Templot Club Archive 2007-2020
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posted: 3 Jul 2015 20:36 from: Martin Wynne
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Dear all, Long-standing members will sigh to see yet another post in which Martin agonises about the Templot documentation. We have been here before with numerous false starts and second thoughts, and we are no further forward.  Today I have been surveying all through the Templot web site, and really it is an awful mess, having developed piecemeal over 15 years or more. There is no overall structure or plan at all, and great swathes of it are out of date. It is not surprising that beginners find it so difficult to find information. For me creating the Templot program itself is a piece of cake compared with the task of writing and maintaining the documentation for it, and I have to concede that I have failed miserably in that regard. My only consolation is that nowadays no-one is paying me for any of it. Here is a run through the present state of affairs: 1. First there is the original Templot Companion web site. Mostly written 15 years ago and barely updated since, including some lengthy static tutorials. Large parts of it are now out of date, or have been overtaken subsequently by many new features and functions. But it still contains more information in one place than anywhere else: 2_031328_430000000.png  It's here: http://templot.com/martweb/templot_gs.htm 2. A few years after that, I started creating the Camtasia downloadable videos. They are also mostly out of date. There is a partial list of them on this page: 2_031328_430000001.png  It's here: http://templot.com/martweb/video_list.htm 3. As the old versions developed I created two long pages explaining all the additional features introduced. Those pages contain masses of information which has never been linked in anywhere else: 2_031328_430000002.png  Find them here: http://templot.com/martweb/pug_info.htm 4. Separately from all that, the Templot program itself has always contained some lengthy Help notes on the various functions and settings. But none of that is integrated with any of the above, apart from some instructions to "click the Help button". Which may or may not help, because a great many of those buttons and links still do not go anywhere. Including the "more information online" links: 2_031328_430000003.png  5. Frequently in answering questions on here I have created short Jing videos. There are dozens of them, and even I don't know what the later ones are about. The only way to find out is to play them and see, they are all still available: 2_031328_430000004.png  Jing videos are short and scruffy to watch because they were all created quickly without any editing, while writing replies on here. Screencast.com don't provide any editing function for the free Jing service. For some reason I seem to have two Jing accounts. The earlier videos are here: http://www.screencast.com/users/martin_wynne/folders/Jing And the later ones here: http://www.screencast.com/users/MartinWynne/folders/Jing Six years ago Dave Summers very kindly compiled a descriptive clickable index for the earlier ones. His list is here in PDF format: http://85a.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?id=582 6. A great deal of information has appeared here in Templot Club messages and nowhere else. This includes the details of some new version features. For example here are some details of the new functions introduced in the old version 091c: 2_031329_240000000.png  That topic is here: topic 330 And likewise for 091b: topic 113 7. Similarly for Templot2, a very long list of new features is detailed on the change log page: 2_031329_240000002.png  That page is here: topic 1511 - message 9413 8. Then more recently I have been creating video tutorials in FBR format. These are accessed from within the program rather than the web site: 2_031329_240000001.png  9. And finally there is the new Templot Companion web site and A-Z index. This looks good, but as you will know if you have visited it, there is very little actual content there as yet. The plan is that all the above information, including hundreds of updated screenshots and dozens of web pages and videos, should eventually be integrated into it, including most importantly the A-Z Index. Not forgetting of course all the new pages, videos and tutorials needed for Templot2: 2_031329_240000003.png  2_031338_590000000.png  That's here: http://templot.com/companion/ That's enough for one message, and just thinking about all that needs to be done has made me tired.  I will post some further thoughts and ideas later. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 04:26 from: Martin Wynne
