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topic: 1821Track Centres
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posted: 8 Feb 2012 20:06

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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I am gradually assembling my Maidenhead Goods Yard in Templot, thanks to Paul Boyd who provided advice on diamond cross overs.
I have a dilemma which I cannot resolve in my own mind so am asking members for their guidance.
I have been following the 1:2500 OS map where it seems the surveyor has set out the running lines, Up & Down Main and Up & Down Relief  other than with the Templot selected track spacing. The lines were slightly curved through the station and past the yard, as shown in photographs, but then all 4 lines straightened out.
The plan I am working to is attached.
Would other modellers follow the surveyors' settings or set-out the tracks using standard parallel spacing? My recollection is that these were exemplars of GWR track. It had to be, one of my school mates fathers was the local permanent way inspector for Maidenhead. He was a big man with a big voice!

Jerry
Attachment: attach_1348_1821_1234_flattened.png 283

posted: 8 Feb 2012 21:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Jerry,

The track centres through the platforms, between bridge abutments, in tunnels, on bridges, viaducts, etc, may be determined by the original broad gauge dimensions; and in other places the original broad gauge dimensions may have survived through several renewals simply because that makes for a shorter renewal occupation time than full remodelling.

The 1:2500 OS maps are really too small in scale to be reliable evidence of track centres. Also bear in mind that although published in say 1930 the last full re-surveying may have taken place many years earlier.

The only way to be sure is to refer to photographs, or obtain a much larger scale railway rating plan or similar.

If you can obtain some clear photographs, you may be able to extract the track centres using Gimp:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/info_files/gimp_track.htm

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 Feb 2012 21:54

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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Jerry
Have you seen "Great Western Railway Journal" No.36 which had an article on Maidenhead with lots of pictures and some plans?

The up and down relief lines seem unusually far apart through the station. Indeed there were a couple of signal posts in the "6ft" way between the relief lines. On much of the GWR line out of Paddington the main lines were originally broad gauge and the relief lines were a later addition always standard gauge, but it looks as if the relief lines were originally BG, which may account for the unusual spacing.

John

posted: 9 Feb 2012 07:49

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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My thanks to Martin and John.

Maidenhead was certainly Broad Guage, as John says there is a fairly accurate history in MRJ No 36. I would only query some of his naming of certain locations, which could only be clear to those born and bred in the town (my Mother).
The diagrams in Chris Turmer's article on pp 191-192 and 200-201  seem to be derived from the same OS map; scanning at high resolution and then opening both OS and scan in Photoshop reveals the same surveyor's measurements, text etc. in exactly the same positions.

Martin's suggestion of obtaining a better plan has me baffled, it's something I would like to do but I have no idea how to go about it. I have tried the local and county libraries and the GW Museum in Swindon found some photographs. If anyone can guide me on what might be available and how to obtain copies I would be grateful

posted: 9 Feb 2012 09:00

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,

You might try a Templot Search on Planning Portal, unfortunately, unless I'm missing something the service doesn't seem to be currently available, though there are other suggestions in the Templot thread you will find.

posted: 9 Feb 2012 11:47

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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Thanks to Borg-Rail I looked at Planning Portal (not available at present) and some of the other suggestions in Templot, all to no avail.

Does anybody have other suggestions as to sources of maps/plans please?

Jerry

posted: 9 Feb 2012 12:48

from:

Les G
 
 

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Jerry wrote:
Does anybody have other suggestions as to sources of maps/plans please?

Jerry



You could try "Old Maps"

Link:  http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html

If you enter your selected location, you will be taken to an area overview page; you can then select from available maps in various scales and at various dates, including 1:10,000.

 Using the map viewer, it is possible to zoom in for detailed examination. Later maps have a grid which should allow you to scale major dimensions.

There are books around; eg Railway Signalling and Track Plans by Bob Essary which contain tables showing loading guages and dimensions between running lines and obstruction etc.

I am part way along a similar journey to you; having discovered that my selected location needs a larger room than I have, must either compress, or select a different location, abandoning much hard won research.  I have also observed that scaling from maps is less MORE prone to error than selective scaling from photographs (as Martin Suggests)

Ultimately, it is your train set, so you can devise your own set of rules for the essential modelling compromises.

Best wishes
Les G

PS sorry about the typo, now corrected
Last edited on 9 Feb 2012 23:17 by Les G
posted: 9 Feb 2012 14:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Les G wrote:
having discovered that my selected location needs a larger room than I have, must either compress, or select a different location, abandoning much hard won research.
Hi Les,

In TDV there is also the option of bending the prototype to fit:

 message 9830

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Feb 2012 15:27

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the suggestion LesG.

The OS map I have been using and attached to previous messages came from them, but at a smaller scale. I'll have another look, perhaps at a more recent version as well.

Kind regards
Jerry

posted: 9 Feb 2012 15:47

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Jerry wrote:
Martin's suggestion of obtaining a better plan has me baffled, it's something I would like to do but I have no idea how to go about it. I have tried the local and county libraries and the GW Museum in Swindon found some photographs. If anyone can guide me on what might be available and how to obtain copies I would be grateful
Jerry

A fair while ago (probably around 1978) I obtained a very nice plan of the layout at Machynlleth directly from a WR office at Paddington (can't remember what it was called - Records Office?).  I suspect you need something similar, but not sure where you get them from these days. Have you tried the NRM? Where they don't have stuff they sometimes indicate who does.

The scale of the plan was 1:480 (40' to the inch). A bit unwieldy, a digitised version would probably be better these days

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 9 Feb 2012 16:20

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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I believe the GWR Civil Engineer's records were passed to the Wiltshire County Council's Archives. They are now to be found at Chippenham.

