Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3189future of Templot and docs
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posted: 19 Jan 2018 02:28

from:

madscientist
 
 

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sadly Martin your recent cleanup , broke documentation links , mostly published by you in loads of forum posts all over the net 
That's a pity as finding docs is more difficult 


Is the section you wrote " real tracks " still available , is there a valid link 

Thanks 

Dave 

posted: 19 Jan 2018 02:50

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Dave,

Some of that page is temporarily at:

 http://templot.com/companion/prototype.php

I'm sorry a lot of stuff is not available at present.

It will all come back as I get round to updating it for Templot2, and I will put re-directs to mend the broken links.

I removed it because I got tired of writing "here's a link, oh by the way it's all out of date".

I'm 70 this year. I'm not going to be pushed into doing anything faster or sooner than I choose to do it.

p.s. We are moving to a new server in the next few weeks. The disk in the present one has been spinning continuously for 6 years and Jim feels it's time to move to SSD.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 20 Jan 2018 10:42

from:

madscientist
 
 

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70!, succession planning martin ?


" Documentation is like Sex,
When its good , its really really good
when its bad, its better then nothing "


and heres ` compiler puzzle" to tax your approaching 70 brain , what does the last line  return ?



 constexpr auto auto​()
{
return 1;
}
typedef decltype(auto​()) auto​​;
const auto​​ auto​​​ = auto​();
template <typename auto​​​​>
constexpr auto auto​​​​​() {
return auto​​​;
}
template <typename auto​​​​, typename auto​​​​​​, typename... auto​​​​​​​>
constexpr auto auto​​​​​() {
return auto​​​ + auto​​​​​<auto​​​​​​, auto​​​​​​​...>();
}
int main()
{
constexpr auto auto​​​​​​​ = auto​​​​​<auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​>();
constexpr auto auto​​​​ = auto​​​​​<auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​,auto​​>();
return auto​​​​​​​*auto​​​​;

Last edited on 20 Jan 2018 10:44 by madscientist
posted: 20 Jan 2018 21:43

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
                  
I'm 70 this year. I'm not going to be pushed into doing anything faster or sooner than I choose to do it.
We are all running out of time and it seems to pass ever quicker the more years we clock up. :D
I hope you have many more years to go. :)
But have you considered the future of Templot when you can no longer manage to do it?
It would be a heck of a legacy to leave behind after all the years of effort you have put into it.
It would be a real shame if it was lost upon your demise. :(

Regards.
Trevor. :)

posted: 20 Jan 2018 22:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Trevor Walling wrote:
But have you considered the future of Templot when you can no longer manage to do it?
Hi Trevor,

My master plan was that by now someone half my age would have produced a far superior "son of Templot" program, and I could put my feet up. :)

But at present I don't see any sign of that.

As I've mentioned before, Templot is a very old program. A large chunk of the code was written in 1980 -- that's nearly 40 years ago. The compiler which I use is also a very old program. How long it will all go on working on Windows is a worry. Assuming Windows still exists in its present form, even.

Surprisingly, at present it is working better on Windows10 than it has ever done before.

I have no plans to shuffle off stage just yet :), but if the proverbial bus runs me over tomorrow, I have arranged that Templot in its present form and this web site would continue to be available for at least 5 years -- assuming someone keeps clicking the donations button of course.

But there is no-one else to continue developing it or to answer questions about it. I have been wondering what to do about that. The task of explaining all the code to someone else is just too awful to contemplate -- it would put updating the Templot Companion completely in the shade. In fact there are some sections of the code which are now a bit of a mystery even to me, I would need to study them long and hard to remember how I made it work. :?

cheers,

Martin.   

posted: 21 Jan 2018 21:00

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
     
My master plan was that by now someone half my age would have produced a far superior "son of Templot" program,

I do not think that is possible. When you consider the length of time you have been doing this and the breadth of knowledge you have accumulated and shared. The skills and the knowledge base is very unlikely to be available in years to come. A lot of knowledge of past times and skills are lost with each generation.
I would think the changes between the engineering related to track of the 1900's and stuff done now and in the future  is without precedent. I doubt there are many nowadays who can cross over from engineering to programming and computers with the knowledge required.
Do they still teach how to file a rectangle of metal to 0.5 thou of an inch tolerance by hand in workshop practice apprenticeships? I very much doubt it. :( Then again computers do it for you now. :)
Regards :)

posted: 23 Jan 2018 11:39

from:

madscientist
 
 

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It is a serious topic, primarily because unlike the multitude of settrack planning apps, Templot is unique .

