Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 2260A user gives up
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posted: 15 Jul 2013 10:59

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Sad to see this post today:

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24919#p24919

I know you can't please everyone, but I would try to help if I could.

Martin.

posted: 15 Jul 2013 11:48

from:

Fishplate42
 
London - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

I can understand the guy's frustration. If it don't 'click' it can be a nightmare trying to understand what you are doing wrong. I paid for a licence a few years ago and after a computer upgrade have downloaded the free version. I have not used it much but am just getting to grips with it - so far so good. With other programs I have got stuck with, it always helps me if I can find someone to actually show me face to face what I need to do. It is the little things that get missed trying to do it remotely.

So far I am very pleased with my progress and a slow methodical approach seems to be working for me. Your explanations are very helpful and if I don't get it first time, a re-run/re-read usually makes it clear.

Having said that I am not too far down the line (sorry!) yet and I may be asking a few questions before too long!

Keep up the good work - Thank you!

Ralph :thumb:
Last edited on 15 Jul 2013 11:50 by Fishplate42
posted: 15 Jul 2013 14:50

from:

wally
 
 

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I had read the S4 post before finding this topic, but what struck me is the fact that (and please nobody take this as a personal attack or slight) he cannot by his own admission get any Windows product to work and has given up on those as well.

Wally

posted: 15 Jul 2013 21:42

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
Does this post found doing a search on templot not provide the solution being sought?topic 1797
trustytrev.

posted: 16 Jul 2013 08:44

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Sad to see this post today:

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24919#p24919

I know you can't please everyone, but I would try to help if I could.

Martin.


Templot does require some understanding of track design and basic alignment design to understand the underlying concepts. Everyone who I have encountered who claimed not to understand Templot also had no knowledge of surveying principles of curve design or track geometry.

Alan

posted: 16 Jul 2013 09:48

from:

Matt M.
 
Australia

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Indeed it does. The layout receded into the distance while I
learnt about the various phases of NSWGR plate laying.

Often people seem to expect to understand both the program
and the the complications of track work in an unrealistic time frame.

"I've just bought Templot, next week I'll finish the layout".

I think set track hs a bit to do with this...

And they quit too fast as well. Possibly the unrealistic deadline.

Don't take it personally Martin.

Matt M.

posted: 16 Jul 2013 11:02

from:

Richard_Jones
 
Heswall - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
Templot does require some understanding of track design and basic alignment design to understand the underlying concepts. Everyone who I have encountered who claimed not to understand Templot also had no knowledge of surveying principles of curve design or track geometry.
Hi,

I think it is really sad that someone has given up on TEMPLOT :( :( :(  as it is such a useful and powerful help to the modeller - I am a fully paid up "Neo-Luddite" :roll: :roll: :roll: but have still managed to complete (with some help!) a (for me) fairly complex layout design and (at least) start construction - my project would never have got this far without TEMPLOT.

As far as trap points - Brighton ones appear to be double bladed, so I've just inserted a turnout and shorten the overal length so that I only get the bits I want!  :cool:  :shock:

As for Alan's proviso (above) -  I would not claim to have that knowledge and would still say that it is  possible to use TEMPLOT without it - like most software (including that designed by the so-called professional (or is it just commercial?) outfit run by Mr Gates) you do need to be using it to become fluent - like a foreign language.

Take heart Martin and carry on the good work! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

best wishes

Richard

posted: 16 Jul 2013 11:05

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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I think Matt has this right - many people (and I don't include John Lewis in this, as he's given it a good go) think Templot is just a layout design package.  That's why I'm not sure it should necessarily be geared towards trying to make that sort of thing easier, but more towards making people think that by using Templot they're shifting up a gear towards prototypicality (if that's a word - the spell-check doesn't think so!)

Cheers

posted: 16 Jul 2013 20:39

from:

PRChappell
 
United Kingdom

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Hi

Richard has just echoed my sentiments.  Take heart Martin you cannot win all the people all the time!!!

If anybody is, or is thinking of, giving up then I strongly recommend asking questions on this group and , if you can, going along to a tutorial or any organised teach in which will help you get going with Templot.

Keep up the good work Martin - we need you!!

Regards

Peter

posted: 17 Jul 2013 13:29

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks for the kind words. I wasn't really looking for cheering up, I know it's impossible to please everyone.

When Templot was paid-for it did bother me if someone said they couldn't get on with it after buying it. That was one of the reasons for making it free to use. I can now adopt a more relaxed "take it or leave it" approach and if someone doesn't like it they haven't lost anything.

Of course to me Templot is all very simple and obvious. I have to work hard to see it as others do and put myself at their starting point -- itself a movable feast if ever there was one.

But over the years I have asked many times for an explanation of where the stumbling block lies, and never really received a satisfactory answer. If I knew that I would try to change things, providing it didn't degrade any useful functionality. It would be great to get a detailed reply saying "I did X, expecting the result to be Y, but what actually happened was Z".

What has happened several times over the years is that a new user has written to me after using Templot for a couple of hours, telling me that the user interface is all wrong, doesn't comply with the Microsoft guidelines, and the best thing to do would be to start again like this...

They may well be right, but if the answer is starting again it will be someone else doing it -- I'm very impressed with what Milen Peev in Bulgaria is doing with SCARM:

 http://www.scarm.info/blog/general/short-introduction-welcome/

No handbuilt track or templates there yet, but one to watch. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 17:48

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
 It would be great to get a detailed reply saying "I did X, expecting the result to be Y, but what actually happened was Z".

Hello Martin,

I would not like to attempt to speak for anyone else, nor to speak for this situation but I wonder if, the clue lies in your statement above?

The problem I have certainly had from time to time is not that "I did X expecting Y" but rather "I would like to achieve Y but how do you do that?"

Thus, I wonder if we are back to the same place as many times before - the programme is fabulous but the documentation...

Ironic really, since most of us (well me anyway) never reads the ****** manual - even when it is provided!  But it is helpful when you get stuck!

Just a thought...

And you are quite right to be relaxed IMHO!


Howard.



posted: 17 Jul 2013 18:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
but rather "I would like to achieve Y but how do you do that?"

Thus, I wonder if we are back to the same place as many times before - the programme is fabulous but the documentation...
Hi Howard,

Well what can I say? The truth is that if I had known how much greater a task is providing the docs than writing the program, I would never have released Templot in the first place. For my own use I don't need docs. :)

But I have started a "how-to" section:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?how_to_do_tasks.htm

What I need to know is what should go there? Nominations invited. :?

Ironic really, since most of us (well me anyway) never reads the ****** manual - even when it is provided! But it is helpful when you get stuck!
The evidence is that very few read what is already there, which makes the task of writing yet more and more of it even more daunting.

