Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 1055Index
author remove search highlighting
 
posted: 25 Feb 2010 05:32

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin,
Further to your message about the Index some time ago to which there was a somewhat underwhelming response I have a couple of suggestions.

1. Why don't you highlight the existence of the Index with links at least as conspicuous as those for the searches?
2. When you provide the answer to a question with which you are completely satisfied, the answer that is:D or even if you see one you like in the daily message files from another member. Index it immediately.

The Index will start to be more useful and will be updated progressively.
Eventually more and more answers to questions will be something like "Refer to Index item xxxxx" and then only because the person asking is not sure of what the right question is:D This must save you time in the long run.

Regards,

ken
Last edited on 25 Feb 2010 05:35 by kenbec
posted: 25 Feb 2010 06:53

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Martin,
Further to your message about the Index some time ago to which there was a somewhat underwhelming response I have a couple of suggestions.

1. Why don't you highlight the existence of the Index with links at least as conspicuous as those for the searches?
Hi Ken,

It was and is my intention to do so. But there is little point until there is sufficient material there to make it worth visiting.

Sending folks to it before then could be counter-productive, in that they might come to think of it as not worth looking at.

Everything takes time. Richard posted several useful index links a few days ago, but I have not yet had time to enter them in the index, and I won't have for the next few days. Derek is waiting for a video on passing clearances. I recorded it over a week ago, but have still not found time to write the notes and prepare the web page. I have just spent half-an-hour (at 5am UK) trying to get a new order confirmation to Canada past spam filters and IP-blocks. I am going to have to set up a system of order confirmations via the web because email is becoming so unreliable. That will no doubt take up a few more days of my Templot-time.

2. When you provide the answer to a question with which you are completely satisfied, the answer that is :D or even if you see one you like in the daily message files from another member. Index it immediately.
That is my intention. When there is enough in the index to make it worth visiting, I shall re-compile and upload a new version daily.

For those reading this and wondering, the index is at: http://www.templot.com/forum_index/

(It is currently on my UK hosting, but I shall probably move it to Ohio when fully operational.)

There is one set of pages which definitely needs a much more prominent link, that is:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info.htm

and an additional page with the 091 changes info.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Feb 2010 07:52

from:

BruceNordstrand
 
Riverstone, NSW - Australia

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Martin

I have thought this for a while now, but why don't you install one of the free Wiki products floating around. With one people could add their own info and take a hell of a load off yourself. There is tons of software products out there that use them so I can only see it being beneficial in the long run. Maybe even Brian would use it :)

Cheers
Bruce

posted: 25 Feb 2010 07:54

from:

BruceNordstrand
 
Riverstone, NSW - Australia

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this is the sort of things I am talking about:

http://twiki.org/

posted: 25 Feb 2010 08:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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BruceNordstrand wrote:
I have thought this for a while now, but why don't you install one of the free Wiki products floating around. With one people could add their own info and take a hell of a load off yourself.
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for that, but I'm not sure how it differs significantly from what we have already. If anyone has something to contribute, please just post it here on Templot Club and then send me the link to include it in the index. Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Feb 2010 08:32

from:

BruceNordstrand
 
Riverstone, NSW - Australia

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Martin

It differs in the fact that YOU don't have to do anything, each USER can update/add (depending on permissions) themselves WITHOUT you intervention. This has to be better than taking up your time that you would rather be spending on Templot and would go a long way to satisfying those who want/need documentation.

Please do not take this the wrong way but I get the feeling that you do not want to "lose control" over anything & everything to do with Templot.

Something like this puts the onus back on those who have the knowledge to share at their leisure WITHOUT having to involve you in the process.

Cheers
Bruce

posted: 25 Feb 2010 09:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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BruceNordstrand wrote:
Please do not take this the wrong way but I get the feeling that you do not want to "lose control" over anything & everything to do with Templot.
Hi Bruce,

Templot is a paid-for product, which means there are legal issues relating to product description. I can't allow anyone and everyone to make statements about it which appear to be part of the Templot web site.

Everyone is welcome to post whatever they wish here on Templot Club, as it is clearly a user forum and material appears with the sender's name prominently attached to it.

Anything else on the Templot web site has to remain under my control.

There is not too much work in compiling the index, once I get the format finalised and steady supply of links. I have a similar A-Z Index running for RMweb and there is a team of volunteers feeding me files to include. See:

  http://85a.co.uk/rmweb_indexers_forum/

  http://85a.co.uk/rmweb_index/

(p.s. Many pages on that index have images missing -- RMweb has just moved to Ohio and is not yet fully restored.)

