything technical about the real thing but to create custom turnouts over plans drawn in Autocad. Have I done this yet? Nope, still *trying* to get to grips with the software because of too long many gaps in the learning process. If my lack of ability to gain the knowledge required to use the program is because I don't know about real standards or specs then I better not waste anymore time with it. Maybe Martin needs to explain this better to prospective purchasers. Bruce |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 14:12 from: Paul Boyd
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi BruceWell, I wish I had known that before I bought it then. I am a model railroader, not a real life railroader.I did say that it was my opinion - I wasn't stating it as a sales feature. I also said that you can use Templot to generate off-the-shelf templates, but that that isn't making best use of it. It's a bit like buying a Ferrari then only using it to go to the shops - there's nothing wrong with doing that, but you're not making best use of it. If my lack of ability to gain the knowledge required to use the program is because I don't know about real standards or specs then I better not waste anymore time with it.No, that isn't the case and I didn't say that - I said that you can "use Templot as a generic template or layout design tool" if you don't have prototype knowledge. You've bought Templot. It's quite capable of doing what you want to do with it. You can still drive your Ferrari to the shops! Maybe Martin needs to explain this better to prospective purchasers.Martin doesn't need to explain my opinions to his purchasers - I have no connection with Martin or Templot except as a very satisfied user of Templot. I've just looked again at Templot's "front page" and I think he explains very well exactly what Templot does and what can be done with it. Cheers Paul |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 14:19 from: Templot User
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
----- from John Walker ----- Richard Johnson wrote: The Video tutorials did it for me. What a difference. When I first started using Templot my approach was to think of a straight layout then bend it a bit. Things all changed when I helped a friend Templot a layout on a continuous curve. I had to throw away my previous approach and really think hard about where to start and how to develop from there. I learnt a lot designing that layout. As you said it is the approach that makes the difference. John Walker Web: http://www.jswalker.demon.co.uk |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 14:28 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
There's one thing I don't think has been brought out in the discussion so far, and that that is Templot has a very wide range of applicability, with a correspondingly wide range of complexity. Yes, it can be used to design a layout with absolute prototype fidelity done to the last rail joint, but it can equally be used simply to run off templates for individual turnouts, which are similar to those you can obtain from various other sources. Even if just used for the latter I believe it to be excellent value for money, as it is far more flexible than using "fixed" templates because you can vary at will the basic parameters involved such as the crossing angle, curvature, etc. I'd suggest that anyone starting out in Templot who plunges straight into trying to produce the grand scheme they have in mind are making a big mistake. First of all start with a simple turnout. If it's one they will need then so much the better. If they can't do that then really Templot isn't for them, but I suspect that most people will be able to do that. Then maybe they could try slightly more complex formations e.g. a simple crossover, a simple loop; this will also give them the opportunity to shove timbers into a more realistic arrangement than you get just using standard turnouts. That will I think cover the basics. Even if they just stick at that they will have something which can be employed on a wide variety of plans. If they then go on try their grand scheme in totol, they will be better equipped to tackle it, although should expect that there is a lot of work involved it pinning everything down exactly, particularily if they're following a prototype plan. And it has to be said that some turnouts e.g. slips are rather complex, simply because the prototype is. cheers Nigel |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 14:31 from: Alan McMillan
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin I've had Templot for about four years or so and in nearly all that time found myself frustrated with its apperent complexity. Once I decided to take it one step at a time and learn the basics (like how to use the peg and notch) the rest just fell into place until now, 6 months later, I'm designing a very complex Swiss based layout with irregular diamonds and scissors crossovers on curves to name but two. The moral is for this disappointed user is to learn to walk before you run or you'll become very quickly frustrated and disillusioned. Also, as someone who works in IT support, I would say that, in my experience, around 90% of the problems I have to solve are user error and it seems to me this chap is in that category. If he can't get to grips with the basics of Templot but is trying to draw over a scan, I would say he's getting ahead of himself and is probably doing something wrong. Templot is a fabulous piece of software which is unique in the market and I cannot praise it highly enough - you just have to accept some people will never get to grips with it. I encounter people at work every day who, after years of trying, cannot get to grips with anything but the most basic of computer tasks and even then do it by rote and not through an understanding of what they're doing. I would say that you shouldn't lose sleep over this particular user's desperate e-mail. Better to concentrate on program development. There is a huge repository of knowledge and experience in the Templot Club's membership which could take some of the weight from you so that you are freed up to do just that. For myself the only development I feel Templot really needs is wing and check rail modifications done through mouse action. Just my sixpence worth! Regards Alan McMillan |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 14:34 from: Alan McMillan
