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topic: 1971TDV 12 months on - and still no updated docs?
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posted: 31 May 2012 21:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Dear all,

It is now just 12 months since I invited members to help me develop TDV, and 6 months since it became Templot2 and available free to all. So a good moment perhaps to reflect on where we have got to.

The main prompt for the original decision was the need to get the irregular diamonds into your hands as quickly as possible, because you had been asking and pleading for them for years. I didn't think I could make anyone wait any longer, even if the development version was in a half-finished mess.

The strange thing is, that after all the clamour for them, they now hardly get a mention on here. So either the demand wasn't really there, or I got them just right first time -- which is difficult to believe.

The same goes for several of the other new features -- platforms, gaunt turnouts, wrapping a picture shape along the control template, foot lines on FB templates, the dummy vehicle tool. Welcomed at the time, but since then -- silence. I can't believe they are all working so well first time that no one has anything to say about them.

So I will confess that I'm a bit disappointed and wondering if I have taken a wrong turning. The sketchboard function took months of work and a considerable expense for the licence for the graphics engine. But only a few sketchboard screenshots have been posted here or on any other forums. Only a tiny handful of sketchboard SK9 files have been attached here for comment. Was I wasting my time?

And if so, where to next? There are several extra functions I would like to add for my own use, but is Templot already too complicated for most users? Should I be looking at a "Lite" version where users can select pictures of A5s, B6s, etc and simply click them together? Should I provide a way to work with non-adjustable Peco templates? To import plans from AnyRail? A general dumbing down of the whole thing?

Your thoughts welcome. Which bits of Templot2 do you really like? Which bits have you not even looked at? Which bits would you do differently?

regards to all,

Martin.

posted: 31 May 2012 22:41

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Taking a break from the GOG, I can say that the introduction of irregular diamonds has helped me with Plan Y, as has the ability to include platforms and the dummy vehicle tool.

I intended to use the gaunt function, but after some decisions made by others I now can't install any :(

I've not really tried the sketchboard function as I haven't needed it to be honest.

Regards

Ian

posted: 31 May 2012 22:52

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

OK - you know I've been using Templot for donkey's years, so here goes!
...irregular diamonds... The strange thing is, that after all the clamour for them, they now hardly get a mention on here. So either the demand wasn't really there, or I got them just right first time -- which is difficult to believe.
Believe it - they just work.  Like anything that just works you never hear about it - you only hear when things go wrong!  I've used them loads of times.  My recent screenshot of a short angle diamond was actually irregular, and a slightly less recent screenshot of Yatton was absolutely stuffed with them - I wouldn't even have bothered drawing that up if I had to use partial templates.  The resounding silence is a sign that you've got it spot-on first time.
The same goes for several of the other new features -- platforms, gaunt turnouts, wrapping a picture shape along the control template, foot lines on FB templates, the dummy vehicle tool.
I'll admit to not really using any of the above.  There was nowhere near the clamour that irregular diamonds had for any of them, as far as I could tell.  To my mind, a lot of these are not part of the "core business" of Templot.  I've never modelled FB rail, but if I did then the foot lines would certainly be useful.  I'm sure though that for those that do model FB, the foot lines just work so again you never hear about it. 
The sketchboard function took months of work...
I'm afraid I really do think that was a step too far!  To be blunt, I think it's a gimmick.  I certainly didn't realize you had to pay for a license - I wouldn't have!  And having paid for the license, you now give Templot away for free? :?  Templot is for creating accurate, prototypical templates and track formations.  Pencil and paper (in my case) is for designing layouts.
And if so, where to next? There are several extra functions I would like to add for my own use, but is Templot already too complicated for most users? Should I be looking at a "Lite" version where users can select pictures of A5s, B6s, etc and simply click them together? Should I provide a way to work with non-adjustable Peco templates? To import plans from AnyRail? A general dumbing down of the whole thing?
Templot is not an intuitive program to use, and people seem less willing to try to learn how to use it.  It's incredibly powerful though if you do take the time to learn it.  Please don't move away from Templot's main purpose - Peco templates are not prototypical so have no place here.  There are other packages out there more suitable if users want to build train sets.  I genuinely don't understand why you would want to import plans from the likes of AnyRail.  If you do go for a Lite version, please do it as well as, and not instead of Templot 2!

Which bits of Templot2 do you really like?
Irregular diamonds.  Easily adjustable wing and check rails.  The speed at which complex formations can be put together with partial templates.  The ability to endlessly tinker with the most trivial of prototypical settings :D  The fact that many key functions are on keyboard shortcuts, speeding things up immensely.  I could probably go on...
Which bits have you not even looked at?
The flippant answer is "I don't know - I haven't looked at them!" :D Sketchboard would come into that list, as if you hadn't already guessed.  Just quickly flipping through the menus, I think I've used most things at some time or another.  I don't like snapping, although I can see why others do.  I've never used memo notes or the jotter.  Very rarely use the ruler and spacing rings.
Which bits would you do differently?
That's difficult to answer - having got used to the way Templot works then any changes would upset the work flow.  I would like mouse actions to move rail joints - I never have got the hang of how to get them in the right place!

I guess my direction is clear - keep Templot for designing templates for building track.  Whilst it's brilliant to design whole track plans, I don't feel that the next step to designing whole layouts is right.  In this context, a track plan is not the same thing as a layout design - I do the latter in the Iain Rice/Barry Norman style - with pencil and paper.

If I was in your position, I think now would be a good time to stop development work and sort out the help notes and tutorials.  As I said before, Templot is not intuitive to use and needs effort from the user to get the best from it.  That's hard to do when users can't find up to date instructions on how to do things.  I wonder what percentage of Templot users use this forum?  I bet it's very low.  I suspect that what might happen, especially as it's now free, is that people will download it, struggle, then complain on other forums that Templot is rubbish.  I would really hate to see that, as I'm sure you would.

But the main thing is, thanks for Templot!

Cheers

posted: 31 May 2012 23:48

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin

I think Templot2 is all good stuff, and I can't wait to try it out in earnest. Unfortunately, life being what it is, other things have taken priority over the last year, and I just haven't been able to sit down and do a lot, in fact modelling in general has taken a bit of a back seat. However, more time is becoming available and I shall undoubtedly give Templot2 a going over, which may or may not generate questions depending on how I get on.

I have had a chance to play around just a bit with the sketchpad. This was one of things I was looking forwards to and I think it's got great potential for adding to the raw trackwork to producing attractive plans. I may well end up with some questions there. Platform edges I've noted in passing, and will try to give them a go. I was working on a plan for a future project which was looking quite good; unfortunately 6 months ago I started building a new computer (W7, Intel core-i5, loads of memory etc) to replace my nice but failing XP machine, but with the log jam of things to do that has only just been completed (I'm using it now). I now find that somewhere along the line that project has got lost, so I'll redo it and try out some of the new things at the same time.

Things like diamonds in any form I don't currently have a need for, but it's nice to know they're there and one day I'll probably get to use them.

So in summary, I'm sure Templot2 was the right way to go. It's set Templot up for the future. Please don't go down the route of just offering standard templates; you'll get just as many questions, and more grumbles that the standard templates don't do exactly what somebody wants.

Cheers
Nigel


Last edited on 31 May 2012 23:49 by Nigel Brown
posted: 1 Jun 2012 01:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
If I was in your position, I think now would be a good time to stop development work and sort out the help notes and tutorials. As I said before, Templot is not intuitive to use and needs effort from the user to get the best from it. That's hard to do when users can't find up to date instructions on how to do things.
Hi Paul,

Yes I know. But I do seem to be suffering from a form of writer's block. I just can't seem to get going on such a massive task, or find my stride. Several times I've spent two or three days writing stuff, and then deleted it all. What is the right mix of visual screenshots/videos and textual explanation? How many links to other pages or topics can you sensibly include in a single paragraph? But above all, at what level to pitch the explanations? And the real killer of motivation is the nagging thought that only 3 users and a dog will ever actually read it. :(

Part of the problem is the changing user base and demographics. 12 years ago when I wrote the original track plan tutorial I knew exactly who I was talking to. Most of the users were EM or P4 modellers, with a smattering of 2mm, S gauge, S7, and the rest. All of them were experienced at handbuilt track -- you could hardly then model in EM or P4 and not be, and why else would they have got themselves a copy of Templot? If I referred to a B-7 turnout, everyone knew what I meant.

Things nowadays are rather different. A majority of the new users are 00 modellers, and many of them have never built their own track. They want to learn to do that to do justice to the recent improvements in 00 RTR models, and obtain Templot as the perceived first step in that direction. But if I refer to a B-7 turnout now, a good proportion of the readers are going to need an explanation of what that means, preferably with diagrams, comparison with Peco turnouts, and advice on when to use a B-6 or B-8 instead. The task just doubled in size. :(

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 01:47

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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Hi Martin,

I am probably not a typical TEMPLOT user but my modus operandi is to design track formations in TEMPLOT and then build them from the resulting template. In this context a track formation can be anything from a single turnout to a complex station throat. For this the irregular diamonds are a major improvement and you are correct - they work well. You have not heard about them from me because I am firm believer in the principle of "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

I have not used the gaunt turnouts but I can envision situations where they could be very useful. The same applies to the footprint of FB rail. The other enhancements that you mention really do nothing for me as I use TEMPLOT but I can see where other people might find them very useful.

If I need a layout plan I resort to pencil and paper, maybe enhanced by a color wash when I am happy with the result - usually on the twentieth or thirtieth revision. I do have 3rd PlanIt and Anyrail which are more suited to that kind of thing but pencil on paper is lot more satisfying. However they cannot do what TEMPLOT does - nothing can!

Regards,

Glen

 

posted: 1 Jun 2012 08:33

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

I was going to write a detailed response to your questions - but I find I do not need to do so as Paul B has written it for me and I would endorse every word of his post.
Unfortunately, that includes what he said about Sketchboard - I am aware of your personal reasons for your involvement in this, but to me it is functionally a different breed of software from Templot itself and I personally would have preferred to see it "sold" separately as a plug-in. I confess I have opened it only once and was faced with a sea of blank partial templates! I have never opened it again simply because its functionality is not for me.

Having said that, if it attracts new users to the world of hand built track then that is very positive, but, unfortunately, that might also bring with it some "users" who don't know their frog from their Toad.

Not my place to offer advice, but I would separate Sketchboard from Templot linked only be an import-export function. They are for me aimed at very different target markets - the users of one might struggle with the worth of the other and v.v and you risk undervaluing both by "forcing" the other upon the users of the one. There - now you have two products, not one. In the big scheme of Railway modellers, I think there is a MASSIVE potential market for Sketchboard supplied with a set of "standard" templates - and the vast majority of them would have no interest in the finer points of Templot. Indeed, it perceived complexities would just put them off.