One thing to seriously consider Martin , is to open source the code , that way at least the code base isn't lost
Last edited on 23 Jan 2018 11:41 by madscientist
posted: 23 Jan 2018 12:15

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
One thing to seriously consider Martin, is to open source the code, that way at least the code base isn't lost
Hi Dave,

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk that it will produce an avalanche of questions about what this routine does or what that variable is for.

I just couldn't cope with that, it makes me shake just thinking about it. One-line questions taking 30 seconds to write, and 2 hours at the keyboard trying to reply.

When Dave Bullis open-sourced XTrackCAD he turned his back on it entirely and left it to others. I don't feel ready to do that with Templot.

Templot also includes some paid-for components which are copyright of their owners (the PDF engine, Sergey's RichView editor for formatted text on the sketchboard), so I can't publish the source for those. The same applied to Nils's source for the sketchboard engine, but he has since open-sourced that. Likewise David Baldwin's HTML viewer.

The best solution is for a youngster with a proper background in IT to create a modern up-to-date replacement for Templot. I'm a toolmaker, programming was only ever a hobby thing.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 23 Jan 2018 12:55

from:

rodney_hills
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
One thing to seriously consider Martin, is to open source the code, that way at least the code base isn't lost
Hi Dave,

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk that it will produce an avalanche of questions about what this routine does or what that variable is for.

I just couldn't cope with that, it makes me shake just thinking about it. One-line questions taking 30 seconds to write, and 2 hours at the keyboard trying to reply.
[SNIPPED]
The best solution is for a youngster with a proper background in IT to create a modern up-to-date replacement for Templot. I'm a toolmaker, programming was only ever a hobby thing.

regards,

Martin.
Hello,
Hands up any "professional programmer(s)" inhabiting this club/forum.

Do YOU think a pro programmer is the solution? Or even part of the solution?
Who would write the specs?

I'm only a dinosaur carer retired [ex mainframe systems programmer to be precise], so I have never crafted a complete substantial application program in my life.

Regards,
Rodney Hills


posted: 23 Jan 2018 13:20

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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rodney_hills wrote:


Hello,
Hands up any "professional programmer(s)" inhabiting this club/forum.

Do YOU think a pro programmer is the solution? Or even part of the solution?
Who would write the specs?

I'm only a dinosaur carer retired [ex mainframe systems programmer to be precise], so I have never crafted a complete substantial application program in my life.

Regards,
Rodney Hills

I had a career partly as a software developer. However, I suspect Martin will still be going strong after I finally get shunted into those sidings in the sky. :(

Nigel


posted: 23 Jan 2018 13:29

from:

madscientist
 
 

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at the right time , open sourcing the code base ( as much as practical ) is the ONLY practical way to ensure , at the very least the code continues , i.e. Can be recompiled to more modern platforms. 
no one is going to come along and singlehandily take on a code base of that size and longevity, it's far too onerous a task to dig through others code of this nature. 


The issue of supporting open source is easily handled , you announce " no support " and that's what you do , after a few attempts , people get the hint. 


The advantage of open sourcing is that there it exposes , the code to a very large ( or larger ) audience of programmers , and encourages incremental development 

I think you should consider it , at the appropriate time ,  mean there will be a point when you " have " to turn your back on it. 

Dave 

posted: 23 Jan 2018 13:36

from:

madscientist
 
 

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rodney_hills wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
One thing to seriously consider Martin, is to open source the code, that way at least the code base isn't lost
Hi Dave,

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk that it will produce an avalanche of questions about what this routine does or what that variable is for.

I just couldn't cope with that, it makes me shake just thinking about it. One-line questions taking 30 seconds to write, and 2 hours at the keyboard trying to reply.
[SNIPPED]
The best solution is for a youngster with a proper background in IT to create a modern up-to-date replacement for Templot. I'm a toolmaker, programming was only ever a hobby thing.

regards,

Martin.
Hello,
Hands up any "professional programmer(s)" inhabiting this club/forum.

Do YOU think a pro programmer is the solution? Or even part of the solution?
Who would write the specs?

I'm only a dinosaur carer retired [ex mainframe systems programmer to be precise], so I have never crafted a complete substantial application program in my life.