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin I've had Templot for about four years or so and in nearly all that time found myself frustrated with its apperent complexity. Once I decided to take it one step at a time and learn the basics (like how to use the peg and notch) the rest just fell into place until now, 6 months later, I'm designing a very complex Swiss based layout with irregular diamonds and scissors crossovers on curves to name but two. The moral is for this disappointed user is to learn to walk before you run or you'll become very quickly frustrated and disillusioned. Also, as someone who works in IT support, I would say that, in my experience, around 90% of the problems I have to solve are user error and it seems to me this chap is in that category. If he can't get to grips with the basics of Templot but is trying to draw over a scan, I would say he's getting ahead of himself and is probably doing something wrong. Templot is a fabulous piece of software which is unique in the market and I cannot praise it highly enough - you just have to accept some people will never get to grips with it. I encounter people at work every day who, after years of trying, cannot get to grips with anything but the most basic of computer tasks and even then do it by rote and not through an understanding of what they're doing. I would say that you shouldn't lose sleep over this particular user's desperate e-mail. Better to concentrate on program development. There is a huge repository of knowledge and experience in the Templot Club's membership which could take some of the weight from you so that you are freed up to do just that. For myself the only development I feel Templot really needs is wing and check rail modifications done through mouse action. Just my sixpence worth! Regards Alan McMillan |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 15:24 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Thanks for all the comments and advice -- much appreciated. I said that I didn't know how to reply to that email, but I can now send a link to this topic. In reply to some of the comments, here are some extracts from the order confirmation letter which I send to new purchasers of Templot: "Please read all of this letter before starting to use Templot" No-one ever does, of course. "Upgrade to 091c when you have become familiar with Templot basics. With the proviso that diamond-crossings and slips are much simplified, so leave trying those until you are ready to upgrade to 091c. On the other hand, if you have previously used other track design programs and prefer simply to snap templates together, rather than work through the tutorials for prototypical design, you may want to upgrade to 091c immediately." A complaint that the release version 074b and the accompanying tutorials are out of date and don't properly reflect the current Pug versions would be entirely justified -- and I would find it difficult to respond. Strangely, no-one ever says that.  "To get the most from Templot please consider joining Templot Club. This is a support forum and web site for Templot users to ask questions, exchange information, ideas, and data files, and to keep up to date with the latest Templot news. Templot Club has over 600 members and a searchable online archive of over 12,000 messages about Templot and model track building. Membership is free and open to everyone interested in model trackwork, and you would be very welcome to join this friendly user forum. Even if you don't wish to contribute, it is worth visiting the site to read other users' hints, tips and queries, and to get the latest news about Templot developments." But only a minority of users do join, although I have no way of knowing how many of the other visitors to the site are actual users. "If you have any ordering, installation or licensing problems with Templot, please email me direct at: martin@templot.com . But for help in using Templot or with model track matters, please ask on the Templot Club forums (details above). If you do not wish to be a member of Templot Club you can email to forum@templot.com and read the replies on the web site. Your message will then appear from "Templot User". I regret that I do not have the resources to offer individual email support on the use of Templot." Unfortunately I can't put that last bit in red in a plain text email. It certainly seems to escape the attention of many."Have fun with Templot. New users sometimes find it baffling at first, but it is all quite simple once you get started. I would recommend that you become familiar with adjusting and printing single templates before attempting a full on-screen track plan. When you are ready to try that, there are some screen videos and tutorial sequences on the Templot web site to work through." Nor that red bit, although as Nigel has said, it's an important first step. In fact I have often said that it is the primary function of Templot, and the on-screen track planning is merely a secondary function. Many users might do better to stop right there and do their track planning directly on the baseboard with the printed paper templates. It's great fun, much less daunting and stressful than on-screen planning, and it's dead easy to produce as many different templates as you like. You can stand buildings in position; roll wagons about; incorporate existing items of trackwork; stand back and visualise the whole thing. If space is a problem the templates can be printed at a smaller scale. It's easy to do and you don't need to access files at all. It's where Templot began, and it still has a lot to be said for it. regards, Martin. |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 17:27 from: Alan Turner