Re manuals you are not the only one who struggles - I am just getting to grips with AutoCad, and the manual is useless unless you already know how to do things - it is plainly written by geeks for geeks - and it makes the mistake of telling you how to work the software, not how to do make drawings.
My only suggestion would be build a manual like jpeg images are built:- do the whole picture at a blocky level of detail, then do the whole thing at a slightly greater level of detail then repeat the process - thus at any stage you have something which is complete.

BUT please take a happy pill this morning! There is no doom and gloom - you have far more contented users compared with the moaners. Any software which can generate a complete Template of the L&Y's Bolton West in about 15 minutes flat in any scale or gauge can only be described as brilliant - and Templot is just that - Sketchboard or not!

Hope that is helpful.

Best Wishes,

Howard

posted: 1 Jun 2012 09:05

from:

Les G
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Hi Paul,

Yes I know. But I do seem to be suffering from a form of writer's block. I just can't seem to get going on such a massive task, or find my stride. Several times I've spent two or three days writing stuff, and then deleted it all. What is the right mix of visual screenshots/videos and textual explanation? How many links to other pages or topics can you sensibly include in a single paragraph? But above all, at what level to pitch the explanations? And the real killer of motivation is the nagging thought that only 3 users and a dog will ever actually read it. :(

Hi Martin,

I have been in a similar position with documenting a project, and realised that it was not a one man job.  It occurs to me that there are two user needs to be addressed.

The first, and most pressing, is to index the wisdom of the forum replies which are available but effectively concealed in volume of material.

The second is to update the content to reflect Templot2.

Perhaps it is timely to marshal the goodwill and talent of Templot users to deal with the first need?.

One way to do this would be to form a squad of volunteers to trawl the threads and identify essential texts.

Suggested process:

a. A list of volunteers is created.

b. Each are allocated thread(s) to investigate and report. [thus reducing duplication]

c. The report could contain an alphabetical list of links which could be collated and inserted into the index. [ These index entries would need a health warning about version differences]

d. Selected volunteers could be tasked with drafting instructions for your subsequent approval. This could perhaps include quick guides which contain little more than the sequence of commands. [ A format similar to that used in flight reference card checklists used in aviation]

e. Threads could be prioritised, based on recent query posts. 

f.  Another small set of volunteers could "flight test" draft guide sections, and report any difficulties, errors, or ommissions.

The main benefit would be to release you for the creative bit which you enjoy and do so well. You would also retain control over the process.  As the user guide update progresses, the links could be retained for as long as they may be useful.

A secondry benefit would be to allow users the pleasure of being able to help you in your struggle to complete the task.

Best wishes,

Les G

Last edited on 1 Jun 2012 09:08 by Les G
posted: 1 Jun 2012 09:39

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
 And the real killer of motivation is the nagging thought that only 3 users and a dog will ever actually read it. :(
I am not sure that your statement (well the sentiment of it!) is actually true.
I think no one "reads" the Manual, but everyone refers to it (only) when they can find no other way forward!!!  This perhaps means that it is essential, if undervalued, and should be written with the reference function in mind.
I fully agree with LesG that the last person to write the manual is the person who wrote the software - an independent, and differently wired brain is needed!
Having had a go at this task with Tony W, we found it hard too!
So who is up for a manual-writing weekend, facilitated by Martin, somewhere in deepest rural Wales?

Best Wishes,
Howard

posted: 1 Jun 2012 10:11

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Not sure about a manual writing weekend, I have enough trouble writing session plans for photography courses ! I would like to see Bolton West though, takes me back to my youth.

Regarding the manual though, how many would prefer such a thing as hard copy ? I know I get bored looking at online instructions, are others the same ? Howard makes a valid point about referring to the manual when needed. Maybe there are so many skilled Templot users out there now, probably those who regularly post on here, that the use of the manual is limited, but it is there if we need it.

As for those incumbents who are new to the joy of building track, there is a whole world of wikipedia and t'interweb for them to peruse if they wish to learn more.

I agree with Paul Boyd that maybe development should take a backseat for a while.

Keep up the brilliant work Martin

Ian

posted: 1 Jun 2012 10:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
 
The sketchboard function took months of work...
I'm afraid I really do think that was a step too far! To be blunt, I think it's a gimmick. I certainly didn't realize you had to pay for a license - I wouldn't have! And having paid for the license, you now give Templot away for free? :?  Templot is for creating accurate, prototypical templates and track formations. Pencil and paper (in my case) is for designing layouts.
Hi Paul,

The sketchboard engine and PDF engine were purchased a couple of years ago before I had any thoughts of making Templot free. Now that it is free I'm not planning to buy in any further components, although hongbin.fei has a nifty CAD-style component which would sit nicely in Templot as an alternative to DXF export to external CAD. He often emails me about it. But I fear we may be heading into bloat for bloat's sake territory if we are not careful.

Templot is now free, but donations from new users to cover such costs are gratefully received: :)

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_donate.htm

I fear that I have not properly explained the function of the sketchboard. It is not primarily intended to be used in the design of layouts. For that I agree with you that pencil and paper is the best way. And having surrounded yourself with 156 wrobbled up sketches and arrived at the 157th version, you can scan it and have it as a picture shape on the trackpad to see how it would work in practice. And then on to the 158th... :)

The sketchboard is mainly intended to be used after you have completed the track plan on the trackpad, or at least the bare bones of it. To create an attractive diagram which can be used on web pages and forums, in magazine articles, on an exhibition display panel, in the exhibition guide, and so on. I was aware that a plain screen capture from the trackpad doesn't really serve that purpose very well. And also as a means to create signal box diagrams, control panels, electrical diagrams, timetables, locking charts, and similar tasks which need a copy of the trackplan, but not necessarily every timber and check rail.

You can of course use the sketchboard as a layout design tool if you wish, but that wasn't its main purpose and I wasn't intending to steer beginners towards it before they have gained some experience of the normal trackpad functions.

Whether it should have been a separate plug-in is moot. I do want to keep the download/install side of things as simple and quick as possible, and not get users tangled up in multiple downloads and extras.

Thanks for all the comments.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 10:31

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

The last twelve months have improved Templot immeasurably and I hugely enjoyed using and playing about with the TDV. For myself, the biggest improvements are irregular diamonds, flatbottom rails and mouse action adjustment of check rails. They have made things so much easier and work perfectly to my mind.

Given that you have said in the past that Templot is intended to create track construction templates  (which is does magnificently) with layout planning a secondary function I have often wondered why so much effort was put into the Sketchboard when other core functions like split deflection switches (Y-turnouts) were neglected.
Forgive me saying this Martin, but the Sketchboard adds nothing to the core function of Templot and it has always struck me as a bit toylike. I've looked at it but not used it and I can't see under what circumstances I ever would. It seemed to me early on that if people wanted pictures of signal boxes etc. on their layout plans, then Google Sketchup was the place to go and create them.

Also please don't go down the road of giving people the opportunity to create "sectional" track templates. There are plenty of other software packages with that sort of thing in mind. Templot does not need to go there and be "all things to all men". It is specialist software for a particular market and if people expect it to create "Peco points" then they will have to discover that that's not what Templot does. They shouldn't expect it to do so any more than I would expect to compose an email using Corel Draw.

Regards

 

Alan

Last edited on 1 Jun 2012 10:33 by Alan McMillan
posted: 1 Jun 2012 10:40

from:

LSWRArt
 
Antibes - France

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hello Martin
I started Templot several months back and you were kind enough to let me try the development version, even though I had never used Templot before.

At the beginning I had lots of very basic questions and you pointed me in the direction of tutorials or videos and after that I managed to find answers to most queries using the search engine.
Even the old tutorials are not that difficult to re-interpret for Templot 2 after a bit a searching for the new command name.
I always read the daily postings and if anything looks as if it might be useful for the future I copy the notes and the web links, so I now have a folder of 'tutorials' and a folder of 'video links' and I can usually answer most questions simply by looking through the list.  I need a catch point - I just look in the folder and follow the instructions and the links.
So for me Templot has worked very well.  I am trying to construct an O guage layout in a ridiclously small space, but that is all that is available in our flat.  The layout would not have been possible without the ability to use curved turnouts and to shorten turnouts to fit the available space.

Despite the remarks of some members I have found Sketchpad vital.  I use the platform function, which works without problems and I then use Sketchpad to add the station buildings, signal box, goods shed, etc - all to scale, so I can check that everything fits and the necessary compromises look reasonable. 
Trackwork cannot be designed in isolation from the environment and infrastructure and it would have been very arduous to continually export track plans into Autocad, add buildings, find it did not fit or look right, go back to Templot for modification.....
 
it appears from my experience and from other members' comments that we are all finding the new software reliable, so I hope that you will now freeze the development and concentrate your efforts on documentation.

Ideally this would have a beginners section giving the basics of turnout construction (real and model), a glossary of terms and showing how to start in Templot and do some basic track design.  This section could also have links to useful 3rd party information, like the S4 point drawings and some of the photo tutorials of people making a model point.  I think all of this exists, although some of it needs updating to v2.
Next I think it would be great to have an index listing all the available tutorials or videos with links to the actual information.  So, if I decide I need to add a catch point to my layout so I simply look through the index and see if there is a video or tutorial available.  Every indexed item should have O(ld), or v2 against it, so we can all see whether the information has been updated, or whether it is likely to have some details which may not match the current version of Templot. 
Hopefully this will also stop some of the basic queries which we all had when we first start Templot, because you can simply say "have you read and viewed all the tutorials / videos in the basic section and have you looked through the Index?"  If the answer is yes to both of these and the member still cannot find the information, or does not understand something then it is reasonable to post a question, but not before.

Martin - I can only thank you once again thanks for your great software and for your excellent support.
Best wishes for the future
Arthur

posted: 1 Jun 2012 10:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Please don't move away from Templot's main purpose - Peco templates are not prototypical so have no place here. There are other packages out there more suitable if users want to build train sets. I genuinely don't understand why you would want to import plans from the likes of AnyRail.
Hi Paul,

My comments there were prompted by this post on the Scalefour forum:

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16963#p16963

and similar posts on other forums.

I was thinking of such functions as a "comfort zone" which would get new users started using Templot, and familiar with its way of working, before moving on to something more ambitious. Nowadays it seems important to create something usable within the first 5 minutes, and how can you do that if you don't know a B-6 from a pickled onion? :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 11:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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LSWRArt wrote:
Despite the remarks of some members I have found Sketchboard vital. I use the platform function, which works without problems and I then use Sketchboard to add the station buildings, signal box, goods shed, etc - all to scale, so I can check that everything fits and the necessary compromises look reasonable.
 
