Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 3197Templot Companion - work in progress
author remove search highlighting
 
posted: 26 Jan 2018 02:18

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
The first inkling that I might at long last get a bit done on the Companion. I have updated this video clip to match 218c:

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.php

I will update this topic as I get more done.

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2018 02:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Another short video added for beginners:

 http://templot.com/companion/4_where_do_i_start.php

I would welcome some feedback about the style and content of these videos, and the Templot Explained section generally:

 http://templot.com/companion/0_for_beginners.php

I hope I am hitting the right level for raw beginners, it's impossible for me to know. It certainly takes a great deal of time to produce. Hopefully the information delivery rate can be increased as beginners become more familiar with the concepts.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2018 20:47

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

I think it might help, if on the first link, you put a picture of the first screen that you see on opening Templot and a note on how to change the scale and gauge to suit the first time user. Most first time users will like me think what the hell do I do with this. Is it in my scale / gauge etc.?

Cheers

Phil
Last edited on 28 Jan 2018 20:49 by Phil O
posted: 28 Jan 2018 21:34

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:   
I would welcome some feedback about the style and content of these videos, and the Templot Explained section generally:

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin,

Looking good so far. A couple of points :-

1) You say "You probably already know the basics of UK pointwork geometry" in section 4 - what are you assuming that people already know ? It may help to be specific and say " if you know xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxx then you are familiar with UK pointwork geometry"

2) I have said this before but once you have covered the absolute basics and brought people round to the Templot style I think it is important to give users some specific track design methods/worked examples as many may come to Templot ( as Peco users wanting better prototype fidelity ) and just want to design a single plan and then move off and build it only returning to Templot when the next new layout is due.

The basic methods of making :

Double track oval with passing loop and siding ( like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )

Terminus station design - Minories type with double track/engine release/parels bay.

Flowing single track terminus - aligning templates over a pre-drawn Template to ensure it flows nicely.


Important, I think, to stress that Templot is intended to be ( or is capable of being ) used in other ways than just snapping single track items together or designing single templates.

Rob


posted: 28 Jan 2018 22:06

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Phil O wrote:
I think it might help, if on the first link, you put a picture of the first screen that you see on opening Templot and a note on how to change the scale and gauge to suit the first time user.
Hi Phil,

I don't quite follow that? :?

There is a picture of the first screen and how to set the gauge on this page:

 http://templot.com/companion/3_what_am_i_looking_at.php

And it is repeated as the very first item in the first video:

2_281656_090000000.png2_281656_090000000.png

And likewise is also the first item in the "your first printed template" video.

Which did you mean by the "first link"?

Thanks for the feedback.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2018 22:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
1) You say "You probably already know the basics of UK pointwork geometry" in section 4 - what are you assuming that people already know? It may help to be specific and say "if you know xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxx then you are familiar with UK pointwork geometry"
Hi Rob,

Well I'm assuming that if someone arrives at Templot wanting to print a specific individual template, say a B-7 in EM curved onto 6ft radius, then they already know what that is.

In which case they have a completely different starting point on the NEW dialog and don't need to know anything about mouse actions and track planning at this stage. So they are better off jumping out of the track planning tutorial and going straight to the template printing video instead.

There are a great many users in this "I just want to print a template instead of buying one" category. It was after all the original purpose of Templot.

I don't know how else to cater for the differing wants of new users. And I can't provide all the links to other topics from the start, because I haven't yet written them. There is no point in putting "if you don't know x, click here". Because there isn't yet a here to click. That will have to be a later edit.

Truly it is a mind-numbing tangle. I have been at this starting point of a users guide several times over the years, and never got any further because it goes off in too many directions at once.

What I would like to know is if I am hitting the right note with the "Ladybird Book of Templot" style? Several times already I have written more explanation and then deleted it until later in the series. I don't want to treat beginners as dim-wits, but on the other hand I have heard many times "I couldn't make head nor tail of that, it went right over my head".

Thanks for the feedback.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 28 Jan 2018 23:18

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
2) I have said this before but once you have covered the absolute basics and brought people round to the Templot style I think it is important to give users some specific track design methods/worked examples as many may come to Templot ( as Peco users wanting better prototype fidelity) and just want to design a single plan and then move off and build it only returning to Templot when the next new layout is due.
Hi Rob,

All in good time. :)

The plan for the next few videos is to work through the remainder of the beginner buttons.

1. the other mouse actions which are unaffected by the peg position -- orbit and shift.

2. explain the basics about the fixing peg, but not the notch at this stage. Using F4 to set the length.

3. using F5 and F6 and how the red radius indicator is affected.

4. create a small bit of track plan using the remaining buttons. This will include the basic make tools, so will also need an explanation of stored templates and the control template. That is a concept which is so blindingly simple, and yet seems to be so alien to many. Every single word will have to be carefully judged. 

The basic methods of making: Double track oval with passing loop and siding (like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )
I'm not going anywhere near that, at least not in the short term. Such geometrical work is out of place in Templot, and not straightforward. Beginners don't want to be working straight off with swing angles and the rest if they have got any sense. That sort of thing is all so much easier in say AnyRail or XtrackCad that beginners are better staying there if that is what they want.

Terminus station design - Minories type with double track/engine release/parcels bay. Flowing single track terminus - aligning templates over a pre-drawn Template to ensure it flows nicely.
Yes, as soon as enough has been covered to make that describable without a stream of explanations of the basics as we go along.

For now my first target is to get as far as a replacement for this ancient video:

 http://templot.com/sk5/starter_track_plan_.sk5

with everything having been explained in the process.

Thanks for the feedback.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2018 00:14

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin,

I think you are doing fine. I can appreciate the difficulties of pitching the information at the right level given such a varied user-base. A user who is new to any software must be prepared to practice, make mistakes and learn - that is how we live all of our life.

Explaining the storage box concept is going to be a tricky one as you say. Understanding the concept of the control template and background templates is key to Templot, at least when you move past single turnout design. Are you able to have mouseover prompts for the menu when a user clicks on a background template ? A quick prompt as to the use of the make, copy and delete etc may be handy before a beginner ends up with no templates left in the storage box ( or duplicate copies of some ). Just a thought - you could maybe have a prompt 'off' setting savable in stored preferences.

Keep plodding through - the docs/videos will make a huge difference to Templot.

Regards
Rob


posted: 29 Jan 2018 00:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob Manchester wrote:
Are you able to have mouseover prompts for the menu when a user clicks on a background template?
Hi Rob,

Not easily, using the standard Windows menu functions. If I depart from those, the menus might not work in Wine.

The traditional Windows method is that hovering over a menu item puts a prompt in the status bar along the bottom of the screen.

At present Templot doesn't have such a status bar, although it could have, and it doesn't necessarily have to be at the bottom. It could display across the middle of the screen.

That would be quite a lot of work, and yet another update version before I can progress the Templot Companion.

But more than that, is the difficulty of writing the actual prompt in a few short words which mean more than is already on the menu. I don't know how to do that. :(

Possibly yet another "are you sure?" message after clicking it rather than before is the better option, with full explanation and cancel options.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2018 17:15

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
as someone who has been on a learning curve and now feels quite comfortable with most aspects of Templot , well everything up to slips and tandems anyway , I would agree with Rob that the beginner aspects that caused me most head scratching are not the real basic stuff ( and I think your new videos are too simplistic and rather long for the simple things they are showing )

I would say the beginner issues are

(a) The concept of the control template and all the various Make delete and copy to the control options ( I actually question why you need half of them )

(b) how to join track together , how to make ovals , curves etc

(c) PEG and notches , lots of TLAs and FLAS( three and four letter abbreviations ) , here for the beginner,

I think most beginners can insert a turnout and roam it etc , ( or should be ) , Its the next step , i.e. going beyond a template to a track plan consisting of many elements that flumexes beginners.

Once you have the Aaha moment ( i.e. when you wrap your head around the control and where it goes ) . ( and I still generate loads of duplicate backgrounds, but I now just go around deleting them after !), then the next issue is more to do with how to construct a prototype formation in Templot , i.e. the lack of track knowledge

SO to summarise

1. Basic beginners , quick and short intros to major functions , not sure , minutes of video needed

2. Intermediate , i.e. beyond the turnout template , parallel tracks , crossovers, basic peg and notch , advance and exit track etc

3. Advanced , more peg and notch , transitions , slips crossovers

4. specialised , tandems , split deflection , etc


dave
Last edited on 29 Jan 2018 17:18 by madscientist
posted: 29 Jan 2018 17:28

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

I'm not going anywhere near that, at least not in the short term. Such geometrical work is out of place in Templot, and not straightforward. Beginners don't want to be working straight off with swing angles and the rest if they have got any sense. That sort of thing is all so much easier in say AnyRail or XtrackCad that beginners are better staying there if that is what they want.


actually templot is easier to lay out ovals then say SCARM as it has no concept of swing angles ( or transitions ) and actually unless you use set track its very difficult to lay out a oval

Templot is a great track planning app, what with all the "make" functions , snap etc , maybe u dont want to hear that :D

Dave
Last edited on 29 Jan 2018 17:29 by madscientist
posted: 29 Jan 2018 17:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
I think your new videos are too simplistic and rather long for the simple things they are showing
I wondered that too.

That seems an almost inevitable reaction if you already know this stuff. It is surely all quite simple?

But several times I have read reports on web forums where the writer says something along the lines of "after 30 minutes I still hadn't got any further than the first start-up screen -- what's that all about?"

I honestly don't know how to proceed. The videos are time-consuming to produce and I don't want to be doing them if they are not really needed.

In fact I don't want to be doing any of it. I never would have released Templot in the first place had I known how much hard work would be involved just trying to explain it.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2018 20:19

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello Martin,
                   I believe you over think too much about how newcomers to using Templot will use your program. People need to become informed about prototypical track off their own bat if they want to make use of all its capabilities. I don't think you can spoon feed everything to users if they are unwilling to make some effort on their own about such things. You can only do your best after all which I think you are fulfilling well beyond what most would provide.
Regards.:) 

posted: 29 Jan 2018 20:46

from:

PRChappell
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin

"Double track oval with passing loop and siding ( like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )"  -  I should like to comment that most of us want this as we start - more shed or garage size - but most want to create at least one oval so that something can be run.


I would encourage you to keep this near the top of the list preferably with transitions into the curves.  This means that there are several things preceding this one but getting something running is usually a key objective for most of us.  Up and down some yard lengths is ok but to get something run in is so much better on an oval.


Just some thoughts


Best wishes


Peter


posted: 29 Jan 2018 21:07

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
PRChappell wrote:
Double track oval with passing loop and siding ( like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )"  -  I should like to comment that most of us want this as we start - more shed or garage size - but most want to create at least one oval so that something can be run.
Hi Peter,

A continuous run yes. An oval no.

An oval is a symmetrical shape with fixed curves and straight sides. No real railway is like that.

What you want is to curve round in a pleasing way from your station to another station, or a fiddle yard, or whatever. And then curve back round in a pleasing but hopefully slightly different way to return to the first station.

I'm obviously intending to cover all that.

But that's nothing like a Tri-ang set track oval, and in fact trying to replicate such in Templot is quite tricky, and not for beginners. Curves need to set to fixed angular lengths, and placed at specific geometrical locations, as in a CAD program. It's all doable, but not what Templot is primarily for. A series of flowing transition curves is much easier.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2018 21:12

from:

PRChappell
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin

Fine, yes, not an oval but a track that goes round the room! - your words describe what I was seeking and you clearly have what I had in mind already in hand.

Best wishes

Peter

posted: 29 Jan 2018 21:20

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
I think your new videos are too simplistic and rather long for the simple things they are showing
I wondered that too.

That seems an almost inevitable reaction if you already know this stuff. It is surely all quite simple?

But several times I have read reports on web forums where the writer says something along the lines of "after 30 minutes I still hadn't got any further than the first start-up screen -- what's that all about?"

I honestly don't know how to proceed. The videos are time-consuming to produce and I don't want to be doing them if they are not really needed.

In fact I don't want to be doing any of it. I never would have released Templot in the first place had I known how much hard work would be involved just trying to explain it.

regards,

Martin.
martin if you ever want a long treatise on why this  " I never would have released Templot in the first place had I known how much hard work would be involved just trying to explain it." is such a problem for you , Ill quite happily expend  a considerable time explaining why a Windows or Mac user ( i.e. a GUI user ) struggles so much and in fact the more expert  the user is ( i.e. an expert computer applications user , the more they would struggle.

its  quite obvious to a person like me , why you spend so much time explaining templot 

I say this in all humility and honesty 

regards 

dave 
Last edited on 29 Jan 2018 21:21 by madscientist
posted: 29 Jan 2018 21:28

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
But that's nothing like a Tri-ang set track oval, and in fact trying to replicate such in Templot is quite tricky, and not for beginners. Curves need to set to fixed angular lengths, and placed at specific geometrical locations, as in a CAD program. It's all doable, but not what Templot is primarily for. A series of flowing transition curves is much easier.