But when you get stuck -- Templot Club. That's what we are here for. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 18:34

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Fully agree Martin! In truth most of us bumble our way through eventually but whenever two Temploteers get together the number of time you hear "well I never knew that" tells its story!

For me, the "best things ever" have been the videos - they show an end result and then you can discover how its was done. Better you can keep playing them till it sinks in! Hopefully, for you, they are also easier to make than sitting there banging in millions of words!

Many thanks once again for your continued efforts and keep up the good work!

Howard.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 20:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
For me, the "best things ever" have been the videos - they show an end result and then you can discover how its was done. Better you can keep playing them till it sinks in! Hopefully, for you, they are also easier to make than sitting there banging in millions of words!
Unfortunately not. :(  For me at least they are extremely time-consuming to produce. My raw screen recordings are full of mouse fumbles and mis-clicks, and it takes me many hours to edit them down to a reasonably smooth-running video. And then to add in all the callouts and other notes in the right places.

Then if I make program changes in Templot, a text file can be edited to reflect the changes and any static screenshots replaced. For a video it effectively means starting again. Many of the existing videos are very out of date for Templot2, but represent hours and hours of work which I'm reluctant to scrap.

Also, the software I'm using (Camtasia 5) is very flaky and liable to crash, which can waste a lot of time. It's been that way on three different systems, so I assume it is the software and not me. I can't upgrade to later versions because they don't support the lossless SWF Flash output -- which is far and away the best video format for our purpose. The latest HTML5 video format is not lossless and produces a much worse result for line graphics and CAD screens, and a massively increased file size at the same time.

All of which explains why I tried an alternative slideshow format at:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?fit_turnout_to_existing_curves.htm

It received kind words, but I'm not really convinced -- it's still very time-consuming to do and the screen experience is clunky and confusing compared with simply watching a video.

I've spent many hours on all this stuff, and still not found a format that I'm really happy with.

regards,

Martin.  

posted: 17 Jul 2013 22:25

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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I take your point about the editing issues and keeping these things up to date is always a challenge.  But you surprise me a bit with the techie stuff - For me vids have never been easier - by using Youtube.  
Here is one I did of my signalbox simulation (users said they needed help to get started!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxWWBOV-lHE&feature=youtu.be

It was captured using snagit (which costs about 30 quid), edited using the snagit editor (just re-do the duff moves and cut them out later).  Up loading to Youtube is simple enough - just do it at the highest quality. Of course the viewer has remember to select the higher quality and full-screen at replay, but when you do so, the quality is nearly as good as real life.  The big snag is that users have to access Youtube to see the vids which might not suit your purpose - but it is certainly a very quick and easy route.

But maybe that is the answer. Perhaps it is US as users who should be creating these and uploading these things - but as you have noticed, not many of us are very computer savvy:D.

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 17 Jul 2013 22:31 by JFS
posted: 17 Jul 2013 23:01

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
Do you never think it would be a good idea to recruit some of the more capable users to contribute to something like a Templot wikki/howto on a voluntary basis?If you had the final say on content it would enable you to retain control to your satisfaction would it not.I think your continuous updating means it can never be documented in a fully up to date manner.Perhaps the time has come to delegate to others documentation for what is without doubt a brilliant piece of software beyond compare.I think assisting you in your documentation en-devours is the least some of the many users could be prepared to help with.
Trevor. :)
Last edited on 17 Jul 2013 23:02 by Trevor Walling
posted: 17 Jul 2013 23:28

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
For me vids have never been easier - by using Youtube.  
Here is one I did of my signalbox simulation (users said they needed help to get started!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxWWBOV-lHE&feature=youtu.be
Hi Howard,

I have Snagit and I have tried every setting I can find on YouTube and read all their user guides several times over. Whichever way I try, the picture quality on YouTube for screen graphics is just awful.

Here is part of your video running full-screen on my system:

2_171814_300000000.png2_171814_300000000.png

It's just awful -- I can't read any of it. If I watch a fuzzy video like that for more than a few seconds I get a blinding headache. Sorry, but there it is.

Here is a bit of Jing video which I made earlier today for a reply on RMweb. This is SWF Flash format:

http://screencast.com/t/1MZuniZ3ZjE

You can see how much clearer it is using a lossless format. Jing is great (and free), but there is no means to edit videos or add callouts, so it's a bit limited for anything more than the basics.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 17 Jul 2013 23:50

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
You can see how much clearer it is using a lossless format.

p.s. Be aware that the latest version of Firefox (22) has wrecked this for users on 120dpi screens.

Press CTRL+minus twice on the Jing page before starting the video, to get it back to the actual size. (120dpi Firefox users only).


posted: 18 Jul 2013 01:45

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Trevor Walling wrote:
Perhaps the time has come to delegate to others documentation for what is without doubt a brilliant piece of software beyond compare. I think assisting you in your documentation en-devours is the least some of the many users could be prepared to help with.
Hi Trevor,

I appreciate the sentiments, and we already have two user-created tutorials on the web site:

 http://templot.com/companion/index.html?users_own_topics.htm

I'm a bit wary about throwing it open for more, because it could easily lead to hurt feelings. I can't possibly guarantee to include submitted material in the Templot docs without any editorial control, but that may mean rejecting something which someone has spent many hours writing and gone to a lot of trouble to prepare. I have seen user tutorials which have really got in a bit of a muddle and ended up making things twice as complicated as they need be. Posting them unchanged wouldn't be fair to beginners, but correcting them may be more work than starting from scratch.

But anyone can of course post their own help texts and tutorials here on Templot Club as an attachment to a message, and some members have already done that.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jul 2013 08:45

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:

It's just awful -- I can't read any of it. If I watch a fuzzy video like that for more than a few seconds I get a blinding headache. Sorry, but there it is.

[  Did you select HQ before running it?  It looks better on my system?!!  ]

Well Martin, I agree that your need is for a higher quality than mine, but my screen shot is of a 1920x1200 screen running at 90dpi!!!   From the looks of it, you screen shot is 120 dpi (and on a smaller screen?) so it is just easier to read full stop!

Perhaps a better comparison is on Techsmith's own site with a direct comparison between swf and Mpeg 4
http://www.techsmith.com/tutorial-jing-video-format-swf-mp4.html

Of course swf is better but the Mpeg 4 is not unuseable (but I never get headaches!!).
It seems to me that there has to be some compromise somewhere as the ideal is not attainable - it seems a shame to not have the videos - especially as they are so useful to beginners.

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 18 Jul 2013 08:51 by JFS
posted: 18 Jul 2013 10:22

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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Hi,
People might not know but there is beta experimental version of Firefox called Aurora. I'm on 24.0a - they say it's experimental and might be unstable but no problems so far and faster too.
Stephen
Martin Wynne wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
You can see how much clearer it is using a lossless format.

p.s. Be aware that the latest version of Firefox (22) has wrecked this for users on 120dpi screens.