Trackwork cannot be designed in isolation from the environment and infrastructure and it would have been very arduous to continually export track plans into Autocad, add buildings, find it did not fit or look right, go back to Templot for modification.....
Hi Arthur,

I'm glad you wrote that. I did feel that many users would find sketchboard useful in many different ways, and that it would be a worthwhile addition to Templot. I've been rather taken aback by some of the negative comments. All feedback gratefully received of course, but I wonder if everyone has fully explored the possibilities there.


Every indexed item should have O(ld), or v2 against it, so we can all see whether the information has been updated, or whether it is likely to have some details which may not match the current version of Templot.
That's a brilliant idea, and so blindingly obvious now that you've said it. :)

I have in fact started such an A-Z Index, see:

 http://templot.com/companion

and I already have a plan to mark entries as beginner, intermediate, or advanced information. But I shall certainly add your suggestion, which I think may help me to advance the project more quickly. I can use similar codes within the existing text as a stopgap before a full re-write, with the advantage that those few hardy souls still using 074b can use the index too.

So many thanks for that. :thumb:

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 11:56

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Frogs, toads and pickled onions in this thread, what next my can of worms again Martin...hehe.

Seriously, I've just had another look at sketchboard with Plan Y opened in it, and it fails due to it not being able to interpret the multiple individual box files making up complex junctions. See Bexhill Station Throat attachment as an example.

I used the bgs. capability of Templot to set the new building dimensions out before I even started designing the plan as well as adding features at a later stage such as a turntable, signal boxes and platforms, before the platform function was added itself. This has been more than adequate for my needs.

Regards

Ian
Attachment: attach_1451_1971_Bexhill_Station_Throat.box 227

posted: 1 Jun 2012 12:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Ian Allen wrote:
Frogs, toads and pickled onions in this thread, what next my can of worms again Martin...hehe.

Seriously, I've just had another look at sketchboard with Plan Y opened in it, and it fails due to it not being able to interpret the multiple individual box files making up complex junctions. See Bexhill Station Throat attachment as an example.
Hi Lancastrian, :)

See my comments about partial templates here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56607-black-country-blues-the-winning-rmweb-project-layout-proposal/page__st__75#entry703266

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 12:43

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:

The sketchboard is mainly intended to be used after you have completed the track plan on the trackpad, or at least the bare bones of it. To create an attractive diagram which can be used on web pages and forums, in magazine articles, on an exhibition display panel, in the exhibition guide, and so on. I was aware that a plain screen capture from the trackpad doesn't really serve that purpose very well. And also as a means to create signal box diagrams, control panels, electrical diagrams, timetables, locking charts, and similar tasks which need a copy of the trackplan, but not necessarily every timber and check rail.
 
Martin

That's exactly what I took the sketchboard to be, hence my enthusiasm for it in my previous post. It's the sort of facility which gives Templot an extra dimension. A lot of people will reach the point at which they want a decent display of their efforts; you summarise the sort of thing quite nicely, to which I'd add create a control panel display. Without it, then Templot to me would have something missing; users would forever be wondering how they could move from their existing plan to the sort of display they're looking for.

Re writer's block, this is so common as to be normal. A long (very long!) time ago I did research leading to a Ph.D. The research was the demanding and interesting bit. Trouble was, when you'd got to the point of completion i.e you'd solved the question you were looking at, and in essence done what you'd intended, you then had to sit down to write it all up into a thesis. It was extremely difficult to get motivated to do this. I managed it, but I knew quite a few people who never did, so gave up on their Ph.D. in spite of having done the research.  I'd suggest not trying to hard. Keep thinking about it, turning things over in your mind when you want to, but don't start until something clicks and you can get some enthusiasm for doing it.

By the way, I always intended to press the Donate button again as Templot reached each new stage. Think Templot2 thoroughly warrants this.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 1 Jun 2012 12:48

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Ah, that'll be why then :-)

Cheers

Ian

posted: 1 Jun 2012 13:02

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
When someone posts a question or a problem on the forum,if a solution is forthcoming it would be helpful if the original post was edited to say it was resolved or solved.I think that way people would be able to learn quicker how to use Templot.I look for explanations but tend to go off on a tangent due to being unable to follow a specific thread to a conclusion.I believe most people are silenced by the sheer scale of Templot and its capabilities.
People take it for granted that they can use software and forget easily how it was before.One thing we all forget is everyone is different and there is usually more than one way to do something.What works for some may not for another.
Actually building model track is a good example of that.
Perhaps letting members of the Templot club document their method of achieving something in a common location would help to relieve you of some of the burden of documentation.
As the producer of Templot I am sure you would find it easier to just filter the input as usable or not when submitted by users/members.That way it would gradually build into a more complete reference.
Best wishes.
Trevor.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 17:00

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

I pretty much concur with the comments above.

I would update the original Templot tutorials to reflect the current state of Templot, as once the novice has worked through these they should have the basic grasp of what's what.Also an update of the video tutorials as a couple of thousand pictures beats a few thousand words.

Definitely a glossary of Pt way terms should be on page one, for those who think that a turnout is a set of points instead of an amalgamation of switches and crossings.

I have used the irregular diamond feature several times since it's introduction, works a treat once you get use to F9 & F10.

I have used the platform function it certainly helped when aligning track work on an island platform.

I have not used the Gaunt Turnout function yet but I have a tandem turnout to do, so I will give it a go.

I have used Sketchboard in a very basic way of putting a few blocks on to a track plan, which is about as far as I have got in trying to master it. When all else fails export it into CAD. So a video tutorial or two on the basic functions may be an idea.

HTH

Phil.:thumb::D

posted: 1 Jun 2012 17:14

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

I think Paul B and others have said most of which is significant regarding Templot 2, and I concur with just about all that has been stated.

However, I would like to reiterate, that the development and introduction of irregular diamonds and mouse action adjustment of check rails & wing rails is the brilliant light year advance that was needed to shorten template production of ones track plan.
Most importantly, as Paul B said, it all works very well, hence no postings needed, other than perhaps from complete new starters who know not how to use Templot. Well done Martin. :thumb:
It has made my job much easier, and allowed me to produce an accurately placed, completed trackplan of a complicated system in a short space of time, albeit, that lots of tidying up was, and still is, needed afterwards.
I know, it now takes me roughly about two minutes to complete an irregular diamond, and since it actually only takes about a second to construct the diamond once you select the menu, the remainder of the time is taken up by the time to accurately place the two start curves in the first instance, then to adjust the wing & check rails and rail lengths to produce the prototype company version once the diamond has been formed, job done.

I have not, as yet, had reason or need to use the ‘gaunt turnouts’, so am still undecided about them, and have not yet perhaps realised there value.
However, I am sure there are Templotter’s out there that will find them useful at some time or other, perhaps even I. :roll:

The introduction of dummy vehicles for clearances, is not only brilliant, but a very essential tool for the modeller to get things right and not have their loco’s and wagons clipping each other as they pass, or collide with the local signal box. The significant part of this is, you have made it so easy to invoke when needed. Again this works very well and requires no postings. Well done again Martin. :thumb:
This facility bye the way, I use at every piece of track put onto the trackplan work space, just to be sure, it doesn’t really take that long to do the checks in the scheme of things.

Platforms, again this is another brilliant and most welcome addition, which I use a lot, since New Street is a mass of platforms.
Again this works very well and hence requires no postings. Another well done Martin. :thumb:

Mentioning platforms, brings me onto Sketchboard, Now I make a fair bit of use of this, though not as much as I had envisaged when it was first introduced.
However, it is very useful for checking the view of the layout and in particular, that you have the platforms in the right spot (see attached screen shot of a New Street sketchboard view) (this attachment is also for Ian Allen to show, complex formations can be shown in sketchboard).

Like Paul B and others, I think it’s time to concentrate on the documentation side of Templot2.
My own view is, that a well produced stand alone ‘Starters Guide’ would be of enormous use to new comers to Templot2.

The sort of thing I had in mind, is just as you would get when you buy, say a new Tv or Video recorder, you get a simple guide, usually illustrated, on how to connect up the Tv, recorder etc in order to make it work, then instructions on the controls of the device. i.e. how to switch it on and adjust other functions.

In this respect (regarding Templot2), I think simple instructions on how to load an image file of a plan, since I doubt a user will want to just put track down on the trackplan work space without some sort of idea or guide drawing of what’s in mind.
Then to briefly explain the fundamental menus, key’s and operations needed to actual put track down and follow the plan to create a basic layout.
There is no need to go into great detail in the guide about what sort of turnout to use, these can (or will) be more fully explained in the drop down help notes when each menu item is selected (also I’m sure after a short while even the most inexperienced will become aware of such things as they progress)
The main point here is, that the new comer once he or she has the basics, will experiment more and perhaps need to ask less questions as their experience grows (and if like me, they begin to enjoy using Templot2 and see it’s potential).

I really do not see the point or reason for having a ‘Lite’ version of Templot, Templot2 is an excellent tool for producing prototypical track work, even though many non-prototype gauges are catered for within it’s structure.
I cannot understand the need to bring in commercial templates for Peco turnouts and the like.
After all, Peco produce a very concise batch of there own templates, and should the need arise for a Templot user to add a Peco device to their trackplan, they could in fact, load the image of the Peco template into Templot and the form an exact copy of it with an overlaid Templot template. Don’t you think !!
And to sum this one up, anyone can always use Xtrackcad for RTR commercially derived track part layouts, as Paul B said, “if users want to build train sets”.
I know, I used Xtrackcad several years ago, and to be fair, it did what it said on the tin, however, I then wanted to get nearer the prototype, hence my migration to Templot (glad I made the change).:D

Well Martin, that’s my 5p’s worth hope it helps.

And please do not despair or get discouraged, you have created a most brilliant tool for modellers and I am sure most (if not all) others would agree, we very much appreciate it. :thumb:
Please keep up the very good work. :thumb:

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

 

 

 

1853_011210_270000000.png1853_011210_270000000.png


posted: 1 Jun 2012 17:55

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Hi Brian,

 

I understand that complex trackwork can be shown in sketchboard, but as Martin has pointed out, they need to be "whole" points and crossings. As you can see from the included file, there is a large segment in the middle with missing information, as well as the curved scissors crossover top right.

1951_011254_460000000.png1951_011254_460000000.png


Regards

Ian
Attachment: attach_1452_1971_sketch_screenshot_2012_06_01_1749_57.png 338

posted: 1 Jun 2012 18:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Nicholls wrote:
The sort of thing I had in mind, is just as you would get when you buy, say a new Tv or Video recorder, you get a simple guide, usually illustrated, on how to connect up the Tv, recorder etc in order to make it work, then instructions on the controls of the device. i.e. how to switch it on and adjust other functions.
Hi Brian,

Unfortunately it is not quite as simple as that. Or at least, I can't work out how to make it that simple. With a new video recorder everyone has the same objective -- unpack and assemble it, plug it in and switch it on, try recording something. If all else fails read the manual. :)

Whereas new users arriving at Templot do not all share the same objective.