The same thing can work here on Templot Club, once I have the index format and utility programs finalised. It's made a bit more complicated by the need to include stuff from Yahoo, and the cross-domain cookies.

It will all come right in the end. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 Feb 2010 06:23

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Martin,
Further to your message about the Index some time ago to which there was a somewhat underwhelming response I have a couple of suggestions.

1. Why don't you highlight the existence of the Index with links at least as conspicuous as those for the searches?
2. When you provide the answer to a question with which you are completely satisfied, the answer that is :D or even if you see one you like in the daily message files from another member. Index it immediately.
For those reading this and wondering, the index is at: http://www.templot.com/forum_index/

(It is currently on my UK hosting, but I shall probably move it to Ohio when fully operational.)

There is one set of pages which definitely needs a much more prominent link, that is:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info.htm

and an additional page with the 091 changes info.

regards,

Martin.
Its me again Martin,
UNBELIEVABLE you can come up with more reasons NOT to do anything than anyone I have ever known.:D
Lets look at this one.
Why did I make the suggestion that I did? Well I saw it as a way of as painlessly as possible making use of an Index already proposed by you. It would become more prominently available and be built up progressively with the minimum of effort all round.
Now for your objections:-
“It was and is my intention to do so. But there is little point until there is sufficient material there to make it worth visiting.
My reaction is. When is this going to occur? It is heading for a year now since you put up your request for contributions and the Index is still languishing in obscurity.
“Sending folks to it before then could be counter-productive, in that they might come to think of it as not worth looking at.
No this one won't do, it has no validity whatsoever, a simple note at the beginning of the Index saying “This Index is in the course of expansion daily and will become more effective as time goes by, please check before asking questions” would cover the situation but only if it IS updated accordingly. Your original wording should remain to encourage user participation in the updating of the Index.
“Everything takes time.”
It sure does but what is important is how you use the time.
“Richard posted several useful index links a few days ago, but I have not yet had time to enter them in the index, and I won't have for the next few days. Derek is waiting for a video on passing clearances. I recorded it over a week ago, but have still not found time to write the notes and prepare the web page.
Both part of the time allocation problem which needs to be resolved, the video could also be a prime example of what I am suggesting should be indexed immediately.
“I have just spent half-an-hour (at 5am UK) trying to get a new order confirmation to Canada past spam filters and IP-blocks. I am going to have to set up a system of order confirmations via the web because email is becoming so unreliable. That will no doubt take up a few more days of my Templot-time.”
Obviously anything which interferes with the operation of your business is a priority task, although why you find email to be so unreliable beats me. Has the client set up his system so tightly that virtually nothing can get through?
“That is my intention. When there is enough in the index to make it worth visiting, I shall re-compile and upload a new version daily.”
When is this going to happen? You have recently received a few links which I think was triggered by our earlier correspondence. Let us assume the unlikely event that all of your users suddenly spring into action and start sending you referrals. Here again you are  faced with an overwhelming task which you won't be able to handle. So what mechanism will bring about the result you are awaiting? Bear in mind the better part of a year has passed and the index is moribund.

You frequently mention that you find it difficult to get on with what you want to do because of all the time taken up with your commitment to answering questions etc. on Templot Club but this is an environment created and maintained by you which you don't seem to be able to break out of. You also mention concerns for your health which is a far more serious matter.

So I suppose the question in my mind now is why do you resist all suggestions? Hopefully not as BruceNordstrand  said
Please do not take this the wrong way but I get the feeling that you do not want to "lose control" over anything & everything to do with Templot.
This could be a reason if you are afraid of Templot spiralling out of control.

Why do I keep raising these matters? Because I think the Index is a great idea and much better use should be made of it.
Because Templot is a great tool and much better use should be made of it.
I could go on but if I haven't got through by now what's the use.:(

Regards,

ken

PS.I thought long and hard before I sent this because I don't want you to feel as though I am harassing you, then I sent it anyway because I do think the idea has value.


posted: 26 Feb 2010 06:44

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Obviously anything which interferes with the operation of your business is a priority task, although why you find email to be so unreliable beats me. Has the client set up his system so tightly that virtually nothing can get through?
Hi Ken,

Many ISPs in North America block all email from a mail server or even an entire network at the first hint of any spam being sent from it. This can be a big problem for providers of shared hosting, where the activities of one rogue customer can upset the mail of all their other customers.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 Feb 2010 07:14