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So where next? It's clear that many users, perhaps most, prefer to watch a video rather than read lengthy text-based explanations on web pages. But there is no way I can do both (and keep them up to date). There is only so much time in one lifetime. Fortunately the FBR videos have allowed me to combine the two in a stop-start interactive format, which many users seem to like. Certainly the single-slip video which I produced last autumn was well received. So I'm minded to use this FBR format for most of the new content, with only the more advanced technical stuff on static web pages. But that's not without its problems, the web video formats being in such a mess. FBR videos can't play directly on web sites, except on Linux systems. So at present we are running the few FBR videos made so far from within Templot itself on the watch a video menu list: 2_031329_240000001.png Which is fine as far as it goes, but clearly it is not suitable as a long-term arrangement. As the list grows it will become unmanageable, and none of it is properly indexed or integrated with the Templot Companion. Fortunately EC-Software have recently developed an improved embedding option for web sites, which means the Templot Companion can be delivered with Templot and run directly from within the program instead of in your browser: 2_031329_460000000.png  This has several advantages. The FBR videos, and any other tutorial utilities I might write, can be run directly from here without needing to be downloaded. The window can be resized and dragged around in front of the trackpad without affecting your main browser, and context help notes such as these: 2_031328_430000003.png can appear directly in it without needing to be modal. They can thus be included in the A-Z index with all the other content. The big snag is that this format won't run on Linux/Wine/CrossOver systems. But I have been able to create an alternative viewer which will run on such systems. It is not so neat-looking as the above format, but it can display all the same content and working links: 2_031329_460000001.png  No doubt if I spend more time on it I can get it looking a bit better. This is only for Linux/Wine/CrossOver users, so it would be helpful to know just what percentage of users that represents. It would be silly to spend masses of time on it if it is only a handful of users. On the other hand I get the impression this is now a popular way of running Templot, especially on Mac computers. Which brings me to the next problem -- there are reports that FBR videos won't run on Mac computers. And of course they won't run on mobile devices and smartphones. Fortunately I can upload FBR videos to FlashbackConnect and they then become available as streamed MP4 videos which will play on any device, and hopefully preserve the interactive pause-restart features. The image quality is degraded somewhat for MP4, and the file size is massively increased, consuming your data bandwidth in the process, but that seems to be the way Apple want it. Here is the single-slip video in MP4 format if you would like to see it. It should display on any computer or device anywhere, and automatically pause in places. After which you will need to tap the playback button (ignore the notes to click on the video): http://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=RxdwQczwCvgPpdDu1OJJhA2 You might like to compare it with the FBR version at help > watch a video > single slip menu item. The good news is that I need to write the content only once for all of the above options. Creating the various formats is just a matter of changing a few settings and clicking a few buttons. So the next program update is likely to include some tests of the above features. If we can finally get the vexed question of formats settled, I can get on and create more of the new content. I've been holding back on that for fear the formats will have to be changed at some later stage and it will all have to be done yet again. I would have preferred to have gone ahead using Flash video, but it is increasingly clear that Adobe Flash is being killed off, not least by Apple. None of the above requires Flash. Thanks for reading, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 15:37 from: keithj15
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Dear Martin, Thankyou for posting the links to all the help notes and videos, especially the Jing resource which I had forgotten about. tt wil be good to get away from the flash format, I already play stuff on my iPad whilst working in Templet on my MacBook Pro — a boon when trying to "play along" without closing windows etc and a big hand to you and all the club members for all the help, information — and entertaining reading! Best regards Keith |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 16:08 from: Martin Wynne
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keithj15 wrote: Thank you for posting the links to all the help notes and videos, especially the Jing resource which I had forgotten about.Thanks Keith. You are not the only one. Some of them are out of date, but others are still entirely valid. For example this one from 2009 shows the difference between CTRL+F6 snake, F9* slide, CTRL+F9 roam, CTRL+F5 orbit, mouse actions. It may take a short while to load: *The difference of course is that the slide mouse action is now on SHIFT+F9, which illustrates how much work is needed in getting the old stuff up to date. (It was changed so that F9 and F10 could be used to adjust the crossing angles in irregular diamonds.) Fortunately it is fairly easy to import these old Flash videos into FBR, edit them and add notes such as this, so I may do that with some of them. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 16:31 from: Paul Boyd