A P4 modeller might arrive wanting to create and print a set of construction templates for Great West of Scotland Railway interlaced turnouts, 1904 pattern, with 80lb/yard rail. He won't be needing an explanation of how crossing angles are measured, but he will need an explanation of how to adjust the check rails.

An EM modeller might arrive wanting to recreate a track plan of Crewe station. He won't be needing an explanation of how to set different track standards, but he might need an explanation of crossing angles.

An 00 modeller might arrive wanting to convert his Peco layout plan into a Templot track plan, looking for a medium radius turnout. He won't be needing an explanation of how to adjust the check rails, but he will need some advice on the different 00 track standards and how to set them before doing anything else.

In short it's extremely difficult to find a common entry point to get everyone started, without going over some users heads or teaching others to suck eggs. Both situations are likely to turn users away from the notes as being of no relevance to them. I've had several goes at this over the years, and I'm no nearer a solution. If every new user arrived with a proper understanding of what Templot is and what it's for it would help. But I know from experience that even that can't be assumed.

And then of course there is another type of new user. The experienced Windows/AutoCad user, who almost needs a completely different manual entirely, to get him over the shock. :)

Thanks to everyone for all your comments and kind words. It's all valuable advice and much appreciated.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:23

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Right on cue, this post has just appeared on RMweb. It's typical of so many emails I've received over the years, and the reason I made Templot free. The obligation always to reply helpfully to a message such as this for a paying customer was making me ill:
 
 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57131-new-to-templot/

Anyone care to have a go at composing a reply?

I don't mean RTFM. A helpful reply to get a new user at least started.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:28

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Many thanks for the response.

Apologies for replying to your comments, but I think there may a slight misinterpretation of what I was getting at about the Starter Guide. :)

First let me say, I fully appreciate the complexity of different users and there particular requirements, and as you say, and I agree, it would be almost impossible (if not impossible) to explain to each how to do all the things that they individually want to do in any one document.

My idea was for the person that comes into contact with Templot for the first time (just like the person that opens the box on a new item for the first time).

I know when I first opened Templot, I did not have a clue what to do next, and the feeling of, one might say helplessness, as the menus were unfamiliar and in some cases the terminology, and I can understand why some people might just quit at that point (and as a consequence, unjustifiably, give Templot a bad press).

However, because of my inquisitive mind I persevered, and started to click buttons, select menus, just to see what happened.
And having ‘screwed’ up few things (probably just about everything) in the early stages of the process, I slowly began to find out what items did, and how to start getting some basic results (or semblance of a track-plan).
This was also coupled with many visits to the Templot Club and Companion site.

Eventually after some time (I can’t remember actually how long it took) I began to put track onto the, as then workpad, and from then progressed onward and upward as they say.

But it did take a time and lots of visits back and forth to Templot Companion and the Club, which to my mind was a bit of a pain, when a simple basic instruction sheet might have help to shorten the learning process and subsequently encourage one to continue to use Templot.

That’s it Martin, hopefully just trying to be helpful. :)

As mentioned before, please keep up the very good work. :thumb:

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:34

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Sorry to push it home, but the very first post on the RMweb you linked us to, is the very point I was trying to make. :)

When you first open Templot, it’s, one might say, a culture shock. :)

As mentioned before, please keep up the very good work. :thumb:

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.


posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:44

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Well, you've stirred up a hornet's nest!
Unfortunately it is not quite as simple as that. ... Whereas new users arriving at Templot do not all share the same objective.
I think they do!  All new users need to know their peg from their notch, how to create a simple turnout, how to "join" two templates together, how to save their work, what Templot is for.  In other words, the basics.  Forget Crewe in EM, or adjusting the blunt nose width, if the basics aren't understood.   I suspect that's what Brian might have been getting at.

...expect that I've just realised that a raw beginner doesn't need to know about pegs and notches because they can just snap templates together.  I see what you mean!

Sorry if I've discombobulated you regarding SketchBoard.
The sketchboard is mainly intended to be used after you have completed the track plan on the trackpad, or at least the bare bones of it.
Others have mentioned it, but when I've had a go after I've completed the track plan I get loads of huge gaps where partial templates are.  I understand why this happens, and that I would need to use complete templates, but by this stage the whole layout has been designed with pencil and paper, so I don't need to then import it into SketchBoard.  I know Brian Nicholls has uses SketchBoard a lot and has posted some nice screenshots (including in this thread!) but doing that myself serves no purpose for me.  Perhaps I'm stuck in the past, although I strongly suspect that I'm a good few years younger than Brian!
Whether it should have been a separate plug-in is moot. I do want to keep the download/install side of things as simple and quick as possible, and not get users tangled up in multiple downloads and extras.
No - it's there now so leave it there.  Templot isn't exactly a huge download with all the bells and whistles included!  Those of us who have yet to appreciate the benefits of SketchBoard (see, I can be diplomatic!) can just ignore it for the time being.

There does seem to be some sort of consensus that the documentation is important now.  I agree wholeheartedly with Arthur when he says that it's reasonable for someone to have read the user guide before asking questions, but the user guide has to be up to date!  I must admit that I find myself thinking sometimes that if someone has obviously not bothered to read the manual, then I can't be bothered to help.  What's harder is when someone comes along trying to do something better than RTR but gets stuck because they don't know enough about the prototype.  I think the documentation should help with that aspect to a certain extent, but I think this forum would be a better resource.  For instance, my recent request for help regarding BR(W) check rail length and position isn't something I would expect to see documented, but turnout terminology should be so we don't get the frogs and toads scenario :D 

I'm glad you're finding the overall thread useful, even if some of it isn't what you expected to hear!

Cheers

posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:49

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hello again
Right on cue, this post has just appeared on RMweb. It's typical of so many emails I've received over the years, and the reason I made Templot free. The obligation always to reply helpfully to a message such as this for a paying customer was making me ill: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57131-new-to-templot/ Anyone care to have a go at composing a reply?
I think the obvious reply should be "Why not join the Templot forum and ask for help?" (although I'm afraid this might fall into my RTFM category so maybe I shouldn't reply...)

posted: 1 Jun 2012 19:50

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Ian,

Thanks for the response and the attached file, I don’t want to hog Martin’s post, so will keep it short.

I can see your dilemma, however, it’s quite simple to overcome, as I am sure you are now aware of.

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 20:13

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Whilst waiting for the kettle to boil just now, I was wondering if it would be feasible or even desirable for a new user to have to join Templot Club to be able to download Templot from a "member's area"?

I just stuck my "so what's this Templot then?" hat on, and googled Templot.  The first link that comes up is unsurprisingly http://www.templot.com and in my eagerness I ignore all the words and just click on "download".  "Please read these notes first".  Yeah, yeah, where's the download button?  There it is, download, install, run it then ask on any forum except this one how to use it!  That's because the reference to Templot Club was a fleeting glimpse on the way in, whereas if you had to sign up to here,  the new user has no choice but to be aware of Templot Club.

Just a thought...

posted: 1 Jun 2012 20:29

from:

Brian Nicholls
 
Poole - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

You started of well in your post, Ref. < Unfortunately it is not quite as simple as that. >, in basically agreeing with my message, then did a slight ‘U’ turn. :D


Paul Boyd wrote:
...expect that I've just realised that a raw beginner doesn't need to know about pegs and notches because they can just snap templates together.  I see what you mean!

To this I would say, not having seen Templot before (opening it for the first time), how would he or she be able to even know how to snap templates together ?
In fact, how would they even know how to bring a template onto the trackplan ? :(


That’s the reasoning behind my posted idea, it’s the very basics to get people started in trying to use Templot.

As you say Martins stirred up a hornet's nest! :)

All the best,

Brian Nicholls.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 20:49

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Ian Allen wrote:
I understand that complex trackwork can be shown in sketchboard, but as Martin has pointed out, they need to be "whole" points and crossings. As you can see from the included file, there is a large segment in the middle with missing information, as well as the curved scissors crossover top right.

1951_011254_460000000.png1951_011254_460000000.png
Hi Ian, Paul,

This problem of missing partial templates applies only to diagram mode output. It's quite simple and quick to overlay temporary dummy plain track templates to create a neat output.

But if you don't want to do that, you can use the normal detail mode output instead. Simply untick the diagram mode option on the sketchboard control panel (trackplan tab), or untick the sketchboard > auto-add is in diagram mode menu item on the trackpad.

Here is an example of what I mean. This is a very impressive plan which Raymond uploaded. In diagram mode you can see many gaps where there are partial templates:

2_312009_140000001.png2_312009_140000001.png


This is the same thing on the sketchboard in detail mode, with the timbering omitted. There is plenty of scope for further tidying up by removing transition markers, etc.:

2_312009_130000000.png2_312009_130000000.png


There is then a third option. Still in detail mode, but using the output > output mode options > detail mode options > thick centre-lines only option. Again, all partial templates show, and this is a useful alternative to diagram mode. The default colour is black, I changed it to orange for fun:

2_312050_280000000.png2_312050_280000000.png


regards,

Martin.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 20:53

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Anyone care to have a go at composing a reply?

The good news is that (when I looked) two people have already given positive responses - including one from one of our number with the suggestion to come here! (Hard hats on chaps).
One thought - why not have a "First run" item which is a link to the Companion and to the the most basic "how to make a template video".  Even those of us who never RTFM would find it hard to resist clicking on such a link.  The slightly frustrating thing about this individual, is that he is claiming to have looked at the vids and still not be able to make a start.  Ah well...
Sorry if my comments about Sketchpad sounded negative. It is not that I think it is "bad" - more that having been around Template for a few years, it solved a problem which I still don't know I have with the result that I will never put the effort into getting to grips with it.  Other will of course have different needs.
Best Wishes,
Howard.

posted: 1 Jun 2012 23:54

from:

jeffthom
 
Titusville, Florida - USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Dear all,

It is now just 12 months since I invited members to help me develop TDV, and 6 months since it became Templot2 and available free to all. So a good moment perhaps to reflect on where we have got to.
-------
The same goes for several of the other new features -- platforms, gaunt turnouts, wrapping a picture shape along the control template, foot lines on FB templates, the dummy vehicle tool. Welcomed at the time, but since then -- silence. I can't believe they are all working so well first time that no one has anything to say about them.

Martin - I'll speak for myself in this... You have created a masterpiece of delightfully competent software for we model railroaders.  I doubt anyone here will say me nay in this.   I have two of the other usual suspects in my shop here as well.  They cannot compare except perhaps in a very few particulars.  They are easier to learn, it is true, just as the spray paint can is simpler to use than my Pasche double acting airbrush.  Both can slather paint onto a rock face, but which one will we pick to selectively weather running gear on a hard-working coal unit train?