Funnily enough Templot  is far easier to use in terms of laying out " ovals " , i.e. train set " ovals " , firstly it has the concept of " swing" angles, a feature missing from say SCARM 

Secondly is has automatic double track, auto crossovers , etc , again features largely missing from packages like SCARM or RailModeler pro , where I find they are fine if you stick too set-track, but once you want to implement anything in flexi, you rapidly run into issues with lack of proper geometric curve functions 

Templets underlying capabilities are way way beyond these programs. But thats not the issue with Templot and what makes it hard for beginners 

dave 

posted: 29 Jan 2018 21:31

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:



But that's nothing like a Tri-ang set track oval......

cheers,

Martin.
Martin,

Maybe not the best descriptive text of mine, I didn't actually mean a regular shaped layout made of setrack type bits.........I knew what I was thinking about :D

Keep your chin up and plod on.

Rob


posted: 29 Jan 2018 22:08

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
martin if you ever want a long treatise on why this "I never would have released Templot in the first place had I known how much hard work would be involved just trying to explain it." is such a problem for you, I'll quite happily expend a considerable time explaining why a Windows or Mac user ( i.e. a GUI user ) struggles so much and in fact the more expert the user is (i.e. an expert computer applications user), the more they would struggle.
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the kind offer, but no thanks.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 29 Jan 2018 22:43

from:

Judi R
 
Sutton-on-Sea - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
PRChappell wrote:
Double track oval with passing loop and siding ( like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )"  -  I should like to comment that most of us want this as we start - more shed or garage size - but most want to create at least one oval so that something can be run.
I have to disagree on this. Templot's strengths are not about creating ovals or complete track layouts of any sort. Its roots lie in creating a template of a turnout or a group of turnouts that are as close as reasonably practicable to prototype practice. The ability to make that group larger and larger to include lengths of plain line (curved or otherwise) is besides the point and does not make best use of Templot's strengths.

Those who wish to set out a plan for an oval should be directed to SCARM or XtraCad or whatever. Indeed, when I wanted to quickly work out how some hidden storage loops could be laid out, I used SCARM. When I want to design my station throat I shall use Templot.

Judi R

posted: 29 Jan 2018 22:50

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
martin if you ever want a long treatise on why this "I never would have released Templot in the first place had I known how much hard work would be involved just trying to explain it." is such a problem for you, I'll quite happily expend a considerable time explaining why a Windows or Mac user ( i.e. a GUI user ) struggles so much and in fact the more expert the user is (i.e. an expert computer applications user), the more they would struggle.
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the kind offer, but no thanks.

regards,

Martin.
thats fine
regards

Dave 

posted: 29 Jan 2018 23:00

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Judi R wrote:
PRChappell wrote:
Double track oval with passing loop and siding ( like a Triang train set with a couple of track extension packs )"  -  I should like to comment that most of us want this as we start - more shed or garage size - but most want to create at least one oval so that something can be run.
I have to disagree on this. Templot's strengths are not about creating ovals or complete track layouts of any sort. Its roots lie in creating a template of a turnout or a group of turnouts that are as close as reasonably practicable to prototype practice. The ability to make that group larger and larger to include lengths of plain line (curved or otherwise) is besides the point and does not make best use of Templot's strengths.

Those who wish to set out a plan for an oval should be directed to SCARM or XtraCad or whatever. Indeed, when I wanted to quickly work out how some hidden storage loops could be laid out, I used SCARM. When I want to design my station throat I shall use Templot.

Judi R
as a user with as of today 12 Templot "layouts" under my belt , I would strongly disagree with your conclusions 
There  is no doubt that Templot originated  in the arena you describe, but its clear from the breath and width of the program today , with its support for sketchpads, baseboards , the " Make " functions , map imports, collision envelopes , etc  that the software is capable and in fact excels at " layout " design 

Thats not to confuse it with setback pick and place type design software, the primary difference being they use a fixed geometry , whereas Templot is far more capable in that , you " could " emulate settrack if you wished , but its strengths are in precision, breath of capability etc 

whether your layout is P4 or 00 , Templot is adept and quite fast at laying out flexitrack, in fact its arguably way better then SCARM or RailmodellerPro , as its provides transition curves , easements etc , which SCARM or RMPro cant . ( lets leave Xtrakcad as a bizarre creation it is ) 

I dont know about you , but today I find most PECO builders are building from Flexi and not set track curves and Templot is better at that then most of the "click and stitch" software 

I can guarantee you, I can create a geometric perfect double train train "oval " , i.e.  two mirrored curves joined by straights to be executed in RTR Flexitrack , faster and more perfect then in SCARM, in Templot 

regards 

Dave 

PS in that regard, the concept of teaching beginners the Oval and a few points etc , was more as a step to greater things then positioning Templot as an alternative to SCARM 
Last edited on 29 Jan 2018 23:03 by madscientist
posted: 29 Jan 2018 23:11

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Heres the thing

If you are a beginner and you are faced with Templot you have the following learning curves

1. A large and complex piece of software, that clearly requires a considerable learning curve

2. An interface to that software that is largely and completely counter intuitive as regards modern GUI software ( which the beginner may be familiar with )

3. A, initially bewildering array of options

4. The Help system ( for all the reasons we know ) that is incomplete , and I refer to the in-app help

5. A requirement that some understanding of prototype track work is necessary , that many modellers actually have no idea about in reality ( rather like they typically know nothing about signalling either )


Now add all that up and you have a tremendous learning curve.


All we can collectively say , it that , thank God we have Martins patience , and his knowledge of both model railway track and the prototype

The issue isn't simply Templot , its Templot combined with a lack of prototype understanding to boot


There is no easy answer and no magic bullet , all I can say is I'm glad Martin does what he does and I for one am a great beneficiary of his Wisdom and knowledge 

dave
Last edited on 29 Jan 2018 23:13 by madscientist
posted: 29 Jan 2018 23:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Dave.

I'm going to do my best to take beginners through the whole thing.

But that is not helped by the constant suggestion to beginners that the GUI is all wrong and counter-intuitive, and too difficult to understand.

I know that rather depends on whose intuition you are talking about.

But I have just re-read the first few pages of the Templot Explained section, and watched again the videos, and tried even harder than usual to put myself in the mind of a beginner. And I just can't see anything counter-intuitive on there?

 http://templot.com/companion/0_for_beginners.php

It may be counter-expectations, but I can't do anything about that. It's not my fault that some beginners may have spent years studying the Peco catalogue, or using SCARM, or whatever. All I can do is show them how Templot works.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:13

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Interestingly, or perhaps not, when I did a Templot workshop for my local model railway club some years ago, I chose to use an oval of track with a passing loop as the basis as it does demonstrate a good many of Templot's basic features. I also later showed one of the more advanced members the steps in generating a single slip, he already had the diamond in place. He was surprised how few extra steps this involved and happily went away confident that he could do so himself. This was pre Templot 2.
Perhaps I had the advantage of purchasing a second hand laptop just to run Templot on, so did not have any preconceptions as to how windows expected you to work. My previous computers were Acorn machines or work computers. I had had to learn to use at least four different word processors by then, all different. My basic approach was learn by experiment and read the help notes if I could not work it out. I was not on line back then. I reasoned that the most common problems encountered would be found in the question and answer section on the CD and sure enough they were. The thing I could not grasp at first were transition curves, but the tutorial soon sorted that out.
Templot has of course grown dramatically since then. :thumb:
Regards
Tony.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:17

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Thanks Dave.
....

I know that rather depends on whose intuition you are talking about.


the voluminous tombes that are Apples and Microsoft style guides for applications :D and the collective implementation that are the body of apps that use them 
Just get me wrong martin , its not a criticism of you , I am merely attempting to address , as I see it ( from the point of a professional applications programmer ) One   of the issues that makes Templot hard for beginners and why you regularly find it very frustrating trying to repeatedly to correct peoples mistakes or go over the same ground again and again 

I really dont think the solution is lots of videos,  by the way , too time consuming and without lots of feedback , you're too likely to produce stuff that may in fact not address the issues at all. 

The issue with templot is not the lack of info per se, or your erstwhile good motivations in providing it imho . The issue is a combination of user meets Templot issues 

but I can appreciate its a difficult subject 

regards 

Dave 


posted: posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:19

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
All I can do is show them how Templot works.

Indeed, and I think most people will say you have done enough in that regard 

30 Jan 2018 00:19

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin

Just had a quick look. I think you're right about starting at the basics, which is how to create a single template. Did wonder if saving a template for later use might be useful here. I don't think it's too early to talk about what the control template (the template you're currently working on) and background templates are. If you don't, people might get the feeling that there's an awful lot they don't understand.

I think encouraging anyone starting new with Templot to start with creating a single template, whatever their background, would be a good idea, as it's an excellent way to start getting the feel of the software. Push them in that direction. In fact, once they've done one, I'd encourage them to try others.

I did wonder about the New button. Using it might leave them a bit in the dark, or confused about how they approach things. Would introducing the concept via the Template menu be a better idea, as they'll need to know about that menu anyway?

Once the single template has been dealt with, what then? Think I'd leave layout planning as such until later. I'd suggest instead doing a bit more on more complex templates, such as a crossover, joining templates together, and modifying templates.

After that I'd run through a simple layout example, such as the very useful one you introduced ages ago, i.e. a loop and a few sidings.

One thing; I'd leave out mentioning that they might find Templot complex or bewildering, otherwise they will :(

My own view is that if Templot is approached in the right way it isn't that complex.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:25

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Perhaps I had the advantage of purchasing a second hand laptop just to run Templot on, so did not have any preconceptions as to how windows expected you to work. My previous computers were Acorn machines or work computers. I had had to learn to use at least four different word processors by then, all different. My basic approach was learn by experiment and read the help notes if I could not work it out. I was not on line back then. I reasoned that the most common problems encountered would be found in the question and answer section on the CD and sure enough they were. The thing I could not grasp at first were transition curves, but the tutorial soon sorted that out.


tada, therein lies a pointer to the issues that a " beginner " exposed to 20 years of Windows activity will suffer from , thats not a criticism  of Templot , merely an indication of what you have to do to  teach a beginner to use the software 

Again, I dont want to present it that this is the only or even primary issue, lack of prototype knowledge is one also, as is the users approach , is this really a settrack requirement etc 

I mean I remained stunned in my club , how many members have never used ANY  computer modelling software to plan a layout, in this day and age , how is that even possible ! :D

dave 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 00:26 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:31

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
My own view is that if Templot is approached in the right way it isn't that complex. 


 actually I would agree with you. once you wrap your head around the way the "program thinks " , you begin to realise  how most things are done.  Funnily I find , certain small things  awkward or difficult to find and certain big and complex things , relatively simple 

The biggest thing once you get past the  absolute beginner stage is the huge menu system and simply remembering where everything is 

I sympathise with Martins frustrations, I was for many years a writer of bespoke software , designed to clients specific requirements . I understand exactly the frustration with the issue of teaching non expert users ( the designers being experts and the users not!) how to use a piece of software largely designed to operate in its own closed environment . 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 00:33 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:39

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
as a summary of my comments

I really don't think Martin that you should do lots t more beginner stuff, perhaps simply organise what you have already done , which is a HUGE volume of work into an accessible format as you are prepared to give it time

after that , its " point the user " to the stuff time and forget about it. I think you worry too much about it :D

it is what it is in reality , ( as they say )

regards

Dave
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 00:40 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 00:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Nigel Brown wrote:
I did wonder about the New button. Using it might leave them a bit in the dark, or confused about how they approach things. Would introducing the concept via the Template menu be a better idea, as they'll need to know about that menu anyway?
Hi Nigel,

The NEW function repeats the template > new template menu item (CTRL+Q). All the beginner buttons repeat menu functions, they just represent an easy-to-find sub-set of the most-used functions.

I agree that the NEW function is a bit of an odd man out. It's there primarily for users who don't want to do track planning, just print a bog-standard template. I have tried to shunt such users into a separate way of doing things from the track planners. I'm not convinced it works very well, but I don't know how else it might be done.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 10:31

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello Martin,
                 I think too much worry is expended about people not being able to do this or do that. We keep hearing how Windows users do something this way or that. I don't believe this is true as Windows is changing all the time and its users manage to adapt. The same can be said about Android as well,and Linux is just the same. The key factor is people becoming familiar with a particular piece of software by just using it. I find word processing applications are much the same across all platforms.
When one first encounters a word progressing program it all seems overwhelming and confusing but as ones experience increases things become second nature and one sees the generic nature of them all. This is the same for any software as is illustrated by people adopting and using Android devices. People download and start using all sorts of apps without any previous experience simply because they wish to and are willing to try.
I think you need to step back a bit from worrying about the users of your software because if they want to use it they will adapt and learn.  I don't think it will ever be possible to fully document Templot because of the nature of its subject. Permanent way engineers took years to master their craft in days past and all without computers. In addition you cannot resist just adding another feature here or another tweak there because it gives you pleasure. :D
Regards.
Trevor.:)
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 10:37 by Trevor Walling
posted: 30 Jan 2018 11:12

from:

Ariels Girdle
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
My own take, as a moderately experienced user, is to agree with Trevor. We should not get too obsessed with making Templot easier and easier for beginners. There is only so far you can go. Some beginners seem unwilling to put in the time and effort to learn things properly, whatever you may do to help.

A lack of knowledge of real track is likely to be more of a handicap in the long run than misunderstanding Templot. I know of a number of people who have worked out how to squeeze a track design out of Templot; yet they do not understand how real track has changed over the years or what type of track would be appropriate for their period and location.

