Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 30 Dec 2011 14:23 from: Richard_Jones
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Does anyone have any views on rivet sizes for rivet and Ply built track? EMGS offer both 2mm and 2.5mm rivets - whilst if you work in EM (like me), you need the 2.5mm rivets on the pre-punched plain sleepers, is there any reason why you shouldn't use the 2mm rivets on pointwork where you can make certain it is directly under the rail? Presumably this would also be easier for fitting cosmetic chairs? I have a few packs of the original Studiolith tinned steel rivets, if anyone want them bets wishes for Christmas and the New Year Richard |
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posted: 30 Dec 2011 15:08 from: Geoff Cook
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Richard_Jones wrote: Does anyone have any views on rivet sizes for rivet and Ply built track?Richard I have always used the 2mm rivets for EM pointwork they work fine just drill the hole in the ply timbers central to the rail, and as you say it makes the fitting of the cosmetic chairs that much easier I have also used them for the construction of plain track although this does require you to drill plain sleepers rather than use the punched variety Geoff Cook |
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posted: 30 Dec 2011 20:58 from: geoff click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
I use the EMGS 2mm copper rivets in a limited number of key places in pointwork. Despite accurate marking-out sometimes the holes aren't quite spot on. Hence some rivets fail to sit perfectly under the rail. When I come to fit cosmetic chairs I find that as well as removing some plastic from the inside of the chair it helps to pare away some of the exposed rivet with a scalpel. Geoff Geoff Cook wrote: Richard_Jones wrote:Does anyone have any views on rivet sizes for rivet and Ply built track?Richard |
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posted: 30 Dec 2011 21:55 from: Martin Wynne
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geoff wrote: I use the EMGS 2mm copper rivets in a limited number of key places in pointwork. Despite accurate marking-out sometimes the holes aren't quite spot on. Hence some rivets fail to sit perfectly under the rail.Hi Geoff, Templot can mark the rivet hole centres for you.  See: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_printing.htm Scroll down to Handy Hints at the bottom. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 30 Dec 2011 23:08 from: Richard_Jones
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Martin Wynne wroteHi Martin, I'll try that - as you can see from below - "I've started, so I will finish" (just don't hold your breath!) best wishes Richard 1763_301806_140000000.jpg  |
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posted: 31 Dec 2011 11:22 from: geoff click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin, Thank you. Templot never fails to amaze. I didn't know that trick. I shall be spared the tedium of using the RULER function to get rivet positions. Geoff Martin Wynne wrote: geoff wrote:I use the EMGS 2mm copper rivets in a limited number of key places in pointwork. Despite accurate marking-out sometimes the holes aren't quite spot on. Hence some rivets fail to sit perfectly under the rail.Hi Geoff, |
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posted: 31 Dec 2011 17:04 from: Tony W
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Hi Richard. Richard_Jones wrote: Does anyone have any views on rivet sizes for rivet and Ply built track?As I understand it, the reason for the 2.5mm track rivets is historical and enabled EM track to be constructed using sleepers pre-punched at 19mm centres for P4 track which were then readily available. There is certainly no reason not to use 2mm track rivets for P&C for the reasons you state. I have built track in both P4 and EM gauges over the years and use mostly the 2mm variety for both. This does mean punching any sleepers I need from plain sleeper strip. I find the 2.5mm rivets useful occasionally around the crossing area when there are two rails very close together and it is not possible to set two smaller rivets side by side easily and use one large one instead. Copper and brass rivets are fine for this work and both solder easily. The best thing you can do with the steel ones is throw them away I am afraid. Early experience with these tinned steel rivets was pretty disasterous. The steel surface under the tinning was not always very clean and it was found that the tinning would part company with the rivet surface after a few years. Trying to then clean the rivet surface prior to resoldering is not the easiest of tasks at the best of times. They are also prone to go rusty if an acidic flux is used anywhere near them. As an aside, I use Carr's orange label flux for all my track construction, N/S or steel. This is a rosin based flux and is non corrosive. It is the same variety as is found in most cored solder intended for the electronics industry where it is not always easy to remove all the flux afterwards. This does mean that both surfaces to be soldered must be throughly cleaned first using either a fibre glass brush or abrasive block (a coarse one appears to work best). I tend to the view that the less work the flux has to do, the better the chance of a good joint being formed. If you must use an acid flux with steel then use phosphoric acid as this is used to passivate steel as part of the anti rust treatment for car panels etc. Happy new year. Tony. |
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posted: 2 Jan 2012 10:54 from: Richard_Jones
