Andrew Barrowman wrote: "wouldn’t a single wheel set have the job?"

We tried that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennie_RailplaneHello Andy
This story is a bit of sad one, but I must say it was also an eyesore. Just imagine one of those slung above our railway lines, worse even than the catenary system, which is pretty ugly. But who would have guessed....

Just for clarity, I meant a conventional wheel set straddling two rails, that might have served almost as well. But seriously, probably not! 

Kind regards 
Andrew

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Tony W wrote: Andrew Duncan wrote: Tony W wrote: Hi Andrew.
I sometimes wonder just how many of those Triang clerestories were butchered in an attempt to produce something reasonable, it must be hundreds if not thousands. My friend Mike Sargent who was hoping to build a model of Pen Mill in P4 produced a couple of decent looking coaches that way and they still do valiant service on Bodmin.

Regards
Tony.
Hello Tony
Good to hear I’m in such exhaulted company with the clerestories. If Mike was planning on building Pen Mill in P4, he must have had a very large space. Do you recall just how big it was going to be?

Kind regards 
Andrew


Hi Andrew.
Referring back to an earlier post, short Dean bogies were 6'4" wheelbase (I had to look it up but 6'6" didn't sound quite right) and they always looked rather odd to me under a passenger vehicle.
When it comes to things Great Western, I have to confess that I am speaking largely from a position of ignorance, my true allegiances lying somewhat further east. Because I have been involved with the North London Group's Bodmin layout for so long people tend to make the not unnatural assumption that I must be a fan of the GWR (although something must have rubbed off). In truth I made a far larger physical contribution to the group's previous layout Heckmondwike (LMSR) than I ever did Bodmin. There were enough true GWR devotees in the group for that. My total contribution to the rolling stock was a Ratio brake van and an ex Heckmondwike Ratio LMS box van. That is not to say that I like the layout any the less, I wouldn't have spent so many hours helping to keep it going if I hadn't.

Regarding the Triang clerestories, I remember seeing numerous articles in the model railway press during the 1960's detailing various conversions people had done with them.

Regarding Mike's plans for Pen Mill, I'm afraid that is as far as his project ever got. It was basically his pipe dream, much as Brimsdown was mine for many years. Mike had a modern house in Potters Bar with a built in garage barely big enough for a car let alone a decent layout. The car spent most of its time on the drive. After Bodmin Mike started a smaller P4 layout he called Pen Till using the stock intended for Pen Mill. The layout developed sufficiently that it was exhibited several times.  I think he hoped to move to a house with a railway room when he retired, but unfortunately developed Hodgkins lymphoma, a form of cancer and his dream died with him. This is partly why I have more than a passing interest in your project.
For many years the NLG used to award a Pen Till trophy in his memory to those the committee considered had made a major contribution to the NLG and P4.

Regards
Tony.
Has anyone ever produced etched sides for the Triang coaches ? either as they are or cutting and shutting them to a correct length, or even doing the same for the newer versions.
Or did the Slaters coaches negate the need to

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Tony W wrote: Andrew Duncan wrote: Tony W wrote: Hi Andrew.
I sometimes wonder just how many of those Triang clerestories were butchered in an attempt to produce something reasonable, it must be hundreds if not thousands. My friend Mike Sargent who was hoping to build a model of Pen Mill in P4 produced a couple of decent looking coaches that way and they still do valiant service on Bodmin.

Regards
Tony.
Hello Tony
Good to hear I’m in such exhaulted company with the clerestories. If Mike was planning on building Pen Mill in P4, he must have had a very large space. Do you recall just how big it was going to be?