Regards,
Rodney Hills

I am a professional programmer ,. But Martin is dreaming if he thinks , " someone " will come along and recreate Templot. the niche is far too small and were it bigger we would have seen a competitor before now. 
Even the planning apps are poor , underspeced and have a fraction of the capability of Templot , Traxx is at a dead end, Anyrail seems to have stalled , Xtrakcad is effectively an orphan , SCARM is so basic it's a joke ( it can't even do transitions ) 

Out of that , wishing a, white knight programmer , is going to appear , and recreate Templot functionality ( for free !! , or a meagre license ) must be the ultimate in wishful thinking , sorry Martin 

Regards 

Dave 

Ps , it's far more likely we'll see hand built track becoming a rarity ( perhaps supported by paper templates )  , then see a " son of templot " 


Last edited on 23 Jan 2018 13:38 by madscientist
posted: 23 Jan 2018 13:50

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
The issue of supporting open source is easily handled, you announce "no support"  and that's what you do, after a few attempts, people get the hint.
And then I sit quiet and watch as folks make a mess of it or release multiple forked versions to confuse users?

I may publish the code rather than open-source it. That way it is preserved but remains my copyright and can't be used to create derivatives without my permission.

But even that would likely produce a flood of emails, questions and suggestions. I just couldn't handle it. I'm spending far more time in front of the computer than is good for me as it is.

Now staring at the Templot Companion, but thinking of going for a walk instead.

Martin.

posted: 23 Jan 2018 14:02

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
I am a professional programmer. But Martin is dreaming if he thinks, "someone" will come along and recreate Templot. The niche is far too small and were it bigger we would have seen a competitor before now.
Well yes, I do a lot of dreaming. :)

I wasn't thinking of a commercial replacement. Just a hobby interest. If I can do it I don't see what is so unlikely about someone else doing the same?

Have you seen S-21 from Bernd Steimann and Christian Sender:

  http://www.s21-modellgleis.de

Martin.

posted: 23 Jan 2018 14:05

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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Martin,

I hope it's drier in Stourport,than it is down here in Plymouth.

Phil.

PS, I will be on the east side of the river at the weekend.

posted: 23 Jan 2018 15:28

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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An interesting discussion, and I assume Martin is hoping not to shuffle off just yet! Personally, in that event if Templot just remained frozen, that would do me. Either with a way of disabling the internet check or ensuring that the internet check will always work.  I’ve had one piece of software, I think it was Quicken, where I couldn’t reinstall it because they’d removed the necessary online bit!
Cheers,

Paul

posted: 23 Jan 2018 15:53

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
if Templot just remained frozen, that would do me.
Hi Paul,

It really depends on Windows.

It's most likely that the installer would fail first.

The actual templot_2.exe program file will run by itself from any location, it doesn't need to be installed. That's just a convenience for the file associations, video viewer, dpi-awareness, etc.

Try copying it somewhere else just by itself and see how much functionality is lost. 

with a way of disabling the internet check
There is a way of doing that. No doubt if I tell someone about it, it would eventually make its way round the hobby.

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk of getting help requests from users not using the latest update. But that won't always apply -- especially if I am past answering them. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 23 Jan 2018 16:03

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
It really depends on Windows.
with a way of disabling the internet check
There is a way of doing that. No doubt if I tell someone about it, it would eventually make its way round the hobby.

Ah yes, Windows unpredictability!
Now you've said there's a way round the internet check, I bet people will start looking!  Don't make that secret your last words though, there must be more important things to say!

Cheers,
Paul

posted: 23 Jan 2018 23:54

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
I don't use windows.:D
Regards.:)

posted: 24 Jan 2018 02:14

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Paul Boyd wrote:
if Templot just remained frozen, that would do me.
Hi Paul,

It really depends on Windows.

It's most likely that the installer would fail first.

The actual templot_2.exe program file will run by itself from any location, it doesn't need to be installed. That's just a convenience for the file associations, video viewer, dpi-awareness, etc.

Try copying it somewhere else just by itself and see how much functionality is lost. 

with a way of disabling the internet check
There is a way of doing that. No doubt if I tell someone about it, it would eventually make its way round the hobby.

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk of getting help requests from users not using the latest update. But that won't always apply -- especially if I am past answering them. :)

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Templot is perfectly fine just the way it is. The problem is that MS and the rest will keep trying to make it redundant to maintain their cash-flow.

At some point in the distant future you might want to announce that Templot only runs up to a certain version of Windows (or whatever OS dominates by then). Templot users might have to maintain a dedicated system just to run Templot, but considering how inexpensive hardware is these days that's hardly going to be a problem, and if they don't like that they can probably install a virtual Windows environment to run Templot.

Cheers!
Andy

posted: 25 Jan 2018 19:41

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Andrew Barrowman wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
Paul Boyd wrote:
if Templot just remained frozen, that would do me.
Hi Paul,

It really depends on Windows.

It's most likely that the installer would fail first.

The actual templot_2.exe program file will run by itself from any location, it doesn't need to be installed. That's just a convenience for the file associations, video viewer, dpi-awareness, etc.