---------------------------------------------
So I will confess that I'm a bit disappointed and wondering if I have taken a wrong turning. The sketchboard function took months of work and a considerable expense for the licence for the graphics engine. But only a few sketchboard screenshots have been posted here or on any other forums. Only a tiny handful of sketchboard SK9 files have been attached here for comment. Was I wasting my time?

As noted by others Sketchpad is super convenient to overlay ancillary structures and edges of right-of-way.  That is not a trivial need when squeezing the last bit of layout out of a few square inches (cm).  This is done to refine the layout, not to make beautiful displays.  In fact, mine look like crap. However they serve me well to keep platform edges away from the car end  platforms, etc.
   Most useful indeed.

----------------------------------- 
Should I provide a way to work with non-adjustable Peco templates? To import plans from AnyRail? A general dumbing down of the whole thing?

A nice thought!  A friend would like me to help him create a simple layout using purchased trackwork like Peco crossings and turnouts.  Is it a serious bother to consider importing libraries of these proprietary templates?


---------------------------------------

Your thoughts welcome. Which bits of Templot2 do you really like? Which bits have you not even looked at? Which bits would you do differently?

Several others mention documentation.  My recent move to Florida (No Basement!!!),  plus retiring, plus settling some family matters cause my modeling sessions to be embarrassingly infrequent right now.  I do a lot of wheel-spinning finding the relevant tutorials and getting back to speed.  If a manual is worthy I have no problem printing it for direct  reference.  There are several Universities where monochrome, bound copies can be made very cheaply.  Where color is really required it gets printed locally and glued in!

----------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, thank you again for providing us with this tool.  I'll be sending along a few more quid for your lager fund directly.  Right lads???  :D


Jeff Thompson


posted: 2 Jun 2012 00:14

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Cracked it, thanks to Martin once again :)

1951_011913_210000000.png1951_011913_210000000.png

 

I replied to the RMWeb thread too :)

Regards

Ian

 

posted: 2 Jun 2012 09:14

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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I have been using TEMPLOT for a long time and I suppose I have grown up with it.

I like it and it is far and away the premier trackwork design tool available. However that is what it is, it is not a pick and plonk toy trainset programme such as AnyRail.

I was very pleased about the irregular diamonds and I have used it many times now. As Paul said it just works so I never had any questions to ask. Sketchbook I don't use.

I suppose if I were beginning now I feel I would like to be told right at the beginning that it is not toy trackwork and I would also like to be told that the programme is about producing a model representation of real trackwork.

That therefore tells me right at the beginning if all I want is to stick Peco toy track down this programme is not for me.

If I decide the programme is for me then I would like a simple "Get you started" guide. This needs to be sufficient to at least manipulate a template, join two templates together, convert a turnout template to plain track and insert a template into plain track.

I need to be told that the best way of going about a track-layout is to put the plain line down and then insert turnouts.

After that I think it reasonable that I would be directed to the tutorials and the Forum.

There are many programmes that have similar learning curves - ever tried using Eagle for PCB layout? Still can't fathom it out.

So I wouldn't bother with a full blown manual - far too much work for you and the tutorials and forum do fine but I would produce a "Get you started" guide.

Just a few thoughts.

regards

Alan



posted: 2 Jun 2012 09:50

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
I suppose if I were beginning now I feel I would like to be told right at the beginning that it is not toy trackwork and I would also like to be told that the programme is about producing a model representation of real trackwork.

That therefore tells me right at the beginning if all I want is to stick Peco toy track down this programme is not for me.
Thanks Alan.

We do have this page to do that:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?about_this_web_site.htm

and this:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?basic_qa.htm

which includes this:
Q. Is it just like XTrackCad or AnyRail ?

These and similar programs are mainly designed to build up layout plans from a library collection of ready-made model "set-track" trackwork pieces. Many of these tracks are "toy" designs which bear little resemblance to full-size railway track.

Templot is intended instead primarily for modellers who wish to construct their own track. It works from full-size railway practice and generates each template as it is required with an infinite variety of sizes, lengths, radii and angles, so that no two templates need ever be the same and each one is exactly matched to its location on your railway.

And Templot lets you work at a greater level of detail, specifying if you wish settings for switch and crossing angles, timbering sizes and spacings, check rail lengths, rail widths, etc., most of which are entered as their full-size prototype dimensions, not in model sizes.

If you want to plan your trackwork based on proper railway practice then Templot is the software to use.
Is that enough?

The problem as always is getting folks to actually read it. I don't know the answer to that, short of preventing the program from running until you tick a box to say you've read it and correctly answered some questions about it. :)


If I decide the programme is for me then I would like a simple "Get you started" guide. This needs to be sufficient to at least manipulate a template, join two templates together, convert a turnout template to plain track and insert a template into plain track.  need to be told that the best way of going about a track-layout is to put the plain line down and then insert turnouts.
Yes, if you want to do track planning. But if you are only interested in printing out templates, you don't need to know any of that. This is the big problem in writing the help notes.

At present I steer beginners towards these two online videos, which do cover most of the basics -- they need updating for Templot2:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/startup/startup_em.html

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/starter/em_starter.html

But again, the problem is getting folks to actually watch them.

Allan Ferguson and Tony Wilkins have both written beginners tutorials, obeying the golden rule that the notes should not be written by me: :)

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?getting_started_allan_ferguson.htm

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?beginners_guide_tony_wilkins.htm

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 10:48

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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LSWRArt wrote:
...Despite the remarks of some members I have found Sketchpad vital.  
I am still designing the trackwork for my station. I am trying the ability to "distort" the background to fit an "S" shape so the track enters near the baseboard front at one end and leaves at the far baseboard edge at the other end. So this facility is something I welcomed and am using.
As for Sketchpad, I've "played" around with it and found it useful. I plan to add the platforms and buildings (once the trackwork is finalised), then print the whole thing on transparencies. I can then glue this to the underside of the baseboard so I have the track & buildings "mirrored". Then when adding items such as point motors, electronics (*) etc. I will know if I am going to drill into a building or not.
(*) being in MERG I do use quite a lot of electronics! Howard Watkins

posted: 2 Jun 2012 11:24

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Martin,

a coupe of extra thoughts.

I'd forgotten to mention the new facility to drape pictures along a defined curve. Almost on a par with curved crossings. It’s a great feature - in fact I've used it for non-railway things as well.

Getting back to the down-load. I'm with Paul; I think you should require registration to get the programme. It's not unusual to have to do so; I have a number of programmes that I have had to register to get them. Some simply give you access after registration others e-mail a link. Personally I would do the former but as part of the registration they become forum members.

Is it possible to programme Templot that on first use of the pages, that you have pointed me to in your answer to my first posting, they pop-up or at least links to them and with a clear continue button that clearly says (If they want to ignore them) "I don’t want to look at the "getting started" pages? Again many programmes do something similar - and many have a "do not show again" button.

You are ways going to get people who find it too difficult and don't want to put the effort in to learn. That's their loss, ignore them. They would have the same problem with AutoCAD, CorrelDraw etc and does AutoCAD fret over it? 

Alan

posted: 2 Jun 2012 11:55

from:

Les G
 
 

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Martin,

I agree with Alan and Paul, "registration before forum" is a common practice which could be helpful. The suggestions about "beginner links" at the outset would be beneficial for most users;  especially in the early days of learning about track and Templot or as a quick refresher if the user has not opened Templot for a while.  As somone else has observed, many beginners' queries on the forum could then be answered by almost any user posting a simple link.
     Btw, I omitted to mention it in my earlier post about trawling through the Forum topics for indexing, but I am willing to be a part of the trawling team if you decide to adopt the idea.  
best wishes,
Les G


posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:00

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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HI Brian
You started of well in your post...  ...then did a slight ‘U’ turn. :D
They're fashionable at the moment, don't you know? :D



posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
Getting back to the down-load. I'm with Paul; I think you should require registration to get the programme. It's not unusual to have to do so; I have a number of programmes that I have had to register to get them. Some simply give you access after registration others e-mail a link. Personally I would do the former but as part of the registration they become forum members.
Hi Alan,

It's very important to me that the free Templot2 version is supplied on a "take it or leave it" basis and comes without any obligation on my part to provide any help, support or anything else.

Of course I do try to help users as much as I can, but I want it clearly understood that I am under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

Requiring membership of Templot Club compromises that. The user is required to provide an email address, and accept cookies on their computer. If that is made a requirement of using Templot, in return there would be the implied guarantee that if they have any problems, an answer would be provided here. Often of course it will be, but it can't be guaranteed, and as I'm the owner of this web site such an obligation would ultimately fall on me.

So I won't be making it a requirement of using Templot. The download link is there, visible to the entire world, and free for anyone who wants it to download. But it comes without any warranty or guarantee from me of any kind.

In practice it would hardly make much difference. This Templot Club web site is entirely public for anyone to read, member or not. Membership is required only to post messages. There are several links within the program to encourage users to visit here, and suggestions that membership would be beneficial. But it is absolutely not a requirement.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:18

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
We do have this page to do that: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?about_this_web_site.htm and this: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?basic_qa.htm The problem as always is getting folks to actually read it
I suspect that actually the problem is getting folks to find it!  I just started from http://www.templot.com because that's the first link Google gives you.  (I've got my "what's Templot?" hat on!!)  If you click on the link to read about Templot, you're taken to http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm If you click on the Templot Companion link, you're taken to http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_gs.htm The latter page does give you a link to take you to the new page, but I have to admit that I missed it at first because the main page content caught my attention instead of the note at the top.  Maybe you should just put the New Companion link directly on the front page, and link the old from the new instead of the other way around.

(Edited because the forum software mangled the links first time around - I didn't intend them to work as links!)



Last edited on 2 Jun 2012 12:22 by Paul Boyd
posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:32

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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It's very important to me that the free Templot2 version is supplied on a "take it or leave it" basis and comes without any obligation on my part to provide any help, support or anything else.
OK - that's understood.

I have to wonder what makes someone download software, struggle with it and then not return to the site from which it was downloaded to seek help. (As in yesterday's example).  Seems strange to me!

posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:41

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Hi Martin
We do have this page to do that: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?about_this_web_site.htm and this: http://templot.com/companion/index.html?basic_qa.htm The problem as always is getting folks to actually read it
I suspect that actually the problem is getting folks to find it!  I just started from http://www.templot.com because that's the first link Google gives you.  (I've got my "what's Templot?" hat on!!)  If you click on the link to read about Templot, you're taken to http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm If you click on the Templot Companion link, you're taken to http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_gs.htm The latter page does give you a link to take you to the new page, but I have to admit that I missed it at first because the main page content caught my attention instead of the note at the top.  Maybe you should just put the New Companion link directly on the front page, and link the old from the new instead of the other way around.
Hi Paul,

Yes, I know. :(  As I've mentioned once or twice, the whole thing is a mess. It's been in a constant state of flux for years. I've always put off making wholesale changes because I knew they would be rendered obsolete by the next pug, and thus wasted effort. Then the pug takes longer than expected, we have users on three different versions, and things just got worse and worse.

