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topic: 1477Restoring the last closing position at start-up
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posted: 14 May 2011 11:56

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

We have discussed at length in this forum the issue of "user preferences" "Restoring shapes" and all the rest of it.
I have had a thought - which I am sure is completely unhelpful at this late stage - but I will make it anyway for what it is worth....

Would it be possible, to create a "Project" file at close (or during a session)? This would create and save its own .box, .bgs, etc and (say) a .tps (templot project settings) file. This latter could include all the current variables:- colours, pad (including zoom and position), generator and print etc settings. At start-up - or by loading a "project", the settings file would be loaded, the internal variables copied over, the .box, .bgs, etc loaded, the screen re-drawn using the newly-loaded settings, and hey presto - there you have it - a screen looking exactly like what you saw when you last closed it down. Even better, if you just want to print-out a Template from an existing box file, you could just load the "Project" and hit print - WITHOUT having to go through endless menus to de-select "Radial end marks" "Centre line" Timber Numbering" etc as you (well me at any rate) have to do currently.

Even better, if I wanted to distinguish between say, a "development" and "Current working" version of my project, I could create project files with different screen colours. When I then re-load them, I know immediately which one I am working with and what I should / should not do with it!

A further advantage would be that it would not need to replace what already exists - people who just want to work with a .box file only could do so - Templot then simply reverting to its current defaults.

But there is a massive downside - all those who moan endlessly about Templot's "user interface" would be silenced forever and the poor souls would have to find another hapless victim to moan at:-)

What do you think - or am I already too late!!

Best Wishes, an happy coding!

Howard

posted: 14 May 2011 13:34

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
Would it be possible, to create a "Project" file at close (or during a session)? This would create and save its own .box, .bgs, etc and (say) a .tps (templot project settings) file. This latter could include all the current variables:- colours, pad (including zoom and position), generator and print etc settings. At start-up - or by loading a "project", the settings file would be loaded, the internal variables copied over, the .box, .bgs, etc loaded, the screen re-drawn using the newly-loaded settings, and hey presto - there you have it - a screen looking exactly like what you saw when you last closed it down. Even better, if you just want to print-out a Template from an existing box file, you could just load the "Project" and hit print - WITHOUT having to go through endless menus to de-select "Radial end marks" "Centre line" Timber Numbering" etc as you (well me at any rate) have to do currently.
Hi Howard,

This mechanism is mostly already implemented in the next Pug. :)

See:

message 4582

and this lengthy topic (3 pages):

topic 752

You seem to be saying that you want to include a .box file name and/or .bgs file name in the user preferences and load them automatically if you load the preferences file?

It needs some thinking about, because Templot creates a NEW file every time you save a .box file. The one linked in the preferences could be out-of-date, and the option to reload the last session on startup is already in the preferences anyway. But loading a specified .bgs file is a good idea -- thanks.  :thumb:

Please note that there are hundreds of UI settings in Templot -- some very obscure (did anyone ever change the font colour on the "Martin's Chat Box" window? :)). It's quite time-consuming to add each one to the user preferences, so I can't possibly do everything straight off. I add them as I find myself working on them, and the obvious ones. I can add more in each subsequent Pug. If you have specific requests, please post them in the above topic.

I would add that despite having this functionality working in my development version, I hardly ever use it myself. Perhaps all the defaults match my personal preferences? :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 14 May 2011 19:00

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Many thanks for your reply Martin, and yes, I read that quite carefully at the time, but I think I am suggesting a mechanism to make better use of the facility which it offers, And it is not too easy to explain!

What I am envisaging is, an ADDITIONAL "project" file which would be a superset of the prefs file and would include the .box and bgs etc files (by reference). and each time you saved your "Project" a new .box, .bgs AND prefs file would be created reflecting exactly the state of play at that moment. And I am particularly thinking of colour scheme, pad (including label positions etc), Generator, and print settings.

The consequence of this would be that there would be a large number of different prefs files, each associated with a different project (or version of the same project). In terms of keeping the .box "current", I am suggesting that each time the "project" is saved, a new box (+prefs,bgs etc) is created. (see below)

Let me try talking through how it would work as a user:-

I have created a set of templates, loaded some images and created a few shapes etc., for my new layout. I have set the printer to print A4 pages in colour, with timber numbering "off" (lets say) but now it is tea time and I need the machine for something else. I select a Menu Item called "Save Project", A SaveFile dialogue opens and I name my project Town Central V1_0. Templot creates a .box, .bgs and a prefs file using names of its choosing (they are invisible to me).