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Hi Tony, (et al) having dusted off the punching & riveting tools after ...... years, I've managed to punch up a set of sleepers for the double slip. However it reminded me of another "hitch" - that is the punch "hanging up" in the sleeper on release - if there are holes close to each other, this can snap the sleeper, and I try to keep my thumb on the sleeper strip close to the punch to stop this happening.... Any thoughts on a better solution? Richard |
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posted: 2 Jan 2012 19:21 from: JFS
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Hi Richard, I would never say it is a "better solution", but I did post some details of how I build complex assemblies without using any rivets (I just don't like them!) - it is an approach which I worked out to particularly make use of functional plastic chairs and it works for me as they say. Details here:- topic 1433 ... and more here... http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1342 Good luck, Howard. |
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posted: 2 Jan 2012 19:43 from: Richard_Jones
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Hi, I was actually looking for solutions to the punch hanging up on the sleeper (or perhaps a suggestion as to the cause) But as another current thread says - as most of us only ever attempt one large project, it is important to get it right first time...... so all suggestions and experiences welcome best wishes Richard |
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| Last edited on 2 Jan 2012 19:43 by Richard_Jones |
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posted: 3 Jan 2012 08:38 from: Jim Guthrie
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Richard_Jones wrote: Hi Tony, (et al)Richard, I'm talking here from ignorance of the actual tools being used but I would try to fit a stripper of some form to prevent the punched material sticking to the punch. This can be fairly simple, like a piece of steel strip which is drilled with a clearance hole for the punch and which is held on, or a natz above, the material to be punched such that it strips the material off the punch when the punch is lifted after the punching action. Not knowing the makeup for your punch means that I can't really give suggestions for how you might achieve this. Obviously, the stripper has to be of sufficient rigidity to do the job and achieving that with your punch might be difficult. I made punches for Plastikard many years ago and with them, I made them of two pieces of steel with the Plastikard clamped between then so that the top plate of the assembly stripped the Plastikard from the punch. Without the top plate, the punching job would have been a right PITA since styrene tends to clamp itself round a punch. Jim. |
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| Last edited on 3 Jan 2012 08:40 by Jim Guthrie |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 14:13 from: Richard_Jones
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Hi All, With track construction stepping up I am getting frustrated at having to swap over between the punching and riveting tools - does anyone know if the presses like the one in my photo are still available, and where from? (alternatively does anyone have one they want to sell?) many thanks Richard null  |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 14:53 from: Martin Wynne
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Hi Richard, 1 day left on these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Decorative-Cast-Iron-Desktop-Letter-Address-Embossing-Press-paperweight-/261193839192 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Decorative-Cast-Iron-Desktop-Letter-Address-Embossing-Press-paperweight-/160999686263 or this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Floral-Decorated-Cast-Iron-Paper-Embosser-Stamp-Jordan-Sons-London-/121083740469 New ones: http://www.rubberstamp.uk.com/EmbossingPresses.php regards, Martin. |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 15:01 from: Richard_Jones
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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Richard,Thanks Martin - I may try those - I see one is in Southport, so could collect - they are modern ones so hopefully they won't go "silly prices" in the last 30 seconds...... The only (open) question is whether I can fit the Studiolith tools without too much modification..... cheers Richard |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 15:17 from: Martin Wynne
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Richard_Jones wrote:Hi Richard, Ask the seller about the open throat depth. You need more room for the timber press tools than simple paper embossing. Similar hand presses are used for electronics assembly of IDC connectors, so a trawl through electronics suppliers might help. See this for example: http://www.caulfieldindustrial.com/panavise---idc-assembly-press/p-124156pd.html http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PanaVise-IDC-Bench-Assembly-Press-model-505-free-shipping-/290610380857 or for 0 gauge: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/machine-presses/0541309/ Martin. |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 15:38 from: Martin Wynne
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p.s. more links: http://www.bolsons.co.uk/Ultra.htm http://www.bolsons.co.uk |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 15:53 from: Stephen Freeman
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Hi, Punches for making the holes? Why not drill? |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 16:35 from: Les Golledge