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, we have been here before and my view, as it has always been, is that you should concentrate on the programme development and leave the Forum to deal with queries. you are trying to be too helpfull. However picking up on a couple of points I think there is a perception issue and an approach issue. If people just want to stick templates together then they would be better off with AnyRail and such like. Templot is different and whilst you say it is a template drawing programme the best approach to using Templot is not to use it in that way. My approach (although I did not start this way!) is to put the basic spine plain track structure in first and then insert the turnouts into that and build the whole layout from that. That way you develop flowing track work. Now that is not obvious when you start using Templot and I think quite a few of the beginner’s problems stem from not appreciating that and trying to construct layouts by "sticking templates together". Perhaps I am wrong in my approach to using Templot but it works for me. Alan |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 18:04 from: Martin Wynne
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Alan Turner wrote: If people just want to stick templates together then they would be better off with AnyRail and such like.Hi Alan, But AnyRail doesn't let you print a curved B-7 turnout on 1750mm radius in EM gauge, and then change your mind and make it a B-7.5 on 1500mm radius instead. I think quite a few of the beginner’s problems stem from not appreciating that and trying to construct layouts by "sticking templates together".I wrote about the two design approaches at: message 793 F7 snapping was introduced rather against my better judgement in response to user requests. But at times it can be extremely useful (and very quick). In this message: message 1358 I wrote: "The 'pick-and place' functions which you are probably expecting to find are available in 082d and 091b (F7 snapping) but not in earlier versions. Those functions will get you quickly started, but I recommend that you abandon them in the long run and revert to prototypical design -- which is why they weren't in earlier versions." regards, Martin. |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 18:44 from: Alan Turner
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, I absolutely agree and I do use the F7 snapping function as well of course. As to AnyRail of course you are correct but at least it’s simple to use. The point I was trying to make was that I think that beginners start off snapping templates but then quickly run into problems when they start to become more ambitious. It would be helpful if they were to realise early on that is not the most beneficial approach. Alan |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 22:06 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Would there be any merit in suggesting that instead of opening Templot with a default turnout template, it would open with a piece of curved plain track maybe? I'm more of the lets design a whole layout in Templot group instead of lets print this turnout or stick it to that one. I pretty much always start with plain track, I'm also more than happy to go into Templot and click convert template to plain track no matter how many clicks or menus it takes me to do it. Then once I have my plain track I'll click add turnout to plain track and then go from there instead of snapping templates together, although I do use this facility as It can be a time saver in certain situations. I personally feel that the 'Add turnout to plain track' feature is the main feature that people who find it difficult or can't get started with Templot need to know about, and maybe by starting with plain track templates would help? Just a thought.... Dave |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 23:28 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I'm a bit surprised at the thoughts creeping in that there are just two quite distinct camps, namely the lets-design-a-whole-layout group and the lets-snap-it-together-like-settrack group. This seems to me a vast over simplification of how people go about things; Templot is capable of any number of approaches and which way to go is a very individual thing. Now I don't know how engineers design an actual railway, although I'm pretty sure Martin does, but my guess is that it doesn't go along the lines of "lets design a beautiful sweeping curve and then stick the turnouts in". I think they are working with all sorts of constraints of the characteristics of the site in question, what exterior lines are entering the site, how they want various lines to connect, what sort of turnouts they consider are suitable considering the sort of traffic involved, and so on. I think they would arrive fairly quickly at what sort of track scheme they are looking at, but I'd be surprised if at a fairly early stage they didn't get down to details of particular turnout configurations. Then, having worked out what they think are desirable in turnout detail, they can see how the linking tracks, sidings and other things plan out; this is probably an