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Obviously anything which interferes with the operation of your business is a priority task, although why you find email to be so unreliable beats me. Has the client set up his system so tightly that virtually nothing can get through?
Hi Ken,

Many ISPs in North America block all email from a mail server or even an entire network at the first hint of any spam being sent from it. This can be a big problem for providers of shared hosting, where the activities of one rogue customer can upset the mail of all their other customers.

regards,

Martin.
Lo Martin,
A typical example of over-reaction.
Regards,

ken

posted: 26 Feb 2010 07:18

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
So I suppose the question in my mind now is why do you resist all suggestions?
Hi Ken,

I'm not resisting all suggestions. I'm very grateful for all feedback and think long and hard about about what folks say.

However, just because a suggestion is made, it doesn't automatically mean it is a good idea.

There is also a considerable technical dimension to most things. The Index site is not ready to roll because it needs more work on the format. I'm still undecided about whether content should be linked or embedded -- there are arguments both ways. Whether to include the Content/Explore tab is also a difficult decision. It's not the primary function, but it adds significantly to the usefulness of the site. On the other hand it also causes far more work than the A-Z tab when updating. There is also the problem of cross-domain cookies for the Yahoo content as few members will want to have 3rd party cookies enabled in their browser. I also have to think about copyright and similar issues -- I can see situations where someone might not want their message posted here to be permanently included in an index. So a mechanism to say so is needed.

Today I hope to get on with the notes for Derek's video. Whether you regard that as a good use of my time I wouldn't know, but as I've started it I intend to continue with it.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 Feb 2010 10:17

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Kenneth Beckett wrote:
So I suppose the question in my mind now is why do you resist all suggestions?
Hi Ken,

I'm not resisting all suggestions. I'm very grateful for all feedback and think long and hard about about what folks say.

However, just because a suggestion is made, it doesn't automatically mean it is a good idea.

There is also a considerable technical dimension to most things. The Index site is not ready to roll because it needs more work on the format. I'm still undecided about whether content should be linked or embedded -- there are arguments both ways. Whether to include the Content/Explore tab is also a difficult decision. It's not the primary function, but it adds significantly to the usefulness of the site. On the other hand it also causes far more work than the A-Z tab when updating. There is also the problem of cross-domain cookies for the Yahoo content as few members will want to have 3rd party cookies enabled in their browser. I also have to think about copyright and similar issues -- I can see situations where someone might not want their message posted here to be permanently included in an index. So a mechanism to say so is needed.

Today I hope to get on with the notes for Derek's video. Whether you regard that as a good use of my time I wouldn't know, but as I've started it I intend to continue with it.

regards,

Martin.
Hello Martin,
I am having great difficulty understanding this reply but I will try to respond in a logical manner.
I'm not resisting all suggestions. I'm very grateful for all feedback and think long and hard about about what folks say.
This obviously is a subjective opinion on my part based upon observation of various discussions I have come across on this site. Being subjective it can quite likely be wrong but I think not totally so.
However, just because a suggestion is made, it doesn't automatically mean it is a good idea.
This is of course a truism and an un-arguable statement but it doesn't mean much unless backed up by a logical answer to the proposition put forward.
There is also a considerable technical dimension to most things. The Index site is not ready to roll because it needs more work on the format. I'm still undecided about whether content should be linked or embedded -- there are arguments both ways. Whether to include the Content/Explore tab is also a difficult decision. It's not the primary function, but it adds significantly to the usefulness of the site. On the other hand it also causes far more work than the A-Z tab when updating. There is also the problem of cross-domain cookies for the Yahoo content as few members will want to have 3rd party cookies enabled in their browser. I also have to think about copyright and similar issues -- I can see situations where someone might not want their message posted here to be permanently included in an index. So a mechanism to say so is needed.
Where did all this come from? Your earlier request for contributions to the index dated 28.04.2009 mentioned none of this but rather implied that you were ready to roll. My suggestions were predicated on this implication plus the fact you indicated you would be updating the index with the useful index links Richard posted.