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Hi Richard, Look at this page on Machine Marts site:- http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/search/filter/hydraulic-presses/type/any/module/shopcategory/page/1?da=1&TC=SRC-AUTO-press there are two presses on the page with wide throats:- http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-ap500b-1-2-ton-arbor-press http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/1-ton-arbor-press The smaller one of these will probably do the job at a better price than some of the ones shown so far in this thread. I know one person who uses the small size to bend wing rails and any other similar rails. Regards, Les. |
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posted: 9 Apr 2013 18:35 from: GeoffJones
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Les Golledge wrote: Hi Richard,Hi Richard Those Machine Mart Arbor presses are very attractively priced but beware if you want to attach any sort of tools to them. The rams are smooth at the bottom so you can't easily attach tools to them. I have a very old arbor press that I bought secondhand many years ago and I have quite a lot of useful tools, mainly punches, that I can attach to it. It has a 1/2" hole with a set screw at the bottom of the ram. I was thinking of writing up some of these tools for the 2MM Magazine so I checked that Machine Mart version and had to give up the idea as anything else was seriously expensive. Regards Geoff Jones |
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posted: 10 Apr 2013 13:17 from: RogerW
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Try to find a good second-hand Prestincert press - they will be man enough for the job - I know they have inserts for many shapes and sizes. When still working, we used them for putting turret lugs into SRBP (Paxolin type sheet materials), and usually came with sets of other punches for semi-precision holes in sheet metals. http://www.autonic.co.uk/Datasheets/AutonicPrestincertElectronic.pdf RogerW See if you can find a Prestincert press tool - it WILL do the job http://www.autonic.co.uk/Datasheets/AutonicPrestincertElectronic.pdf We used them for putting Turret lugs into SRBP (Paxolin) sheets and their punch sets for semi precision holes in thinish sheet metal. RogerW See if you can find a Prestincert press tool - it WILL do the job http://www.autonic.co.uk/Datasheets/AutonicPrestincertElectronic.pdf We used them for putting Turret lugs into SRBP (Paxolin) sheets and their punch sets for semi precision holes in thinish sheet metal. RogerW See if you can find a Prestincert press tool - it WILL do the job http://www.autonic.co.uk/Datasheets/AutonicPrestincertElectronic.pdf We used them for putting Turret lugs into SRBP (Paxolin) sheets and their punch sets for semi precision holes in thinish sheet metal. RogerW |
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posted: 24 Apr 2013 21:55 from: Richard_Jones
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Hi Ladies and Gentlemen, many thanks to everyone who has made helpful suggestions (and even the very kind offer of the loan of an original Studiolith press) I managed to find a small hand press on ebay (for 99p + £ 2.75 postage) as below 1763_241653_410000000.jpg  I'm currently modifying it to take the riveting or punching tool, and I'll upload a photo when its finished best wishes Richard |
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posted: 12 May 2013 11:18 from: Richard_Jones
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Hi, Here's the modified press with a Studiolith rivet tool in position - if I had been clever I could have cut the upper arm to the right length, but as I made the gap too large I drilled and taped a hole for a 6BA screw which gives some adjustment on the movement, and is probably a harder wearing material than press is cast in. best wishes Richard 1763_120614_070000000.jpg  |
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posted: 5 Apr 2020 14:53 from: Chris Noble click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Martin I can print the rivet point ok using rail and timber centres. Is there a way I can export this detail to a dxf so I can laser cut the rivet holes? Regards Chris |
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| Last edited on 5 Apr 2020 14:53 by Chris Noble |
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posted: 5 Apr 2020 16:16 from: Martin Wynne
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Chris Noble wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:p.s. I have now fixed the broken link.Templot can mark the rivet hole centres for you.Hi Martin Hi Chris, You can export the rail and timber centre-lines to a DXF file. Converting the intersections to rivet holes is over to you in your CAD cutting program. There is currently no function to do that in Templot, sorry. (There might be when I have the 3D-printing and chairing functions done. Don't hold your breath. )Here's how to export the DXF: 2_051100_440000000.png  1. set the generator settings options to rails > rail head centre-lines only. 2. then rebuild all background templates. 3. output > export a file... 2_051104_030000000.png  On the DXF export dialog: 2_051104_570000000.png  4. set all the layer colours to none, except the rails and timber centre-lines. Set whatever colours you want for those. (Having different colours may help the CAD software to find the intersections? Or being on separate layers may be enough?) 5. you probably want the line styles for both set to solid. Here is the resulting DXF file imported into TurboCAD: 2_051111_310000000.png  cheers, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Apr 2020 17:18 from: Chris Noble click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin Thanks for the quick response. The piece of the puzzle I was missing was to rebuild the templates Regards Chris |
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