Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 2188Prototype Terminology on the VR
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posted: 3 Apr 2013 02:33

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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All,

I have been studying old prototype documents for the Victorian Railways, my prototype.

Some interesting terminology is:
  • Compound and double compound are used to describe what are more widely known as single and double slips;
  • Check rail is used to describe what is more widely known as a guard rail to guide wheels flanges away from hitting the nose of a V crossing in a turnout;
  • Delta - Deltas were a specific unit, they were available in different rail weights and crossing numbers (7.52, 8.7 etc) just like the other crossings. Two were used in a double crossover when the track centres were 11’8”, if the spacing was a little greater then only one was used (the other side had 2 Vs and a K) and if the tracks were widely spaced then no deltas were used.
Are these terms used elsewhere in the world?
Mark


posted: 3 Apr 2013 21:10

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi Mark

The Great western Railway used the terms compound and Double Compound.

Check and Guard rail are still used and are often interchangeable.

I've not heard of Delta or Deltas.

Cheers Phil

posted: 3 Apr 2013 23:34

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Thanks, the colonial government took on a certain I K Brunel as some sort of representative in the old country, maybe he is responsible for the use of compound.

I should have added that the VR was an Irish Standard Gauge (5'3") system thus there was little room to spare when putting a diamond between two 11' 8" spaced tracks.

Mark

posted: 4 Apr 2013 12:36

from:

stadman
 
Exeter Area - United Kingdom

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I've always considered check and guard rails to be 2 different items.

Check rails on inside of curves, through switch and crossing work and level crossings.

Guard rails on bridges and viaducts, to guard against derailed vehicles going over the side. (Or at least minimalize if vehicles remain upright and at low speed).

Kev Staddon

posted: 4 Apr 2013 13:37

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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stadman wrote:
I've always considered check and guard rails to be 2 different items.

Check rails on inside of curves, through switch and crossing work and level crossings.

Guard rails on bridges and viaducts, to guard against derailed vehicles going over the side. (Or at least minimalize if vehicles remain upright and at low speed).

Kev Staddon
Me too, but the VR W&W manuals clearly define everything as different sorts of "check rail".

Mark

posted: 4 Apr 2013 13:56

from:

stadman
 
Exeter Area - United Kingdom

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Mark.
OK, although I didn't realise at first it was Australian (VR)
Each country etc to their own, am only really familiar with UK practices, 30 + years in the industry although not involved with track for the last 20.

posted: 4 Apr 2013 14:22

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Mark.

The joys of the various colonies, then State Governments in Australia.
The style of permanent-way and terminology varied depending
on the system most favoured by the commissioner and his immediate
underlings appointed to run it.

On New South Wales Government Railways it's fun to look at the colour
changes on motive power and rolling stock depending on which,
(mostly English), railway company was most favoured.

NSWGR preferred the term slip as opposed to compound.
Compound crossings had an entirely different meaning, referring to
the type of curvature leading into the crossing.

Kev Staddon's description of Check Vs Guard rails is basically the same
for New South Wales. Their definition for plate-layers was;

CHECKRAILS (NSWGR house spelling) are rails placed parallel and in
close relation to the "running face" of "running rails" to contact with
the backs of the wheel flanges and control the position of wheels.

GUARD RAILS are rails placed between "running rails" at bridges,
openings and through certain over line structures to control the
direction of derailed wheels.

Mark, the Deltas sound interesting. What does it look like?
Is it an attempt to get check rails into the very confined space
of the crossing?

Kev, Australian railways were mostly built to English practice in
the mid 1800's. Most of the locomotives, rolling stock, materials,
track design, lead / turnouts, indeed, the whole kit and caboodle
including the engineers in charge were imported from the
"Mother Country". We didn't have the industrial capabilities
for quite a few years, and then we didn't have the capacity for a while after that.

Regards, Matt M.

posted: 5 Apr 2013 02:13

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Matt M. wrote:
Hi Mark.
..............Mark, the Deltas sound interesting. What does it look like?
Is it an attempt to get check rails into the very confined space
of the crossing?
.................
Regards, Matt M.
I don't have a photo of a delta crossover but there is one in the Train Hobby books taken at Everton.

I do have a model of the rarer reversed version of a delta as per the link.  There was one of these in 1964 right on the main Melbourne Adelaide line at Dimboola, photo of prototype is in the Train Hobby books again.