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Hi MartinIt's clear that many users, perhaps most, prefer to watch a video rather than read lengthy text-based explanations on web pages. Is that really true? I hate it when I google how to do something only to find that to get the answer I have to wade through a 10 minute video instead of being able to read through something at my own speed. I know that on yours we can easily pause video, but you still can't print a video out and keep it in a file! I wonder what other people think? I think now that by far the best set of instructions and tutorials is this very forum! How about making any documentation no more than a "Getting started" set of instructions with all the basics covered, sufficient to create, say, a simple GWR terminus station using all the default settings? I think just about everything more than that is covered in the forums somewhere, and it would take a hell of a load off you. I'm thinking about my own experience of using various software where I often find the appropriate forums far more useful than any manufacturer's documentation. Whatever you do though, you must know by now that there will always be someone who's unhappy .Cheers, Paul |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 17:18 from: Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:Hi Paul,It's clear that many users, perhaps most, prefer to watch a video rather than read lengthy text-based explanations on web pages.Is that really true? I hate it when I google how to do something only to find that to get the answer I have to wade through a 10 minute video instead of being able to read through something at my own speed. I know what you mean. I think this is a difference between beginners and experienced users. The problem for beginners is that a lot of the words on a text page are meaningless. If I tell you to add a bonus timber and shove it under the switch heel, you know what I mean. For a beginner it means nothing and sounds crazy. Whereas a picture is worth a thousand words, and a moving picture is worth a thousand more. But this is where the FBR format is so much better than the others, and why I was so pleased to find it. Not only is it easy to add detailed notes, but there is a quick JumpTo list to make it easy to find what you are looking for. Have you tried it? Go to help > watch a video > single slip menu item. Click the Jump To menu: 2_041159_580000000.png  You can jump to the required section, or in chapter 7 there is a quick summary of all the clicks. but you still can't print a video out and keep it in a file!Well you could print a screenshot, or keep screenshot files in a reference folder. I will look at making all the notes from the videos available separately. They are in RTF format so could be opened in Word or Wordpad, or even on the Templot sketchboard. I'm thinking about my own experience of using various software where I often find the appropriate forums far more useful than any manufacturer's documentation.I have found the same, although it is often difficult to know if the information is up to date, when Google's first result is a forum post from 2003. Whatever you do though, you must know by now that there will always be someone who's unhappyTaken as read nowadays. But we can but try to please them. For example I think the MP4 video format is utter rubbish for software tutorials, but that's what many seem to want. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 17:39 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin I think your initial post is very informative in its own right. I'd suggest shoving it somewhere as a guide to what's available, except that that in itself adds to the clutter Videos versus text? I think they're complementary. Videos are good at showing you how to do something; you can see it happening rather than just imagine it. Text is better at explaining concepts, the reference manual side of things if you like. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 18:31 from: Trevor Walling
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Hello Martin, If you could refrain from introducing new things you might make less work for your self. The capabilities of Templot are already brilliant and far in advance of anything else available. I would even suggest there are few software packages that are as complete and capable for their particular purpose including those of commercial providers as Templot is. Modelers of hand built track are always likely to be limited in number but I believe some of us actually like Templot and its capabilities for the learning and information value alone when using it.The fact you can built track and layouts using it as well, is a bonus on top.I sometimes think it might be good if you could do like Linus Torvalds did with Linux. By that I mean delegate tasks and allow individuals you consider suitable to carry out things for you. Documentation mainly of course.He still retains overall control and has the final say what goes with the kernel even after all these years. There are many similar situations concerning programs across the open source community that follow the same model. I am sure you could delegate and still oversee the full control of Templot using a similar method of doing things. If you were ever ill or incapacitated us users would have to manage without the benefit of your most generous assistance and access to your wonderful program. Many Thanks. Trevor. |
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posted: 4 Jul 2015 21:27 from: Martin Wynne