As Tony suggests, spending a short while with someone who is familiar with the program is likely to be far more beneficial than dramatic 'improvements' to the software itself. I think that organising formal workshops would be asking too much though.

Of at least equal concern ought to be a desire to keep the existing user base happy. Too many changes in a relatively short space of time, or efforts to 'dumb down' the software can be frustrating for existing users already familiar with Templot's functionality - particularly those like me who only need to use Templot on an occasional basis once their dream layout has been designed. Despite this, a few of the recent changes are indeed wonderful and beneficial to all, like the new slip function for example.

Templot is a superb program. I really don't know what we would all do without it. I can cope with learning all the changes if necessary.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 11:31

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I agree , given that wholesale changes to make the software more amenable to beginners is simply not a practical option and secondly given the HUGE amount of information about n text and videos that Martin has already produced , I think enough has been done already. Perhaps simply reorganising the existing material is enough to be getting on with

Dave

posted: 30 Jan 2018 12:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks all for the feedback and kind words.

Dave, you wrote:
I'm all sorted ... now happily using make-on-click mode
Which surprised me, because "happy" and "make-on-click mode" have never before occurred in the same sentence. At least not for me, and not for a lot of other users.

But they weren't beginners. And times change -- now that we have the make slip and make tandem functions (and hopefully make outside slip in future and possibly others), the need to work with overlaid partial templates is much reduced. Possibly eliminated for many users.

I'm wondering therefore, whether to have "make-on-click mode" as the default? This doesn't prevent anyone switching back to the classic mode if they prefer, and the setting is included in the saved program preferences.

Would that make life easier for beginners? And possibly reduce the incidence of duplicate templates which seem to bedevil some users.

It would need a bit of tweaking. The store toolbutton needs to be removed in "make-on-click mode" mode, and the toolbar colouring, and the wording on the menu changed so that "make-on-click mode" becomes "normal".

The big downside is that about 5000 topics on here become out of date at a stroke, along with most of the existing videos and other stuff. In fact almost all the detailed instructions for using Templot written in the last 20 years. But 90% of it is out of date anyway and waiting for a rewrite.

So it needs careful thought. And brings the Templot Companion to a halt yet again until I have thunk it, and if necessary released a program update.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 12:37

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote:
I did wonder about the New button. Using it might leave them a bit in the dark, or confused about how they approach things. Would introducing the concept via the Template menu be a better idea, as they'll need to know about that menu anyway?
Hi Nigel,

The NEW function repeats the template > new template menu item (CTRL+Q). All the beginner buttons repeat menu functions, they just represent an easy-to-find sub-set of the most-used functions.

I agree that the NEW function is a bit of an odd man out. It's there primarily for users who don't want to do track planning, just print a bog-standard template. I have tried to shunt such users into a separate way of doing things from the track planners. I'm not convinced it works very well, but I don't know how else it might be done.

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin

Yep I realised that New just repeated the template > new template function. I just had a feeling that pushing everyone through the menus might actually simplify things. Doing that you don't have to worry about people's intentions. "use template > new template" achieves the same effect for a beginner and is as easy to use, while introducing the template menu so they know what it's there for. Just my thoughts.

cheers
Nigel


Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 12:37 by Nigel Brown
posted: 30 Jan 2018 12:50

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Trevor Walling wrote:
...
                 I think too much worry is expended about people not being able to do this or do that. We keep hearing how Windows users do something this way or that. I don't believe this is true as Windows is changing all the time and its users manage to adapt. The same can be said about Android as well,and Linux is just the same. The key factor is people becoming familiar with a particular piece of software by just using it. I find word processing applications are much the same across all platforms.
..
Trevor.:)
Hi Trevor
Totally agree. Windows "style" is prevalent across most Windows personal applications, but once you get beyond that into serious applications then it tends to fall by the wayside. I became a professional software developer and implementer way back in 1969 and Windows only had marginal effects in many application areas. Over the last few years I've become involved in CAD software for my own uses, first for etching purposes, now for 3D printing applications, and in doing so have tried many CAD programs; very few could be said to have a Windows GUI, and most have a steeper learning curve than Templot.
I think the way to lead people into using Templot is, as is the case with many programs, is to start with some simple requirements, and adopt a prescriptive approach to actually get them to do something useful, while explaining what the actions are about.
Cheers
Nigel

posted: 30 Jan 2018 13:57

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback and kind words.

Dave, you wrote:
I'm all sorted ... now happily using make-on-click mode
Which surprised me, because "happy" and "make-on-click mode" have never before occurred in the same sentence. At least not for me, and not for a lot of other users.

But they weren't beginners. And times change -- now that we have the make slip and make tandem functions (and hopefully make outside slip in future and possibly others), the need to work with overlaid partial templates is much reduced. Possibly eliminated for many users.

I'm wondering therefore, whether to have "make-on-click mode" as the default? This doesn't prevent anyone switching back to the classic mode if they prefer, and the setting is included in the saved program preferences.

Would that make life easier for beginners? And possibly reduce the incidence of duplicate templates which seem to bedevil some users.

It would need a bit of tweaking. The store toolbutton needs to be removed in "make-on-click mode" mode, and the toolbar colouring, and the wording on the menu changed so that "make-on-click mode" becomes "normal".

The big downside is that about 5000 topics on here become out of date at a stroke, along with most of the existing videos and other stuff. In fact almost all the detailed instructions for using Templot written in the last 20 years. But 90% of it is out of date anyway and waiting for a rewrite.

So it needs careful thought. And brings the Templot Companion to a halt yet again until I have thunk it, and if necessary released a program update.

regards,

Martin.
I think is fatal to assume that feature X or feature Y is " useful " for beginners, without some sort of Broad consensus and user feedback. 
Simply because the method suits me ( I now have click to make on the left button and select on the right ) doesn't mean it would suit others ,

So the answer is " no" I wouldn't change anything around. Its risks effort for no gain 

If I was to draw any consensus from this thread , I would suggest that , outside a wholesale redesign , you have done more then enough to explain the current software in the many videos and text that you have created. I do not see much point in worrying too much about it.  if you wsh to spend time on " documentation " then perhaps merely organisating access to what's already produced is better then recreating or creating new content. 

I don't think the issue is documentation , there's more then enough 

your time , I might humbly add, is better spent adding features you feel adds to templots ability , then worrying too much about beginners understanding how to roam turnouts or ending up with duplicate templates ( an issue we can all resolve ourselves ) or whatever beginners get hung up about. 

Keep up the good fight 

Dave  


posted: 30 Jan 2018 14:19

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Dave.

An issue with make-on-click mode is that it is not possible to view (or print) the full track plan, because one template always remains behind in the control template. Any attempt to get round this almost inevitably results in a duplicated template when you begin further work.

I'm wondering how you are avoiding this without using delete to the control, and what would be the official GUI solution?

It's possible, and useful, to have a scratch dummy template which is not part of the track plan, and make that the control when you don't want any of the track plan templates to be in the control template. I often do that when posting box files here.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 14:26

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Nigel Brown wrote:
Trevor Walling wrote:
...
                 I think too much worry is expended about people not being able to do this or do that. We keep hearing how Windows users do something this way or that. I don't believe this is true as Windows is changing all the time and its users manage to adapt. The same can be said about Android as well,and Linux is just the same. The key factor is people becoming familiar with a particular piece of software by just using it. I find word processing applications are much the same across all platforms.
..
Trevor.:)
Hi Trevor
Totally agree. Windows "style" is prevalent across most Windows personal applications, but once you get beyond that into serious applications then it tends to fall by the wayside. I became a professional software developer and implementer way back in 1969 and Windows only had marginal effects in many application areas. Over the last few years I've become involved in CAD software for my own uses, first for etching purposes, now for 3D printing applications, and in doing so have tried many CAD programs; very few could be said to have a Windows GUI, and most have a steeper learning curve than Templot.
I think the way to lead people into using Templot is, as is the case with many programs, is to start with some simple requirements, and adopt a prescriptive approach to actually get them to do something useful, while explaining what the actions are about.
Cheers
Nigel
I really reply not  in the context of templot , but in general 

but your view is simply completely contary to the goals of modern apllication software largely running under Windows and to a lesser extent Mac OS , Linux can be largely ignored outside the server market. 
If you look at ( on the mac for example ) modern pcb design , e.g. Diptrace , or 2D cad like Draftsight or the huge 3D Solid works competitor , Fusion 360, you will see that the basics of Apple and Windows " style guides are followed , for  example 


Menus are uncluttered , most selection are via context , 
Toolbars with graphical elements are common 
Most are click to select followed by action 
Grouping on graphical elements is by direct mouse action 
Sorting is done by clicking column headings 
Text select is by mouse and consistent shift key extension 
Drag and drop is implemented 
Cut and paste works as you expect 

Colours are muted , dialogboxes hide uncommon features etc 

Hence the user can approach say Diptrace , see familiar menu structures, understand that " basic " features they use in say Word , also work in pcb layout, or in Fusion360. 

This is not haphazard , this is a result of years of design and implementation by developers in Apple , Microsoft , focus groups , academic research etc and the publishing of countless style guides and examples., the developers docs are littered with it. 

As a result even software like AutoCAD, that traditionally had very esoteric user interfaces , have in the last few revisions , largely begun to conform to the " standard " 

Why is this done ? 

Simply because the purpose is to lead beginners past the initial confusion stages and allow simple things to be done simply , because that's all most beginners want to do,

Of course , complex and powerful software like Fusion 360 ! Can't be mastered by intuition alone, getting to grips with any powerful software takes considerable effort , but we are not talking about " power " users. 

Today , users exposed to 20 years of GUIs expect software to confirm , by and large , to the conventions of modern GUI styles . as an experiment take a modern Word user and sit then in front of a copy of 1984 Wordstar , you'll fall about laughing at the struggles. 

To see how software has been influenced by such style guides , trace the development of MS word , today a very complex and powerful piece of software , 15 years ago it came with a keyboard template , which outlined all the custom keystrokes etc required to drive the software 

Today, Word has a handful of keystrokes and no template , ask yourself why that is ? 

The whole point of a GUI "style" ( which is a rather simplistic term ) is that similar actions across many different software applications are performed in a similar way. This leads the beginner intutiitively through his or her first steps as they progress to intermediate and expert use. It also reduces the need to remember " custom " user interfaces on an application by application basis. 

In this regard Macs are far better at this then Windows as the Aqua interface has remained far more consistent compared to Windows and as a result there is far more " convergence " of user interface amongst native Mac apps. 

Regards 

Dave 


Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 14:32 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 14:55

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Dave

My comments are directed solely at the question of getting newcomers started in Templot. I couldn't give a damn as to what other bits of software do, or are trying to do, or may do in future. I don't think it's relevant.

Nigel

posted: 30 Jan 2018 14:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
This is not haphazard, this is a result of years of design and implementation by developers in Apple, Microsoft, focus groups, academic research etc and the publishing of countless style guides and examples, the developers docs are littered with it.
Indeed. But the thing I notice is that without exception they are concerned with productivity business software, where "time is money".

I suggest that hobby software is different. Also of course computer games. It is supposed to be enjoyable to use, and time is not money.

Some folks have said that they find Templot so enjoyable it becomes addictive. I can't believe anyone ever became addicted to using Word.

When not Templotting I am mildly addicted to editing OpenStreetMap:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/about

The interface bears no resemblance to Word, that's for sure. Or Templot. I can spend hours on there if I'm not careful. :)

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:07

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Thanks Dave.

An issue with make-on-click mode is that it is not possible to view (or print) the full track plan, because one template always remains behind in the control template. Any attempt to get round this almost inevitably results in a duplicated template when you begin further work.

I'm wondering how you are avoiding this without using delete to the control, and what would be the official GUI solution?

It's possible, and useful, to have a scratch dummy template which is not part of the track plan, and make that the control when you don't want any of the track plan templates to be in the control template. I often do that when posting box files here.

regards,

Martin.
I actually have turned off the feature when I needed to do that ( or alternatively I have thrown a dummy piece in the screen to remain as the control ) 
Thinking about a GUI solution ( and this is a bit seat of the pants ) and comparing what one does in other packages like PCB design , CAD , 3D etc 

personally I think the  
one click should always be " select " , this is almost universal in GUI land 
then its usually double  click or context  menu to perform an " action "

so with that in mind 

single click to select
double click to convert the background template into the control ( i.e. if effect a delete to the control ) 
user performs actions

on either (a) selecting another background template or (b) double clicking on another template , the control template loosing the focus , is " returned " to a background and by definition stored  in the storage box , its not possible to produce duplicates using this method 

Copying a control should be done by conventional cut and paste mechanisms , i.e. the  template or control  is selected , Ctrl C'ed  and the user Ctrl Vs the copy ( which can either display on top of the  existing one or under the cursor pos , different software does it differently ) , The underlying control template is automatically returned to the background and the copy becomes the control 
I use the term " returned " as opposed to insert , because insert typically means crating a new entry , i.e. a duplicate 

In my own work with Template , I rarely copy , interesting , because most of the "Make " tools now create the track components I need. 


This removes  make, copy and wipe , in my view which are concepts  that are confusing to the beginner and in reality are not needed any way 

personally I think redesigning the user interface to remove the creation of duplicates would go along way to getting beginners  over the hump.  