iterative process, if the plain track doesn't look too good see what mods to the turnout configurations are needed. As I say, this is a guess on my part. But I think it has some truth in it because plain track running lines in anything other than easy situations are often a complex sequence of straights, curves and transitions, in order to get the track to fit in with other things like turnout configurations. Or to put it differently, if the more difficult turnouts can be avoided by pushing the plain track around a bit, then within reason they will do just that. In the case of sidings it is even more marked; lack of transitions, presence of reverse curves are quite common. I mention all that because it reflects the approach I naturally tend to adopt. I home in on turnouts. If there's a central dominant turnout configuration, like at the station throat, then that's where I start. Having had a go at producing what I think is wanted, I expand outwards. In fact, plain track is then just a means of getting to the next turnout configuration. All the time of course I keep in mind what I've seen of prototype track (for real or in pictures), trying to make mine have that "real" look. The thing about this approach is that it lends itself to a certain sort of modularity. So whereas Templot being used just to produce templates of individual turnouts may be considered rather limited, dividing a layout up into self-contained turnout configurations which can be produced seperately makes a whole lot more sense. And I think is an easier approach for the newcomer to adopt than to plunge in and try to design everything as a single whole. cheers Nigel |
|||
|
posted: 18 Mar 2009 23:42 from: davelong click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I'm not saying that there a just 2 distinct categories of templotiers out there. Also I didn't say anything about creating a beautiful sweeping curve and then plonking a turnout in it. Your approach you described is valid if I was to fit a layout of track into the real world. However when most people open Templot they are greeted by a vast emptyness of blue world. I start with a small piece of PLAIN track and then add turnouts but all the while they are tweaked and curved, transitions added etc. I never described building lots of plain track sections and stitching them together with added turnouts. I evolve from that one turnout to the next, seemingly the way you've described, sorting out the major pointwork configuration for what is needed for the particular layout plan. |
|||
|
posted: 19 Mar 2009 00:20 from: John Lewis
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Nigel said [cut]: Now I don't know how engineers design an actual railway The trouble is that it is not PC to produce a fag packet on which to sketch out the initial design .... :-) My first templates were for plain track as the GWR used 44ft 6in rail lengths and from earlier years 32ft. John |
|||
|
posted: 19 Mar 2009 00:25 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
davelong wrote: I'm not saying that there a just 2 distinct categories of templotiers out there. Also I didn't say anything about creating a beautiful sweeping curve and then plonking a turnout in it.Dave Sorry, my comments weren't aimed at your previous comments specifically. What I was trying to get across was the idea that whereas someone who just plots out individual turnouts (although useful) isn't making the best use of Templot, someone who concentrates on groups of joined turnouts (where they can get something like the prototype, which they usually can't by sticking together separate individual templates) is getting an awful lot out of Templot and this may be the place for newcomers to concentrate on, rather than try to do a whole layout straight off. cheers Nigel |
|||
|
posted: 19 Mar 2009 03:54 from: BruceNordstrand
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Paul One thing I forgot to put on my reply was a smilie or two. I understand that there are two very different camps here - those that want to reproduce to the last detail a section of track from some place in the world. Then there are those that want something better than the other "design" packages offer. I am in the second camp as I want to create my railroad exactly as it was designed, that being with flowing trackwork not limited by #5 or #6 turnouts. When I found Templot I thought all of my prayers had been answered but did not expect the learning curve that it required. I would say I have actually owned Templot for a few years now and have never created anything concrete in it. My bad on that front as various outside influences have stopped me sitting down for any great length of time. Yes, I am from the Windows world as I am a software developer in 4GL languages and have been weened on the M$ way of doing things. Now I am on my 8th layout design I will force myself to get to know Templot a little better so I can do justice to the paper plan when it comes time to lay track. Oh, and as for that Ferrari - couldn't have one of those in my area, the hoons would coin it if I drove it to the shops! I'll stick with my 94 Ford Falcon. Martin - apologies for taking your thread off topic. Cheers Bruce Paul Boyd wrote: Hi Bruce |
|||
|
posted: 19 Mar 2009 04:34 from: Stuart Mitchell
click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Yes at first I found Templot to be a very hard program to learn and get use to the way it ways, I also wished I had never spent the dollars and got that new loco but now I have taken the time to work though the program and it's great. The only thing I need to learn is slips and I think I will be able to start that new layout. Thanks for a great program Stuart |
|||
| Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so. |