That's the main reason why Templot2 rings home, and I've stopped supplying lock-release codes. If we can get everyone using the same version at all times, there is a much better chance of getting the web site cleaned up and making sense. At present there are still quite a few users on 074b, and they still need easy access to the old stuff.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:50

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,
As a quick response to your request....
I think the availability of irregular diamonds is brilliant.
I have found the platform function to be extremely useful, as is the dummy vehicle tool; likewise the ability to adjust check/wing rails.
In contrast, I have never used the spacing ring.
Sketchboard is also a great addition, for those of us who wish to produce a clear, unfussy, diagram for one of the reasons for which it was intended.
In short, Templot2 is excellent.
I have long felt that some (most?) of those who moan about Templot in general are often complaining about it not being intuitive for layout design - and of course they have completely missed the point that Templot was not really intended for layout design; it just happened that by connecting prototypical track templates you could use it in that way...
Personally, I have in fact used it mostly for designing layouts and don't see any cause for complaint at all, becasuse I accept that what I am actually doing is designing a series of track templates that I have chosen to interconnect!  But then I did spend quite a long time just playing around with a few turnout templates to see how things worked - finding out what happens if I do this or that.... 
I didn't understand what "B6 turnout" meant when I first bought Templot (version .78 I think), but I took the trouble to read the excellent notes about switch types and crossing angles - and learnt.  It never occurred to me to regard that as a chore, it was an enjoyable process.
To avoid future misunderstandings maybe there is a need for a new download page that states in large letters what Templot is designed to do and poses the question "are you interested in designing model railway track based on prototypical practice?" Clicking YES would download Templot2, NO would take you to a page listing links to the various train-set planning packages available.... :D
But most of all,  a very genuine and heartfelt 'thank you' to you , Martin, for having created an extraordinary program that is brilliant at doing what it was designed to do.
Kindest regards,  Stuart

posted: 2 Jun 2012 12:51

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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I just tried to reply to the RMweb cry for help, but it seems that RMweb has crashed yet again so my reply has been lost.  I really can't be bothered with that website if it's so unreliable!

posted: 2 Jun 2012 13:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
I just tried to reply to the RMweb cry for help, but it seems that RMweb has crashed yet again so my reply has been lost. I really can't be bothered with that website if it's so unreliable!
It's the awful IP.Board software. Andy Y must have had a rush of blood to the head the day he opted for that. Sooner or later he is going to have to move the whole thing to something more reliable, but I don't envy him the task.

Your reply may not be lost, and the server usually recovers in a few minutes. If you try again you may see a note about restoring auto-saved content, just below the posting area. You may even find that your reply got posted anyway.

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 15:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
Is it possible to programme Templot that on first use of the pages, that you have pointed me to in your answer to my first posting, they pop-up or at least links to them and with a clear continue button that clearly says (If they want to ignore them) "I don’t want to look at the "getting started" pages? Again many programmes do something similar - and many have a "do not show again" button.
Hi Alan,

If you remember the early builds of TDV, there was a Quick Intro wizard for new users, which showed automatically on first use of Templot. I disabled it because it was taking me too long to prepare the content, delaying the release of Templot2. It's the sort of thing which has to be all or nothing, you can't sensibly have a half-finished introductory guide.

The advantage of doing it within the program rather than on the web site is that it can be interactive, see the notes about trackpad colours:

2_020954_370000000.png2_020954_370000000.png

2_020954_380000001.png2_020954_380000001.png

2_020954_390000002.png2_020954_390000002.png

2_020954_390000003.png2_020954_390000003.png

I'm minded to restore this feature, but to pull the content from the server instead of embedding it within the program. That makes it more flexible and easier to update.

regards,

Martin.



posted: 2 Jun 2012 15:38

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:
Is it possible to programme Templot that on first use of the pages, that you have pointed me to in your answer to my first posting, they pop-up or at least links to them and with a clear continue button that clearly says (If they want to ignore them) "I don’t want to look at the "getting started" pages? Again many programmes do something similar - and many have a "do not show again" button.
Hi Alan,

If you remember the early builds of TDV, there was a Quick Intro wizard for new users, which showed automatically on first use of Templot. I disabled it because it was taking me too long to prepare the content, delaying the release of Templot2. It's the sort of thing which has to be all or nothing, you can't sensibly have a half-finished introductory guide.
Hi Martin,

I've stayed out of this discussion so far, although I have been following it with much interest.  The reason is that I am hardly qualified to comment on the usability of Templot, having repeatedly failed to get beyond the basics in learning it.

I do want to comment at this point, as the four screenshots that you have just posted illustrate exactly the problem of being "overwhelmed" that new users - and that includes me - face.

Your first picture explains the Trackpad very well.  It's not the most intuitive of names - a trackpad is these days the bit on the front of a laptop, but I suspect that you were using the term well before Dell and co. 

Then you leap straight away into how to customise it.  And then you introduce the Sketchboard, which the new user may never want or need, if all they need is to make a single template and print it off - something that you yourself say is a core aim of Templot.

And only on slide four, do you return to the logical next step of explaining about the current template.

It's this utter confusion of process and functions that defeats many new users.  The multitude of ways in which it is possible to access and use a command is a similar thing.  A new user wants to be able to learn how to do something in a familiar way, which probably means with a mouse and a drop-down menu, as that's the way that 98% of computers work these days.

So I can only echo the call for a really straightforward, simple, user guide.  And if that means repackaging the two ones from Tony and Alan that have been written already, so much the easier for you.

But please, please please, KISS!  Make it an introductory guide, and forget about the whistles and bells of Templot.  Or you will be having this debate for eternity.

HTH
Paul Willis





posted: 2 Jun 2012 15:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. The content in those screenshots isn't necessarily finalized. I posted those simply to remind members of the development group about this feature. It's not currently in Templot2, and in truth only replicates what is on the web site. The first 3 are scrolls of the first page. The note about the control template is actually on the second page, just one click away.

But your post illustrates the problem so well. You want me to explain how to do things, before explaining what the user is looking at? And what things? Surely it is necessary to explain some of the things Templot can do, before asking the user which one he would like to try? You may want to do one thing, but it's just as likely another user would want to do something else.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 16:06

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
But your post illustrates the problem so well. You want me to explain how to do things, before explaining what the user is looking at? And what things? Surely it is necessary to explain some of the things Templot can do, before asking the user which one he would like to try? You may want to do one thing, but it's just as likely another user would want to do something else.
Hi Martin,

Two comments on your statement, which clearly comes from a preconceived view of new users:

- you're confusing "marketing" and "implementation" :-) 

- Templot is (in purpose as a tool, if not in user interface) just like any other piece of software.  Look to the structure of other manuals and copy those.

I'm currently ploughing through the TurboCAD manual, and finding is a very logical progression in learning.  It hasn't tried to explain to me in the first fifty pages that 3D hidden line rendering is available, even if that may be the only reason that I bought it...  I have to learn the basics first and wait to page 457 for that!

You've heard from others what the majority of users want to do.  Create templates and link them together.  Probably based on a scanned diagram.  Then will come customising (shoving timbers, lengthening check rails) and only after that the other more advanced functions like drawing pictures.

Cheers
Paul



posted: 2 Jun 2012 16:17

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:


If I decide the programme is for me then I would like a simple "Get you started" guide. This needs to be sufficient to at least manipulate a template, join two templates together, convert a turnout template to plain track and insert a template into plain track.  need to be told that the best way of going about a track-layout is to put the plain line down and then insert turnouts.
Yes, if you want to do track planning. But if you are only interested in printing out templates, you don't need to know any of that. This is the big problem in writing the help notes.

 
Well, if you want to just print out templates you still need to know how to manipulate individual templates i.e. alter crossing angle etc. How about something like this as the initial part of a getting started guide?
1) Statement: when you start up Templot you find yourself looking at a curved B6 turnout, drawn to a mythical T55 scale.
2) Before you do anything at all you need to tell Templot what scale you want to use. Do this by .......
3) You now have a curved B6 turnout drawn in your scale. But what is a B6 turnout? Explain about crossing angles and switches (for REA track). Explain about substitution radius and how it gives an idea of "size" of the turnout in common model terminology, and where you can find it (not sure this is the right place for this).
4) Basic alterations to a turnout: convert to straight; alter crossing angle; maybe just mention that switches can be altered.
5) Saving the template so that you can re-use it later
6) Printing the template.
7) Pointer to a video which goes over all this.

The next section can then start looking at the slightly more involved bits of Templot.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 16:23

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
I think one of the core requirements to using Templot is at least a basic attempt to learn and understand the prototypes technical jargon.After all one needs to learn the alphabet in order to read or write a book.I don't think one should expect to be able to use Templot without making some effort to learn about the real thing.Research and information is needed in order to understand and enjoy this railway modeling hobby we all derive so much satisfaction from.Bearing in mind the complexity of the subject should it be a surprise people cant reproduce Crewe as it was in the 1920's just by doing a couple of clicks.
I think due to computers a lot of people expect a result at the press of a key without any effort or input.Personally I find researching and learning something new and challenging part of the attraction.
Most of us aspire to recreating things as near to the real thing as we can manage.Unfortunately not every one has the same aptitude with the result some are just not capable or informed enough for the task in hand.
Best Wishes.
Trevor.
:)

posted: 2 Jun 2012 16:25

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Willis wrote:
You've heard from others what the majority of users want to do. Create templates and link them together. Probably based on a scanned diagram.
Hi Paul,

So what's wrong with the 12-year-old tutorial? :

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/tut5a.htm

And although users may want to "create templates and link them together", it isn't the best way to use Templot, or the most prototypical, as Alan explained. The best way is to create alignments and insert turnouts into them. If you watch this video, you will see that nothing is ever created before being linked to anything else, the "linking" comes first:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/videos/flash/starter/em_starter.html

Templot is now free. My intention is to listen to what folks say, but in the end I do things in my own way. If Templot doesn't suit some folks, I'm afraid they will just have to leave it.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 16:32

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Trevor Walling wrote:
Hello Martin,
I think one of the core requirements to using Templot is at least a basic attempt to learn and understand the prototypes technical jargon.After all one needs to learn the alphabet in order to read or write a book.I don't think one should expect to be able to use Templot without making some effort to learn about the real thing.Research and information is needed in order to understand and enjoy this railway modeling hobby we all derive so much satisfaction from.
Hi Trevor,

So I think that I have a pretty good knowledge of the prototype, and its terminology.  I can tell a switched diamond from an outside slip.  I don't think that there is any prototype term in the Templot menus that I don't understand.  I know what I want to get out of Templot.

So what is your explanation as to why it is so difficult to learn as a design tool?

