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1st message | this message only posted: 11 Sep 2007 20:56
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Roderic Cameron
Teignmouth, Devon

 

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Hi

I'm putting the finishing touches to a track plan (P4, 60ft plain track rail length) and find I want to move some of the rail joint locations (and the sleeper spacings that go with that).  There are probably two aspects to this:

1) Can you move a rail joint to (say) a peg position so that the first whole track panel starts from that point?;  and

2) In cases where a length of plain track is represented by more than one template, can you configure the panels/rail joints so that they progress seamlessly from one template to another? 

In practice when I get round to construction I could deal with all of this then, but it would be nice to sort it out in Templot if it's possible.

TIA

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2nd message | this message only posted: 11 Sep 2007 21:22
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Roderic Cameron wrote: 1) Can you move a rail joint to (say) a peg position so that the first whole track panel starts from that point?;  and

2) In cases where a length of plain track is represented by more than one template, can you configure the panels/rail joints so that they progress seamlessly from one template to another?
Hi Rod,

Yes and yes. :)

The good news: go to  http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_1.htm

Scroll down and click the info for roll rails and sleepers and peg on rail joints functions.

The even better news: go to  http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_2.htm

Scroll down and click the info for new roll rails functions for details about flowing rail joints and sleeper spacings across template boundaries.

I promised a video about all this as a follow up to the "curvy obstructions" video. Sorry about the delay. It's on the list. :( Write again if you need more detailed instructions.

regards,

Martin.


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3rd message | this message only posted: 11 Sep 2007 21:35
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Roderic Cameron
Teignmouth, Devon

 

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Excellent, thanks Martin :D.  First job then is to upgrade from 79e!
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4th message | this message only posted: 12 Sep 2007 00:59
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Roderic Cameron
Teignmouth, Devon

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: The even better news: go to  http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_2.htm


That new roll rails function is really very good (once I got clear in my head that the reference to ctrl-0 or ctrl-1 refers to the background and you must always have ctrl-1 at the boundary end of the current!) :D
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5th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 11:42
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin and folks

I'm having a go at tidying up sleepers and rail lengths. Is this the up-to-date way of doing this? I'm getting some results but wonder if there's a simpler approach now that so many things are easier than formerly.
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: I'm having a go at tidying up sleepers and rail lengths. Is this the up-to-date way of doing this? I'm getting some results but wonder if there's a simpler approach now that so many things are easier than formerly.Hi Julian,

That's all still the same. I don't remember making any changes, but this topic is 13 years old, so it's possible something has changed. :?

But those old web pages are looking very poorly -- images missing and links not working. I will try to get them up to date and in the Companion.

Also I may have made a Jing video. That will take some finding, and will need converting to FBR because few browsers now support SWF Flash. I will see what I can find.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 14:48
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Martin Wynne
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p.s. Julian,

I've just remembered that you now need to change this setting to sleepered when rolling rails to flow the timbering:



Otherwise the rolled-in sleepers will be missing.

cheers,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 15:56
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Thanks again Martin! While you're doing that I'll explain....I think I ought to know what the rule or practical consideration is regarding rail joints at the exit of turnouts or diamonds. Is there normally a joint within a few sleepers, or can the next rail joint be up to 60 feet away from the V? I reckon I need to get the rails right first, and then arrange the sleepers so that there isn't one under a joint. I will post a screenshot of the length that is causing me to ask this.
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9th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 16:03
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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10th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 18:24
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Phil O
Plymouth, United Kingdom



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Hi Julian

Common crossings are normally a self contained lump, which are attached to the closure rails at one end plain rail at the other. Obviously some of the exceptions are where other switches and crossings come into play in complex formations. The exact number a common crossing covers is determined by its crossing angle. Templot shows you where the joints are.


HTH.

Phil.
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11th message | this message only posted: 6 Jul 2020 21:12
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: I think I ought to know what the rule or practical consideration is regarding rail joints at the exit of turnouts or diamonds. Is there normally a joint within a few sleepers, or can the next rail joint be up to 60 feet away from the V?Hi Julian,

The point and splice rails comprising a vee are made to standard lengths in the crossing shop. What those lengths are will vary with different prototypes and crossing angles, so to be sure you have the joints in exactly the right place you would need to refer to the pointwork drawings for your prototype railway company.