After tea, I open up Templot, and it asks me if I want the previous position, When I click "yes", it loads my PROJECT file, including the prefs box, bgs previously created, and restores everything (name labels, zoom, screen position, printer settings, group selection names etc etc as they were before. I now do a bit more, and, when I click "print" all my previous print, generator and pad settings are already selected, meaning that I do not have to make any new selections (AND it will remember that I do not need to calibrate my printer OR it will have automatically loaded the calibration file I used previously!!). At bed time, I want to close my machine down, so I click on Save Project again and it asks me if I want to over-write the previous version. If I click "yes" (and I think I hear you tut-tutting here!!) it deletes the previously created .box, bgs, prefs and saves new versions reflecting current settings. If I click "no", it prompts me to provide a new file name and I name it "Town Central V1_1, and it creates new prefs, box, bgs etc (if these have changed) and saves all in a new Project file. Now I have access to either project version in the future. If I were to reload version 1_0, the screen would appear as it did when I saved that version, the printer, generator and pad settings similarly. Thus, if between V1_0 and V1_1 I had, say changed the pad zoom, and paper size, and grid size, if I reloaded V1_1, these would revert to how they were at the time I saved that project.

Of course, in between, Templot will be doing its Autosave BUT instead of saving just the .box, it would save a Project file INCLUDING a box (and prefs, bgs etc) so that, if my machine has a power out, when I restart, I see the screen EXACTLY as it was before, and if I click print, the printer settings, gererator setting etc would be as they were at the time of the crash rather than Templot's - or even my own - defaults.

Inevitably, there are things to think about in terms of implementation - what if someone manually deleted a .box belonging to a project causing a load to fail etc. Equally, there would need to be a "manage projects" function so that if you removed a project file, the associated box, bgs etc files would be deleted (or a Registry reference would be needed)

But I can't see any show stoppers.

I fully take you point about the number of internal variables and hence me pointing to pad, generator, print and colour schemes - plus of course, those I implicitly assume but which you need to second guess:-) but there is opportunity to develop these over time.

To be honest, like you, I can't see myself using the prefs facility either - what I am suggesting however, would mean that I would be using it every time I loaded a project!! And, different projects would automatically have "the right" prefs appropriate to their need.

Hope that is clearer!

Many thanks for listening,

Howard

posted: 15 May 2011 10:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard,

Thanks for explaining this in detail.

It's a tall order. It needs a lot of thinking about and a lot of work to implement. The problem is that you can't restore the previous closing position simply by reloading existing files. There is a lot of stuff in the program which at present is always lost on closing, and would all have to be saved in some way.

For example, individual templates may have been generated or rebuilt using different generator settings from those currently in force. To be sure of recreating the previous session, it would be necessary to have a separate set of generator settings saved in the .box file with every individual template. That then introduces a lot of new logic to decide when and how those settings get updated and/or used instead of the current settings. Likewise other template settings which aren't currently included in the .box file such as membership of a group.

Stuff can always be added to the .box files, but you have to work out how it gets used and updated, and what happens when .box files are shared by different users -- possibly not using the same Templot version. It can get messy.

Furthermore, there is a whole lot of transient data within the program which would need saving. For example the contents of the parking bay, the roll-back registers, etc.

And in the next Pug there is also the Sketchboard file to be saved and restored, in addition to .box and .bgs files.

All in all this would be a big project. That's not necessarily an argument against it, but we would need to be sure that the results would justify the work involved. I'm not sure that it really adds enough functionality over the present arrangements to say that.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2011 11:20

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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hi Martin,

Many thanks again. And I was pretty sure it would not be easy! Very sorry if my post sounded more than a bit patronising - I just re-read it and it sounded pretty patronising to me:-( [Memo to self: must make better use of preview button.]

My hope from introducing the idea of a "project" file was that it could hold a lot of the currently volatile data and thus minimise the need for fiddling with the format of box files to maintain compatibility, but then of course, to a user, every thing looks easy to do as we don't understand what needs to go on under the bonnet, and clearly, it is not as simple as the set of "data" variables and a set of "environment" variables in my mind!

As you say, sorting what would be really helpful from the merely nice to have would be difficult and different users might have different needs. As one example, having "permanent" groups of templates would which could be selected at will from session to session would (for me) be really helpful - but then again, my need might decline when irregular diamonds are implemented(!)

But perhaps I can share the recent experiences which have driven my thinking as it might help with the "would it be worth it" consideration. Just lately, with the formation of a local S4 soc AG, I have been having face to face conversations with a few of "those people" who moan about "how user-unfriendly Templot is" and I have been thinking hard about what it is that bothers them and trying to understand how that might be changed.

My observation is that people build up massive prejudice from the SECOND time they open up a programme - because that is the point when their implicit expectations of functionality are tested - they are used to a programme "remembering" things they did last time and in their minds, Templot falls down at that point ("every time I open it is like the first time all over again - is it stupid?"). My feeling is that such implicit expectations are extremely strongly held and emanate from using software from we-know-where - this is the root of the "not like Windows" comments and it is nothing to do with Windows at all.

My fear is that a lots of moans originate from people who seem never to have opened Templot for a "third" time - and certainly from people who have never got to the clever bits. Because of this, they have no ability to trade off what I might see as a minor irritant against the massive power at their disposal - because they have experience only of the former.

Those same people are amazed when I show them some of the stuff I have created - they them proclaim me as a genius with the patience of a saint - well, there are two further misconceptions!

But I am not thinking about any of this as a way to hold up the next PUG - I am merely looking to fill your empty days AFTER that has satiated your already appreciative, but still hungry, users!!