But as I said all this is predicated by my previous comments on why bother !

regards 

Dave 





Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 15:20 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:22

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Nigel Brown wrote:
My comments are directed solely at the question of getting newcomers started in Templot. I couldn't give a damn as to what other bits of software do, or are trying to do, or may do in future. I don't think it's relevant.
Hi Nigel,

That has always been my approach too. I have never been able to understand that there is any common ground or need to set the paragraph spacing on a printed circuit board. It seems obvious that a user interface should be designed to suit the task in hand, not forced into a common mould.

But there are frequent calls for just that, so I think we should at least maybe listen.

However, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question: "What is the official GUI way to adjust the position of the start of a clothoid transition zone, while observing the effect at the far end of the track several yards away?"

Answers come there none, even from regular CAD users.

In Templot you zoom in on the far end, and then press the [ key. Simple.

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:25

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
The other option martin , would simply to allow the ESC key to " unmake " the control so made in the single click mode , ESC as a " back out " is fairly universal

posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:29

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Nigel Brown wrote:
Dave

My comments are directed solely at the question of getting newcomers started in Templot. I couldn't give a damn as to what other bits of software do, or are trying to do, or may do in future. I don't think it's relevant.

Nigel
you miss the point, todays user comes to a piece of software from a background of " driving " a PC i a GUI environment , where  largely actions are consistent across all types of software 
suddenly you are presented with a user interface , where nothing is familiar, and you wonder why users are confused 

I really dont want to get into a discussion of Templots GUI , unless Martins wants to ( on an academic discussion basis ) But I can tell you that a major issue is the way it implements its GUI , its not that in itself its not a fine GUI , ( it is ) its that is radically different to the conventions adopted 

In this I am addressing Martins frustrations , but as I have said , simply tinkering around the edges  is unlikely to address the issues ( although a way to prevent duplicates would be a useful start) nor is simply producing " yet" another video 

regards

dave 


posted: posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:37

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
This is not haphazard, this is a result of years of design and implementation by developers in Apple, Microsoft, focus groups, academic research etc and the publishing of countless style guides and examples, the developers docs are littered with it.
Indeed. But the thing I notice is that without exception they are concerned with productivity business software, where "time is money".

I suggest that hobby software is different. Also of course computer games. It is supposed to be enjoyable to use, and time is not money.

Some folks have said that they find Templot so enjoyable it becomes addictive. I can't believe anyone ever became addicted to using Word.

When not Templotting I am mildly addicted to editing OpenStreetMap:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/about

The interface bears no resemblance to Word, that's for sure. Or Templot. I can spend hours on there if I'm not careful. :)

Martin.
just to be clear, I am not comparing Templot with Word or Word with a PCB design package 
what I am comparing is the consistent way modern GUIs approach similar tasks like 

drag and drop 
group selection 
sorting columns 
extended selections 
common dialogs 

and so forth 

as whether one is addicted to software , thats another days discussion, personally I find Templot very interesting , but at the end of the day I need to get the track plan out of it 

even open street map, which is a fairly light weight package, conforms, you have context sensitive right click , you have graphic toolbars etc , simple menus , with conventional wording ( help , about etc )

and this is is not a good comparison compared to a powerful app like Templot 


30 Jan 2018 15:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
on either (a) selecting another background template or (b) double clicking on another template , the control template loosing the focus, is " returned " to a background and by definition stored  in the storage box , its not possible to produce duplicates using this method
Hi Dave,

It seems all this requires a possible condition where no template is selected? In other words that the control template doesn't exist?

That's just not possible in Templot. It can be invalidated by reducing its length to zero (try it) but it still exists.

I remember Brian Lewis (former owner of C&L) was much exercised by this in the early days of Templot. He was insistent that the screen should start up with an empty work area, and not have a template which he didn't want drawn across it. I explained that if it offended him it was easily hidden by pressing one key, but I couldn't work out any mechanism for it not to even exist.

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:42

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
 It seems obvious that a user interface should be designed to suit the task in hand, not forced into a common mould.



rather then endlessly debate this , I defer to Apple  and Microsoft , who by and large do not agree wth your perspective 


Thats not to say all elements of an application are common , obviously there are tasks in a PCB design package that are simply not present in say Word 


But all packages do ( or should do ) similar things in a GUI in a similar way 


Selection of elements 
movement of elements 
Dialogs 
menu structures 
the use of Colour 
extended selection 
column sorts 


etc etc 


the basic idea is the user doesn't have to relearn a whole host of common tasks ( or " discover " new ways of doing the same thing ) as they switch from software to software in a muti app environment typical of modern GUIs 

and no, this doesnt mean all software can be intuitively learned, but its a big aid to getting the beginner onto the first steps 
regards 


Dave 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 15:46 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:45

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I can’t help but think that the bulk of this thread should be moved to the “Off-topic” forum, so that Martin can concentrate on the Templot Companion in the way he thinks is best. If people don’t like or understand what’s written, they can either go elsewhere or make an effort to understand what they currently don’t.
Right now, at work, I’m grappling with a data sheet for a battery charger, which tells me how the chip works and how to use it. I’ve realised there’s terminology I don’t understand, but instead of telling Linear Technology to rewrite their data sheets for idiots like me, I’ve gone away and tried to learn and understand the terminology. Now the data sheet makes more sense.

Seems like a very apt analogy to me 😀

Cheers,
Paul

posted: posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:52

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Paul Boyd wrote:
I can’t help but think that the bulk of this thread should be moved to the “Off-topic” forum, so that Martin can concentrate on the Templot Companion in the way he thinks is best. If people don’t like or understand what’s written, they can either go elsewhere or make an effort to understand what they currently don’t.
Right now, at work, I’m grappling with a data sheet for a battery charger, which tells me how the chip works and how to use it. I’ve realised there’s terminology I don’t understand, but instead of telling Linear Technology to rewrite their data sheets for idiots like me, I’ve gone away and tried to learn and understand the terminology. Now the data sheet makes more sense.

Seems like a very apt analogy to me 😀

Cheers,
Paul
as martin continuously says , forums are discussion , you dont have to contribute if you dont want to and no-one including Martin is forced to read or write anything. at the end of the day its an academic discussion 

By the way as an EE with 30 years , data sheets have largely evolved to be consistent across major manufacturers . You tend to get summary features at the start , , a electronic symbol., typically followed by DC then AC characteristics , usually followed by a detailed operational discussion, followed by  information on package options, dimensions, PCB considerations and ordering information 

its exactly comparable to a modern GUI , because say a data sheet that threw all these concepts into a different order would be confusing  to most EEs, for example I would imagine  TI would get plenty of complaints if the filled the first two pages with the JEDEC pinouts and ordering info :D

Dave 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 16:10 by madscientist
30 Jan 2018 15:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Paul Boyd wrote:
I can’t help but think that the bulk of this thread should be moved to the “Off-topic” forum, so that Martin can concentrate on the Templot Companion in the way he thinks is best.
Hi Paul,

The snag is that I did ask for feedback about it.

I should have learned by now not to do that. :)

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 15:56

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
By the way as an EE with 30 years, data sheets have largely evolved to be consistent across major manufacturers . You tend to get summary features at the start , , a electronic symbol., typically followed by DC then AC characteristics , usually followed by a detailed operational discussion, followed by  information on package options, dimensions, PCB considerations and ordering information
But how do you conform to that format if the data sheet is for a bicycle?

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:00

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
on either (a) selecting another background template or (b) double clicking on another template , the control template loosing the focus, is " returned " to a background and by definition stored  in the storage box , its not possible to produce duplicates using this method
Hi Dave,

It seems all this requires a possible condition where no template is selected? In other words that the control template doesn't exist?

That's just not possible in Templot. It can be invalidated by reducing its length to zero (try it) but it still exists.

I remember Brian Lewis (former owner of C&L) was much exercised by this in the early days of Templot. He was insistent that the screen should start up with an empty work area, and not have a template which he didn't want drawn across it. I explained that if it offended him it was easily hidden by pressing one key, but I couldn't work out any mechanism for it not to even exist.

Martin.
hmmm, 
surely the situation does exist in Templot where no piece of track is currently the control , Im sure thats the case in some cases ( for example after Insert ) 

surely a simple pressing of ESC , simply reverses the click on make and returns the user to the situation just before they hit click , 

dave



posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:04

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
By the way as an EE with 30 years, data sheets have largely evolved to be consistent across major manufacturers . You tend to get summary features at the start , , a electronic symbol., typically followed by DC then AC characteristics , usually followed by a detailed operational discussion, followed by  information on package options, dimensions, PCB considerations and ordering information
But how do you conform to that format if the data sheet is for a bicycle?

Martin.
this is becoming a little existential !! :D
all I am saying , is that the idea behind consistent user actions across software for basic things like selection , movements , cut and paste , drag and drop , colour usage, dialogs etc  is to ensure " as best as possible " that users are presented with " common " actions in a similar way 

Templot is a design package , its a piece of visually driven software , it has actions that are common across many similar software applications ( selecting  things , copying things menus, dialogs, heh  even scroll bars  etc )  its not a bicycle :D

by definition if it was easy for beginners to use, you wouldn't be having this debate 

dave   
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 16:07 by madscientist
posted: posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:17

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
hmmm, 
surely the situation does exist in Templot where no piece of track is currently the control , Im sure thats the case in some cases ( for example after Insert )
Hi Dave,

No, it is simply hidden. It still exists.

That's an option after Insert. There are other options you can try -- see on the storage box: options > on store & background from the trackpad > menu options.

The reveal option is fun. That was the default for a while a few years ago.

By the way, if you didn't realise that the control template still exists after storing a copy of it on the background, I think you may have missed the fundamental working method of Templot. That is the essential mechanism which allows the building of multiple overlaid partial templates.

regards,

Martin.

30 Jan 2018 16:17

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
By the way as an EE with 30 years, data sheets have largely evolved to be consistent across major manufacturers . You tend to get summary features at the start , , a electronic symbol., typically followed by DC then AC characteristics , usually followed by a detailed operational discussion, followed by  information on package options, dimensions, PCB considerations and ordering information
But how do you conform to that format if the data sheet is for a bicycle?

Martin.

oh , having looked a data sheet for a bicycle in the meantime 

The data sheet (more a brochure) conforms to what I would expect , I find summary features and a picture at the start , in the middle i get more details , at the end I get ordering information , contact  information and addresses 

hence my " expectation " as a novice bike buyer is enhanced because the information is presented in a format that  I tend to be familiar with. 

there being only so much mileage we can get from this analogy :D

dave 

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:22

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
hmmm, 
surely the situation does exist in Templot where no piece of track is currently the control , Im sure thats the case in some cases ( for example after Insert )
Hi Dave,

No, it is simply hidden. It still exists.

That's an option after Insert. There are other options you can try -- see on the storage box: options > on store & background from the trackpad > menu options.

The reveal option is fun. That was the default for a while a few years ago.

By the way, if you didn't realise that the control template still exists after storing a copy of it on the background, I think you may have missed the fundamental working method of Templot. That is the essential mechanism which allows the building of multiple overlaid partial templates.

regards,

Martin.
Thats fine, in essence whether something is " hidden " or not there is somewhat of an esoteric discussion , using click to make  and pressing " ESC" to then hide the control etc is in effect the same as the control going away ( for a beginner) 
As of yet I have no requirement to use partial templates I find the Make functionality has covered most circumstances including a big layout of a prototype with 46 points .  Im sure in time I will have to grapple with it , but in the end , Im just trying to design and build 00-sf track work  not get a MSC in templot :D

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Well at least we agree that Templot is not a bicycle. :)

But I'm not convinced that it is simply a variation on a Word Processor or a Spreadsheet.

I think it is something completely different, and works better for not trying to be such a thing.

Having learned to drive a car, I don't expect the knowledge to be much help in flying a helicopter.

The problem for beginners is that they do sometimes expect that.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:35

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
Well at least we agree that Templot is not a bicycle. :)

But I'm not convinced that it is simply a variation on a Word Processor or a Spreadsheet.

I think it is something completely different, and works better for not trying to be such a thing.

Having learned to drive a car, I don't expect the knowledge to be much help in flying a helicopter.

The problem for beginners is that they do sometimes expect that.

regards,

Martin.
the analogy isnt correct martin, after all Templot is a software application with a graphical interface .  IN that , it has common features with many other such applications.  
I dont think  trying to present Templot, as to so " wierd " as to be considered unique really stands ups to inspection. 

SO the user arriving at " yet another Windows app" thats simply called Templot has a reasonable expectation that actions that are common across Windows apps , works the same way in Templot 

If it doesnt , work like that , thats purely your prerogative, but the result is that you create a learning curve that beginners may find difficult to overcome. Some obviously will and others wont, in the mean time , they will " cry for help " 

Theres no real answer here, there is an option (a) and and option (b) . (a) makes changes so beginners do find it easier to get started ( whatever those changes are )  or (b) , Naw, it is what it is , suck it up , ( you'll find plenty of Unix software like that by the way :D

Dave 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 16:37 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
That's fine, in essence whether something is " hidden " or not there is somewhat of an esoteric discussion .... then hide the control etc is in effect the same as the control going away ( for a beginner)
I strongly disagree with this.