Try <http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/>

posted: 9 Feb 2012 17:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Jerry wrote:
I looked at Planning Portal (not available at present)
The Planning Portal maps are now available on several commercial web sites. The intention is that you should buy copies for use with planning applications, but by registering and logging in you can view the maps on-screen free.

Start from:  http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/applications/plans

Click the Buy a plan buttons. You need a postcode to start.

emapsite have a larger visible area; getmapping can zoom in closer, down to 1:200.

If you use screen grabs in Templot, please don't post them here for copyright reasons.

Of course they are modern plans, so not necessarily going to be much help for 1930.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Feb 2012 18:56

from:

Les G
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Les,

In TDV there is also the option of bending the prototype to fit:

 message 9830

Thanks Martin ,

 I remember seeing the original post.:thumb:

 sadly, in my case, it provides only a partial solution to the size problem.:(

It is my own fault for being a bit too ambitious about the original project.:cool:

Les G

posted: 9 Feb 2012 19:56

from:

geoff
 
 

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Hi All,
I might be opening a can of worms but I've occasionally thought as I prepared my own plans for Rhyl ( a bit of ): how do/did the Ordnance Survey get their track measurements? Do they really survey the positions of crossing noses and switch toes in the same way as for buildings? All seems a bit dangerous and unlikely to me. Or do they obtain their info from the Railways? Anybody know for definite? I raise this potential heresy because the OS1250 I've used does have some doglegs and strange features which don't match photographs.

Geoff (L)

posted: 9 Feb 2012 23:27

from:

Les G
 
 

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I realised that there was a typo in my earlier post (now corrected) For the avoidance of any confusion, I think that selective scaling from photographs is more accurate and reliable than scaling from maps which are, nevertheless, useful for understanding the terrain in which rail formations rest.

Les G
Last edited on 11 Feb 2012 15:35 by Les G
posted: 10 Feb 2012 10:48

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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For research you could try the National Archive (PRO that was), and the access to archives site. Local records offices also hold plans, but the quality can vary, and getting scans/images from them can be a bit hit and miss. The NA are very good on the digital side of things, they have massive scanners (I was shown them once), but will use digital photography where they can.

The last time I tried the NRM they didn't do digital copies, only paper. I used to have access to an A3 scanner, but alas not anymore!

posted: 10 Feb 2012 13:39

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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Thanks for all the suggestions.

Yesterday I made an enquiry to the National Archive. You now have to tell them what you want and in what format and then wait for an estimate.
I had searched their index first, not easy, to identify the document reference.

The confirmation I received this morning was -
<<<<<<<<<<
This email is to confirm we have received your request for an estimate for document copying.Please note that for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 the estimate serves as a Fees Notice in accordance with section 9(1) of that Act.

Your request for an estimate should be completed and sent to you within 10 working days. You will be sent another email explaining how you can view your estimate. You can then proceed with an order to copy some or all of the items you requested.


Estimate number: E490705
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium option: Digital Images
Colour option: Monochrome
 
1. Document Reference(s):     RAIL 252/155
   Instructions for Copying:  Track plan of railway at Maidenhead, Berkshire and
                               2 miles east and west of the station, and 2 miles
                               north along the Wycombe branch and 0.5 miles
                              south,  at any time from 1923 to 1939.
NB all   distances approximate
>>>>>>>>
I'll wait to see what happens, the reply should take 10 days.
Jerry


posted: 14 Jan 2020 21:18

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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I know it is some ago but was wondering what transpired? I would also be keen to learn of a signal box diagram. The SRS don't seem to have one.
Jerry wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Yesterday I made an enquiry to the National Archive. You now have to tell them what you want and in what format and then wait for an estimate.
I had searched their index first, not easy, to identify the document reference.

The confirmation I received this morning was -
<<<<<<<<<<
This email is to confirm we have received your request for an estimate for document copying.Please note that for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 the estimate serves as a Fees Notice in accordance with section 9(1) of that Act.

Your request for an estimate should be completed and sent to you within 10 working days. You will be sent another email explaining how you can view your estimate. You can then proceed with an order to copy some or all of the items you requested.


Estimate number: E490705
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium option: Digital Images
Colour option: Monochrome
 
1. Document Reference(s):     RAIL 252/155
   Instructions for Copying:  Track plan of railway at Maidenhead, Berkshire and
                               2 miles east and west of the station, and 2 miles
                               north along the Wycombe branch and 0.5 miles
                              south,  at any time from 1923 to 1939.
NB all   distances approximate
>>>>>>>>
I'll wait to see what happens, the reply should take 10 days.
Jerry



posted: 14 Jan 2020 21:52

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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SRS do have one but I would like to find a more modern version.

posted: 15 Jan 2020 15:30

from:

Jerry
 
Mansfield, Notts - United Kingdom

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Hi Stephen,

I decided not to pursue that source. I have been less than well over some months.

However I found some old school excercise books which contained more info than I could need.

I was at Maidenhead Grammar School ( now Desborough) in the 50s. Fathers of some of our year worked firstly for God's Wonderful Railway and Western Region after nationalisation and we were  treated to trips around the goods yard and various delights, in school time.

It seems to be common knowledge that it took many years for the GWR to be converted, certainly in steam days and perhaps up to the recent incarnation of type 42 diesels in what is meant to look like deep Brunswick green. Electric traction may finally change things. Brunel, Sir Felix Pole and other GWR luminaries were proud of the appearance of their railway but the erection of overhead wirs has brought that era to and end.

Sadly the era has passed
Jerry

posted: 17 Jan 2020 21:24

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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As it happens enquiries on RMweb have led to discovery of sufficient info via google of the 1962 amendments.

posted: 17 Jan 2020 21:25

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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A!so for Gwr see gwrj 36 and brj special gwr no 1



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