However, we think your track plan was renewed some time after grouping, so it is very likely, but not certain, that it was using standard REA components by the 1950s.

Templot defaults to the REA standard dimensions, and you can see where the vee joint should be on the templates -- the TVJP peg position at CTRL-6 (Turnout-side Vee Joint Position). Likewise MVJP at CTRL-8 on the main-side.

Generally it would be unusual for the vee rails to be any longer than the standard size, but often they might be shortened to fit in complex pointwork, as Phil explained.

However, if the vee in question in your screenshot was created as part of the make diamond-crossing at intersection function, Templot stops the diagonal-side exit short of the TVJP to ensure greater accuracy in matching the underlying curves. It is then your job to re-instate the rail joint at the marked location by rolling the rails on the underlying template to re-align the joint. See the second half of this video:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

Here's the relevant frame from it:



To customize the vee rails to some other length, go to real > V-crossing options > customize V-crossing > vee rail... menu item. The length is determined by setting the number of timbers spanned and the spacings between them.

cheers,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 10:09
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Thank you Martin and Phil - that clarifies things.  Just to be clear - I'm not wanting to get everything exactly "right" - for a start there won't be enough photos - rather, I'm wanting to get it so it "looks right", as in "close enough".  Or put another way, I don't want it to look glaringly "wrong".
To go back to the first question yesterday, I think I'm getting the hang of it.



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13th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 15:11
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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This (next) is what the same bit of track looks like now. I needed to roll the second to top line so that the sleepers were staggered. I think that really I needed to roll the sleepers, not the rails! So I now have an extra rail joint right next to the proper one (which, I think, is where the flag type sign is) that I shall ignore, and have put a timber under it, as altering the V rail length is quite a bit of faff. I'm not sure whether this interlacing would be prototypical in the '50s or whether timbers supporting both tracks would be used for the first 15 or so sleepers.
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: This (next) is what the same bit of track looks like now. I needed to roll the second to top line so that the sleepers were staggered. I think that really I needed to roll the sleepers, not the rails! So I now have an extra rail joint right next to the proper one that I shall ignore, and have put a timber under it, as altering the V rail length is quite a bit of faff. I'm not sure whether this interlacing would be prototypical in the '50s or whether timbers supporting both tracks would be used for the first 15 or so sleepers.Hi Julian,

Don't roll the rails, or the rail joints will be wrong. What you need to do is to shove the sleepers (on both tracks) so that they interleave nicely.

Long timbers are expensive, they are not usually used unless necessary.

What is the crossing angle of the turnout on the left? It seems unlikely that such a long high-speed turnout would be used on the approach to a terminus. As I've mentioned, the marked position of the switch toes on the historic OS maps can usually be relied on. But not the position of the V-crossings, which just happen to be where the curves crossed when the mapmaker drew the rails. It takes only a small error for them to be a long way out.

cheers,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 15:44
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin
Ahh!  Is there a way of rolling all the sleepers at once?

The turnout is on this photo.  It's 1:26.  It fitted nicely on the map when I put in 30ft straight switch, rather than an F length RAE switch.  I'm reluctant to alter it as Chris Gough is making me a jig for all the Vs as per his article in the last Snooze!  Unless you say it is terrible...

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17th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 15:47
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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This is how it is on the map.

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Julian Roberts
 

 

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19th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 16:10
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Here is a photo I was sent yesterday showing the long turnout
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Martin Wynne
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Julian Roberts wrote: The turnout is on this photo.  It's 1:26.


Hi Julian,

There is no way that is 1:26 . :shock:

The REA designs go only as far as 1:20, and it's unlikely even one of those would be at the far end of a Scottish line. Only the SR experimented with longer V-crossings, for use on their fast main lines.

Clearly the map doesn't match the photo. It may be from a much earlier survey.

Looking at the photo, the switch toe appears to be about the same distance from the camera as the middle of the tandem. The map has it further back.

You have it as a RH turnout. Looking at the photo I think it's more likely LH, with the main-road curve on the inside. The turnout-road appears to flatten between the approach and exit curves. My best guess to match the photo is an E-16 LH:



The LMS standard long sizes show only E-12, E-16, F-20. That doesn't rule out a special, but the standard sizes are always more likely, especially for a stand-alone turnout.