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Trevor Walling wrote: If you could refrain from introducing new things you might make less work for your self. The capabilities of Templot are already brilliant and far in advance of anything else available. I would even suggest there are few software packages that are as complete and capable for their particular purposeHi Trevor, Thanks for that. In fact I do still enjoy adding new functions. It's my hobby in a way and I wouldn't want to walk away from it. For example at present I'm working on some useful new functionality on the sketchboard. And there are plenty of things still missing from Templot -- split-deflection switches, double-curved vertical FB switches, flat-bottom rail foot lines on the trackpad, conductor rails, automated template boundaries -- to name just a few off the top of my head. Creating these things is fun. It's explaining them which I find such a pain. Quite often I can see simple improvements and changes which would be worth doing, but I draw back from making them simply because of the effort of rewriting so many words -- changes to the menus, keyboard shortcuts, merging dialogs, creating new ones, etc. For example the primitive .bgs file format is long overdue to be scrapped, and the background shapes functions integrated into the sketchboard. It would be fun to do and add some useful extra functionality. But I don't think I can face all the rewriting of the relevant texts -- do you have any idea how many times I have explained how to add a background picture shape? I sometimes think it might be good if you could do like Linus Torvalds did with Linux. By that I mean delegate tasks and allow individuals you consider suitable to carry out things for you. Documentation mainly of course. He still retains overall control and has the final say what goes with the kernel even after all these years. There are many similar situations concerning programs across the open source community that follow the same model.I have thought of making Templot open source, but I can't see how it would not make me more work rather than less. In addition to explaining how to use Templot, I would then have to explain how the code works. Bear in mind that it has been written by an oily-fingered engineer, not a software professional. In an old-fashioned way in a language (Pascal) which is not mainstream. I can just imagine the horrified reaction of software people seeing the code and wanting to rewrite the whole thing in C++ or whatever is the current fashion before doing anything else with it. And the omens are not good. It must be 10 years now since Dave Bullis made XtrkCad open source. In that time Martin Fischer and a few others have struggled to move it forward. Apart from renaming it XTrackCad not much has changed. There have been a few improvements to the user interface but the core functionality has barely moved on, despite some obvious gaps. If you follow their mailing list it is clear that they are finding it hard going. Templot may have to come to that one day, but I think if I did it now it would simply stop development dead for years while everyone argues about what to do next and who is going to do it. On the other hand you may be right that I need some help with the documentation. But a mechanism for that is far from clear to me. It needs a measure of collaboration and agreement between several writers, and I have never in my whole life been a team person. Clearly they would need to be experienced Templot users, but having to choose who that might be would make me run a mile. What do you say to the person who is eager to help but hasn't got a clue? Someone else would have to do all that. Chris suggested setting up a Wiki in some form. Would that help? I'm happy to host it on the web site if it's wanted. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 00:26 from: Trevor Walling
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Hello Martin,"I do still enjoy adding new functions. It's my hobby in a way and I wouldn't want to walk away from it. I think it shows as well seeing all the time and effort you put into Templot here and on other sites.You have mentioned before you find the documentation a pain but there must be some way for you to delegate the tasks you don't enjoy. You mention "the primitive .bgs file format is long overdue to be scrapped"but the different file type prevents one deleting by accident what could be a very difficult thing to redo. "do you have any idea how many times I have explained how to add a background picture shape?" I don't but am aware of what you mean following things you are involved with on RMweb and other sites. "I have thought of making Templot open source, but I can't see how it would not make me more work rather than less. In addition to explaining how to use Templot, I would then have to explain how the code works." I am not a coder myself but am sure there are those in the open source movement who would collaborate with you to do it your way in whatever language you use. "It must be 10 years now since Dave Bullis made XtrkCad open source. In that time Martin Fischer and a few others have struggled to move it forward." I think JMRI would be a better example if you want to compare Templot to something. "I have never in my whole life been a team person. " You are not alone there Martin many railway modellers are solitary types me included. I don't think Linus Torvalds is either. More a a benevolent dictator from what I have read. It has worked for Linux and he still has final say over everything regarding the kernel from what I have seen. It is usually the same for software projects as well.Unsuccessful programs fall by the wayside and those that are successful go from strength to strength. I can't see Templot being anything other than more successful following that model. " What do you say to the person who is eager to help but hasn't got a clue?" Exactly that probably. However I am sure many railway modellers choose to learn stuff about railways and pick up new skills that enable them to improve the results of their endeavors. Templot seems to be the de-facto when it comes to hand built track You could still do with assistants even if you don't go open source.A lot of us have capabilities that would be of help surely. Say what you need and see what comes out of it. I can't program, but I can type,photo edit,sound edit,video edit,wire a plug and various other things. I am also a willing learner. I think there are other members whom would be willing to assist you with your tasks too. "Chris suggested setting up a Wicki in some form. Would that help? I'm happy to host it on the web site if it's wanted." If people can add stuff that helps with documentation over which you have final editorial control it could be good. It could eventually be made the default source if it grew enough with the latest up to date info. MERG seems to have a similar problem with obsolete information due to its progress to better and more current stuff. I can think of a few subjects myself, that many of us users would be capable of doing.Many are related to more generic things like building track, wiring up turnouts,electronics,that sort of thing. Filling many of the empty sections in Templot Companion would be a good place to start. How about sending audio recordings of things you would like typing out to chosen assistants via email?.That must surely free some of your time up. Sorry if this seems overlong. Regards. Trevor |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 01:02 from: Martin Wynne
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Trevor Walling wrote:How about sending audio recordings of things you would like typing out to chosen assistants via email?Hi Trevor, Two problems there. 1. How on earth would I "choose" an assistant? 2. I don't think you understand how I write the docs. Usually I start by writing the first few words of each paragraph to establish the logic. Then I go back, sometimes several days later, and complete them, often in a random order. In the process they may need to have screenshots or diagrams made, which I stop and make as I need them. If I write "click abc-123" I stop and double check that the button does in fact say abc-123 and not abcd-123, that it is enabled for clicking when I say it will be, and that clicking it does exactly what I say it will do. Then I write the next sentence and repeat the process. There is no way I could dictate all that as an audio file for someone else to type. In fact typing the words is the least part of the process which I can easily do myself. It's deciding what the words should be that is the tricky part. And reading them over and over again, sleeping on them, to see if there is any way they can be misunderstood. It's extraordinarily difficult when you know the answer to put yourself in the mind of someone who doesn't, but I do try very hard. Which is why the whole process takes so long. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 08:36 from: KeithHC
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Well here goes for my first post on here at least. This is just a thought Martin. Have you considered if there are any user that may be local to you that could meet on a regular basis that could assist you in your endeavors. You may find that there is expertise out there that could be helpful. Keith HC, Dursley |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 10:58 from: Martin Wynne
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Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I would like to say though that I didn't start this topic looking for outside help with the docs. While I appreciate that folks may want to help, I find it very difficult to see a mechanism for that, or how others would fit in with my way of working. The reason for this topic was to explain why I'm minded to change to an embedded viewer for the docs rather than using the users browser, that most of it will be in FBR video format, that users on Linux/Wine will see a degraded version of the viewer, and that users on Apple devices and mobiles may have to settle for a degraded MP4 version of the videos. I was looking for reactions and comments on that, and I would also like to get a better feel for what proportion of users are running Templot on Linux/Wine/Winebottler/CrossOver. I sense that it is increasingly popular, but I may be wrong, and it affects how much time I should spend developing Wine-specific functions. regards, Martin. |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 11:05 from: Les G click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, How about a membership survey which asks users to say what they are using? It could also include a few other questions about usage, if you thought that could help. best Wishes Les G |
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| Last edited on 5 Jul 2015 11:05 by Les G |