Press CTRL+minus twice on the Jing page before starting the video, to get it back to the actual size. (120dpi Firefox users only).



posted: 18 Jul 2013 10:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
[  Did you select HQ before running it? It looks better on my system?!!  ]

Perhaps a better comparison is on Techsmith's own site with a direct comparison between swf and Mpeg 4
http://www.techsmith.com/tutorial-jing-video-format-swf-mp4.html
Hi Howard,

Yes, it was in HQ. :)

I looked at your TechSmith link. None of the samples were for line graphics / CAD (which is all that is relevant for Templot), but even so in every case I found the SWF version far more comfortable to watch. I don't mind dropped frames and jerkiness, but I just can't handle anything fuzzy.

You might be interested in this topic (2 pages) which includes some posts from me and some screenshots from Templot:

 http://helpman.it-authoring.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11977

It seems to me that there has to be some compromise somewhere as the ideal is not attainable - it seems a shame to not have the videos - especially as they are so useful to beginners.
The ideal is attainable -- it's SWF Flash. It was originally designed for the very purpose we need (screen graphics) and was working fine for everyone. I haven't said that I'm not going to make any more videos, but if I do they will be in the same formats as before -- SWF Flash on web pages, AVI/TSCC in Camplayer as Windows executables (these can be viewed on Linux by extracting the AVI).

It will then be for those who want to watch them to work out how to do it. Windows 8 users will have to switch to the Desktop format. Apple don't support Flash or Windows AVI at all so users of Apple products and mobile devices will lose out. It's a shame, but there it is -- my resources are limited. I'm not going to use HTML5 video (MP4) for Templot because creating it makes me ill.

But I will try to keep Linux users in mind and possibly create packaged videos for the VCL player using the TSCC codec.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jul 2013 11:59

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Having read the original, my impression is that the user in question may have simply got in a muddle during the printing dialogue. Others in the same boat would assume they had done something wrong and would have played about with things to see if they could find out what; I don't think he has, to any great extent.

The problem may be a bit deeper and maybe a bit more general; how far is he really committed to getting to grips with Templot? Virtually all packages of any complexity need a decent degree of commitment; just playing around with things and hoping things would just work isn't enough. The user needs to feel that they really need the package, and are prepared to stick at it; a proportion of users trying it won't, and I don't think there's anything you can do about it.

It's happened with me with Turbocad. I've had a couple of goes at using it, to see what I could get out of it, and given up. It's not Turbocad, it's me. I don't have a serious need for it (yet), and there are other things where my time is better spent. If the need did emerge, I'm sure I'd be OK, with the right amount of effort.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 18 Jul 2013 16:10

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
You might be interested in this topic (2 pages) which includes some posts from me and some screenshots from Templot:

 http://helpman.it-authoring.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11977

The ideal is attainable -- it's SWF Flash. 
Really good link and an interesting forum - many thanks:thumb:
Trouble is, the world moves on and it is often the good that gets left in the dust - I bought a video 2000 video player because it was clearly the best - anyone interested in 10 kilos of useless plastic?:(
There are many challenges ahead for the small man and none of them of our own making, but more power to your elbow for not giving up:D
Best wishes,
Howard

posted: 18 Jul 2013 21:36

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Hello Martin

My "three penn'orth" to this thread if I may.

I've been in software development and sales for just under 40 years both for a fairly small family run cottage company (after which the computer in 2001-A Space Odyssey was named, three letters, clue- I've Been Married') and in partnership leading a number of government and commercial software projects.

I was mainly customer facing and very often when we were bidding to replace existing software the users had absolutely no idea how to use the system they had been delivered, in some cases after several years of trying. The key was that the software should have been mimicking and improving on what they were already doing manually and relating that to their current understanding was vital to the successful implementation. From my perspective as a moderately competent Templot user, Templot is damned in some people's minds because it is not intuitive to the way they have always done it, i.e. pieces of Hornby second radius curves and right hand points (I know, turnouts). Even when we first had templates (Hamblings, from memory, may have been ERG)  they were for a specific piece of track or pointwork. Plugging pieces of standard track together is not the way the real thing is done (even 60 panels of plain track!).

The secret that unlocked Templot for me was to think not in terms of templates but in terms of the whole track layout. After all, a turnout is actually a nuisance, only there to be able to run more than one train or go somewhere else other than A to B. If newcomers to Templot think in terms of the line of route, then a) they would get the hang of transition curves a lot sooner and b) realise that you design the turnout to fit a specific need. Everything else, for me, drops into place.

Of course, I need help and your help is vital and invaluable - otherwise I would not have been able to complete Brighton-75A. But as far as the videos and user guides are concerned, again my software experience is that the last person to write the user guide is the person who wrote the program. They are just too close to it and, with the most massive respect to software developers, often can't see the users' difficulties. That's why we almost always got the user to write the user guide BEFORE we wrote the program! It was often amazing how little they knew about the job they were supposed to be doing!

What I think I'm saying is that we- the users - should be the ones writing the guide(s) and preparing the videos and I will be delighted to help where I can. Having said that, I have found your videos extremely helpful and easy to follow, and made constructing the templates for some of the knottier formations a whole lot easier.

Earlier this year, my company Acc+Ess Ltd, ran a series of 'webinars' for modellers and they were, by all accounts, very successful. We had upwards of fifty modellers around Europe (I think we had one in the USA and another in Australia) listening and watching and the recordings were put on our website afterwards. I'd be delighted to organise something like that for you, if this is something that can help modellers grasp the basics (and the advanceds!).

After all, if I, a humble and simple computer salesman can understand and use Templot successfully, anyone can!

(p.s. I'm also a dab hand at TurboCad and that took me a while to fathom out too! I've even mastered 3D! Yes, me!)

HTH

Best regards
Tony H

posted: 18 Jul 2013 22:00

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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TonyHagon wrote:
..... my software experience is that the last person to write the user guide is the person who wrote the program. 

I have to agree with Tony H. My experience is not in the software industry but, for the same reasons, the first rule of writing an operating procedure was "Do not let the engineer who designed it write the procedure" They are too close to the subject matter and automatically assume all kinds of things that are completely foreign to the end user.

That being said, I think that Martin is doing a fantastic job. I do not know how he has managed to keep it up for all these years.