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne
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p.s. Julian,

Just noticed that the map has the bracket signal post (S.P) on the wrong side of the switch toe mark, so clearly something is wrong -- the toe mark is in the wrong place.

Martin.

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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Arghh, well thank you for your detective work Martin. I was just going to write that the SP sign is by the switch mark...

I'll have a play on Templot later.  Just to go back to a previous conversation: shoving timbers as a group - is that possible, or do they have to be done one by one?
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Martin Wynne
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Julian Roberts wrote: Just to go back to a previous conversation: shoving timbers as a group - is that possible, or do they have to be done one by one?Hi Julian,

You can't shove timbers as a group. That's not a very prototypical thing to do. You could split the timbering and rails onto separate partial templates, if you really needed to do that. Bear in mind that the sleeper spacings close up towards the rail joints, so you shouldn't move them wholesale without moving the rails too. Just shove individually as needed. Use the roll rails function to move everything and keep the sleepers in sync with joints.

Have a look at the track in the diesel loco picture you posted. In the foreground track you can see the closed up sleepers at the rail joint, and count a standard 24 sleepers/60ft length back to the vee rail joint.

On the other track, under the loco, the rail joint is about 8 sleepers closer to the vee -- so this is a shorter non-standard rail length. It's likely that the sleepers have all been shoved about to interleave with the foreground ones, but maintaining the closed up spacing at the joints at each end.

cheers,

Martin.

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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin and folks

I've seen here that arranging sleepering is not always matter of right and wrong, and varied with location, conditions, etc. So this is to ask whether this looks OK

Above first picture is how Templot arranges the sleepers, second is how I've interleaved them. It didn't seem possible to interleave them next to the joint without the gap being extended, thus I think that would be wrong? Does this look reasonable?

Please ignore the third picture, I would delete it if I could see how.
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Phil O
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Julian

I would be tempted to move the first sleeper in the lower track and centralise it between the two in the upper track. It will make packing the it a little easier.

Phil.
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Hi Julian,

Here is a possible timbering layout. I have no idea whether it is right or wrong, the only way to know that is to go back to the 1950s and take measurements and photos.



There is no harm in using long timbers past the vee joints, but not if they would need to be longer than 15ft, which is the longest stock size, longer timbers are ordered as specials*. And a 15ft timber is more expensive than two ordinary sleepers, so used only if the gang happen to have such serviceable used long timbers to hand. It is also possible for two timbers to spliced together on-site to make a longer one.

Timbers are wider than sleepers, so there is greater scope for moving chairs off-centre, if needed to make space for the fishplates at rail joints.

Here I have changed the A1 sleeper to a 9ft-6in timber. The longest special crossing chair for an REA 1:16 crossing is the H chair, so A1 would be carrying two bridge chairs for the middle rails.

For the outer track I rolled the timbers to interleave, and then skewed the first sleeper at A to better support the outer rail.

We know that the inner track is a standard 60ft rail length. It's very likely therefore that it is a standard track panel, with the joints opposite one another.

But the outer track is a shorter length, so there is no reason for both rails to be the same length. Here I used a longer outer rail**, moving the joint to B, where it is better supported. And allowing more freedom in positioning the sleepers at A.

Moving the joint in Templot involves some faffing about with partial templates. I suspect most users would simply mark up the printed template. Templot is an aid to building the track, it's not trying to produce a perfect drawing of the finished track. However I will look at adding some new functions to change the positions of rail joints.

first picture is how Templot arranges the sleepersI try to discourage this line of thinking. I see it often on RMweb and elsewhere. Templot is merely a tool. It does only what you make it do. If someone questioned the position of a screw in your baseboard construction, you wouldn't say "that's where the screwdriver put it". :)

*apart from 20ft (or 19ft-6in) which are stocked to reach across double track in crossovers (at 6ft way).

**providing it is not longer than 60ft.

cheers,

Martin.

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Hi Martin and Phil

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply Martin. A lot to digest there. I am thinking it's easier to sort out sleeper odds and ends at this stage than to be thinking it out with scraps of plastic and copper clad when actually laying the sleepers. But making partial templates etc is probably more than I would bother with when a pencil mark will do. For me, to know from you that a long timber if not more than 15 ft is OK the other side of the rail joint is good enough.

I mentioned that Templot arranged the sleepers as I could assume from it that the spacing around the joint is correct, even though I'd arranged one track to be according to its radius 25 and the other 24 sleepers per panel. Although obviously overlapping and needing corrected from that point of view.

"For the outer track I rolled the timbers to interleave" - I assume you mean you shoved them all one by one (prototypically:D), as per your reply about that yesterday! - no need to confirm if so. Thanks again and to Phil, a lot of possibilities you've suggested there.
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Martin Wynne
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Julian Roberts wrote: "For the outer track I rolled the timbers to interleave" - I assume you mean you shoved them all one by one (prototypically:D), as per your reply about that yesterday! - no need to confirm if soHi Julian,

No, I used the roll rails function. There are 25 sleepers per 60ft in the default spacing, which I didn't bother to change. I mentioned that the outer track is 8 sleepers short of a full length, so I rolled in 17 sleepers and moved them along a bit to interleave with the inner track. Of course that still needs a bit of shoving at each end, but no need to shove most of them. The trick is to swap them end-for-end (facing-trailing) if needed before you start.

As I mentioned, Templot is a tool. You use whichever bit of it does the job. In this case roll rails, but that doesn't mean it would be the way to go in every case. It wouldn't work for a full 60ft rail, for example.

cheers,

Martin.

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Hi Julian,

I'm making some relevant changes in the next program update, see:

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3718&forum_id=1

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Julian Roberts wrote: I'm having a go at tidying up sleepers and rail lengths. Is this the up-to-date way of doing this? I'm getting some results but wonder if there's a simpler approach now that so many things are easier than formerly.Hi Julian,

That's all still the same. I don't remember making any changes, but this topic is 13 years old, so it's possible something has changed. :?

But those old web pages are looking very poorly -- images missing and links not working. I will try to get them up to date and in the Companion.

Also I may have made a Jing video. That will take some finding, and will need converting to FBR because few browsers now support SWF Flash. I will see what I can find.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin 
It's less than 4 days ago you wrote this about the roll rails function and the subject of this thread, but it seems ages ago and is already a long way back, so I'm just reminding you about it while you're delving into the past! (regarding your most recent message)

I was wondering why i couldn't see any joints on stock rails around the V but assumed it was my lack of understanding of both Templot and the prototype.

If  I was seeing it correctly, on the long turnout  that I've now discarded there were no joints between the beginning and ends of the closure rails even though it was 97 sleepers long, nor on the stock rails. But maybe that's because it was so unprototypical?

Thank you for your constant patience!



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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Julian Roberts wrote:If I was seeing it correctly, on the long turnout  that I've now discarded there were no joints between the beginning and ends of the closure rails even though it was 97 sleepers long, nor on the stock rails. But maybe that's because it was so unprototypical?Hi Julian,

Yes. Templot contains only stuff for which I have some prototype information. Even if I know a joint must be present somewhere (unless the rail has been welded), I can't program it if I don't know where it should be.

There is no REA standard information for joints in closure rails between the heel of the switch and the front of the wing rails. Or in stock rails beyond the heel of the switch. Switches and crossings are treated as separate entities -- in linking them together each railway company does its own thing. That's why we find the differences in lead lengths shown for different companies.

Even if I did know where the joints should be, they can't be modelled to scale in 00, EM, 0-MF, etc., because reducing the gauge also reduces the lead length. So the information is only usable in P4, S7, etc.

Up to D-12 there is no joint needed in the closure rails (assuming 60ft rails), which covers the majority of modelled turnouts.

For the stock rails, no additional joint is needed up to C-9 (assuming 60ft rails).

Beyond that it would be for the prototype company and/or the gang on site to follow their usual practice. That would depend on their standard rail length, and other factors. Bear in mind that where there is a joint it is normal practice to close-up the timber spacing on each side, so inserting a joint will also require some timber shoving. Also the timbers each side would often carry the heavier joint chairs (now available in 4mm from C&L).

In program update 227a shortly you will be able to move the stock rail joint back to 60ft (or less) from the switch, but it will still be necessary to shove the timbers for it.

The alternative to all this would be to build up a turnout template manually from partial templates. You can then have rail joints and other details exactly where you want them for any given prototype turnout. But it would be a massive task to do an entire track plan that way, and most folks won't have sufficient prototype data anyway.

What most users do is:

1. print a template

2. mark it up with any additional detail needed.

cheers,

Martin.

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