Kind regards 
Andrew


Hi Andrew.
Referring back to an earlier post, short Dean bogies were 6'4" wheelbase (I had to look it up but 6'6" didn't sound quite right) and they always looked rather odd to me under a passenger vehicle.
When it comes to things Great Western, I have to confess that I am speaking largely from a position of ignorance, my true allegiances lying somewhat further east. Because I have been involved with the North London Group's Bodmin layout for so long people tend to make the not unnatural assumption that I must be a fan of the GWR (although something must have rubbed off). In truth I made a far larger physical contribution to the group's previous layout Heckmondwike (LMSR) than I ever did Bodmin. There were enough true GWR devotees in the group for that. My total contribution to the rolling stock was a Ratio brake van and an ex Heckmondwike Ratio LMS box van. That is not to say that I like the layout any the less, I wouldn't have spent so many hours helping to keep it going if I hadn't.

Regarding the Triang clerestories, I remember seeing numerous articles in the model railway press during the 1960's detailing various conversions people had done with them.

Regarding Mike's plans for Pen Mill, I'm afraid that is as far as his project ever got. It was basically his pipe dream, much as Brimsdown was mine for many years. Mike had a modern house in Potters Bar with a built in garage barely big enough for a car let alone a decent layout. The car spent most of its time on the drive. After Bodmin Mike started a smaller P4 layout he called Pen Till using the stock intended for Pen Mill. The layout developed sufficiently that it was exhibited several times.  I think he hoped to move to a house with a railway room when he retired, but unfortunately developed Hodgkins lymphoma, a form of cancer and his dream died with him. This is partly why I have more than a passing interest in your project.
For many years the NLG used to award a Pen Till trophy in his memory to those the committee considered had made a major contribution to the NLG and P4.

Regards
Tony.


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Strictly speaking the Dean "bogies" were trucks; I don't think they had a central pivot. Nothing wrong in principle with a 6' 4" truck; remember Collett produced 7' bogies for much longer vehicles, after experiments with ride. With longer vehicles Dean moved to an 8' 6" truck, then 10' for the longest. I believe the trucks had a reputation for a comfortable ride.

Here's a pic of a D15 brake third in 3mm/ft with the 6' 4" truck:


Nigel

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Nigel Brown wrote: Strictly speaking the Dean "bogies" were trucks; I don't think they had a central pivot. ...

NigelThis seems to be a common misconception, as is the commonly used description of them being "centreless". The critical point is that there is no weight carried by the central pivot that fixes the centre of rotation of the bogie. I have heard that the only true centreless bogie may have been that fitted to Dean's experimental 4-4-0T no. 1 but I haven't seen a GA drawing to confirm this. The scan below is from P. Kay's reprint of Sidney Stone's "Railway Carriages & Wagons, their design & construction" of 1903 and shows the central pivot - more clearly in the lower figure.
I've recently had "fun" building a wagon with bogies suspended on this principle - but with lockdown I've yet to be able to test it: I need to do some new layout planning (with Templot) and start baseboard construction...


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Hi Nigel,

I may be wrong as this isn't a strong point but if my memory serves
Dean bogies have a central pivot. They don't bear on it unlike the more usual
bogie designs. Dean bogies are about the secondary suspension.
The full name that I know is Dean Hung Suspension Bogies.

You have two fixed bolsters that are attached to the underframe of the
carriage at each end by a hefty post.
These bolsters ride on volute springs. Two on each side became standard to help
with higher speeds as the early ones had stability problems over 55 mph.
So eight in all. These springs not only carry the weight of the vehicle but
also dealt with the turning and lateral displacement of the bogie truck.
They are connected to the bogie frame by hanger bolts that transmit the
loads to brackets mounted on the bogie solebars. The hanger bolts have spherical
bearings at each end.

Effectively the carriage body becomes the bolster.

He had two distinct suspension designs. Inner and outer.

The outer ones are referred to as centreless but that refers to the lack of bolster,
not guide pin. (As just pointed out by a_nummelin jn his post).
The outer units had restrictions with longer bogies as they interfered with the amount
of pivot so fell out of favour with the development of longer coaches and matching
longer bogies.

Hope this is of use. Matt M.
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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Andrew,

Slaters originally designed and produced a fair bit of 4mm scale rolling stock but, as I understand it, they really wanted to stay true the 7mm range. Some of the 4mm range was stopped for a while and then C&L ( quite a few owners ago ! ) purchased the moulds for the Midland and private owner wagons and they thus appeared on the market branded as a C&L product. A while later Coopercraft ( originally of London but later in Somerset ) relaunched some coach kits previously mastered by Slaters - including the Dean clerestories.

Soon there were issues with the supply of anything from Coopercraft ( which by this time also included products previously sold under brand names such as Ian Kirk and Mailcoach ). RMweb has lots of posts describing unfulfiled orders and lack of refunds. The website is still up and running even to this day but DO NOT order anything unless you wish to say goodbye to some money.

The original and essential Coopercraft GWR rolling stock range was mastered by the original owners in London and is really the only way to get plastic injection moulded stuff that looks good and suits the early ( 1900-> ) GWR periods. I assume the moulds are in Somerset but would be better off with somebody would could get the kits back on the market.

I would be happy to have some of your kits but you won't get them back

There is a Mallard 57' railmotor kit on Ebay today - bidding starts at £99.00, now where did I put my three unbuilt ones ?

Rob


Hello Rob

Thank you for the story behind the the Slaters and Coopercraft history. I did look , albeit briefly on Slaters a few days ago and didn't see the Deans, or the Toplights for that matter, but thats probably not a bad thing in view of my previous comments.

Did a bit more wring up of the hidden tracks yesterday between packing parcels of Riedel Glasses!

Kind regards
Andrew

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Hayfield wrote:

Has anyone ever produced etched sides for the Triang coaches ? either as they are or cutting and shutting them to a correct length, or even doing the same for the newer versions.


Hello John
Yes for the newer version that have no relief panelling there is company that still produce them I believe, in fact in my kit pile I have a few. I built one of them a few years ago and found them very good . One needs to be a bit brutal with the original coach and I cant now remember how far i went i detailing it, but I do recall being pretty satisfied with end result. If I get  spare moment I'll have a dig around in my pile and if I can see the name.

Kind regards
Andrew


sorry about the formatting, didnt have time to change it.

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I think the Coopercraft problems relate to the current owner who never really got things moving after he took things on. I too lost some money by ordering stuff which he seemed incapable of fulfilling but also seemed incapable of issuing refunds.

A pity, there's some good stuff there. He also has the Blacksmith/Mallard kits.
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About the only thing that you can get from him are the Blacksmith etches, but I would advise that you only make your purchase at a show that he's at, the only one that I know that he attends is RailWells in August, once exhibitions restart.

Cheers

Phil.
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Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Rob
  I did look , albeit briefly on Slaters a few days ago and didn't see the Deans, or the Toplights for that matter, but thats probably not a bad thing in view of my previous comments.

Kind regards
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
This is from the current Slaters list.



It seems a fair bet that NYA means 'not yet available'.

Rob

P.S. for Phil - I have never been to Railwells and have purchased from Paul Dunn's stand. I will post the location if I remember !

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Nigel Brown wrote: Strictly speaking the Dean "bogies" were trucks; I don't think they had a central pivot. Nothing wrong in principle with a 6' 4" truck; remember Collett produced 7' bogies for much longer vehicles, after experiments with ride. With longer vehicles Dean moved to an 8' 6" truck, then 10' for the longest. I believe the trucks had a reputation for a comfortable ride.

Here's a pic of a D15 brake third in 3mm/ft with the 6' 4" truck:


Nigel
Hello Nigel
Thats a beautiful  little model, is it yours, and if so have you a later finished version of it? I have one , unbuilt from Blacksmiths, in my stash. A very attractive cosy little coach!