Try copying it somewhere else just by itself and see how much functionality is lost. 

with a way of disabling the internet check
There is a way of doing that. No doubt if I tell someone about it, it would eventually make its way round the hobby.

I'm not going to do that while there is the slightest risk of getting help requests from users not using the latest update. But that won't always apply -- especially if I am past answering them. :)

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Templot is perfectly fine just the way it is. The problem is that MS and the rest will keep trying to make it redundant to maintain their cash-flow.

At some point in the distant future you might want to announce that Templot only runs up to a certain version of Windows (or whatever OS dominates by then). Templot users might have to maintain a dedicated system just to run Templot, but considering how inexpensive hardware is these days that's hardly going to be a problem, and if they don't like that they can probably install a virtual Windows environment to run Templot.

Cheers!
Andy
by definition, if the developer stops developing and the source isnt accessible , then the result is " stasis " . This will work , for a while , the " while " can be a decidedly variable amount of time, depending on what happens 
Maintaining dedicated installations/hardware is a huge pain and  is largely shunned, I have an old XP machine for this reason and is a complete dog to maintain , hardware tends to fails and older OPSYS systems on new hardware is a source of all sorts of issues 


heres to Martin living to 100  :D
Dave 
Last edited on 25 Jan 2018 19:42 by madscientist
posted: 25 Jan 2018 19:50

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Dave, I know all about the pain of maintaining old machines! I have an Alps printer for which I keep an XP machine, and also use that for a perfectly good film scanner for which the manufacturer would rather have you buy a new one than update the drivers. 
Paul

posted: 25 Jan 2018 19:51

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Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

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Yes Dave, but do you have a better solution?
Rgds,
Andy

posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:13

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I look at some of the old code and I refuse to believe that someone couldn't now do far better. They might even have the wit to include split deflections in the switch generator from the start.

It's going beyond reason to suggest that Templot is indispensable or should go on for ever. Sooner or later someone will come along with something far superior, and then Templot will fade away and die. That's what happens with everything else, so it's not likely Templot will be any different.

I just wish they would get a move on. :)

Martin.

posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:19

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Andrew Barrowman wrote:
Yes Dave, but do you have a better solution?
Rgds,
Andy
I am as supporter of the open source movement, so you can see my argument. 
lots of software on the net changed " ownership " when the original developer walked away for one reason or another , if there is interest the software community will pick up the cudgel etc 

at the very least with an open source system , someone will ensure it can be compiled on later hardware/software 

but Ive said all this before 

posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:23

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I look at some of the old code and I refuse to believe that someone couldn't now do far better. They might even have the wit to include split deflections in the switch generator from the start.

It's going beyond reason to suggest that Templot is indispensable or should go on for ever. Sooner or later someone will come along with something far superior, and then Templot will fade away and die. That's what happens with everything else, so it's not likely Templot will be any different.

I just wish they would get a move on. :)

Martin.
any programmer will tell you Martin that getting your hands around old code is very difficult , especially when its written in a form alien to the developer considering it , so for example , non-OOP , or uncommon languages ( like Pascal derivatives :D) etc .  
Then add in the size of  the intended audience , most of whom are not programmers  and you have a very very ( vanishingly small ) interest group 

Of course " someone " could do it better, thats always the case , but would anyone want to, thats the key question 


dave 
Last edited on 25 Jan 2018 20:24 by madscientist
posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
at the very least with an open source system, someone will ensure it can be compiled on later hardware/software
I wouldn't bet on that if I was you.

Bear in mind that Templot started life on a 1970s programmable calculator. Some of the variable names and routines are still the same.

Martin.

posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:34

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
at the very least with an open source system, someone will ensure it can be compiled on later hardware/software
I wouldn't bet on that if I was you.

Bear in mind that Templot started life on a 1970s programmable calculator. Some of the variable names and routines are still the same.

Martin.
if theres a demand , someone will recompile it , but taking on the codebase , thats a whole different issue 

posted: 25 Jan 2018 20:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
Then add in the size of  the intended audience, most of whom are not programmers  and you have a very very (vanishingly small) interest group
When I started the audience was zero, and the interest group was 1. I was doing it for myself, partly because I enjoyed doing it, and partly because I needed it.

It's not reasonable to suggest that no-one else would ever want to do the same.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 25 Jan 2018 21:13

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Think the issues are characteristic of the hobby as a whole. What would happen if Martin found a way of Templot being supported indefinitely, but all the firms such as C&L making important goodies for track building dropped out? It's the nature of the beast.