Glen 


posted: 18 Jul 2013 22:43

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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TonyHagon wrote:
The secret that unlocked Templot for me was to think not in terms of templates but in terms of the whole track layout.
Hi Tony,

There are in fact quite a few users who simply want to print out construction templates. A curved EM B-7 RH on a radius of 1500mm? No problem. For those who have been building copper-clad or riveted plywood track for years this is their entry point to Templot -- not Peco or Hornby Set-Track, and not full computer-aided layout planning. A beginners guide for Templot must accommodate such users. Starting off with how to insert a running loop in a transition curve is not what they want or got Templot for. Finding a common start point for a beginners guide has been a constant headache.

But as far as the videos and user guides are concerned, again my software experience is that the last person to write the user guide is the person who wrote the program. They are just too close to it and, with the most massive respect to software developers, often can't see the users' difficulties.
I entirely agree and have said so before now. But if not me, who?

That's why we almost always got the user to write the user guide BEFORE we wrote the program!
And that's what happened with Templot. The user was me, I knew what I wanted, and I wrote Templot originally for my own use. When a lot of the core stuff in Templot was being developed 20-30 years ago, there was no thought of making it available for anyone else to use. I think perhaps that legacy is at the heart of the difficulties for other users. See:

 http://templot.com/martweb/templot_history.htm

(Written 14 years ago. Where does the time go?)
 
Earlier this year, my company Acc+Ess Ltd, ran a series of 'webinars' for modellers and they were, by all accounts, very successful. We had upwards of fifty modellers around Europe (I think we had one in the USA and another in Australia) listening and watching and the recordings were put on our website afterwards. I'd be delighted to organise something like that for you, if this is something that can help modellers grasp the basics (and the advanceds!).
Can you expand on that? How does the system work? What do those taking part need? Is there a limit on numbers?

I do have a copy of Team Viewer, and now that Templot is non-commercial I can use the free licence.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 18 Jul 2013 23:58

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Yes, the problem of being an ubiquitous product! And 14 years is a short time when you spend all your time producing it, tell me about it!
 
If I can say where I found the difficulty with getting started back a while ago (three years I see!) it was understanding what Templot was trying to do. I was expecting to see a column of track parts, a right hand point (I use this term deliberately), a double slip or two, maybe a tunnel. I was expecting to pick up a length of track and lay it on a baseboard plan that I had previously defined. If I wanted a wider radius I would simply drag one end with the mouse. (Where is <File><Edit>? Where can I save a file?). Maybe having the computer game Transport Tycoon had set my expectations!
 
What I was confronted with was a vast array of features, many of which I could not understand from the dropdown description (I do now, having used the system to advantage, and obvious when you know). In short, it was daunting and, not being a track expert, I had to spend a lot of time with the tutorials copying what you were showing. The frustration was when things wouldn't go where I wanted them to go because I didn't know what to ask on the Forum. It was no good me entering search terms which would yield meaningful results.

Also, I was reluctant to ask questions as I was nervous about being a nuisance and tying up the expert's time with trivia (not to me, of course). That was a mistake, and the Forum is a significant strength. What is still daunting and difficult to navigate rapidly is the vast base of knowledge on the website. Putting in a search term such as 'platforms' to find out how to use this excellent feature brings up a massive list of entries on the subject. It's great but it takes time to scan and this may deter some. It's a standard problem with search engines, of course, knowing what to ask in the first place.

However, in my beginner phase, I decided to persevere (which is where, I imagine, those who give up decide not to) by plotting several fictitious layouts and a few based on real plans. Visit a tutorial, try to copy what was being described, (realise that I hadn't got the adjacent track main side distance correct -but how to correct it?? I know now...) and the investment in time begins to yield results.

In short, Templot is brilliant and a tribute to your dedication and skill and it is a pity that those that give up don't persevere, as they are losing out. I would say that the entrance for beginners is to follow the excellent guides that you and others have written, but there needs to be a primer even before that.

The webinars we run are based on the Citrix product for which we have a licence for unlimited use, so I guess we could host them for you. We chose it from a number of products including free ones, mainly for stability (although a small number of our guests have reported difficulties logging on, in most cases because they hadn't completed the registration process).  Citrix runs a server, we have the software running on our machine to enable us to be the 'organiser'. The organiser can speak, can hand the 'floor' to another speaker (for example, I am in the north of Scotland, my two sons are in Edinburgh and Bedfordshire and we run the webinar as if we were on the same platform - it's transparent to the user). There is a video facility which we don't use but we prepare a presentation on (in our case) OpenOffice Impress and one of us runs it on our local machine for all the guests to see simultaneously. There are facilities for guests to type questions or to use their microphones to ask questions. These can be private between the guests and organisers or open to all on the webinar. The statistics we receive have been very useful as feedback from the participants. We usually keep the webinar to an hour including questions as this doesn't tie people up for a long time and it means that you can run a number of bite sized sessions which take less time to prepare.  As with me talking Templot to others, I have no connection with the company but a satisfied user!

Long note, I'm afraid, but its aim is to help the cause if possible.

Best regards

Tony

posted: 19 Jul 2013 00:00

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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...sorry to add to last msg re webinar in response to Martin...
our Citrix licence enables us to have up to 200 guests per webinar
Regards
T

posted: 19 Jul 2013 01:03

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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again my software experience is that the last person to write the user guide is the person who wrote the program.
Hi Tony

My software experience (also 40+ years) is that you can't generalise like this. If you have a software engineer who operates at a distance from the users then maybe. However, when the software producer is very much involved with the intended users and indeed starts from the perception of a real need that a piece of software can address, then the opposite can be true.

In Martin's case he's in the unique position of being the (only) person with a comprehensive overview of the whole project, which is why well-intentioned offers to write the documentation for him are likely to end up with as many false alley-ways as relevant routes.

I actually don't think the problem is the documentation. Documentation is never ideal; whether you're talking about Templot or say the latest digital camera you've just bought, it takes a fair amount of effort to gain an understanding of what exactly you can do with the product and how you can get what you want out of it. The basic requirement of documentation is that the information you need is in there, somewhere. You can ease users into it by clearly worked examples, but the overriding need is that the user is keenly interested in getting the product to work, to the point that they will be deeply disappointed if they can't, and they're prepared to put time and effort into trying things out, going back to the documentation for more information, trying more things out, until they get on top of the product. In the case of Templot, I suspect a lot of people who try it don't have that sort of commitment; there are other ways of building a layout, such as P*c*. And for that matter, how many people who start out using P*c* don't actually build a layout?

That's my take, anyway
Cheers
Nigel

posted: 19 Jul 2013 06:57

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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Some good points here and I would like to add another - which I think also adds to the challenge for Martin.

For almost all of us (excepting a small number of track building professionals) Templot is is some thing which we "use once". Certainly, in my case, I have now built my track, and I am now building stock, signals, buildings etc etc. My use of it now is almost zero.