Cheers
Paul

posted: 2 Jun 2012 18:22

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
           
So what is your explanation as to why it is so difficult to learn as a design tool?
The sheer complexity of the prototype and the compromises one has to make for modelling.
For example if one considers just the sixfoot way in the prototype and the required difference to allow for clearances on a model to avoid collisions as just one of the many quirks.If you look at the variations from pre-grouping to present day that you can factor in to the equation when using Templot the alternatives are mind boggling.

Regards.

Trevor. :)

posted: 2 Jun 2012 19:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Willis wrote:
I don't think that there is any prototype term in the Templot menus that I don't understand. I know what I want to get out of Templot.

So what is your explanation as to why it is so difficult to learn as a design tool?
Hi Paul,

So where are you getting stuck? I'm sure it can't be much.

If you ask on here, perhaps including a screenshot*, someone is sure to help.

regards,

Martin.

*output > export a screenshot... menu item.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 19:29

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Paul Willis wrote:
So what is your explanation as to why it is so difficult to learn as a design tool?
But Paul, your question makes an assumption that it is difficult to learn.  Maybe - for whatever reason - it seems difficult to yourself.  But by comparison to what - AutoCad? Corel Draw? MS Excel? Adobe Illustrator, SolidWorks, Lightwave?  Or are we talking about comparison with Hornby Track Master or XTrkCAD - because these latter are something much more limited in capability.

All I will say is that when I bought Templot, a number of years ago, I had my first layout completely drawn within half an hour (I just checked the timestamps on the files). Admittedly it was not a difficult plan and now I see that there are a million things which are weak about it. But within three days, I posted a double junction .box file on this forum for comments - all partial templates, shoved timbers rolled rail joints and the rest.  By contrast, I have been using XL for at least 15 years and still can't use more than 10% of its features - so I am no genius. 

There have been plenty of posts here over the years which complain that Templot is "not intuitive" but what does "Intuitive" mean?  Our expectations are conditioned by what we have experienced before.  I am just learning AutoCAD having used CV DesignView for nearly 20 years -  for me, anyone who describes AutoCAD as "Intuitive" is bonkers - my son can fly it in his sleep!

I make absolutely no comment about yourself here, but whilst everyone would agree that there is a need for progress in Templot's "instruction book" department, I do think there is a need for newcomers to be prepared to invest a bit of effort - as would be the case with any of the packages I (randomly) named above.  Why do we expect otherwise with a piece of software as complex as Templot JUST because it is aimed at the model railway fraternity?


Best Wishes,


Howard.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 19:31

from:

Paul Willis
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Paul Willis wrote:
I don't think that there is any prototype term in the Templot menus that I don't understand. I know what I want to get out of Templot.

So what is your explanation as to why it is so difficult to learn as a design tool?
Hi Paul,

So where are you getting stuck? I'm sure it can't be much.

If you ask on here, perhaps including a screenshot, someone is sure to help.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

I will do that - I'm just not going to be able to do it for a week or so.  I'll dig out my previous files and have a look.  I'll also upgrade to the TDV first as well, as I'm still on 0.91c.

Cheers
Paul


posted: 2 Jun 2012 20:04

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
But by comparison to what - AutoCad? Corel Draw? MS Excel? Adobe Illustrator, SolidWorks, Lightwave?
I would just add that all those are produced by multi-national corporations, and sold mostly to business customers at business prices.

Templot is produced by one man in a shed, and is now available free of charge.

With the best will in the world there is no way that the support regime and user docs can compare.

And it's more than that -- all those are intended to be used at an office desk, usually for financial reward. Templot is intended to be used in a modeller's workshop, for fun. There's no logical reason why it should bear the slightest resemblance in form or function to any of them.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 20:32

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

 I do hope that you did not think I was suggesting it SHOULD look / be like them - I was just making the point that complex functionality brings in its train an unavoidable learning curve and that all of those packages are very different from each other even at the most basic level. (Lightwave UI does not use a single icon for example) 

Martin Wynne wrote:
With the best will in the world there is no way that the support regime and user docs can compare.
Exactly Martin - but I would disagree on just one point - you do yourself down!  The support regime is first class!  Before now I have posted a query on this forum at 11pm and had a response by 7am the following morning - and a reply from the software creator no less!

I for one do find it fun - I have designed dozens of layouts just for the fun of it!

I do trust that the shed is not too uncomfortable!

posted: 2 Jun 2012 20:43

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
I do hope that you did not think I was suggesting it SHOULD look / be like them
Not you, no. :)

Paul (W) seemed to be suggesting that I should model my efforts on those of TurboCad.

I do haveTurboCad, and a manual for it, so maybe I will look it out and study it later.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 21:13

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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I also have TurboCad. I find Templot a lot easier! I think this is partly to do with the fact I have far more incentive to succeed in Templot than TurboCad. I suspect I'm trying to treat TurboCad like a drawing tool; I know what I want to draw and just want to draw it, whereas TurboCad may be aimed at a different level of need.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 21:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Les G wrote:
I have been in a similar position with documenting a project, and realised that it was not a one man job. It occurs to me that there are two user needs to be addressed.

The first, and most pressing, is to index the wisdom of the forum replies which are available but effectively concealed in volume of material.

The second is to update the content to reflect Templot2.

Perhaps it is timely to marshal the goodwill and talent of Templot users to deal with the first need?.

One way to do this would be to form a squad of volunteers to trawl the threads and identify essential texts.
Hi Les,

Thanks for that. It's a good idea, and I have now created a topic for the purpose:

  topic 1973

If all links are posted there, it will be much easier for me to collate all the material into the A-Z Index.

All contributions gratefully received. :thumb:

There have been some suggestions that members should help create the help content directly. Here I'm very wary, because it could easily lead to hurt feelings. I can't possibly guarantee to include submitted material in the help notes without any editorial control, but that may mean rejecting something which someone has spent many hours writing and gone to a lot of trouble to prepare. I would rather not be put in that position.

But anyone can of course post their own help texts and tutorials here on Templot Club as an attachment to a message, and some members have already done that.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2012 22:47

from:

Martin Dobbins
 
Memphis - Tennessee USA

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I don't have TDV yet because I'm still sorting out problems with the Trojan that caused me to delete Windows Vista to get rid of it.

However, I'm following this discussion with interest because there is lots of information on Templot available but you do have to go looking for it.  I agree with the suggestion that there should be a sort of "FAQ" area prominently displayed on this forum that anybody will readily see as soon as they sign up/sign in.

A FAQ will sometimes prevent people posting obvious questions because they can find the answer for themselves, and it could be arranged into a "how do I?" format.  The FAQ should be free to grow and be editable along the lines of a WIKI so that Martin (not me, the other one) is not the only one doing all the work.  If I pose a question on how pegs and notches work and get 10 replies with useful links to written and video resources as well as answers, it should be edited, condensed and placed in the FAQ perhaps under "How do I join sections of track".  That particular section may be added to or amended when someone else has a question on the same subject that hasn't been covered by the existing information.  All of this could be covered by forum searches but it's fairly clear most people don't have the patience/time for something like that.

It's not the easiest thing to set up and the crowd must be interested enough to participate, but I am optimistic it could work well.  I am not in a position to help out at this time and I am hardly an expert on Templot  (and know nothing about the latest iteration), but in the near future I may at least have some free time to get involved. I do believe this software is fun to get acquainted with and interesting to use.

Martin

posted: 3 Jun 2012 09:26

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Paul Willis wrote:
You've heard from others what the majority of users want to do. Create templates and link them together. Probably based on a scanned diagram.
Hi Paul,

So what's wrong with the 12-year-old tutorial? :

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/tut5a.htm
 

Sorry but it's too advanced. You start off with some plain track - how did you get that? Templot always starts with a turnout. How did you get that nice picture in the background? Too many questions for the first time user opening Templot for the first time.

I think you have to start right at the beginning - Allan Ferguson has done a guide; I would point the beginner prominently at that - perhaps make a video of that guide?

I have previously suggested an opening splash screen on first opening Templot perhaps the splash screen could provide links to Allan's guide (and an accompanying video?)?

I also think that the first time user who enters the web site should have a big, un-missable, button facing them that says "Getting Started with Templot".

Alan

posted: 3 Jun 2012 10:23

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
 if all I want is to stick Peco toy track down this programme is not for me.
I have used Templot for Peco N gauge track, utilising transition curves to great effect. The recently introduced facility of placing vehicles on the track is great when planning double track (especially if you are trying to get the track as close to the 6' way as possible). 
I've tried some of the other mentioned packages but they did not do what I wanted. 
All our model railways are "toy like" in some respect. You may make your own turnouts to an exact match to period and location, but are your curves prototypical?

My motto when writing software was always to make it as flexible as possible because someone, somewhere will always think of a reason to do things you never thought of. So well done Martin, you have made a piece of software with options I will never use, but it is flexible enough that it satisfies my (minority) requirements.
Howard Watkins.

posted: 3 Jun 2012 10:54

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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HI Alan
Sorry but it's too advanced. You start off with some plain track - how did you get that?
When I went to http://www.templot.com/martweb/tut5a.htm the first thing I saw was the video, which, as you say, starts off with a pretty picture on the screen and plain track.  Scrolling down the page does give you very clear step by step instructions to get you going on Templot.

I think the video is intended to show what can be done rather than how to do it, and there is a large splash that says "see how easy it is to create a track plan".  To me, this gives the wrong impression - I wonder if that video should be on that page at all?  Without it, you go straight into how to build a reasonably straightforward track formation instead of trying to follow the video as if it's a tutorial.

Martin has already said, regarding the website, "that the whole thing is a mess".  I think this reinforces the need to draw a line with Templot 2, attempt to get everyone up to that level and start with a clean base line for the website and documentation.  There will always be users who ask "I'm using 0.68b, how do I.....?" to which the first answer ought to be "first, upgrade to Templot 2" so that there isn't a need to try to support users still using old software - that just increases the work load and could result in other members of Templot Club either ignoring the request for help or inadvertently giving incorrect advice because things have changed.  After all, how many other websites will help you with support pages for out of date software? (OK, I know some do, but not many!)



posted: 3 Jun 2012 11:44

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
Sorry but it's too advanced.
Hi Alan,

No need to be sorry. :)

You are probably right, although I wasn't suggesting it should stand in isolation. Don't forget this page has also been on the web site since the beginning:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_firstoff.htm

with various revisions over the years.

The objection to the "track plan" tutorial is not really that it's too advanced (or too basic). The problem is that it is 12 years old and utterly out of date. The question then is whether to adapt and modify it, scrub it and completely remake it, or create something more attractive such as a video or slide show.

I also think that the first time user who enters the web site should have a big, un-missable, button facing them that says "Getting Started with Templot".
On the web site or in the program?