If I hide this cup of coffee behind this book, I can't see it.

But I better had know it's there, because otherwise I could knock it over and make a complete mess of my desktop.

And if I know it is there, I can have a drink from it if I want.

There is always a control template. It is simply not possible for it not to exist. I think a beginner needs to know that in order to understand what Templot is and does -- which is to adjust that control template to your requirements. If it didn't exist, Templot itself would cease to exist.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:43

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

Having learned to drive a car, I don't expect the knowledge to be much help in flying a helicopter.


true, but generally the door handles on the helicopter work to open the door , and the switches marked " cabin " lights , reasonably do what they say

on the other hand imagine the user faced with the door handle being a button placed behind the starboard flight lamp, the instructor being an expert user, loves this arrangement as , he walks quickly to the chopper, he hits the button as he passes the winglet and by the time he reaches the door, it has sprung  open and he jumps in, No more fiddling with a handle standing in the rain for him !!!

One might reasonably surmise, however,  that the beginner might have issues with simply getting into the helicopter and no doubt the frustrated instructor would be bedevilled with demands to explain how to open the door.

......:D

dave
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 17:07 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:44

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
The snag is that I did ask for feedback about it.

Yes, but most of the "discussion" is not about the Templot Companion!
For what it's worth, my own feeling is that you should write the Companion how you want to, and not try to cater for everyone (I have a feeling that doesn't sound right, I'm not intending to offend anyone!).  If anyone finds they don't understand anything, then they can research or ask for themselves.  That's sometimes the fun bit - finding out what you don't know and filling the gaps!

Going right back to the beginning, how do you define "beginner"?  You seem to be using the definition as a beginner to trackwork, but was that the intent?  In this context, I would define it as a beginner to Templot.  It's a bit like me using Altium for PCB design at work - I know how to do PCB design, but I'm not always clear how to get Altium to do what I want.  Altium's User Guides then tell me how to do what I want, but they don't tell me when I should use stitching vias, or what the effect of having a ground trace between the pads of an inductor in a DC-DC converter circuit might be.  I'm expected to know that general stuff before picking up a PCB design tool.  Same principle applies to Templot, I think!

I certainly didn't know a quarter of what Templot was asking me when I first started using it (from 0.7-something, I think) but once I knew what I didn't know, I went off and learnt about trackwork so that I could use Templot effectively!

Cheers,

Paul

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:50

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
madscientist wrote:
That's fine, in essence whether something is " hidden " or not there is somewhat of an esoteric discussion .... then hide the control etc is in effect the same as the control going away ( for a beginner)
I strongly disagree with this.

If I hide this cup of coffee behind this book, I can't see it.

But I better had know it's there, because otherwise I could knock it over and make a complete mess of my desktop.

And if I know it is there, I can have a drink from it if I want.

There is always a control template. It is simply not possible for it not to exist. I think a beginner needs to know that in order to understand what Templot is and does -- which is to adjust that control template to your requirements. If it didn't exist, Templot itself would cease to exist.

regards,

Martin.
OK , its semantics, in computers  "hidden" and "not there" are often interchangeable , lots of my deleted files are actually "hidden"  but to the beginner they are " not there " i.e. deleted ( for more info see Facebook legal challenge :D
I fully  get the fundamental idea that in essence Templot is a program that carries out actions on a single "component " the control , in that sense it has a common feature with many similar graphical packages , the " background " in essence simply being a form of historical record of modified control templates 

What we are discussing however is a methodology to make it difficult for users to unintentionally create duplicate facsimiles of the control.  

whether or not that hides or doesnt hide the control is not the issue 

dave

posted: 30 Jan 2018 16:57

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Paul Boyd wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
The snag is that I did ask for feedback about it.

Yes, but most of the "discussion" is not about the Templot Companion!
For what it's worth, my own feeling is that you should write the Companion how you want to, and not try to cater for everyone (I have a feeling that doesn't sound right, I'm not intending to offend anyone!).  If anyone finds they don't understand anything, then they can research or ask for themselves.  That's sometimes the fun bit - finding out what you don't know and filling the gaps!

Going right back to the beginning, how do you define "beginner"?  You seem to be using the definition as a beginner to trackwork, but was that the intent?  In this context, I would define it as a beginner to Templot.  It's a bit like me using Altium for PCB design at work - I know how to do PCB design, but I'm not always clear how to get Altium to do what I want.  Altium's User Guides then tell me how to do what I want, but they don't tell me when I should use stitching vias, or what the effect of having a ground trace between the pads of an inductor in a DC-DC converter circuit might be.  I'm expected to know that general stuff before picking up a PCB design tool.  Same principle applies to Templot, I think!

I certainly didn't know a quarter of what Templot was asking me when I first started using it (from 0.7-something, I think) but once I knew what I didn't know, I went off and learnt about trackwork so that I could use Templot effectively!

Cheers,

Paul
in fairness, martin asked what he should be doing for beginners, I and others feel that he has already done far more documentation and help videos that a lot of even more complex software has out there and that making more videos in my view isnt the solution 
The discussion has evolved to try and examine what issue beginners might face encountering Templot  and in that thread we have discussed my issue with duplicate background template creation , an issue that others users have also mentioned over time 

in the middle of that we are having a rather academic discussion on GUIs, and helicopters and bicycles :D

I think we also need to be careful about the definition of a beginner and the issue of track work knowledge 

Undoubtably to get the best out of templot you need " some " understanding of real track , how much is a debatable thing. Templot essentially is partially " an expert system " embodying Martins knowledge of real track into software 

I dont characterise beginners are those with or without  prototype track knowledge , I characterise beginners as people that have not encountered Templot before . the fact that the user is a permanent way engineer is not going to help them get going in the first basic steps of Templot , Id wager 


Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 17:00 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:14

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides

If anyone finds they don't understand anything, then they can research or ask for themselves. That's sometimes the fun bit - finding out what you don't know and filling the gaps!


taking a leaf from Mr Rumsfeldt

a user that has a known unknown can largely search for an find a solution , assuming the documentation is actually there in the first place

a user with an unknown unknown , struggles far more . because they dont " get it"

getting the user from the unknown unknown to the known unknowns is the issue

one option is " suck it up", or as we say RTFM , whether the manual actually exists or not and is in fact intelligible

the other option is to examine if its worth providing features that aid beginners
whats not useful imho is creating more pages of a manual , when the basic problem probably isnt there in the first place 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 17:15 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:23

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin

I have been following this thread with interest as a comparative new comer to Templot. In terms of helping people get into Templot via watching videos I would like to suggest a route that I think would be useful to many and progressive in its approach. My idea is to slowly develop a through station. Each of the steps below should be a separate video with talk over commentary as that, I think, is easier for you to do and keeps the flow better

Step 1
Set gauge. Starting with the default turnout in a curve convert it to plain track. Show how F4 can be used to change the length, explain peg, how the peg can be changed ends, how F6 can be used to change the curvature, how F7 can be used to move it, how F8 can be used to rotate it, how Ctrl-F10 can be used to swell. Save the template.

Step 2
Change the plain track to track with a turnout, change the hand, change the face, F5 to change the size, explain switch sizes, Ctrl-F9 to roam, Ctrl-F5 to orbit, F3 to change approach length, Ctrl-F12 to change exit length, geometry - different standard exit lengths. Save the template.

Step 3
Make branch track, explain that new track is now the control and turnout is on the background, make turnout control again, delete branch, make return track, mint from current new turnout, convert to plain track, F7 move and snap to return track. Open storage box and explain contents. Explain Insert to write control to background. Save the template.

Step 4
Make turnout the control, split approach track, make turnout the control, split exit track, make double track turnout side, quit, explain track spacings, change turnout side spacing, make double track TS, make return curve the control, extend it, change curvature to nearly align with double track, click double track, peg align tools, make transition, try left, try right, choose correct one, make transition, use extend/shorten to link transition to return curve and double track.

Step 5
Make original exit curve the control, extend it, insert turnout in it, make ordinary crossover, trim tracks to new turnout using zoom in and mouse action to change sensitivity.

Step 6
Convert new turnout to half diamond, convert half diamond to full diamond, trim track again to fit.

Step 7
Template mint from current, change hand, geometry invert curving, F7 to snap to end of diamond, Ctrl-F5 to orbit, peg to 9, F3 to extend to meet diamond.

Step 8
Maybe this is adventurous but make half diamond the control, convert diamond to single slip. At least this shows that making a straightforward slip is not impossible.

I'm sure that there are many, many other things that can be added to what I have listed but I think this would cover quite a lot of what many people want to get out of Templot for starters. Other things could obviously be built onto this developing station as the traffic increases and the line is fully doubled and the station yard and engine shed areas become busier, the local branch track gets built then doubled so there is a double junction, the curves get tight in one bit so the track spacing has to be increased, transitions are needed between straights and curves and between reverse curves and on and on. 

There should be encouragement for new users to go through the menus and to just try using different features in a gash layout remembering that no one will die as a result of getting anything wrong there. Especially important should be the concept of not starting to plan their wanted layout until they are quite comfortable with making all the features they want in their final product. More haste, less speed should be the motto.

I think I have dug a big enough hole for myself now and will retreat into it while the flak flies!

Cheers

Fraser
Attachment: attach_2632_3197_First_steps_in_Templot.box     159

posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:27

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
thats some " order", there are hours and hours of video in what you suggest

I mean " explain switch sizes " is probably an hour in itself 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 17:27 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:36

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
thats some " order", there are hours and hours of video in what you suggest

I mean " explain switch sizes " is probably an hour in itself
Not necessarily if the explanation says that a 4 is only found in sidings and a 10 or bigger is more likely on a main line and that the switch sizes must change as the angle changes  and that further details can be found at http:// . . . .

The object as I see it is to get potential users actually driving the program and becoming familiar with its processes and let them acquire the necessary knowledge of switch sizes etc from external sources or from pages in the companion.

Fraser

posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:40

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
FraserSmith wrote:
madscientist wrote:
thats some " order", there are hours and hours of video in what you suggest

I mean " explain switch sizes " is probably an hour in itself
Not necessarily if the explanation says that a 4 is only found in sidings and a 10 or bigger is more likely on a main line and that the switch sizes must change as the angle changes  and that further details can be found at http:// . . . .

The object as I see it is to get potential users actually driving the program and becoming familiar with its processes and let them acquire the necessary knowledge of switch sizes etc from external sources or from pages in the companion.

Fraser
but if you look through the existing videos , you will see almost every concept has already been covered in one form or another .Theres a lovely video of Martin designing over a sketch and producing a set of sidings etc 

I mean a simple video demonstrating the roam feature is several  minutes long, what you suggest is hours of video and many hours to produce it 

will users even sit through something that long , I doubt it 

I think its unrealistic to expect the user to be hand held through a complete creation process, Does Autocad videos do that , no , by and large they are used to illustrate a certain feature 

its a big ask , in my opinion , and its just my opinion 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 17:42 by madscientist
posted: 30 Jan 2018 17:45

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
it should also be remembered that videos are not necessarily the best or only way

some people are kinetic learners, they are best shown physically

others learn best from printed text , that they can peruse in their own way and at their own speed

Others like video

The trouble with video is when the user following it does something wrong and cant understand how he got there or how he gets out of it .

I teach sailing, you cant learn to sail from a video , ultimately you have to go out and make a balls of it , which is why er have a rescue service

whats templot rescue service , Martin !!! :D

posted: 30 Jan 2018 18:05

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
FraserSmith wrote:
I have been following this thread with interest as a comparative new comer to Templot. In terms of helping people get into Templot via watching videos I would like to suggest a route that I think would be useful to many and progressive in its approach. My idea is to slowly develop a through station. Each of the steps below should be a separate video with talk over commentary as that, I think, is easier for you to do and keeps the flow better
Hi Fraser,

Many thanks for that.

It is in fact exactly what I'm working on. To replace the old "track plan" tutorial from 2000 which did much the same for the first version of Templot.

However, the videos will not have a spoken commentary. It is just too much effort to do and synchronise with the screen, and almost impossible to edit afterwards if it contains mistakes or important details are missed. It also multiplies the video file size for downloading by a factor of about 5.

Instead I have settled on the interactive FBR video format with frequent pauses to read the notes. This seems to be the best hybrid format of being able to watch what happens, and read a text-based explanation, but without being faced with a long page of text.

However, before we can start the first video in the sequence I have been setting the groundwork with a few basic concepts which are not necessarily obvious. For example "hand" in Templot is not the same meaning as "hand" in the Peco catalogue.

I asked for feedback about what I have done so far, and what I was really wanting to know is about the tone and style, and the information delivery rate. It can be more or less chatty, it can be dragged out, or packed into a few longer more frequent notes. The actual length of the video clips is quite short without the pauses.

Also, that is just the "Templot Explained" beginners guide. There remains the rest of the Templot Companion, which is the reference section and will be mostly plain text and screenshots as before. In fact mostly updated from the previous version. So where in the videos a detailed explanation is needed, it will be a clickable link into the reference part of the the Companion.

This unfortunately leads to a chicken and egg situation over which to do first. When first published the videos are likely to have such links going nowhere, but with the best will in the world I can only do so much at a time.