Now I could not have built my layout without Templot (or a lot of hand drafting - which I could not do) so it was worth putting in a lot of investment into get to the point of being able to get a template out. For many people, that level of personal commitment is much harder to justify - for them track is just a means to an end - let alone the means to design the track!.

All we are talking about here is how best to reduce that level of personal investment to the point where more people think it worthwhile before "giving up". And with a programme as complex as Templot that is no easy challenge.

And, truth to tell, despite Martin's best efforts, it is currently a considerable challenge for users for many of the reasons we have been through.

Cheers,

Howard

posted: 19 Jul 2013 10:05

from:

SimonH
 
Launceston Tasmania - Australia

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Evening All

What an interesting thread.

My 2 bob for what it's worth Martin.

I think sadly that Templot is a victim of its own sucess. What started out as a joy to design I suspect has become a bit of a mill stone.

I'm reminded of recently being "goaded" by some Tassie 4mm enthusiasts into producing some 4mm rolling stock. After a couple of months of effort in my "garden shed hobby business" these fellows told me they had moved on from Tassie 4mm to Victorian 3.5mm. I vowed from then on to sell what I liked and produced, rather than what others wanted.

With the greatest respect to fellow users of Templot, discussion threads about: "I wish it would do this" I suspect add to the stress levels, and are not widely sought after by others.

When ever I start a new layout, (now 4, using various versions of Templot) the first question I ask myself is: do I want fabulous super detailed templates or do I want a model railway. As model railways are always a compromise, pretty pictures are quite a secondary need. I just need an out line, a plan of where trains come from and go to.

I suspect the very first Templot I used, I may have used 20/30% of its capabilities. Having just down loaded 207? whilst I in awe of it capabilities, I will probably use 10% of its abilities. To me, even in the very first Templot, a Y point was a left and right point overlaid and build the bits you need. A catch point is nothing more than "insert turnout" and dont build the bits you dont need, and so on. Not pretty but vey functional.

I'm wondering if many others use anywhere near Templot's FULL range of options.

And so Martin I hope you do continue to develop Templot for the shear joy a building a wonderful piece of software, but not to do so, because you feel compelled by others to do it. I think its a wonderful aid to building model railways, and the bits I've used have been of imeasurable help.

Many thanks.

Cheers
Simon Handby

posted: 19 Jul 2013 13:22

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Hi

I think for some they need to see Templot in action, and have a go with someone around that knows a bit more about Templot than them.

I'd be happy to host such an event (say an afternoon), in the Milton Keynes area if enough (but not too many) are interested and all the details could be sorted out.

Richard.

posted: 19 Jul 2013 14:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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TonyHagon wrote:
If I can say where I found the difficulty with getting started back a while ago (three years I see!) it was understanding what Templot was trying to do. I was expecting to see a column of track parts, a right hand point (I use this term deliberately), a double slip or two, maybe a tunnel. I was expecting to pick up a length of track and lay it on a baseboard plan that I had previously defined. If I wanted a wider radius I would simply drag one end with the mouse.
Hi Tony,

Thanks for that.

My usual reaction to that would be that you have come to the wrong program. There are many track design programs based on such "pick and place" methods, but Templot isn't one of them. Programs such as:

AnyRail
XTrackCad
SCARM
Winrail
3rd PlanIt
Cadrail
S21

and several more.

The Templot web site does try to make this clear, but I wonder how many new users do actually read any of it before clicking Download? See:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

So here's a challenge for anyone who would like to help -- write an introductory note to go on that page which explains at the most basic level what Templot can and can't do, and devise a means to make folks read it. :)

But first make sure that you know what Templot can and can't do. :)  Beginners can do "pick and place" in Templot if they wish:

1. click the NEW tool-button.

2. select the required template from the drop-down lists.

3. click the SHIFT F7 tool-button (next to NEW).

4. drag and snap the templates together.

5. click the INSERT tool-button (next to NEW) (orange down-arrows).

6. repeat from 1.

Another way of "pick and place" working would be to load a .box file which puts a row of basic templates along the bottom of the trackpad. Click the one you want next and then copy it to the control.

The moot point is whether beginners should be steered towards "pick and place" in view of the likely unprototypical result. Is it a way of easing them into Templot -- or a distraction from discovering the better and more prototypical methods?  

Where is <File><Edit>? Where can I save a file?
These are on the Storage Box, which is in fact the main Templot window if you want a Windows-style context.

What is still daunting and difficult to navigate rapidly is the vast base of knowledge on the website. Putting in a search term such as 'platforms' to find out how to use this excellent feature brings up a massive list of entries on the subject. It's great but it takes time to scan and this may deter some. It's a standard problem with search engines, of course, knowing what to ask in the first place.
That's why I hope the A-Z Index will make it much easier to find what you want, rather than using Search. Every topic will have multiple entries in the index, so it's not necessary to know the correct words to use, and you can do a search of the index separately from a search of the content. Click the A-Z Index tab at:

 http://templot.com/companion/

Thanks for the info on Citrix. Is it possible for those taking part to show their Templot screen to everyone else? That seems to be essential for helping someone who has got stuck.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 19 Jul 2013 15:56

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
The Templot web site does try to make this clear, but I wonder how many new users do actually read any of it before clicking Download? See:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

So here's a challenge for anyone who would like to help -- write an introductory note to go on that page which explains at the most basic level what Templot can and can't do, and devise a means to make folks read it. :)
Hi Martin

The only thing I'd suggest about that page is that the opening few bullet points may give the impression that it's Templot which does it all, rather than the user doing it via Templot. How about something along the lines of
  • Templot is a Windows program which enables you to design model railway track templates which you can use in the construction of points, crossovers, diamond-crossings, plain track lengths and other more complex formations.
  • In any gauge, on any radius or on a transition curve -- you can produce an unlimited number of different templates, all reflecting proper full-size railway practice. In standard-gauge, narrow-gauge, bullhead or flat-bottom track, and for any period or prototype.
  • Once you have specified scale, gauge, and maybe a few more prototype-related parameters, it takes just a few clicks to produce templates for points and plain track, each  designed for your particular requirements. You can link templates together, even as far as producing a complete track plan for your layout.
Cheers
Nigel


posted: 19 Jul 2013 18:38

from:

TonyHagon
 
Near Wick, Caithness - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
TonyHagon wrote:
If I can say where I found the difficulty with getting started back a while ago (three years I see!) it was understanding what Templot was trying to do. I was expecting to see a column of track parts, a right hand point (I use this term deliberately), a double slip or two, maybe a tunnel. I was expecting to pick up a length of track and lay it on a baseboard plan that I had previously defined. If I wanted a wider radius I would simply drag one end with the mouse.
Hi Tony,

Thanks for that.