I will try to answer the items individually:-
There is also a considerable technical dimension to most things. The Index site is not ready to roll because it needs more work on the format. I'm still undecided about whether content should be linked or embedded -- there are arguments both ways.
I would think replicating the content would result in an enormous Index and achieve little additional benefit if any. KISS
Whether to include the Content/Explore tab is also a difficult decision. It's not the primary function, but it adds significantly to the usefulness of the site. On the other hand it also causes far more work than the A-Z tab when updating.
I think this one answers itself, define the purpose of the Index and then say to yourself why make the job more difficult to the extent that the additional work will probably cause the whole thing to be too much work. Net result Index falls into disuse – no Index. Remember KISS.
There is also the problem of cross-domain cookies for the Yahoo content as few members will want to have 3rd party cookies enabled in their browser.
Simple, no cookie no acess to Yahoo, their decision. How is this different from the results of searches now?
I also have to think about copyright and similar issues -- I can see situations where someone might not want their message posted here to be permanently included in an index. So a mechanism to say so is needed.
So it is all right to have their message sort of buried on the site but possible to be found during a search but not clearly addressed by an Index item. I know nothing about copyright law but this seems to be putting a fine point on the matter. Cases where their message is itself in breach of copyright I would think are already a problem.
Today I hope to get on with the notes for Derek's video. Whether you regard that as a good use of my time I wouldn't know, but as I've started it I intend to continue with it.
I don't know why you would say this, why should I care if you have decided this is a good use of your time?

At the end of all this I realise that you will not be taking up my suggestion and this is totally within your control but be aware that I do not believe your reasons stand up under scrutinity.

By the way I have this great idea, just kidding.

For me it is back to the video tutorials and copious note taking.:D


And a very good day to you,


ken


posted: 26 Feb 2010 11:30

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Where did all this come from? Your earlier request for contributions to the index dated 28.04.2009 mentioned none of this but rather implied that you were ready to roll. My suggestions were predicated on this implication plus the fact you indicated you would be updating the index with the useful index links Richard posted.
Hi Ken,

I can't give every single detail of every single thing every time. :)

I shall include Richard's links and any others posted now, using the existing Index format and just as soon as I can find a couple of hours free.

However, I am not yet ready to release an indexing utility program because I have not finalised the format of the Index. The last thing I want is to ask folks to help and then find that their time has been wasted.

28.04.2009 is less than 12 months ago, and in Templot terms that is quite recent. :)

I think this one answers itself, define the purpose of the Index and then say to yourself why make the job more difficult to the extent that the additional work will probably cause the whole thing to be too much work. Net result Index falls into disuse – no Index. Remember KISS.
Yes, but if you look at the Contents tab, you will see that it contains the very "How To..." section which Brian has been asking for. I'm not sure that many users would think to look instead under H for "How" when searching for such answers. There are also other useful headings on that tab. It may have to go, but not without some careful thought about the alternatives.

So it is all right to have their message sort of buried on the site but possible to be found during a search but not clearly addressed by an Index item.
Messages on Templot Club can be edited by the author at any time. Errors can be corrected, wording clarified, additional information added. If the message is linked in the Index, that is still the case. If it is embedded in the Index, the original message would be displayed there unchanged. On the other hand, if linked, an author may so edit a message that the indexing keywords would be no longer appropriate. Linking may also cause problems in some browsers, whereas embedded content would not. The Yahoo content is at present linked, but I think the only viable option for that will be embedded.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Feb 2010 04:46

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Kenneth Beckett wrote:
Where did all this come from? Your earlier request for contributions to the index dated 28.04.2009 mentioned none of this but rather implied that you were ready to roll. My suggestions were predicated on this implication plus the fact you indicated you would be updating the index with the useful index links Richard posted.
Hi Ken,

I can't give every single detail of every single thing every time. :)

I shall include Richard's links and any others posted now, using the existing Index format and just as soon as I can find a couple of hours free.

However, I am not yet ready to release an indexing utility program because I have not finalised the format of the Index. The last thing I want is to ask folks to help and then find that their time has been wasted.

28.04.2009 is less than 12 months ago, and in Templot terms that is quite recent. :)

I think this one answers itself, define the purpose of the Index and then say to yourself why make the job more difficult to the extent that the additional work will probably cause the whole thing to be too much work. Net result Index falls into disuse – no Index. Remember KISS.
Yes, but if you look at the Contents tab, you will see that it contains the very "How To..." section which Brian has been asking for. I'm not sure that many users would think to look instead under H for "How" when searching for such answers. There are also other useful headings on that tab. It may have to go, but not without some careful thought about the alternatives.