Andrew

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Hi Nigel,
Nice little coach - agree with Andrew. Does the lack of a central pivot mean the "bogies" are actually radial trucks as used by the LNWR and Metropolitan for example. I assume they have a side control mechanism that allows them to move laterally into a curve. Must check my sources - I feel I should know this

Rob


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message ref: 31624

HI Rob,

Your questions about the bogies was answered by myself and a_nummelin who
also posted drawings to help explain. The Dean bogie has a pivot.
It just doesn't bear any weight in the vertical plane.

Regards, Matt M.
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Andrew Duncan wrote: Nigel Brown wrote: Strictly speaking the Dean "bogies" were trucks; I don't think they had a central pivot. Nothing wrong in principle with a 6' 4" truck; remember Collett produced 7' bogies for much longer vehicles, after experiments with ride. With longer vehicles Dean moved to an 8' 6" truck, then 10' for the longest. I believe the trucks had a reputation for a comfortable ride.

Here's a pic of a D15 brake third in 3mm/ft with the 6' 4" truck:


Nigel
Hello Nigel
Thats a beautiful  little model, is it yours, and if so have you a later finished version of it? I have one , unbuilt from Blacksmiths, in my stash. A very attractive cosy little coach!

Andrew
Here's a pic of it painted:

Not exactly finished; it needs the insignia for a start.

Nigel

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Matt M. wrote: HI Rob,

Your questions about the bogies was answered by myself and a_nummelin who
also posted drawings to help explain. The Dean bogie has a pivot.
It just doesn't bear any weight in the vertical plane.

Regards, Matt M.Hello Matt and Andrew (Nummelin)
Thank you both for your full explanations of the Dean Bogie system, you obviously know a thing or two about the subject. Real education! 

Kind regards 
Andrew

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Here's a pic of a D15 brake third in 3mm/ft with the 6' 4" truck:m


Nigel
Hello Nigel
Thats a beautiful  little model, is it yours, and if so have you a later finished version of it? I have one , unbuilt from Blacksmiths, in my stash. A very attractive cosy little coach!

Andrew
Here's a pic of it painted:

Not exactly finished; it needs the insignia for a start.

Nigel
Hello Nigel
Thanks for posting the photo of the almost complete coach. Bags of character and nicely done. What sort of couplings are you using incidentally? 
Kind regards 
Andrew

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Hi Andrew,

After ten years of sorting New South Wales Mechanical Branch drawings
I started to be asked all the horrible technical questions by modellers.

The bogies are of interest as the NSWGR produced about 52 varieties
of four wheeled and 6 wheeled bogies between 1874 and 1964.
And I get asked about them by model manufactures as to what
goes under what in a given period, (they change and move around).

And when you look for the changes that are cosmetically obvious you
also start to appreciate the engineering behind the design.

I had to do the Dean stuff from memory as I was time short and couldn't
find either my copy of Sidney Stone's opus or a presentation paper on bogie
design from the late 1950's I think by W. S. Graff-Baker which is fascinating
reading in its own right.

The problems they have to overcome to get rolling stock to track straight
and true are phenomenal.

Glad it was of help and interest.

Enjoying your build.

Matt M.
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Matt M. wrote: Hi Andrew,

Glad it was of help and interest.

Enjoying your build.

Matt M.Thanks Matt, it was indeed.!
As it's Christmas Eve, I'd like to thank everyone who reads this thread, and indeed those of you who join in, for making the contribution to this layout's success. By this I mean roughly two things. 

Firstly its very encouraging  seeing that others are interested in what I am doing and this helps spur me on especially at the low moments. And secondly, in a practical sense I've often been guided on best practice principles and or reminded about pretty basic stuff, to avoid future mishaps. A good example of this, a page or so back, was Tony reminding me not to lay a very long length of continuous unbroken rail to avoid expansion problems. This was good advice and although it wasn't new news to me (I've been dabbling in model railways since i was a boy) I was so concentrated on finding a way to make a continuous reliable 3'6" curve, thoughts of gapping to allow for expansion went right out of my head. 

So thanks everyone for reading about my progress and the feedback. You make it very enjoyable for me.