My usual reaction to that would be that you have come to the wrong program. There are many track design programs based on such "pick and place" methods, but Templot isn't one of them. Programs such as:

AnyRail
XTrackCad
SCARM
Winrail
3rd PlanIt
Cadrail
S21

and several more.

The Templot web site does try to make this clear, but I wonder how many new users do actually read any of it before clicking Download? See:

 http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

So here's a challenge for anyone who would like to help -- write an introductory note to go on that page which explains at the most basic level what Templot can and can't do, and devise a means to make folks read it. :)

But first make sure that you know what Templot can and can't do. :)  Beginners can do "pick and place" in Templot if they wish:

1. click the NEW tool-button.

2. select the required template from the drop-down lists.

3. click the SHIFT F7 tool-button (next to NEW).

4. drag and snap the templates together.

5. click the INSERT tool-button (next to NEW) (orange down-arrows).

6. repeat from 1.

Another way of "pick and place" working would be to load a .box file which puts a row of basic templates along the bottom of the trackpad. Click the one you want next and then copy it to the control.

The moot point is whether beginners should be steered towards "pick and place" in view of the likely unprototypical result. Is it a way of easing them into Templot -- or a distraction from discovering the better and more prototypical methods?  

Where is <File><Edit>? Where can I save a file?
These are on the Storage Box, which is in fact the main Templot window if you want a Windows-style context.

What is still daunting and difficult to navigate rapidly is the vast base of knowledge on the website. Putting in a search term such as 'platforms' to find out how to use this excellent feature brings up a massive list of entries on the subject. It's great but it takes time to scan and this may deter some. It's a standard problem with search engines, of course, knowing what to ask in the first place.
That's why I hope the A-Z Index will make it much easier to find what you want, rather than using Search. Every topic will have multiple entries in the index, so it's not necessary to know the correct words to use, and you can do a search of the index separately from a search of the content. Click the A-Z Index tab at:

 http://templot.com/companion/

Thanks for the info on Citrix. Is it possible for those taking part to show their Templot screen to everyone else? That seems to be essential for helping someone who has got stuck.

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin..
To make it clear, the above quote from me is what I thought I was getting not what I actually needed which is what Templot provides. And the point I am making is that all these other bits of software do promote that sort of thinking, I propose, to the detriment of good layout making. nullnullThe O gauge layout 'Tregorran' (plan below) features an extremely graceful and in fact beautiful S curve leading down to the station. I would have struggled with a pick and place program to achieve anything approaching it, but with the transitions applied, the result speaks for itself. After all, aren't we modelling to try to mimic reality?? I agree with Nigel that you cannot generalise and I am only speaking for myself and my experience of using Templot. I also understand where Templot is being used for one shot and for that the investment in time to learn it may be an obstacle. I think that the fact that you developed it to do what you wanted it to do is great and, putting aside the fact that it was a commercial product, other users would need to enter that mindset. The difficulty is that this is a complex subject and you clearly have extensive knowledge. The challenge must be to put that knowledge across to modellers who do not possess it.
Regarding the Citrix system, a guest can be nominated as a 'presenter' and the organiser can pass control of the screen and keyboard over to that guest presenter. So if you had an audience of, say, 50, you could invite several to put their screens up for presentation and simply pass control to them at the appropriate time. The organiser is always in charge to manage the session.
(back to cutting up 112 printed templates!)
Regards
Tony
Attachment: attach_1628_2260_Town_map.pdf     222

posted: 19 Jul 2013 23:29

from:

Les G
 
 

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I think Nigel's bullet points make sense:thumb: but to my mind, it is also important for the new user to realise that Templot is, first and foremost, a tool for making track formation templates for scale model railways.  A secondary, emergent, feature is that the Templot club  is also a brilliant means by which one can learn more about railway permanent way.

 But, the most important thing to understand is that success involves the user carrying out, at the very least, some basic photographic research and reading about how railways work(ed), and of the location of the proposed layout. As Martin has already pointed out, (on more than one occasion) there are a number of programs around to cater for the would be builders of set-track layouts.

Templot is a means to an end, designing and building a scale model layout. There are other ways of doing it; eg modified, pre-printed templates from other sources. The new user needs to accept that there is a learning process, and no magic wand!  The reactivation of the index creation project should help us all to help each other and engage productively in some self-help.

I will try to do my bit too.

Les G

 

 

 

 
Last edited on 19 Jul 2013 23:30 by Les G
posted: 20 Jul 2013 16:14

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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This is quite an interesting little debate, but is the question really "what can Templot do / not do"?

For me, the better question is "at whom is it aimed". And the answer for me is (something like) "at people which want to hand-build their own pointwork and require the tools to enable them to design it as the real thing designs it".

I am not quite sure that comes across on the website. The nearest is in the phrase - " ... If you are a builder of model railway track ... ", well, I've come across PLENTY of people who believe they are builders of track simply because they have graduated from set-track to flexy track!!

Now, whilst that would not have weeded out the particular user whose falling-off-the-wagon prompted this thread, I wonder if a few further sentences along the same lines might at least have forewarned him that getting the best from Templot (as opposed to knocking some simple templates out) might need some investment of time?

Tough this one!

Cheers,

Howard.

posted: 21 Jul 2013 09:54

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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Borg-Rail wrote:
Hi,
People might not know but there is beta experimental version of Firefox called Aurora. I'm on 24.0a - they say it's experimental and might be unstable but no problems so far and faster too.
Stephen

Thanks for drawing attention to Aurora, which I hadn't heard about.
Recently I'd started having problems with Flash in Firefox, which I took to disabling at one point, but that just creates another, different, inconvenience...
Since moving over to Aurora I've not had any problems at all so far.
Amazing what we learn via Templot!

Kind regards,
Stuart

posted: 21 Jul 2013 11:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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JFS wrote:
For me, the better question is "at whom is it aimed". And the answer for me is (something like) "at people which want to hand-build their own pointwork and require the tools to enable them to design it as the real thing designs it".

I am not quite sure that comes across on the website...
Hi Howard,

Well in truth, Templot isn't "aimed" at anyone, and never has been. Templot was originally created for my own use, and then simply "made available" for anyone who wants it. Which remains my position today. For example it has never been advertised in a model magazine and it was never actually launched as a product. The only ever advertising as such has been in the Scaleforum guide and on the RMweb forum while it was still privately owned, and that was done more as support for those organisations than as promotion of Templot as a product.

I first showed an unfinished public version to modellers at the Gauge 0 Guild show in Telford in 1998, inviting them to leave their name and address if interested. Even that was not a planned outing -- the stand had been booked for the Hunslet loco as in previous years, and I swapped to showing Templot at the last minute just to see if there really was any interest in it. That produced enough interest to keep me working on a public version of the program for another 12 months, and a few of those who had seen it were frequently contacting me for news of progress. Chief among those was Gordon Ashton, and the very first copy (on floppy disks) went to him in August 1999 without any formal launch or announcement.