I wouldn't worry too much. Predictions of doom are rife but quite often something pops up to keep the good work going. Occasionally something does leave a big gap; the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers. But by no means always.

Nigel

posted: 25 Jan 2018 21:17

from:

madscientist
 
 

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Think the issues are characteristic of the hobby as a whole. What would happen if Martin found a way of Templot being supported indefinitely, but all the firms such as C&L making important goodies for track building dropped out? It's the nature of the beast.

I wouldn't worry too much. Predictions of doom are rife but quite often something pops up to keep the good work going. Occasionally something does leave a big gap; the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers. But by no means always.

Nigel
indeed, sure we're just shooting the breeze here anyway. Martin is going to live forever , or certainly longer then I intend to build track !!! :D

posted: 25 Jan 2018 21:26

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers.
Funny you should mention those two. I’ve just bought a couple of Blacksmith detailing etches from the Coopercraft website. They arrived very promptly - not really hit the buffers!
Paul

posted: 25 Jan 2018 22:20

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote:
the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers.
Funny you should mention those two. I’ve just bought a couple of Blacksmith detailing etches from the Coopercraft website. They arrived very promptly - not really hit the buffers!
Paul
I was one of those who put in an order for a Coopercraft kit, had the money deducted, and then found out his machine was broken and with no idea whatsoever when it would be fixed. Got nowhere with a phone call. It wasn't much and I just left it.

Blacksmiths used to do some useful 3mm coaches but they seem to have disappeared under the previous owner to Coopercraft.

Nigel


posted: 26 Jan 2018 20:47

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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I don't wish to get involved in another round of endless debates, which have been done to death on other forums.

But, I think Blacksmiths etched brass kits and bits is all that is left, anything else on the stand is what's left from when the current owner bought them up. I have seen him at shows doing the artwork for etches. There is certainly no white metal or lost wax castings to go with them.

Phil.

posted: 26 Jan 2018 23:39

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Think the issues are characteristic of the hobby as a whole. What would happen if Martin found a way of Templot being supported indefinitely, but all the firms such as C&L making important goodies for track building dropped out? It's the nature of the beast.

I wouldn't worry too much. Predictions of doom are rife but quite often something pops up to keep the good work going. Occasionally something does leave a big gap; the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers. But by no means always.

Nigel
Hello,
       Well Templot would continue and people who wanted to build track would have to use the  Brook-Smith method or use 3D printing to make their own stuff. Things progress despite the odds and new methods appear over the horizon whatever people may say or think.
Regards,:)

posted: 27 Jan 2018 12:19

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Trevor Walling wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote:
Think the issues are characteristic of the hobby as a whole. What would happen if Martin found a way of Templot being supported indefinitely, but all the firms such as C&L making important goodies for track building dropped out? It's the nature of the beast.

I wouldn't worry too much. Predictions of doom are rife but quite often something pops up to keep the good work going. Occasionally something does leave a big gap; the successors to Blacksmiths Models and Coopercraft seem to have effectively hit the buffers. But by no means always.

Nigel
Hello,
       Well Templot would continue and people who wanted to build track would have to use the  Brook-Smith method or use 3D printing to make their own stuff. Things progress despite the odds and new methods appear over the horizon whatever people may say or think.
Regards,:)
Hi Trevor
That's effectively what I was saying. :)
Nigel

posted: 27 Jan 2018 23:08

from:

madscientist
 
 

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I don’t hold quite the same optimism. The hobby is becoming very rtr based and who knows maybe we’ll see rtr P4 track and all layouts will start looking the same.  20Years ago I could count several OO wheel suppliers. Today we have basically  2 

posted: 28 Jan 2018 00:39

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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madscientist wrote:
I don’t hold quite the same optimism. The hobby is becoming very rtr based and who knows maybe we’ll see rtr P4 track and all layouts will start looking the same.  20Years ago I could count several OO wheel suppliers. Today we have basically  2 
We do indeed have some excellent RTR, but is this a bad thing?  A lot of skill goes into producing a quality layout and it's that which makes it distinctive, even those who use solely RTR stock.