Happy Christmas to you and I hope for an easier 2021!

Kind regards
Andrew

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A bit more progress this afternoon whilst the family were playing cards...

The first photo shows the line running under the station forecourt largely complete.



The second one shows the main station forecourt board installed again.



The third some of the scenery and platforms back in place




And the forth the bridge is back and it occurred to me that you can see the layers of construction  pretty clearly. The 43xx Mogul, just clears the underside of the board that holds up the bridge. Was this good judgement or luck...?



Happy Christmas 
Andrew

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Hi Andrew,
If you put a small model roof onto the upper ends of the spur uprights, you could produce some slightly odd-looking white buildings. 😒

John
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Unusual idea John.....I’ll need to think that one through!


Hello John ( Hayfield) 
The coach sides you were asking about and that I was referring to are actually 247 Developements which I’d completely forgotten and was rarher surprised to see....!
Below a couple from my unbuilt pile!





Kind regards
Andrew

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Andrew

Thanks for the update, I had a quick look at the 247 website, which seems to be in development (coach section unattached/no internal link) and sadly they seem no longer available
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Andrew Duncan wrote: Nigel Brown wrote:

Not exactly finished; it needs the insignia for a start.

Nigel
Hello Nigel
Thanks for posting the photo of the almost complete coach. Bags of character and nicely done. What sort of couplings are you using incidentally? 
Kind regards 
Andrew
On the pic the pockets for the scroll irons look a bit heavy; in the flesh I don't notice them.

The couplings are B&B, which I like a lot. They can be a bit fiddly to assemble but I find one soon gets the hang of them. If one isn't going to turn stock it's possible to simplify the process by having a loop at just one end and the remote uncoupling latch at the other. If one isn't interested in the remote uncoupling feature (which allows you to uncouple at one spot then push the vehicle to where you want it) then you can omit the latch entirely. The couplings come ready-blackened, which is useful.

Nigel

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Nigel Brown wrote:
On the pic the pockets for the scroll irons look a bit heavy; in the flesh I don't notice them.

The couplings are B&B, which I like a lot. They can be a bit fiddly to assemble but I find one soon gets the hang of them. If one isn't going to turn stock it's possible to simplify the process by having a loop at just one end and the remote uncoupling latch at the other. If one isn't interested in the remote uncoupling feature (which allows you to uncouple at one spot then push the vehicle to where you want it) then you can omit the latch entirely. The couplings come ready-blackened, which is useful.

Nigel

Hello Nigel

Thanks for your answers and thoughts on the B&B couplings. I’m going to show my ignorance here and ask you to either remind me or tell me what the scroll irons are. I’ve a dim memory that I shouldn’t need to be asking this question but can’t for the life of me remember ( or perhaps ever knew) what they were?

Many thanks Andrew

Here are a few pictures of progress today ....
The curved track that runs below the MPD and branch line out of place during track laying. 



The junction board just put back in place which, along with its neighbouring MPD board when I replace that as well, will allow me to 
The check clearances with the hidden tracks



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message ref: 31696

Hi Andrew,

I have copied your photos to the new Templot Club site:

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?media/categories/posted-attachments.2/

because it is now too late to include them in the archived gallery here.

It's likely that your post here will be the very last one on this old Templot Club site, unless someone gets in very quick.

Martin.

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Well done Andrew, maybe the last post is yours.....

Rob


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message ref: 31698

Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Andrew,

I have copied your photos to the new Templot Club site:

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?media/categories/posted-attachments.2/

because it is now too late to include them in the archived gallery here.

It's likely that your post here will be the very last one on this old Templot Club site, unless someone gets in very quick.

Martin.
Hello MartinHave i missed something....?

Andrew

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Andrew Duncan wrote: Hello Martin

Have I missed something....?

Andrew
Hi Andrew,

Maybe?

See:

https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3837&forum_id=2

https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3844&forum_id=1

cheers,

Martin.

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