What is important to me is that I do all this only once. If Templot needs some basic changes in working method those changes must be made now, before I go any further with the Companion.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 30 Jan 2018 23:14

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
I teach sailing, you cant learn to sail from a video , ultimately you have to go out and make a balls of it
But ultimately you have to practice, practice, practice. After the first few swims after tentative gybes you either learn to almost sail by the lee before you gybe and realise that you have to cross the boat quicker to keep the balance or you keep swimming or you give up ever gybing and always tack instead or you give up sailing. When you go back you will see that that the former above is how they tell you to do it in the video and youthen realise the significance of what was being said. You then go back out there and practice again and again until it becomes second nature. (Gybing explained)

That practice is what is needed with Templot and it's something that many will avoid just like some avoid gybing and as a result they will never be able to go where they want with their track planning. It really is a case of the more you put in the more you will get out. Yes Martin's interface is non-standard but he was there first and it's Microsoft that has ignored his method of working and has feather bedded users into believing that you don't need to think very deeply about how to do things. When you see the way in which most users create documents in Word you realise that the vast majority of them don't have a clue about how to use the program correctly. In any case it is a pretty crap piece of software where loads of things just don't work properly. On the other hand WordPerfect was an exceptionally good word processor. 25 years ago in it's DOS incarnation it could do everything properly that Word still cannot do as the underlying document structure is so much better than that used in Word. It's very much a VHS/Betamax situation where the better solution has been beaten by the poorer product backed up by better marketing. The Function key based approach of WP worked then just like Martin's Function key approach has worked with Templot. That doesn't suit everyone but it is what it is and if you want an extremely flexible and powerful template creating piece of software then you have to accept it. I like it as it is just as I liked the WP keyboard template. Yes it's hellishly frustrating initially to remember where everything is but slowly, with repetition, the fog clears. It could have been kept more simple but then the program would not be as capable as it is now. There is no way that the interface is going to change, unless Martin has found the Elixir of Life, so we have to accept it as it is and get on with it. If that means that some try it and give up then so be it. The warnings that it is not a "join bits of track together" program are there in the opening web pages. Perhaps it should say here be dragons to keep the timid away. What is really needed is for Martin to say that for the next 3, 6, 12 months he will not be able to answer simple questions while he works on the Companion and let others on this forum answer them. As that work progresses the increasing body of the Companion will become more able to answer most of the usual questions so releasing him to do more work on the Companion. On the other hand he might need to have a programming fix every now and then!

Enough of me telling Martin what he should and shouldn't do.

Fraser

 
Last edited on 30 Jan 2018 23:16 by FraserSmith
posted: 31 Jan 2018 00:36

from:

FraserSmith
 
Dundee - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin

I hadn't realised the problems associated with the narrated videos so I see why you chose the FBR format.

Your videos such as the "Templot Explained - hand and direction" are just about right in speed of introduction of concepts. I think you could cover more topics to include more of the items I listed in Step 1 above as they are basic template manipulation techniques that get used in many situations but keeping the video to three minutes or less. I don't think they want to be dragged out as they can be watched over again if needed. You could always put in "More information may be found at (link) where Link may be empty to start with but it's a placeholder for when you get time to expand on a topic. The "may" can be taken two ways: in some pages there may be information, in others there may not.  At least you don't then have to re-edit the videos.

That then answers your chicken and egg situation question. The links will go somewhere but it may just say that it's a placeholder for information that may be created in the future. You should put a note to that effect at each section in your new Video List page so that users are aware of the dynamic nature of the Companion and that only certain pages will hold content for the time being.

I fully understand your need to do this only once and I think you could (should) freeze Templot in its present state. Others may like to offer their support for this idea. It currently allows users to do everything that they could possibly want to do now that you have automatic slip and tandem turnout functions. I can't imagine what else people could possibly want. Ok some might want to be able to make double slips over irregular diamonds but there is a way that they can do that if they really have to.

Maybe you also need to put a sticky note in the "I wish it could" section to say that program development work has been temporarily suspended while the Companion is fleshed out. Existing users, well those who use the Forum anyway, will be well aware of the situation and I hope would be understanding of your desire to get the Companion updated. Yes they can leave suggestions but they must realise that no action will be taken for n months. Again other users may offer their support of this idea too.

The two big questions you have to deal with are a) whether you can ignore the lure of another bit of programming and b) can you ignore at least some of the requests for help?

HTH as it's well past bed time

Fraser



posted: 31 Jan 2018 01:16

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Well said Fraser!

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

posted: 31 Jan 2018 10:08

from:

Judi R
 
Sutton-on-Sea - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I agree with Fraser ... Martin, we are grateful beyond words for what you have given us and I for one am very happy with Templot just the way it is. An up-to-date Companion complete with FBR videos will be the icing on the cake.

Judi

posted: 31 Jan 2018 10:45

from:

Charles Orr
 
Leicester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Just for my two penn'orth, I agree with Fraser as well.  :)

Charles

posted: 31 Jan 2018 11:27

from:

Tony W
 
North Notts. - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
So do I.
Regards
Tony.

posted: 31 Jan 2018 22:04

from:

Trevor Walling
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hello,
And me too.
Regards.
Trevor.:)

posted: 1 Feb 2018 07:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
FraserSmith wrote:
I fully understand your need to do this only once and I think you could (should) freeze Templot in its present state. Others may like to offer their support for this idea. It currently allows users to do everything that they could possibly want to do now that you have automatic slip and tandem turnout functions. I can't imagine what else people could possibly want.
Hi Fraser, and everyone,

Thanks for that. :)

I said I needed to do a think and I've thunk. I'm not going to change Templot's working method to make it more like Microsoft or Apple or Unix or anything else. Mainly because I have been unable to properly understand what that would mean in relation to model track planning. Templot developed the way it did because it was the best way I could find to carry out the desired task.

So yes I'm going to try very hard to freeze it in its present state, at least as far as any changes which would affect the Templot Companion and videos. Adding the second row of beginner buttons and the STOP button on the mouse action panel made it necessary to redo the first Templot Explained video, and mean that a lot of quite recent screenshots etc. are already out of date.

The two big questions you have to deal with are a) whether you can ignore the lure of another bit of programming and b) can you ignore at least some of the requests for help?
That doesn't mean there won't be additions, rather than changes. I do need a programming fix occasionally. :)

There are plenty of things still on my NOD list. Make outside slip and make scissors crossover would be nice. Of course those and the slips and tandems are not really new functions, just a convenient shortcut to using the existing ones. In a similar vein would be an easier way for narrow-gauge modellers to get started.

In the entirely new category would be more up-to-date support for flat-bottom track. At present we stop short at renewals before about 1970. The vertical 1432mm designs aren't covered at all. When I started on Templot that was so recent that only a very few were modelling it. Nowadays it is ancient history.

Then there is the embarrassingly primitive BGS background shapes format, which has been pushed beyond what was sensible. It should have been scrapped and replaced with something more capable years ago. The sketchboard was an attempt to do that, but missed the mark in many ways, so that we now have the two running side-by-side without any proper integration between the two.

Yes I do often ignore requests for help, especially if they come as direct emails. I haven't got time to write explanations which can't be seen by everyone. Also there are many requests for help on RMweb and other forums where the style of modelling or prototype are beyond anything I know about, and I don't feel I can say anything useful. Getting the Companion up to date will make it a lot easier to deal with other requests, if I can simply post a link. That was generally the case in the early years of Templot, I want to get back to that happy state if I can.

Thanks again for the feedback. February already. I need to get on with the Companion before the sun starts shining.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 1 Feb 2018 09:42

from:

Charles Orr
 
Leicester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

That is really good to hear.  

I think you have made a very sensible decision.

Charles

posted: 1 Feb 2018 12:08

from:

Godfrey Earnshaw
 
Crawley - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,
Let me second that.
I have just subscribed to Spotify and believe me there is nothing natural about it, despite it being made for mobile phone, PC etc
You just have to get to it and learn all the moves.

Godders

posted: 1 Feb 2018 13:14

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

Glad to hear that you have made a decision on the way forward and I hope that you don't get to side tracked until you think you have made sufficient progress.

Phil

posted: 1 Feb 2018 16:28

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

I am in 100% agreement with your plan. I am also in hope that you are right and we do get some sun this year !

Good luck

Rob


posted: 1 Feb 2018 19:23

from:

Andrew Barrowman
 
USA

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
When Martin started developing Templot I doubt if he was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

:D

posted: 1 Feb 2018 20:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Andrew Barrowman wrote:
When Martin started developing Templot I doubt if he was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.
:)

I don't remember "expecting" anything at all. Except perhaps eye-strain.

Bear in mind that the internet hadn't been invented (or at least, we knew nothing about it), and the program code was stored on an audio cassette tape. That in itself being a huge leap forward from the punched paper tape I had been using a few years earlier. I remember buying a brand new cassette player and drilling a hole in the side for a DIN socket.

Here's something I have posted before:



WEST MERCIAN EM GROUP NEWSLETTER, SEP 1980

"Our last meeting, held at Broadwas Village Hall on 7th Sep 1980, was one of the liveliest we have had. Ten members were present and among matters discussed were
....
....

A most interesting development was then described by Martin Wynne.

Neville Fairbairn had asked Martin for help in setting out a turnout from a curved road. From this request Martin had gone on to devise a system for enabling any turnout to be drawn out on 1mm graph paper by even the most inexperienced.

Given the radius of the main line, the crossing angle and switch type, Martin can supply the X and Y co-ordinates of the rail running face at every chair position. From this data it is easy to construct a turnout template, indeed Martin did it in about 20 minutes, explaining as he went.

Thus the days of track plans being juggled to suit the templates available from commercial sources are over - pointwork can now be made to suit the site as was done in full-size practice.

Needless to say the figures for the various offsets are produced by a micro-computer, using a program written by Martin. This must be one of the most interesting developments in modelling in recent years.
"



Kind words there from the late Roy Miller. What would Roy have made of Templot today? But 20 solid minutes poring over 1mm graph paper! For one template! With my eyes nearly 40 years older I can understand why there were so few takers at the time.

By the way, Roy was the inventor of "EM minus 2", now popular as 00-SF (4-SF in Templot).

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 1 Feb 2018 21:31

from:

Charles Orr
 
Leicester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

That is classic content.

Coincidentally exactly the same scale that I am currently using to construct my Magnum Opus.

Charles

posted: 27 Feb 2018 10:50

from:

Mark Barry
 
Australia

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
This is definitely an interesting thread.  As a relative new comer to Templot (and model railways) but experienced computer user (1979-) I also have a few observations that you may find interesting.

When first working with a specialist application I find it critical to understand the fundamental 'building block'.  Maybe an example will help understand what I mean; a 2D CAD application 'drawing' is made of 'objects', where an 'object' is ; line, arc, polyline, circle, NURBS curves, etc.  There could also be 'objects' that contain other objects, groups of objects (arranged in layers?). The 'object' is the fundamental element.

Fraser's comments on the WordPerfect (WP) Vs Word word processors bought a smile to my face - I remember those wars!  The fundamental building block of MS Word is the 'paragraph'.  A Word document is a collection of 'paragraphs' which are made up of 'characters' and arranged in 'sections'.  There are also special 'paragraph' cases, e.g tables.  Once you understand this structure controlling the 'formating/look' of a document is much simpler. If you apply a 'font' to a 'paragraph', it affects all characters in the paragraph whereas if you apply font to a 'character' it only affects that character. This has remained unchanged in MS Word since the very beginning (I remember teaching MS Word v3 and v4 in the 80's).  WP worked more like a typewriter [mode-on] type [mode-off].  In my experience, this was easier for the typists and secretaries but much more difficult for the part-timers (=academic faulty staff I also trying to introduce to 'word processing').  The shortcuts where there if you knew them, but there was also a menu if you forgot or wanted to see the options available.  By the way the shortcuts are still there just nobody bothers to remember them. :)

I've explained the above to some very clever 30ish tech savvy IT guys, who have told me that it was the first time they had heard this and explained why they had difficult 'controlling' Word.  Then again they are programmers not secretaries.

Back to Templot ... does this description hit the mark and help any??

The fundamental 'building block' of Templot is the track 'template'.  There are several types of templates; turnout, plain track, half diamonds, ... .  Multiple templates can be arranged together to make track arrangements from simple crossovers to complicated double slips or tandem turnouts.  There are also additional tools like the 'sketchpad' can be used to import a plan to guide track layout or add descriptive text, or the 'storage box' for organising collections of templates ready to be used multiple times.

All editing of track templates is done using the 'control template'.  To 'save' the 'control template' you need to 'store' it on the 'background'. Think of the 'background' as a pin board to which you have attached all your templates (and carefully arrange them). You can't modify any of the templates on the pin board without first selecting one and 'making it' the 'control template'.  This can be done with a range of options. 
[I'm not anywhere experienced enough to describe the differences between delete to, copy to, wipe, etc and when to use which?]


Once I had this firmly in my head things started to click and watching the videos made a lot more sense.  

The GUI style is definitely 'old school' and could be a refection on the tools Martin is using as well as history. Some softer colours (i.e. not saturated 8 bit colours) would improve the visual appeal but that is also not an easy task and there are options to change if you want.  Constructing and maintaining a 'modern' GUI is a LOT of work and largely cosmetic.  Sure, I'd love a customisable toolbox menu that I could put my favorite menu/tools on.  Then again Martin has provided so many 'hotkey' shortcuts that I just need to learn them if I don't want to use the menus.  I'm sure if we watched over Martin's shoulder it would be a blur of key strokes :-)

I hope this is of some assistance.

posted: 27 Feb 2018 15:55

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Mark.