Mark Bau's VR web site has the Permanent Way Correspondence Course Book 2 which includes all I know about deltas including drawings.
http://www.victorianrailways.net/infastuct/infastructhome.html


Mark
Attachment: attach_1575_2188_P5231568.jpg     298

posted: 5 Apr 2013 06:59

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Thanks for the link Mark. Course Book 2 was very informative.
So far haven't seen anything like the Delta in the NSWGR permanent-way
books up to 1930's.

Matt M.

posted: 6 Jun 2019 09:57

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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I am trying upload drawings of NSWGR turnouts but they are PDFs rather than images, is email an option?  The other option is to re-scan in different format.

Mark

posted: 6 Jun 2019 11:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Laidlaym wrote:
I am trying upload drawings of NSWGR turnouts but they are PDFs rather than images, is email an option?  The other option is to re-scan in different format.
Hi Mark,

Click the Browse or Choose button below the typing area to upload a PDF file as an attachment.

You can have only one attachment per post, so make a fresh reply for each file.

You must enter at least one word of text in addition to the attachment.

It's not possible to post replies via email.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Jun 2019 12:05

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Introduction by Greg Edwards for his book  on NSWGR track.
Last edited on 6 Jun 2019 13:12 by Laidlaym
posted: 6 Jun 2019 12:06

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Plain track drawing.
Last edited on 6 Jun 2019 13:12 by Laidlaym
posted: 6 Jun 2019 12:07

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Points drawings.
Last edited on 6 Jun 2019 13:13 by Laidlaym
posted: 6 Jun 2019 12:09

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Crossings.
Last edited on 6 Jun 2019 13:13 by Laidlaym
posted: 6 Jun 2019 13:05

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Mark,

Did you check with Greg whether or not he would be happy for you to post copies of his work?
He is fairly approachable but is cautious about allowing internet downloadable copies of his
work to exist.

Regards, Matt M.

posted: 6 Jun 2019 13:15

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Good point, I have deleted while I check.
Mark

posted: 7 Jun 2019 15:08

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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Martin,

Greg is happy for his drawing to be used to help with a 1:16 drawing but doesn't want them downloadable by others.  Any suggestions?

Mark in Melbourne

posted: 29 Jun 2019 13:01

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Mark,

I have found this page, which contains links to a huge number of original railway drawings:

 http://www.victorianrailways.net/infastuct/infastructhome.html

e.g.

 http://www.victorianrailways.net/infastuct/W&W_standard_plans.pdf

 http://www.victorianrailways.net/infastuct/aa_fseries/f319.jpg

I don't know if that's relevant here. Knowing nothing about Australian railways I'm a bit confused. The title of this topic relates to VR but your previous posts are about NSWGR. I know there is a mix of gauges and a lot of mixed-gauge track.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jun 2019 13:16

from:

Laidlaym
 
Research - Australia

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That's my normal go to site but it only contains 5'3" and 2'6" drawings.  We are modelling the first incursion of Stephenson's Gauge into the railways of Victoria so I am going with the assumption that they used the NSW (SG) standards.   

A Colin Rutledge gave me the following information and he has the respect of others regarding the construction of this railway.  I am surprised by how tight they were considering this was all new track in 1960.

"The original turnouts were 94 lb rail with 22' 6' blades and a 9.73 vee crossing. This was for both the main line turnouts and the turnouts into the cripple tracks.

When the turnouts were renewed in the mid 1980s they became 60 kg 7 metre blades with a 10.0 vee crossing for the main line and the cripple road turnouts remained the same as they were."


posted: 29 Jun 2019 14:51

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Hi Mark,

Are we talking the run up from Albury to Melbourne?
While I'm not up with the Commonwealth Railway's per-way standards,
by 1960's the Commonwealth would have been using Australian Standards.
The NSWGR would also be using the same.

The application may be different though.

NSWGR is flat bottom, inclined track but not inclined through formations at that time.
Plating through formations are specific to time period and use in NSWGR. Not sure about VR.
Or Commonwealth.

I have to say that 94 lb rail with 22'6" switch and 9.75 crossing doesn't sound standard for NSWGR.
20' switch and 9 or 10½ crossing is more standard. Specials are, of course, done when needed.
30' on a housed switch is also standard.

I admit my knowledge of 1960's per-way is weaker as most of my research is pre 1935.
You would need to find out who was the responsible body for the work (probably an Australian
or State Government department) and see if there are any records left that specify the standards.

Regards, Matt M.



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