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posted: 5 Jul 2015 11:21 from: Nigel Brown click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Hi Martin I see where you're coming from completely. As someone with a software developer background who often needed to write accompanying docs, I think the business of trying to turn a one-person effort in a collaborative one is vastly underrated. It's one thing to do things that way from the start, and even then can run into difficulties, it's quite another to take one person's effort and try to make that change, particularly when it's done on a volunteer free time basis. I think you'd find the arrangement and results very unsatisfactory, and I suspect things would end up in a much worse state than they are now. I think the answer, if it is an answer, is to accept that the way things are now are essentially the way they are going to be, and to try to find a way to work with these disparate resources. Resources they definitely are; there's huge value in there, even if there are limitations. I'm wondering if the thing to do is to create some sort of index, a first port of call where people can go to find out where to look. E.g. I've never created a slip of any sort (I work on a need-to-know basis, I don't look at stuff unless I'm actually going to use it), if/when I do I can probably find out how, but if there was an index with slip in it it could point me in the direction of what information exists. It might even indicate what information isn't up-to-date. When new facilties or reworked facilities become available, the index could be updated. The index itself can be built up over time. This may not be the only approach, but it's a practical one. I think we have to accept the reality; rewriting or replacing odd bits of what's there may be OK, but any idea of revamping the whole of the documentation is not going to work, and any attempt to do so is going to end in disaster. I think a lot of what is there is of a very high standard; I'd concentrate on trying to point people in the right direction, to the most up-to-date and relevant stuff, while acknowledging that some of it may be a bit out-of-date. Or at least find some other way of working with what's there, or may be added in future. Basically, what you are doing now is probably the most reasonable way of doing things, developing stuff that you see a need for and adding the appropriate information as and when you can. Cheers Nigel |
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posted: 6 Jul 2015 19:38 from: dave turner
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Martin For the record I use Wine under Linux and have had few problems so far. The problem with relying on the forum to search for an answer, which I generally do before posting a question, is that it's to easy to get outdated, conflicting and sometimes wrong answers; unless it is the latest reply on the topic from you. In my view an indexed single point of reference is the best answer. Perhaps as you answer a question in the forum you could copy it to the reference and index it. In time this will build up and be almost self maintaining. regards Dave |
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posted: 6 Jul 2015 20:12 from: Trevor Walling
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Hello Martin,how much time I should spend developing Wine-specific functions.I find as a linux user what you have developed and provided enables me to enjoy and use Templot fine. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" springs to mind. I don't think I have come across anything that doesn't work for me. I haven't come across anything in the "I found a flaw section" either in relation to linux users. Any other linux users care to comment? Regards. Trevor. |
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posted: 6 Jul 2015 22:53 from: Martin Dobbins
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Hello Trevor, Martin, All. I do care to comment, thank you for asking I'm a very happy user of Templot on Wine. I have found, after having Templot for several years, that playing with the software tends to help (me RTFM, never). I can usually find a way of getting it to do what I want, and failures along the way aren't usually the end of the world. Martin will then post a video in response to someone else about a completely different subject and I will realise that there is a much simpler way to accomplish what I have been doing. Templot doesn't hold your hand (or control your life) in the way that Microsoft products tend to but it does reward patience, which some people seem incapable of. Martin, I would rather you carry on supporting Wine functions than trying to rewrite documentation. For the record I'm using Ubuntu 15.04 Regards, Martin |
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posted: 12 Jul 2015 07:58 from: Martin Wynne
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Many thanks for the helpful comments. This topic is about the Templot documentation formats, and how best to make them accessible to users, including on Wine. I have moved the messages about creating a wiki to the separate Templot Wiki topic: topic 2722 regards, Martin. |
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posted: 15 Jul 2015 07:49 from: madscientist click the date to link to this post click member name to view archived images |
Martin, don't have a canary over the docs. Add features please , we'll find a way to extract the instructions from you as we go along. !! Beginners need to understand. There is a learning curve , it's a complex piece of software. There's is no way around that fact Open source development is inefficient , unless the software was designed from the ground up to be modular with defined interfaces. Operating systems by their nature lend themselves to that , I suspect templot does not., more time would be lost in managing the process. Then if you wrote it in the first place . Again thanks for developing such a useful program for us, track builders |
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