So it is all right to have their message sort of buried on the site but possible to be found during a search but not clearly addressed by an Index item.
Messages on Templot Club can be edited by the author at any time. Errors can be corrected, wording clarified, additional information added. If the message is linked in the Index, that is still the case. If it is embedded in the Index, the original message would be displayed there unchanged. On the other hand, if linked, an author may so edit a message that the indexing keywords would be no longer appropriate. Linking may also cause problems in some browsers, whereas embedded content would not. The Yahoo content is at present linked, but I think the only viable option for that will be embedded.

regards,

Martin.
Martin,
Thanks for your answer. I don't want to drag this out so I will let the matter drop at this stage with the comment that I cannot follow your logic at all.
One suggestion which I do not expect you to reply to is that you form a group of knowledgeable, trusted and reliable members with whom you can discuss future developments to assist you in resolving issues. A separate restricted forum would be good.
I strongly recommend that you put a bar on any contributions from Kenneth Beckett to those group discussions.:D

Regards,

ken

posted: 27 Feb 2010 07:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Kenneth Beckett wrote:
One suggestion which I do not expect you to reply to is that you form a group of knowledgeable, trusted and reliable members with whom you can discuss future developments to assist you in resolving issues. A separate restricted forum would be good.
I strongly recommend that you put a bar on any contributions from Kenneth Beckett to those group discussions.:D
Hi Ken,

I don't understand why you do not expect me to reply.

The answer is an absolute and unconditional no. This is the only* support forum for Templot users. Everyone is welcome to join, and all members are and will remain equal (including me).

Of course, I can't prevent others forming a separate group or forum if they wished to do so. But I would take no part in it if there was any restriction on membership.

Your contributions are always welcome here. :)

*Not strictly true of course -- there is also the Templot-sponsored forum area on RMweb at:

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/forum/77-templot/

and  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=64

which is mainly for intending Templot users.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 27 Feb 2010 10:33

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Kenneth Beckett wrote:
One suggestion which I do not expect you to reply to is that you form a group of knowledgeable, trusted and reliable members with whom you can discuss future developments to assist you in resolving issues. A separate restricted forum would be good.
I strongly recommend that you put a bar on any contributions from Kenneth Beckett to those group discussions.:D
Hello Martin,

I don't understand why you do not expect me to reply.
Now you ask neither do I. I suppose I was thinking I have taken up enough of your time recently.

The answer is an absolute and unconditional no. This is the only* support forum for Templot users. Everyone is welcome to join, and all members are and will remain equal (including me).
Now that's the kind of answer I like, uneqivocal and to the point. :)

Your contributions are always welcome here. :)
Hmm.

Regards,

ken


posted: 28 Feb 2010 20:45

from:

kenbec
 
Australia

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Martin Wynne wrote:
BruceNordstrand wrote:
Please do not take this the wrong way but I get the feeling that you do not want to "lose control" over anything & everything to do with Templot.
Hi Bruce,

Templot is a paid-for product, which means there are legal issues relating to product description. I can't allow anyone and everyone to make statements about it which appear to be part of the Templot web site.

Everyone is welcome to post whatever they wish here on Templot Club, as it is clearly a user forum and material appears with the sender's name prominently attached to it.

Anything else on the Templot web site has to remain under my control.

There is not too much work in compiling the index, once I get the format finalised and steady supply of links. I have a similar A-Z Index running for RMweb and there is a team of volunteers feeding me files to include. See:

  http://85a.co.uk/rmweb_indexers_forum/

  http://85a.co.uk/rmweb_index/

(p.s. Many pages on that index have images missing -- RMweb has just moved to Ohio and is not yet fully restored.)

The same thing can work here on Templot Club, once I have the index format and utility programs finalised. It's made a bit more complicated by the need to include stuff from Yahoo, and the cross-domain cookies.

It will all come right in the end. :)

regards,

Martin.
Hello Martin,
Just to correct an impression.

Templot is a paid-for product, which means there are legal issues relating to product description. I can't allow anyone and everyone to make statements about it which appear to be part of the Templot web site. Everyone is welcome to post whatever they wish here on Templot Club, as it is clearly a user forum and material appears with the sender's name prominently attached to it. Anything else on the Templot web site has to remain under my control.
I think your answer misses the point. We are talking about an internal index of the CONTENTS of Templot here, on Templot Club, and not a TV advertisment extolling its virtues.:)

Just thought I would put the matter in perspective.

Don't worry I have been up since 03.00hrs and your answer has been niggling at me since I originally read it.

So has this one.

The answer is an absolute and unconditional no. This is the only* support forum for Templot users. Everyone is welcome to join, and all members are and will remain equal (including me).

All members are not equal when one has the right to make all decisions. The closest I can come to this organisation is a Benovelent Dictatorship.:)

Sorry I can't help myself.:D

Regards,

ken





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