There was an interesting layout in this months RM which used mainly Peco setrack. It looked pretty good, partly because the way the track was used, partly because the RTR stock it used was pre-grouping and therefore compact, and partly because the scenery was done to a high and consistent standard.

posted: 21 Feb 2018 19:54

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
indeed, sure we're just shooting the breeze here anyway. Martin is going to live forever, or certainly longer then I intend to build track !!! :D

I'm feeling a bit weary of Templot today. :(

I've been thinking about the comments in this topic a lot lately. I have decided to post some of the program code, so that anyone wanting to start work on a replacement for Templot might have some ideas rather than a completely blank sheet to start from. See:

 topic 3221

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 21 Feb 2018 22:17

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I'm feeling a bit weary of Templot today. :(

Martin.
Chin up Martin, nice walk out and about to recharge the batteries. Rather than plough on every day much better to take some breaks and get back to Templot when you are focussed. There isn't an obligation to be at the keyboard and answer forum posts or write the docs all the time :thumb:

Rob


posted: 21 Feb 2018 22:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks Rob.

I did go for a nice walk yesterday:

astley_fields_1200.jpgastley_fields_1200.jpg

But today has been grey and gloomy all day here, not much encouragement to go out. :(

I've been working on the synchronised rotation for Godders, but interrupted several times by other stuff and emails.

If it's better tomorrow I shall definitely go out. A famous old oak tree has fallen down, I may go and take a look:

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-43084088

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 22 Feb 2018 17:03

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello,
        I'm feeling a bit like that with my grandchildren at the moment. They gave me some bug which seems to be going on forever while they are all fully recovered. I wouldn't change them for anything in reality though. Still need to do the pickup run despite feeling close to death. :roll:
Regards.:)

posted: 24 Feb 2018 23:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Trevor Walling wrote:
I'm feeling a bit like that with my grandchildren at the moment. They gave me some bug which seems to be going on forever while they are all fully recovered. I wouldn't change them for anything in reality though. Still need to do the pickup run despite feeling close to death. :roll:
Hi Trevor,

I hope you are feeling a bit better now.

There's a lot of bugs about recently. I blame Brexit. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 26 May 2018 02:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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madscientist wrote:
It is a serious topic, primarily because unlike the multitude of set-track planning apps, Templot is unique. One thing to seriously consider Martin, is to open source the code, that way at least the code base isn't lost
I'm returning to this topic because I have been giving it some serious thought in recent weeks.

I mentioned earlier that I shall be 70 this year, and as the actual date of reaching my biblical "three score years and ten" draws nearer it does focus the mind on "what happens next?".

For the last 20 years Templot has been a significant part of my life, and I'm not sure that I want it to play such a dominant part from now on. I would like to get back to the situation which existed in the 20 years before that, when it was no more than an occasional hobby interest.

The program is now quite widely used across the hobby and there are some modellers relying on it as part of their lifetime modelling project. I'm not entirely happy to be in the position that they are relying on me alone to keep Templot working and available. It's not just the risk from the proverbial bus. Or from Microsoft. I'm getting very forgetful nowadays and easily distracted. I do fear that one day I will start tinkering with the Templot code and end up wrecking it, and be unable to repair the damage.

What to do about it? The situation I'm minded to work towards is:

1. an OpenTemplot version (or versions) which is being developed and supported by others*, taking it in whichever direction they want to go. Templot for trams? Templot on Android tablets? Templot Lite for beginners? A Templot plug-in for AnyRail? It would start from the current version of Templot2, minus the functions which can't be open-sourced such as the PDF export.

and

2. a non-open MartinTemplot version which I would continue to tinker with as the mood takes me. There are several things I might want to try -- make outside-slip say, or full chairing detail. An updated DXF export for 3D printing perhaps. But without any obligation to provide a fully developed user interface for such functions or write detailed Help notes. A version of Templot for those who know what they are doing and don't need such assistance. Who don't mind the odd bug if there is a way round it. If it all gets in a muddle they could swap back to the OpenTemplot version (assuming the files are still compatible).

But getting from here to there is not so simple. There is no "open source now" button which I can click. I have to decide which of several possible licences to adopt. The licence terms would require that anyone else developing new code would be required to open-source it on the same terms. But that would not apply to me as the original copyright holder -- so it needs to be carefully written. I then have to make sure all the files have the correct copyright notices and links to the licence. I have to remove the functions which can't be open-sourced, without breaking anything else. I have to make sure that the published code will compile without errors on a currently available compiler, almost certainly Lazarus. There is also the issue of the paid-for subscriptions for the NLS tiled maps API.

So not much is likely to happen in the short term. And I may yet change my mind. But if there are any software professionals reading this I would be grateful for any advice.    

*and which others would that be, I hear you ask. I've no idea. Anyone here interested?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 26 May 2018 03:27

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

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Hello Martin,
I hope I was not the instigator of this recent consideration of yours.I am sure that many wish/hope that your wonderful contribution toward prototype track construction continues long after all our own personal demises. Not wishing to sound morbid or anything but my own personal experiences have brought such things into close focus. If we all leave some thing after we have passed at least we have made an impression of the future that will follow. What more could we hope for? Maybe I should refrain from posting after a good night out with old friends?
This was possibly not a quick reply. Nice Shiraz though.