Thanks to Nigel and others for the suggested web site wording. I think I will change it to more clearly reflect the above origins. "This is a computer program which I wrote for my own use. You are welcome to a copy if you would like one. A great many model track builders have found it very useful, but it is up to you to decide whether it meets your needs. This web site shows you what it can do".

Hardly anyone will ever read it, so the words may just as well be "Merry Christmas". :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 21 Jul 2013 13:46

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Another one who didn't read the Templot web site, as the reference to AnyRail as an alternative makes clear:

 http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/7mm/message/78456

But a nice response from John Kneeshaw:

 http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/7mm/message/78458

regards,

Martin.

posted: 21 Jul 2013 16:08

from:

Les G
 
 

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:D

Merry Christmas Yourself .

:D

 

posted: 21 Jul 2013 18:05

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,

I think Templot is the best thing since sliced bread for anyone whom is interested in Railway track beyond the basic set track stage in modelling. I find it really irritating that people feel  the need to find fault all the time and complain. How many of these people use the full capabilities of computers they own nowadays? Very few I believe, but I bet they don't stop using their computers totally. They will continue use at a level they can manage a and find it perfectly acceptable. Most of us have learned to do many things with computers now taken for granted.

If development of software had stayed at the dumb-ed down level some seem to believe is acceptable things would not have progressed from the command line and we would still be playing pong on the latest and greatest machines. People have short memories when it comes to technology. Word processors, email, internet, sound editing, photo editing, digital media, etc etc is all considered child's play and normal in today's world.

If people can't hack it when it comes to using something new or different in software it is surely their problem if they lack the motivation or intelligence to learn. My opinion may seem harsh but I believe it is the reality of life that some are more capable than others and can adopt and enjoy change. As far as I am aware Templot is something to enjoy using for its educational side alone. The fact one can use it to make templates of track formations to print out is a bonus. The skill levels required to do the same with a pencil and drawing implements would be beyond many more than currently if Templot was not available.

Mmmm I seem to have had a bit of a rant. I must take my tablets.

Trevor. :)

posted: 21 Jul 2013 18:56

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Well said, Trevor :)  Comparing Templot to AnyRail is rather insulting to Martin, I think.

People seem to want to blame anyone but themselves for choosing the wrong product. Why on earth buy Templot if you just want to plonk bits of Set-track together?  Completely missed the point...

It also irritates me when people moan loudly about something, in this case Templot, on any forum except this one.  How many of these people have come here to ask for help?  I think the front page of the website should include something like "If you aren't prepared to learn, then go away."  For what it's worth, the £40 or whatever I paid for Templot over a decade ago was one of the best investments I've ever made!

Got any of those tablets left? :D

posted: 21 Jul 2013 19:18

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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I agree too,  it is a fantastic program, once one has learned how to use it.  The same can be said for TurboCad, Gimp and a host of other programs.  I can use Templot better than I can either of the other two but then my motivation is higher.

Templot was both a challenge and an answer to my need to be able to design a layout that had prototypical track and or followed a prototypical, real location.  Eventually I got to be good enough to produce a plan for Hitchin.  Anything else I have done since then has been simple in comparison, with the possible exception of Snow Hill, but that's not finished yet.

Nothing worth having costs nothing and the cost of Templot is taking the time to understand how it works, after that it is simple to use.

Regards
Raymond

posted: 25 Jul 2013 16:54

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Hi All

I have only just caught up with this thread, when I first bought Templot, I can't remember when, as few ales have passed under the bridge since then.

When I first opened up I saw the screen with the ubiquitous curved turnout and I thought what the hell do you do with this. I started hitting the dropdown menus to see if this would give a clue, I then contacted Martin who pointed me in the direction of the forum, from that moment it was plodding through the tutorials several times but, I think one of my eureka moments was discovering the 'F' button list and printing it off on A3 paper and laminating it. It's still propped against the wall in front of the keyboard for when I forget what's what. It took roughly three months off and on before the penny final dropped. Since the I wouldn't say all has been sweetness and light, but I can do enough to satisfy my needs and if I get stuck then there are all you folk out there to help.

Thanks Martin.:thumb:

Cheers Phil.

posted: 9 Oct 2013 04:16

from:

julia
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Of course to me Templot is all very simple and obvious. I have to work hard to see it as others do and put myself at their starting point -- itself a movable feast if ever there was one.

But over the years I have asked many times for an explanation of where the stumbling block lies, and never really received a satisfactory answer. If I knew that I would try to change things, providing it didn't degrade any useful functionality. It would be great to get a detailed reply saying "I did X, expecting the result to be Y, but what actually happened was Z".


It's about the paradigm and what you are used to. I use vi and LaTeX for my everyday text editing and processing, tools that many people look at and go "Eh?" at. I have played around with xtrkcad which is a sod to get the hang of, but have got the hang of creating some relatively complex layout designs with it. But as yet, Templot has defeated me. Where as I have been able to RTFM for vi, and LaTeX, or poke and hope with xtrkcad, I can't do that with Templot. The terminology is entirely foreign to me. Peg? Box? Wipe? control template? 
Just saving a simple template is not as simple as File -> Save -> Dialogue box. So every time I decide to give it another go, I have to start again from scratch. 
I don't want to give up, I can see that templot is amazingly powerful, and it's about the only way I am going to get the track templates I need for the layouts I want to do, but I can't get my head round it. I am getting to the stage where I want to offer beer to anyone who can create me a templot template from my map scan... I don't want to admit defeat yet, but I may have to soon.  
J

posted: 9 Oct 2013 10:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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julia wrote:
Just saving a simple template is not as simple as File -> Save -> Dialogue box.
Hi Julia,

Thanks for your comments.

File > Save is on the program panel and the storage box windows, and leads to a standard Windows file dialog. It also has the usual Ctrl+S shortcut:

2_090455_470000000.png2_090455_470000000.png

2_090444_510000000.png2_090444_510000000.png

In Templot2 you can now save just the control template to a .box file without storing it first.

However, you have found a bug, so many thanks for reporting it. If the storage box is empty the above menu items are disabled. This means that the only way to save the control template in that circumstance is via the main > save all templates... menu item on the trackpad. I will get that fixed. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 9 Oct 2013 11:47

from:

julia
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:

Thanks for your comments.

File > Save is on the program panel and the storage box windows, and leads to a standard Windows file dialog. It also has the usual Ctrl+S shortcut:

2_090455_470000000.png2_090455_470000000.png


2_090444_510000000.png2_090444_510000000.png

In Templot2 you can now save just the control template to a .box file without storing it first.