I don't know if you have seen this page? I have posted the link a few times:

 http://templot.com/martweb/templot_history.htm

Written in 1999 when Templot was first released for others to use.

Although Templot never was "released" in the usual sense. I first showed the Windows version in development at the Gauge 0 Guild's annual exhibition at Telford in 1998, to see if there was enough interest to warrant spending more time on it.

After that I received occasional emails asking when it would be ready and if a pre-release version was available. At first I said no, but eventually gave in and starting supplying early versions (on floppy disk) to anyone who asked, from about August 1999. It never did get a formal launch with a press release, advertising, etc.

Looking through some old correspondence recently I came across this, written in July 2000:

"Strictly speaking, Templot has not yet been launched, and is still in development. I started off believing that it would one day be "finished”, and could then be announced to the world. It has slowly dawned on me that that day is never going to arrive, as there is always one more change or upgrade to make. Not to mention the major challenge still ahead of getting the slips and crossings done. And I’ve been working on it in one form or another for 20 years already!

In the meantime I started supplying it “as is" to anyone who asked, with the result that it has more or less launched itself. One day soon l shall bite the bullet and actually announce the fact in the magazines. One reason I have been holding back from this is that l am acutely aware of the lack of a proper tutorial sequence on the web site. I have been trying to get this done for over 12 months now, but every upgrade to the program can mean a re-write with new screenshots."


18 years on from that, will I ever get there? :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 10:40

from:

Bill Eaton
 
Ivybridge - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I found that the most difficult aspect of Templot when I got started was the concept of the control template and the background. Once I had got into the habit of clicking on "delete to the control" before doing anything with a template and always clicking on "store and background" before moving on then it all started to work for me. I have prepared some quite complex track plans recently but, even now, I don't have a clue as to the difference between "delete to", "wipe to" and "make" the control and I just cannot understand the concept of an unused template. Why would one need or want an unused template, what purpose might it serve? I still sometimes get duplicate templates underlying the ones I want to keep and I delete them, sometimes they go and sometimes they magically reappear again and have to be deleted again. Occasionally I go to the storage box and delete a background template from the file in there, I get the impression this is heresy but it works for me. I suggest that all of this needs to be covered in some detail in the instructions for beginners, as if I had grasped this a bit better when I was getting started then I would have found Templot a lot easier. Also, the instructions say you cannot save a template but only the data and that there is no file system as in Windows applications. This may be strictly true but the storage box looks to me a lot like the file system I use in Word and Excel, I save lots of "stuff" in the storage box, I copy over then rename files to make up a trackplan based on a previous one, and I delete those I will never want again. I'll finish by saying that Templot is a fabulous resource, we are all fortunate to have it and a big thank you to Martin for all his hard work

posted: 28 Feb 2018 12:54

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Bill Eaton wrote:
I have prepared some quite complex track plans recently but, even now, I don't have a clue as to the difference between "delete to", "wipe to" and "make" the control and I just cannot understand the concept of an unused template.
Hi Bill,

You have summed up what has been a constant problem to me over the years. The entire working concept of Templot is summed up there, and to me it is so simple and blindingly obvious that I can't understand why everyone else, yes everyone, finds it so difficult to grasp. I have tried dozens of times over the years to explain it, and always failed. Because it is a concept it can't be easily explained using screenshots or videos, it has to be done in words. And it seems I just don't have the right words.

But I do have to find them soon, because I can't progress the "Templot Explained" beginners guide on the web site without them.

I'll have another go later today and post it here. Instead of screenshots I will perhaps try drawing pictures. I'll leave big spaces between the words, so that others can fill in the ones I'm obviously missing out. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 14:17

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hmm,  how many times we have been here over the years!  

At risk of creating even more confusion, I wonder if it helps to suggest that it is not actually that "we" don't understand the [basics of] the concept, but rather that translating it into an effective method of working is non-obvious? And therein lies the route to all those unexpected duplicate templates.

Perhaps the trickiest bit for me was understanding that the control is "active" even when it does not "appear to be".  If for example, if I open Templot at the default start screen, and hit "Insert", then the control "disappears" because the only template has been "Stored" and is visible on the background.  If however, I hit F7 and drag, suddenly there are now two templates - one of which is obviously the control (because it is "lit up") and one is stored ('cos it is "dark"). Were I to hit Insert again, I would have "created" a second (identical) template without having knowingly done anything to do so.

However,  If instead, I now highlight the background template and hit "T", the second template disappears and the first one "becomes" the control.

This for me is the non-obvious bit - the concept seems to imply that you must "do something" to choose which of the "background" templates you want to work on. But actually you do not - ONE OF THEM already is the control - you just don't know which it is until you do something - at which point it will make itself known.

 For me, this illustrates how the concept works, and once I had my head round that, my working method evolved into "only" using the T and Insert keys, to "select" the control out of the background.

I also developed a habit, after "inserting", of always hitting F7 and dragging to create a "dummy control" so that I could see it "disappear" when I highlight, then hit T.
Of course, there are plenty of times when I NEED to create a duplicate, when I have to think about it, but working that way avoids creating unwanted piles of duplicates which always used to plague my Box!   (and yes, I do occasionally need to "undelete" a template!!"

Sorry if there seems to be a lot of "shouting" in the above - I'm not really shouting - just trying to help my own deafness :D

At risk of bringing high hell, fire and brimstone on my head, I would propose that the concept would be easier to grasp (and work with) if the normal state of play was that all templates were "stored" until such time as one of them were "selected" to be the control.  But I already know why that is not going to happen,  so given that the concept is as-it-is, my suggestion would be to explain the consequences of the various alternative Methods of Working.

Hope that helps!

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 28 Feb 2018 14:34 by JFS
posted: 28 Feb 2018 14:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
JFS wrote:
If for example, if I open Templot at the default start screen, and hit "Insert", then the control "disappears"
Hi Howard,

That's an option. There are several others. Try the reveal option, you may prefer it:

2_280944_020000000.png2_280944_020000000.png

Try storing a template after each of the options, see which one you prefer. There are some notes on the help menu item.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 14:53

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
... just to to amplify a point in my post above ...  Mark, above, drew an analogy with CAD programmes (dangerous Mark!) and to build on his analogy, we can compare the behaviour of Templot to that of a typical CAD programme.

So, to build on Marks analogy, If I open up a drawing in my CAD programme, (or even a Powerpoint file, etc etc), there are all my "objects" - lines, text boxes and so on - and, if I click on a command such as "Move", the programme asks me which object I want to move and I have to "select" an object (effectively to be the "control") before anything else will happen. 

By contrast, If I am working on a project in Templot, and all the Templates are Stored and I click on the "Move" command (ie hit F7), not only will one of the templates "Move" when I drag, but it it will create a copy of the original without me making any selection at all.

That, I suggest, is a "unique feature" of Templot, and lies at the root of why it is difficult to "get yer 'ed round it".

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 28 Feb 2018 14:58 by JFS
posted: 28 Feb 2018 15:03

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:


That's an option. There are several others. Try the reveal option, you may prefer it:


Indeed so Martin - but is it not the default option (or have I somewhere made it one of preferences?)

I confess I hesitate to change my method of working now - I am too easily confused these days!

Best wishes,

Howard

posted: 28 Feb 2018 15:24

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
JFS wrote:
Indeed so Martin - but is it not the default option (or have I somewhere made it one of preferences?)
Hi Howard,

No, the default option is this. And yes you have changed it in your preferences -- see the bit boxed in red:

 2_281019_230000000.png2_281019_230000000.png

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 15:37

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
JFS wrote:
By contrast, If I am working on a project in Templot, and all the Templates are Stored and I click on the "Move" command (ie hit F7), not only will one of the templates "Move" when I drag, but it it will create a copy of the original without me making any selection at all.

That, I suggest, is a "unique feature" of Templot, and lies at the root of why it is difficult to "get yer 'ed round it".
Hi Howard,

Well, I couldn't understand a word of that, and I suggest no-one else tries to. :(

As I replied to Bill, I'm going to have yet another go at explaining it from the beginning later today.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 15:41

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Well, that was a surprise - and it shows that now I automatically always start from my saved preferences, as when I just tried the default, things were very different including a tricky dialogue at the "quit"

I am also reminded just why I find the default way so confusing...

Would you prefer that I delete my post above as it could be misleading?

Best wishes,

Howard
Last edited on 28 Feb 2018 15:41 by JFS
posted: 28 Feb 2018 16:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
JFS wrote:
Well, that was a surprise - and it shows that now I automatically always start from my saved preferences
Hi Howard,

Which illustrates why I resisted for a long time providing any means to save preferences.

a) folks forget what they have changed, sometimes making things unnecessarily difficult for themselves, and b) then try to explain things to others, who not having made such a change are mystified.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 28 Feb 2018 16:48

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:

Which illustrates why I resisted for a long time providing any means to save preferences.

Well, I for one am very glad that you gave in to the pressure - going back to the default method was pretty horrible - and I am very pleased that I do not have to change to "my" way every time!

Re-trying myself of the default behaviour, reminds me why it originally confused me - when the Control Template "hides" your background template by sitting exactly over it, it is even easier to forget you have made a duplicate. Of course the dialogue box helps - at least to the extent that the reader understands it.

And good luck with your task - we feel your pain Martin!

Best wishes,

Howard



posted: 28 Feb 2018 19:33

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
JFS wrote:
If for example, if I open Templot at the default start screen, and hit "Insert", then the control "disappears"
Hi Howard,

That's an option. There are several others. Try the reveal option, you may prefer it:

2_280944_020000000.png2_280944_020000000.png

Try storing a template after each of the options, see which one you prefer. There are some notes on the help menu item.

cheers,

Martin.
Martin,
I think the reveal option is best and is what I use. With this you can at least see that something has happened as a result of pressing the INSERT key. Some of the other options would probably leave a new user ( and some older ones ) wondering if anything had actually happened.

Saved preferences are a godsend as far as I am concerned provided you realise that future sessions may start up with odd effects. I can understand why you resisted implementing it but you can't back off now :)

Rob


Rob


posted: 28 Feb 2018 20:30

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
There are over 2000 of us on here and I expect that there are probably nearly as many different ways of reaching the same result. Unless starting from scratch I normally go to 'trackpad' and hide the control template, until I get going.

Cheers

Phil.
Last edited on 28 Feb 2018 20:31 by Phil O
posted: 2 Mar 2018 09:18

from:

Mark Barry
 
Australia

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

To me it reads well and is capturing a number of things that have been mentioned in the discussion. Most of which you already knew anyway based on the long experience of helping people for a long long time. 

Personally I like the history - it deserves to be told.  Some of us are relative youngens, and have missed a lot of the long journey.  It also helps to see why some things developed the way they did given the context at the time.  That helps to remind the real youngens that many ideas are not actually new ones, others have often been there before - we just didn't have the means to implement them :D.

Looking forward to the next installment.

Mark

posted: 2 Mar 2018 20:44

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Thanks Mark.

I've now added some more to this:

 http://templot.com/companion/basic_working_methods.php

I'm going to wait for some feedback before deciding what to do with it. At present it is far too long and temporarily inserted as section 99 of Templot In Full. It needs breaking into smaller sections before continuing, and some indexing.

I have written the stuff there several times over the years. Is it now intelligible? What needs changing or expanding? Or is it the same failure to get things across as before?

It's an attempt to explain only the working of the storage box and background templates, not all the adjustments to the control template, radii, crossing angles, pegs, timbering and the like. That will be on other pages.

p.s. note in passing that I didn't create any duplicate templates. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 2 Mar 2018 20:57

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Bill Eaton wrote:
I have prepared some quite complex track plans recently but, even now, I don't have a clue as to the difference between "delete to", "wipe to" and "make" the control and I just cannot understand the concept of an unused template. Why would one need or want an unused template, what purpose might it serve?
Hi Bill,

I hope I have answered some of this at:

 http://templot.com/companion/basic_working_methods.php

The explanation of unused templates is towards the end.

There will be more stuff there soon.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 3 Mar 2018 09:00

from:

Dave Searle
 
Epsom - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin,
This is very helpful. 

When I first started with Templot (sporadically, many years ago, without a particular plan in mind) I found the terminology such as "delete to control" confusing, and tended to forget how to use it between sessions.  This is explaining the context very well.

I am now using Templot in earnest for a particular project and this discription in one place is making it much clearer.  Along with the new make options for slips and tandems, I am making good progress.

Many thanks. 

Cheers, 

Dave 
Last edited on 3 Mar 2018 09:01 by Dave Searle
posted: 3 Mar 2018 10:13

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin

I think that what you have produced is very much along the right lines and I have learnt a couple of things that I didn't know, so this old dog has learnt some new tricks.

Thanks

Phil

posted: 3 Mar 2018 11:21

from:

Charles Orr
 
Leicester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,
I've read through that a couple of times now and it does read well.

It's also clarified a couple of things  for me .  :)

You are right though in so far as it does need breaking up  into smaller sections

and some sub-titles/section titles adding.