The problem is finding screen space to display a web site and the Templot program at the same time. That's why I started work on an embedded guide which can be easily dragged about, without losing input focus on the trackpad:

2_020954_370000000.png2_020954_370000000.png

regards,

Martin.

posted: 3 Jun 2012 11:45

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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I don't know if this thread has gone off track (sic) a little, but what I am reading now seems to place Templot users almost into two camps. There are those of us who are familiar with the parlance used in describing P&C and those coming to Templot with no knowledge whatsoever.

Now, for myself, if I am going to get involved with a modelling project, I research the prototype, whether it is building locomotives, carriages, wagons, track, signalboxes etc. So are we pandering to those who as mentioned earlier, don't know their frogs from their toads (GWR Brake Van code for our colonial friends), or should it be stated that knowledge of track terms should be known or understood before using the software ? As I've mentioned previously, there is enough information already available in t'interwebland for those wishing to seek this information.

Support is important for new users, hell even I need a helping hand occassionally, but that stems from the lesser used aspects of Templot, and I agree that everyone needs to get onto Templot 2 before this can happen successfully.

Martin is right to point out that he needs to retain editorial control of anything which is written as part of tutorials, guides, getting started, glossaries etc, and this is where, I hope, everyone would agree that for the time being, development work should stop. We have enough new features to keep us happy for the foreseeable future :D

We all need to be singing from the same hymn sheet and then, as Martin Dobbins points out, learning about it can be fun and probably a lot easier for those new to Templot.

Regards

Ian
Last edited on 3 Jun 2012 11:48 by Ian Allen
posted: 3 Jun 2012 12:20

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Ian Allen wrote:
I don't know if this thread has gone off track (sic) a little
It has, but which topics don't? :)

I intended it to be a round-up of experiences with the new features in TDV/Templot2. The answer to that seems to be that everyone is so happy with them that there is nothing to say. :)

So we may as well carry on with the entirely different subject of how to create a new set of user docs and what they should contain for new users.

I will edit the topic title to make it more sensible.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 3 Jun 2012 18:11

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The answer to that seems to be that everyone is so happy with them that there is nothing to say. :)

Of course, I knew that. However it was nice to see so many other people confirming my opinion.

Martin, thank you for creating TEMPLOT for us,

Glen

posted: 3 Jun 2012 20:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Glen Suckling wrote:
Martin, thank you for creating TEMPLOT for us,
Many thanks for all the kind words on here.

But enough is enough. It's starting to get embarrassing. :cool:

Please stick to giving me a piece of your mind about the state of the web site and docs. :)

Martin.

posted: 4 Jun 2012 13:06

from:

Mick Raybould
 
 

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Good Lord is 12 months since I first got the TDV?

I've just upgradsed the system to Windows 7 and I find that the 'F' keys don't work, has anybody else had the same problem?

Apart from that I've made an irregular single slip - no problem.

regards

Mick

posted: 4 Jun 2012 13:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Mick Raybould wrote:
I've just upgradsed the system to Windows 7 and I find that the 'F' keys don't work, has anybody else had the same problem?
Hi Mick,

On a laptop? You need to press or hold down a key marked Fn or something similar to use the F keys. See the laptop manual.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 4 Jun 2012 14:58

from:

Mick Raybould
 
 

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Thanks Martin.

I'm not using hte laptop and don't have an FN Key. The keys work correctly in Word, Excel etc.

It's got me confused.

regards

Mick

posted: 4 Jun 2012 15:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Mick Raybould wrote:
I'm not using hte laptop and don't have an FN Key. The keys work correctly in Word, Excel etc.

It's got me confused.
Hi Mick,

And me. :?

What messages appear when you press the F keys?

Is it all of them doing this?

What happens if you press the SHIFT and CTRL combinations with them?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 4 Jun 2012 18:42

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Mick

Do you have a multimedia keyboard?  I'm not quite sure where that question is going though as you say the keys work in Excel etc. My version of Excel (2007) doesn't seem to use the F keys at all, but to do things like PrintScreen I have to hit the F-Lock key first - this is different to the Fn key on a laptop - at which point the F keys stop working and the alternative functions come into play.

Don't know if this help shed any light or not!


posted: 4 Jun 2012 22:49

from:

Bill Fay
 
 

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Ian Allen wrote:
should it be stated that knowledge of track terms should be known or understood before using the software ?
Ian,

Oh no! That is a very proscriptive approach. I am sure there are others like me who started using Templot with a minimum of trackwork knowledge. I learnt as I went along, without having to ask questions on Templot club. Most of the basic info needed is readily available in the Templot Companion or elsewhere on the site. Gaining such knowledge was a spin off benefit of Templot.

Bill

posted: 5 Jun 2012 11:58

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Bill

I agree with that. I've learnt a lot since getting to grips with Templot, and indeed am still learning. I think the basics (crossing angle, switches etc) can be picked up very easily.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 5 Jun 2012 12:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
I think the basics (crossing angle, switches etc) can be picked up very easily.
Hi Nigel,

I hope so, because the basics are on the very first page of the old Templot Companion, and have been there for years:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_firstoff.htm

The difficulty is getting folks to read it. I've come to the conclusion that a text-based explanation just doesn't work for many people nowadays. It has to be a video or slideshow or some other audio-visual device, and that is a lot of work to prepare, even for the most basic info. I'm not sure I've got enough lifetime left to explain every single detail of Templot that way. :)

But I don't believe you need to know very much about prototype track before making a start in Templot. You can see what's happening as you use the mouse actions, and it takes only a couple of minutes to print out a template and see how it looks. You don't necessarily need to know what the words in the margin mean if you don't want to. Set the gauge, F5 to set the size, F6 to curve it, print now!, and stick the template down. I don't know how any program could make it easier to get started.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 5 Jun 2012 14:34

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
I hope so, because the basics are on the very first page of the old Templot Companion, and have been there for years: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_firstoff.htm I don't know how any program could make it easier to get started.
I've just gone back and looked at that page for the first time in years, and watched the first video, and I find it hard to understand how someone could struggle with getting started in Templot!  It's even dead easy to find from the home page.  I guess it's like you said - the biggest problem is in getting people to read it.  The problem with video tutorials, in my opinion, is that you can't print them out for quick reference!

posted: 5 Jun 2012 18:08

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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The only thing I can see is that F10+ctrl is not correct in the table. It should be swell curve not pan options.

 

Alan

posted: 5 Jun 2012 21:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
The only thing I can see is that CTRL+F10 is not correct in the table.
Thanks Alan. Fixed.

posted: 6 Jun 2012 17:23

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Ian Allen wrote: 
or should it be stated that knowledge of track terms should be known or understood before using the software ? As I've mentioned previously, there is enough information already available in t'interwebland for those wishing to seek this information.
Hello.
       Perhaps it would be better to state research about the subject would make it easier to take advantage of the more complex capabilities of Templot.?
Regards.
Trevor. :)

posted: 6 Jun 2012 17:42

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Bill, Nigel, I appreciate your concern regarding my suggestion, and it was mooted from observations both on here and other forums regarding questions from those asking what a B6 is for example.

As Martin has pointed out, the difficulty has been in getting users to read some of the guides.

Ian

posted: 7 Jun 2012 11:04

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:

I hope so, because the basics are on the very first page of the old Templot Companion, and have been there for years:

Hi Martin

I think that page is fine. It's far better than you get in most software packages, and I think it's the sort of thing that most people would wish software packages had. I'm one of the impatient types who want to get on with doing what I want to without reading much beforehand, and I think that  if I was coming to Templot for the first time even I would read it.

I'm less sure about the contents of the video. I suspect that the natural frame of mind of a lot of newcomers is that they want to produce something which is familiar to them to start with, and I'm not sure a curved turnout, with no attention to other details, takes them in that direction. I think they will want to produce something similar to the turnout plans available from other sources, or similar to ready-made trackwork available from  Peco and the like. In other words, something like a Peco medium or large turnout (note "something like", I don't mean a replica). A video which produces a straight turnout, alters the crossing angle and maybe the switches might be more appropriate. Maybe a second video showing this, or a direct pointer to where example videos of this sort may be found, would be a good idea?

Cheers
Nigel
Last edited on 7 Jun 2012 11:05 by Nigel Brown
posted: 7 Jun 2012 12:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
I'm less sure about the contents of the video. I suspect that the natural frame of mind of a lot of newcomers is that they want to produce something which is familiar to them to start with, and I'm not sure a curved turnout, with no attention to other details, takes them in that direction. I think they will want to produce something similar to the turnout plans available from other sources, or similar to ready-made trackwork available from  Peco and the like.
Hi Nigel,

Thanks for that, but I'm not sure.

My original motivation for Templot was to create curved turnout templates. The startup screen shows a curved turnout for that reason.

Straight turnout templates were available at the time from EMGS, Studiolith, etc, so there would have been little point in writing a program to create them.

Such templates are still available from C&L, Exactoscale, etc., so I'm not sure beginners would regard it as much of an achievement to create a copy of something they likely already have. Indeed, at first sight the Templot templates compare unfavourably with those in that they are lacking the chairing detail.

On the other hand, printing a curved template within 5 minutes of starting Templot for the first time immediately gives a beginner something he can't get anywhere else.

The real problem with the video (and all the videos) is that they are out of date. The menus in the video don't match Templot2, so that's going to be a massive disincentive for someone trying to find their way into Templot for the first time.

The snag is that creating a reasonably clean finished video is incredibly time-consuming. I'm not sure that I can face the task of remaking them all. We may have to settle for a static screenshot slideshow instead. Until then the existing video is the best I can do on that page.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 15 Jun 2012 18:05

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I wrote:
LSWRArt wrote:
Every indexed item should have O(ld), or v2 against it, so we can all see whether the information has been updated, or whether it is likely to have some details which may not match the current version of Templot.
That's a brilliant idea, and so blindingly obvious now that you've said it. :)

I have in fact started such an A-Z Index, see:

 http://templot.com/companion

and I already have a plan to mark entries as beginner, intermediate, or advanced information. But I shall certainly add your suggestion, which I think may help me to advance the project more quickly. I can use similar codes within the existing text as a stopgap before a full re-write, with the advantage that those few hardy souls still using 074b can use the index too.

So many thanks for that. :thumb:

I have now updated the new Templot Companion site with a stab at these ideas: :)
2_151302_220000000.png2_151302_220000000.png
I now need to work through the old pages adding spanners and colours as appropriate.

See: http://templot.com/companion/

regards,

Martin.

posted: 21 Jun 2012 15:38

from:

Andy Vines
 
Market Harborough - United Kingdom

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I am a relatively new user of Templot, I have not really had to ask any questions, I have had a play, I went through the tutorials and videos, and have just recently printed off my first small plan ready to build some track, so there must be a lot right with Templot 2.

I have used the sketchboard, to visualise my basic scenics and will do again in the future.

Once I had got my head round the control template I was away, I think understanding that is the key.



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