:)

posted: 26 May 2018 10:41

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Hi Martin

This seems to me an entirely sensible way to go. A frozen open-source version which can be used or taken on by others, and a version which you can continue develop in whatever direction you are inclined to. I suspect that once you've achieved the former it'll be a weight from your shoulders. It might be worth while seeing if there's an open-source repository where the open-source version can be lodged. But I imagine it'll take some work to get there.

Cheers
Nigel

posted: 26 May 2018 20:52

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,
I think every experienced user on here would value a 'lifetime' version of Templot that could be downloaded and run without having to worry about your availability to develop or support it. There would be a huge hole in many peoples lives without Templot and whilst the 'old' ways with cut-up templates, long straight edges and a keen eye certainly work it would be a step back from the ease and ( relative ) simplicity of Templot.

Personally I don't think working towards a version that can run on phones and tablets is worthwhile, who wants to work on a trackplan on a diddy little screen while sitting in the coffee shop or the carpark. Desktop PC's with large monitors or conventional laptops will be around a good while yet. Dumming down features to make a lite version probably isn't going to be a help if you don't grasp the concept of Templot and which features do you leave out .

Having a version which people can take and develop is fine, providing somebody doesn't try to alter Templot into something it wasn't designed to be. Also providing that it doesn't take huge amounts of your personal time to provide and that it is as an extra bonus to the availability of the standard version.

Chair details, outside slips and other additions would be very nice but at a cost to your time. I suspect there may be a bit of head scratching to provide all the possible types and uses of chair types :(

Rob

P.S. Keep the bus timetable handy, hopefully you haven't got 20+ buses and hour in each direction like urban Manchester :D

posted: 26 May 2018 21:23

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Personally I don't think working towards a version that can run on phones and tablets is worthwhile, who wants to work on a trackplan on a diddy little screen while sitting in the coffee shop or the car park. Desktop PC's with large monitors or conventional laptops will be around a good while yet. Dumbing down features to make a lite version probably isn't going to be a help if you don't grasp the concept of Templot and which features do you leave out.

Having a version which people can take and develop is fine, providing somebody doesn't try to alter Templot into something it wasn't designed to be.
Thanks Rob.

I was thinking of using a tablet to "broadcast" to a SmartTV for home use. I can do that with my Android tablet. Or at least I did once, I can't remember how I did it. Also I don't know how you would print templates from such a system.

But the whole point of open source software is that anyone can run with it and make it whatever they want. If one person makes a version going one way, someone else can make a version going a different way. Others can join in and help with either as they wish.

Perhaps the real mystery is who all these people are? I suspect there won't be many. Until the proverbial bus does its worst, and then someone somewhere will have to do something if they want Templot to remain available.

I've been reading up on open source licences. There are dozens of them, all with slightly differing terms. The most popular seems to be the GNU/GPL licence:

  http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

So if I decide to go ahead, it will probably be with that.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 27 May 2018 12:46

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Rob Manchester wrote:
Hi Martin,
I think every experienced user on here would value a 'lifetime' version of Templot that could be downloaded and run without having to worry about your availability to develop or support it. There would be a huge hole in many peoples lives without Templot and whilst the 'old' ways with cut-up templates, long straight edges and a keen eye certainly work it would be a step back from the ease and ( relative ) simplicity of Templot.
I’d certainly go along with that, with the assumption that if you (Martin) ever did call it a day then the internet check would be disabled so that we truly have that lifetime version. I’d hate to think that all my existing work would suddenly become unusable, or that I wouldn’t be able to do any new work in the future.
I know that Microsoft might scupper things, but I’m already keeping XP going for my Alps printer so I’d be happy to keep whatever is needed to run Templot.

Open Source - maybe someone will compile Templot to run on a Mac!!

Cheers,
Paul


posted: 27 May 2018 12:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Thanks Paul.

I have now created a hosting account on SourceForge.net for OpenTemplot:

 http://sourceforge.net/projects/opentemplot/

There is nothing on there yet, and may never be if I change my mind about it.

Please be aware -- that site is supported by advertising. Someone has to pay for it if it is to remain available after the bus gets me. There are and will be numerous "download" links on there which are advertising and nothing to do with Templot or me. Please don't click such links unless you know what you are doing.

There is nothing related to Templot on there yet.

The existing Templot2 downloads won't be on there, because that site is restricted to hosting open-source software.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 27 May 2018 18:49

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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I sincerely hope that things work out for the best, I really don't have the time and I've successfully managed to forget all the Pascal I ever learned.

I still do have a copy but it's on multiple diskettes and I don't currently have a computer that can deal with these. As for Delphi forget it.

posted: 27 May 2018 19:25

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Stephen Freeman wrote:
I sincerely hope that things work out for the best
Thanks Stephen.

There isn't actually any problem at present. Templot2 remains available, and there will be program updates in the usual way for the foreseeable future.

I'm just thinking ahead to the time when I shall want to take more of a back seat, and trying to ensure that a version of Templot in some form will still be available if I am no longer able to take any sort of seat.

An open source version is just one of several options, and I haven't yet made up my mind.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 29 May 2018 21:43

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Well there's good news and bad news.

The good news is that after a couple of days work I have a first bare-bones version of OpenTemplot compiled in Lazarus and working. There are still a lot of rough edges, and quite a lot of stuff is missing*. But the basic design and printing of track templates is working. I'm not yet ready to release the files as open source, but that's the aim. Other contributors could take over smoothing the rough edges and finding open source equivalents for the missing stuff.

The bad news is that the box files from OpenTemplot are not compatible with existing box files from Templot2. Which is an essential requirement.

With hindsight it was of course a mistake to use binary files, but I never expected when I first roughed out a file format all those years ago that it would still be in use by now.

So I'm going to have to write some sort of file conversion utility to get round this. Which is doable. What's not doable is supporting it, and having to explain over and over again to folks how to get their files from one to the other, and why they keep getting error messages. Even if I write detailed instructions, no-one will ever read them. :(

But if the bus has done its worst, it will be somebody else's problem. :)

*currently missing:

sketchboard
PDF export
file viewer
metafiles
maps
direct scanning

Just to repeat, none of this has any bearing on the current Templot2 program, which will continue unchanged.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 30 May 2018 00:01

from:

d827kelly
 
Coventry - United Kingdom

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There are pros and cons of each type of open source license, pick which suits your use of your work best. GPL doesn't prevent others making commercial versions of your software, but means they have to provide the source code and contribute their changes for instance.

One short term option is to switch to a templot 2.x/3.x model, with templot 2.x being the current version, with no more features to be added and a sort of 'legacy version' that people can continue to use without needing your efforts to maintain further other than bug fixes. With 3.x being the open source and future features version perhaps.


In the end it is your decision on what is right for you. It would be great though to have templot protected for the future as it is the best for what it does I've found.

posted: 30 May 2018 01:23

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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d827kelly wrote:
One short term option is to switch to a templot 2.x/3.x model, with templot 2.x being the current version, with no more features to be added and a sort of 'legacy version' that people can continue to use without needing your efforts to maintain further other than bug fixes. With 3.x being the open source and future features version perhaps.
Hi Kelly,

Templot2 and OpenTemplot will be two different programs.

Templot2 is the current and future version which I shall continue to develop as now. It won't be open source.

OpenTemplot will be a downgrade from Templot2 because Templot2 includes some copyright code which can't be open-sourced (the PDF export for example).

OpenTemplot will be open source under the GNU/GPL licence:

 http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

Once I have released the files I don't anticipate doing much with OpenTemplot myself. It will come into its own if and when Templot2 is no longer available for any reason.

In the meantime if others want to work with or develop something from OpenTemplot that's fine by me (providing they stick to the GNU/GPL of course).

Who these "others" might be is something of a mystery so far.

There is no point my releasing the files if no-one has the means to use them. That's why I have been modifying them to be usable with Lazarus (itself open-source software). Details of how to get started with Lazarus are here:

 topic 2956 - message 21508

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 2 Jun 2018 20:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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After a bit of sweat I have finally got the file conversion working in Templot2:

2_021538_110000000.png2_021538_110000000.png

And this is the result, running in OpenTemplot (compiled in Lazarus):

2_021524_090000000.png2_021524_090000000.png

Part of Gordon's Eastwood Town project, saved from Templot2.

There are still some cosmetic screen issues to resolve, but the basic track design functions are all working.

The change of file format is needed because Lazarus doesn't support the extended 80-bit data format used in Templot2.

The file extensions for OpenTemplot format will .otbox , .otbgs , .otcal

I have created a new section here on Templot Club for OpenTemplot discussions:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_forum.php?id=25

If you want to receive emails from that section you will need to add it to your emailed messages at:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/my_account.php?watched_forums=1

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 9 Jun 2018 00:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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I have now released the first ever open source version of Templot.

It's here:

 topic 3282

:)

Martin.



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