Very Best Wishes,

Howard.

posted: 15 May 2011 12:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Howard,

Thanks for that -- I didn't find your previous message patronising at all. :)
 
I have been having face to face conversations with a few of those who moan about "how user-unfriendly Templot is" and I have been thinking hard about what it is that bothers them and trying to understand how that might be changed.
I'm sure the major problem there is that new users start with a 10-year-old version Templot -- version 074b.

091c is very much easier to use and more user-friendly. The difficulty is that if they start off with 091c most of the Templot Companion web site and tutorials won't match, which would make a disastrous start for a new user trying to learn the program.

The situation is fully explained in my order confirmation email, but I've come to the conclusion that hardly anyone actually reads it.

I'm between a rock and a hard place on this. 074b = unfriendly to use. 091c = tutorials don't match. The problem is entirely of my own making, and as time goes on it gets worse. :(

I have to get the next Pug finished as soon as possible so that I can then find the massive amount of time needed to rewrite the entire web site. Rewriting the tutorials means replacing several hundred screenshots, and until the next Pug is finished I can't make replacement screenshots which are up-to-date. I also urgently need some feedback on the new "Quick-Mode" feature which has been introduced mainly for beginners, but may still need some changes.

Howard, the next time someone says Templot is unfriendly, please ask them which version they are using, and if they have tried 091c. Explain the above difficulties, and point out that you can easily have both 074b and 091c on your computer at the same time, and use whichever you prefer at any time. Thanks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 May 2011 15:31

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I'm sure the major problem there is that new users start with a 10-year-old version Templot -- version 074b.

091c is very much easier to use and more user-friendly. The difficulty is that if they start off with 091c most of the Templot Companion web site and tutorials won't match, which would make a disastrous start for a new user trying to learn the program.

The situation is fully explained in my order confirmation email, but I've come to the conclusion that hardly anyone actually reads it.

I'm between a rock and a hard place on this. 074b = unfriendly to use. 091c = tutorials don't match. The problem is entirely of my own making, and as time goes on it gets worse. :(

Hi Martin,

Although I’ve only been using Templot for the past 14 months and cannot speak with the same authority as those who have used the program for many years, I have however, learned a great deal about track-work design from both the program and from information gained through the Templot club.
I have also got enjoyment out of using Templot and has given me, one might almost say, a new lease on life in my retirement.


I think one of the difficult things you face in today’s culture is, that most people expect to simply push a few buttons and keys, and out will pop the perfect solution to their requirement. But as we all know, life and reality are not like that, and one has to work at things and often show a little patience to get what is required.

Having said all that, now to my point, as you may be aware, I have tried to write one or two tutorial help instructions for particular track formations, and other members have done the same from time to time.
The problem with these written articles is that they tend to lie buried and lost in the multitude of postings and listings and require some effort in searching for them when required, assuming that one can find the correct combination of words to search for them.


My suggestion here is, that you could provide an area on the Templot club web site, something like the Image gallery, but for tutorial instruction and help guides that members could up load for easy and direct access to others.

Now as to  usable formats that could be up loaded, the following would be useful:

1. Plain Text format, such as Notepad
2. PDF format
3. Word format (if I dare suggest this, but remember an awful lot of people use this format)
4. Any others that may come to mind


I know this will not be the real solution to you dilemma, but it could help save you having to reply constantly to people telling them the posting to look for in order to find the help information.

In addition, it may help enthuse other members to write such instruction and help guides for complex formations, given their experience and greater understanding of Templot, and thereby perhaps lighten your work load a little in the future.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 16 May 2011 17:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Nicholls wrote:
My suggestion here is, that you could provide an area on the Templot club web site, something like the Image gallery, but for tutorial instruction and help guides that members could up load for easy and direct access to others.

Now as to  usable formats that could be up loaded, the following would be useful:

1. Plain Text format, such as Notepad
2. PDF format
3. Word format (if I dare suggest this, but remember an awful lot of people use this format)
4. Any others that may come to mind
Hi Brian,

Thanks for that. I have created a new forum area, Tips and tutorials:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_forum.php?id=19

If you create a new topic for each tutorial and give it an appropriate subject line, it should be easier for members to find what they are looking for within a dedicated forum.

Please post them in PDF format if possible.

Word files are not really suitable for web use. They are massively inflated containing uncompressed bitmap images. Which is fine on your own computer, but on the web they cause space and bandwidth issues, and are a damn nuisance to download and display.

I don't use Word, but I assume it's easy enough to print from Word to a PDF generator such as Win2PDF?

Remember to update your emails, see:

 topic 1481

Thanks again,

regards,

Martin.


posted: 16 May 2011 18:56

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:

Howard, the next time someone says Templot is unfriendly, please ask them which version they are using, and if they have tried 091c. Explain the above difficulties, and point out that you can easily have both 074b and 091c on your computer at the same time, and use whichever you prefer at any time. Thanks.



Thanks for this Martin, and needless to say, I failed to ask that question, and being so used to 091c. I tend to forget about this issue. Some members of our group have asked for a little demo, so that presents an opportunity for some diagnosis.
I'll report back in due course.

Best Wishes,

Howard



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