However, you have found a bug, so many thanks for reporting it. If the storage box is empty the above menu items are disabled. This means that the only way to save the control template in that circumstance is via the main > save all templates... menu item on the trackpad. I will get that fixed. :)

regards,

Martin.

This has actually brought up another sticking point, that even after this time I still don't entirely understand the relationship of all the windows. I expected the save features to be on the same window as I had been working in, hadn't even thought to poke around in that other window that starts alongside templot... 
Playing round with Templot, I am still reminded that I seem to have no persistence in my custom gauge setting, and every time I restart Templot, I have to reprogram "custom a" with the settings for H0e. I also think that H0e and H0m are sufficiently standard that they should be included by default, both have a far larger number of users than some of the other gauges that are included by default... 
The rest of my points still stand. I think I need to understand what the terms/concepts all mean, what each of the two windows is used for, what a peg is, the control template, the background template, etc...
I come to Templot seeing it's power and seeing that it can help me with the design of the two layouts I have been thinking of building. The first (being the warm up for the second), is pretty simple, it's got 4 turnouts and 1 single slip. I have a clear photo of the 1:2500 series map of it. I just can't work out how to even start with this layout. Given the bigger layout has something in the region of 42 turnouts...
J

posted: 9 Oct 2013 12:16

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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julia wrote:
...
The rest of my points still stand. I think I need to understand what the terms/concepts all mean, what each of the two windows is used for, what a peg is, the control template, the background template, etc...
...
J
Julia,
Have you looked at the Templot Companion website?
Under the last menu item on the left  - "Old Templot Companion" - there is a page named "gentle geometry".
Amongst other things this explains the peg and the notch.  Much of the support documentation was written for earlier versions, and so some terminology is now incorrect - e.g. control template used to be current template (I think!)  But the peg and notch haven't changed.  Might be worth your taking a look at that particular page at least.
Hope that helps, a bit...
Kind regards,
Stuart


posted: 9 Oct 2013 12:28

from:

julia
 
 

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stuart1600 wrote:
Have you looked at the Templot Companion website?
Under the last menu item on the left  - "Old Templot Companion" - there is a page named "gentle geometry".
Amongst other things this explains the peg and the notch.  Much of the support documentation was written for earlier versions, and so some terminology is now incorrect - e.g. control template used to be current template (I think!)  But the peg and notch haven't changed.  Might be worth your taking a look at that particular page at least.
Hope that helps, a bit...
Kind regards,
Stuart


I have tried the website, tho not for a few months, I gave up as it was all for the old version of Templot and so I would spend half an hour trying to find something that the website was saying, only to find out later it had been renamed or doesn't exist any more. That said, your pointing me at "gentle geometry" page, has at least got me to understand the peg a little bit better, I can move it with ctrl+0-9, tho some of those numbers appear to make it disappear. But even that page details things that have changed, such as "adjust > set peg options". I have now found that (more by luck than judgement) under "geometry -> peg positions" tho even then I have a list of acronyms for the peg positions, which to a novice, make very little sense...
Thanks
J

posted: 9 Oct 2013 13:04

from:

Ian Allen
 
Milton Keynes - United Kingdom

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Julia,

Stick at it. You are obviously intelligent enough to be able decipher it's operation. I've been using it since @2000, if I remember correctly, and although I have used it for some complex formations, there are many aspects and capabilities within the software that I haven't even scratched the surface of. It is an elegant tools and it's continued updates and additions are future proofing it for fellow modellers.

It took me a couple of months working with it to grasp the basics, but once done it becomes intuitive, just like driving a car :-)

Ian

posted: 9 Oct 2013 15:05

from:

stuart1600
 
United Kingdom

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julia wrote: 
That said, your pointing me at "gentle geometry" page, has at least got me to understand the peg a little bit better, I can move it with ctrl+0-9, tho some of those numbers appear to make it disappear. But even that page details things that have changed, such as "adjust > set peg options". I have now found that (more by luck than judgement) under "geometry -> peg positions" tho even then I have a list of acronyms for the peg positions, which to a novice, make very little sense...
Thanks
J
The abbreviations are described on a page entitled "Templot Reference" found under the menu list on the "Old Templot Companion".  But in my, modest, experience of Templot you don't need to spend any time worrying about what most of these mean - I only discovered some of them when I started playing around with partial templates to design more complex formations.
You could just play around with the T-55 curved point to see where the various positions are by selecting them from the Geometry... menu.  I know it's frustrating, but just playing around with the menus in this way is possibly the quickest way of working out "what does what".  I certainly learnt a lot from doing that, and patience is definitely not my strong point!!! 
Earlier you mentioned that your custom gauges were not being retained.  They are certainly retained in the BOX files that use them, although the name in the gauge list remains "custom-a" etc..).  I have some files with both 0-finescale (one of the standard gauges) and 0:16.5 (a custom gauge) and can use either gauge as required with no problem.  If you have some HOe or HOm templates you could save at least one of each in a file, appropriately named, and then ADD those files to any others when needed, or open the file and re-save with a new name to start a new plan - either way you'll preserve the custom gauge settings.  There is probably a neater way of doing this!
Perseverence is probably the most essential quality required of Templotters - but it is worth it.
All the best,
Stuart

posted: 9 Oct 2013 19:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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julia wrote:
Playing round with Templot, I am still reminded that I seem to have no persistence in my custom gauge setting, and every time I restart Templot, I have to reprogram "custom a" with the settings for H0e. I also think that H0e and H0m are sufficiently standard that they should be included by default, both have a far larger number of users than some of the other gauges that are included by default...
Hi Julia,

The custom gauge settings are included in your saved program preferences and can be restored in a subsequent session. To start saving preferences, click this menu item and follow the instructions:

2_091421_480000000.png2_091421_480000000.png

But as Stuart explained, there isn't really any need to do this. The way to save anything in Templot is to store a template containing it. Then you can use that template as a starting point for further design, or obtain the settings from it.

The narrow-gauges aren't included in the list of presets because there are just too many of them, they would bloat the list too much and make it difficult to find the one required.

Also, it is often a battle of wits to get the required data. For example, when modelling Irish 3ft gauge in S scale, what is the correct flangeway gap?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Oct 2013 15:29

from:

gsmorris
 
 

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Hi Martin,

I have found template the best thing in the hobby for years . I travel a lot for work and since 97/11 and other clamp downs taking a small set of tools and a kit have become very difficult. Templot has filled that gap and with endless sitting at airports and stations it has filled much otherwise unfulfilled time!

It realy is not hard to use and does not take much effort to learn or use. Just look at software many of us use every day like Project or even excel other than as a simple data entry tool. and what about all the trade specific software we use?. Keep up the good work and I still think you should be charging for your efforts and time martin..

George Morris



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