Persevere, I think you are nearly there.  :D


Regards

Charles





posted: 4 Mar 2018 13:50

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
The basics piece is fine but as you say needs to be broken up , the history piece is rather a nice to have , but not essential , the elaboration of background and control is a key piece

My own general comments are well known , my biggest issues like many remains the creation of duplicates ( it would be useful if the numbering scheme had suffixs to easily see duplicate. ) I tend to create duplicate because I forget the sequence of background to control actions.

I do think more consideration should be given to sequences that produce duplicates , templot has a habit of doing “ clever “things without telling you. I suspect the duplicates issue is the single most confusing thing for beginners, this is complicated by the fact that templot offers multiple ways to do the same thing , which makes it harder for beginners.

So in my case , I understand all the “ theory” behind templot , still doesn’t mean I don’t produce duplicates simply because I forget some sequences in templot.

The other thing that would be useful is preferences were saved to the box , file , it can be very confusing remembering what preferences were activated when you return to templot after a break. I now have to write down a paper list.


As a final general comment on basics.php , it’s rather wordy , quite a lot of text has to be read to extract information. 
Dave
Last edited on 4 Mar 2018 14:02 by madscientist
posted: 4 Mar 2018 14:12

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
my biggest issues like many remains the creation of duplicates
Hi Dave,

I've been thinking about that. I'm working on something right now.

I think it would be helpful if the most recently created background template was marked in some way. Preferably visible through the control template. It would then be more obvious that the background template exists, and folks would be less likely to store another one. I'm currently working on a hatched background behind the most recent background template. It would appear immediately when doing a store, and be more obvious that something has happened.

Experienced users get into the habit of dabbing HOME before storing a template to see if it has already been done, but beginners don't acquire such tricks straight off.

What has dawned on me is that Templot is a young person's program. You need to be able to go off and make a coffee, or answer a phone call, without forgetting what you did 10 minutes ago. :)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 4 Mar 2018 19:28

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides


What has dawned on me is that Templot is a young person's program. You need to be able to go off and make a coffee, or answer a phone call, without forgetting what you did 10 minutes ago


Very true very true , there was a time I could remember by heart the octal boot programne for a DEC PDP 11/66 and flip the switches to load the boot program.

These days I spend most of my time trying to remember where I left my glasses

posted: 5 Mar 2018 10:54

from:

Mark Barry
 
Australia

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

I have quite a few suggestions as I worked through the page, feel free to ignore :).  Hopefully these are in order - your words are in italics.

As always, really appreciate your effort - I learnt heaps reading through this.  I did wonder if there was room at the top to add a little more of a description of the 'task', maybe with reference to a rough sketch of the 'plan' your about to construct.  The downside of that is not showing the 'organic' way that things can evolve as you get ideas - it is usually way easier to do things when you already know where your going to end up, but not always as much fun :D.

Mark
Looking in the storage box I can see that my track plan so far consists of just this one stored template:
Add the menu and shortcut, [program > open storage box] or Ctrl-B - sadly it took me a while to find it!
...currently being displayed on the trackpad. (The button is also red, but note this is not an error or warning, it simply means the stored template is a background template.)
The only 'red' button is 'wipe from background' - is that the one you are referring too?  I'm not sure what you are attempting to point out with the comment.  After reading further, I see that the colour of the template is indicative of its status, red for background and blue for 'unused'.
Notice in all these screenshots that the PHASE 1 control template is never part of the PHASE 2 track plan, it exists only in front of it on the screen as the current output from the template generator. It can only become part of the track plan if I do a [ store & background], or Templot does it for me as part of a make function.
Would 'it is displayed' rather than 'it exists' better describe the situation in terms of what you see?  I would also suggest that the last sentence begin with 'The control template' instead of 'It' - this would be a little easier for non-native English speakers and removes any doubt as to what you are referring to.
But the first turnout has been removed and replaced with the plain track template PR003 (Plain track Right hand).
I'm concerned with the phrase 'removed and replaced'. This suggests there is some link between these two templates, but I think you are really referring to two operations, 1. removing the first template and 2. saving the plain track template. 
And I can now do some work on the plain track in the control template. I want to insert a turnout in it and create a siding. So that's another make tool, [ make branch track], and I now have 4 background templates in my track plan:
I think you skipped a step or two.  Won't you need to first [template > insert a turnout in plain track] and ensure that it is the correct hand and position.  Then follow this with the [ make branch track]
...So clicking on the turnout, I do [ make the control] again to swap it back into the control template:
As this is a 'tutorial', I'd suggest repeating the lesson again to hopefully help it stick, ie ... I do [ make the control] which instructs Templot to 1. [store & background] the plain branch track template, 2. remove turnout template TR005 from the storage box, and 3. copy TR005's settings to the control template ready for editing/modifying.
Unfortunately that has also removed the wing rail from the V-crossing. To get it back, I need to split this turnout into 2 partial templates, and store each one separately.
It would be nice to have a link here to a diagram with the various rails labeled - yes I know if you've gotten this far you should already have the knowledge - but links are cheap :)

I also think you need a little more explanation up front on what it is you are about to do - effectively make two copies of the one template (TR005) so that you can apply different 'display' setting to each part in order to achieve your 'special decommissioned turnout'.
So after remembering to move the peg back to the CTRL-0 position (click the peg position indicator), I have shortened this turnout (F4 mouse action) to the wing-rail front rail joint:
This is the first mention of the 'peg' - which you can't actually see in the accompanying image but you can the 'notch' - that could be confusing.  Maybe a link to the 'peg' explanation page and a zoomed out view would help.  I appreciate the current image is zoomed in so that the tips of the 'check rails' are just visible.
Now I need to undo the shortening of the control template, and the removal of the crossing rail, until it is back to how it was before I did those things. The easy way to do that is to click the blue left arrow a few times [ undo changes], or SHIFT+CTRL+ROLL the mouse wheel back, until you find the control template which you are looking for. If you don't feel happy relying on the 80-slot rollback register, you could be ultra-cautious and park a copy of the control template in the [ do > parking bay] before making those changes. Or you could use the the [ do > omit rails and joint marks...] function again to restore the missing rail.
I found this description a little difficult to grasp what and why you were explaining.  I think you've chosen this 'method' as a way of introducing the 'undo' functionality as well as a chance to mention the 'parking bay'.  I guess there are lots of ways to do this depending on how you think about the task.  To me, I would make two copies of TR005, modify one part then modify the second.

posted: 5 Mar 2018 11:00

from:

Mark Barry
 
Australia

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrot

Very true very true , there was a time I could remember by heart the octal boot programne for a DEC PDP 11/66 and flip the switches to load the boot program.

These days I spend most of my time trying to remember where I left my glasses
I learnt BASIC on a DEC PDP 11/70 - never saw the actual machine as we had DEC WRITER and VDU terminals connected via 300baud modems!  Nobody liked using the VDU's as you couldn't gather up the paper at the end of the session and take it away with you to work on :D.  The speed wasn't really an issue either - we could type very fast :(

posted: 5 Mar 2018 11:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Mark,

Many thanks for that. I will make some of the changes to the wording that you suggest.

However, I think you have misunderstood the purpose of that page. It is not intended to be a beginners guide, explaining pegs and inserting turnouts, where to find the storage box, etc. All that is, or will be, in the Templot Explained section:

 http://templot.com/companion/0_for_beginners.php

The page we are discussing is for users who have got beyond that stage and are actually using Templot. It is a suggested way of working to avoid creating duplicate templates and other problems which often crop up, and to explain why Templot is the way it is for those who keep suggesting it should be different.

Clearly I didn't explain that properly, either. Sorry.

It was prompted by this post from Bill, and is primarily a reply to that:

 topic 3197 - message 24017

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Mar 2018 19:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin Wynne wrote:
I think it would be helpful if the most recently created background template was marked in some way. Preferably visible through the control template. It would then be more obvious that the background template exists, and folks would be less likely to store another one.
The hatched background idea didn't work out very well. The Windows GDI is fickle about displaying bitmap and pattern fills, they vanish at some zoom settings. And the appearance wasn't very appealing.

But this looks promising:

The most recently stored background template is drawn with the timbering in bold:

2_051353_540000000.png2_051353_540000000.png

I've been trying this and it is very handy to have your work progress highlighted in this way on the trackpad. You can easily see where you have got to in the track plan. The difference is quite visible at all zoom levels.

But the main reason for it is to provide a very obvious visual change when the control template is stored:

2_051357_050000000.png2_051357_050000000.png

To me the visual effect is very clearly that the control template is now in front of another template. So hopefully anyone seeing this is unlikely to store it again.

And it is not too much of a distraction when working zoomed in over it to align rails:

2_051400_030000000.png2_051400_030000000.png

Just to be clear, only one background template is displayed this way, the most recently stored* one. All the others are displayed normally. And so will this one be, when the next one is stored.

This is on the trackpad screen only, there is no effect on printing or exports.

I'm quite pleased with this idea and minded to include it in the next program update. I will provide a switch to turn it off. Comments welcome.

Of course, it means almost every Templot screenshot and video ever made will be out of date, including the ones I just made at:

 http://templot.com/companion/basics.php

:(

*strictly speaking, it is the one at or nearest the bottom of the list in the storage box. If you sort or re-arrange the order in the box, that won't necessarily be the most recent one. But if you have got that far in Templot, you know what you are doing.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 5 Mar 2018 19:28

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin,

I think that is an excellent idea and will help me to remember whether I have stored a template or not.

Phil

posted: 5 Mar 2018 20:41

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Just bought a new Golf and am looking at the manual. Believe me, compared to this Templot is a doddle!

The previous, not too different, Golf had a pretty good manual. This one connecting what can be done with how you actually do it isn't really apparent :(

posted: 5 Mar 2018 22:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I have added the setting for this to the background detail dialog:

2_051711_130000000.png2_051711_130000000.png

(All these settings are included in your saved program preferences.)

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2018 08:37

from:

Mark Barry
 
Australia

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Martin

No need to aplogise, I think I got carried away with the 'tutorial' thoughts.  Whilst you may not intend it that way, others may :?

I like the 'bold' timbers look as well.

Martin

posted: 6 Mar 2018 08:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Mark Barry wrote:
Whilst you may not intend it that way, others may :?.
Hi Mark,

Bear in mind that it's not finished yet. That's why it is section 99. I think when it is split into pages and indexed, and the Templot Explained section has got a bit further, everything will be clearer.

It was in effect a reply to Bill on here, but more than I could sensibly put in a post.

For those coming fresh to this topic, the page we are talking about is:

 http://templot.com/companion/basics.php

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2018 09:19

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Nigel Brown wrote:
Just bought a new Golf and am looking at the manual. Believe me, compared to this Templot is a doddle!

The previous, not too different, Golf had a pretty good manual. This one connecting what can be done with how you actually do it isn't really apparent :(
When I got my new car the manual was on CD. I tried to read it in the comfort of my office, but no it does not work on a PC. You have to load it in the car. There is a paper manual, but all the useful bits say "read the CD". So I sat in my car one night, but could not see where to insert the CD. It doesn't even tell you this in the paper manual!!!

posted: 6 Mar 2018 09:38

from:

madscientist
 
 

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Brilliant , “the end of the duplicate monster is near “
Will it work for all “ make “ cases 

Might it not be useful to make the “bold “ outline a different color, a sea of green on a track plan can make it hard to see the duplicate 
Last edited on 6 Mar 2018 10:07 by madscientist
posted: 6 Mar 2018 11:34

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
madscientist wrote:
Brilliant , “the end of the duplicate monster is near “
Will it work for all “make“ cases 

Might it not be useful to make the “bold “ outline a different color
Hi Dave,

Changing the colour would mean finding a new colour for each colour scheme, and adding a means to set it. More work. :(

It's quite obvious on the screen which one is in bold. Here it is in the "bright night" scheme:

2_060626_200000000.png2_060626_200000000.png

Yes, it works in all cases. It is simply the most recently created background template, however you create it.

a sea of green on a track plan can make it hard to see the duplicate
I think you have misunderstood. It is not showing duplicate templates, simply the last one you created. It is up to you not to duplicate it.

Notice on this page:

 http://templot.com/companion/basics.php

that I didn't create any duplicates.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2018 15:39

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
I have added some more to:

 http://templot.com/companion/basics.php

to introduce delete to the control.

I think I should now leave it there and get it split up and indexed. Then I can get back to the Templot Explained section, including a video tutorial showing a small track plan being created. The above was not intended to be that, it just happened that way as a means to show the comings and goings in the storage box.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 12 Mar 2018 00:52

from:

Godfrey Earnshaw
 
Crawley - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Hi Martin

I give in. I have searched and searched and I cannot find the "background detail" dialog above.

Help please.

Godders

posted: 12 Mar 2018 01:04

from:

Rob Manchester
 
Manchester - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Godders,

Look in Trackpad->Trackpad Background Options->Trackpad Background Templates Detail

Rob


posted: 12 Mar 2018 01:17

from:

Godfrey Earnshaw
 
Crawley - United Kingdom

click the date to link to this post
click member name to view archived images
view images in gallery view images as slides
Rob,

Thank you so much

Godders



Templot Club > Forums > Templot talk > Templot Companion - work in progress
about Templot Club

Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.
The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason. Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2020  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems