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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > Clarification sought on O-SF gauge please
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                                       Clarification sought on O-SF gauge please
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 21:00
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from:
David Gregory
Skipton, United Kingdom

 

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Greetings from Sweden

I've been building a track plan in Templot (v 2.19.b) using the preset gauge "O-SF" - in summary, 31.2mm gauge with 1.25mm flangeways.

Today, I have seen a copy of the updated Gauge O Guild standards - dated September 2017 - that state the O-SF gauge is 31.25mm gauge (with 1.25mm flangeways).  Please see attached PDF.

Will the real O-SF standard please step forward?

I mean, before I get some gauges purchased (made-up), can someone please advise which is the "correct" O-SF gauge or is the apparent disparity just an indication that O-SF has somehow evolved from 31.2 to 31.25 over time?

Thanks in advance

David



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Attachment: Guild Track & Wheelset Standards Sept 2017.pdf (Downloaded 19 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 21:55
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Gregory wrote:
Will the real O-SF standard please step forward?

I mean, before I get some gauges purchased (made-up), can someone please advise which is the "correct" O-SF gauge or is the apparent disparity just an indication that O-SF has somehow evolved from 31.2 to 31.25 over time?
Hi David,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

It is 20 years since I first included the 0-MF and 0-SF standards in Templot (and until recently also the flawed 0-XF standard).

At the time some members of the Gauge 0 Guild were hostile to any diversion from the long-established GOG-F (0-F) standard, and it has taken the Guild all this time to finally update their technical data to reflect what a great many modellers have been doing in practice for years.

The original standards were both based on a 30.0mm check gauge (because both are running the same wheels):

0-MF   31.5mm track gauge, 1.5mm flangeway

0-SF   31.2mm track gauge, 1.2mm flangeway

The general experience was that such 0-SF worked well for Slaters and other current "industry-standard" wheels set to 29.2mm back-to-back, but was just a bit too fine for some older cast "Fine Standard" wheels set to 29.0mm back-to-back (of which there are a great many still in use).

Over time 0-SF was eased a fraction to 31.25mm track gauge with 1.25mm flangeways to accommodate such wheels, and the Guild appears to have now adopted this.

In Templot I increased the flangeway but not the gauge, because doing that would have upset some existing track plan files by fractionally lengthening the turnouts.

But this is all history. Nowadays most folks use 0-MF instead, and get good running with a wide variety of existing wheels without needing to fuss too much about exact back-to-back settings. 0-MF roller track gauges are available from Debs of this parish (currently unwell), and as fold-up etched gauges from Roxey Mouldings.

That being so, for those who want something finer I'm minded to revert Templot to the original setting:

  0-SF   31.2mm track gauge, 1.2mm* flangeway

so that the check gauge is again the correct 30.0mm dimension.

The track gauge is always a minimum dimension, so the Guild version at 31.25mm with 30.0mm check gauge is compatible, and simply represents a fractional gauge widening for curves.

*will be in the next program update 221a shortly. Thanks for the nudge.

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 22:10
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from:
David Gregory
Skipton, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Thanks for the welcome, quick reply and all that great information - explains everything. Apologies if I've resurrected something that was better left to moulder ...

If I've already built my plan to the existing Templot O-SF standard, would I have a problem when the program is next updated (and the standard is reverted to 1.2mm flangeway)?

Second question if I may: I've just created a Templot custom gauge 0-SF(R), using the revised standards (31.25/1.25) - very easy to do.

However, if I take an existing template (wipe to control), place peg on fine point, and just change to this custom gauge, the geometry also changes (straight to curved) and the template 'jumps' to another part of the trackpad (overall dimensions, turnout angle, etc. remain unchanged).

I was hoping I could use this technique to see the impact/possibility of changing gauge but maybe not. I see the same 'jump/bend' effect even if I choose another preset gauge like O-MF. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks again

David
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4th message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 22:33
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi David,

Changing the gauge that way mints a new template, as you found.

Instead:

1. for the control template, gauge > modify current settings > menu item, as a quick way to see the effect of changes.

or

2. on the gauge/scale dialog use the convert group button, see:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3086&forum_id=3#p22111

cheers,

Martin.


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5th message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 22:34
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from:
David Gregory
Skipton, United Kingdom

 

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Wonderful - thanks Martin!
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6th message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 22:51
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote: The general experience was that such 0-SF was fine for Slaters and other current "industry-standard" wheels set to 29.2mm back-to-back, but just a bit too fine for some older cast "Fine Standard" wheels set to 29.0mm back-to-back (of which there are a great many still in use).

Martin,

Hijacking David's thread I just checked some of my RTR O gauge stock from the likes of Heljan and Dapol ( Terrier, Jinty, Pannier and 05/08 diesels ). The back-to-back measurements on these locos range from 28.7 to 29.1mm which would be an issue on O-SF track but should be fine on O-MF. The wheels also appear to be more 'rounded' in the area where the flange meets the tyre of the wheel ( bigger root radius if that is the correct description ? ) Glad I stuck with the wider flangeways  :)

Rob


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7th message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 23:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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p.s. David,

You will see that for turnouts with regular V-crossings, changing the flangeway gap changes the turnout length a fraction.

For turnouts with curviform or generic V-crossings, it doesn't.

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 1 Jun 2018 23:08
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:The back-to-back measurements on these locos range from 28.7 to 29.1mm which would be an issue on O-SF track but should be fine on O-MF.Hi Rob,

Yes, that's why I was a bit surprised to see the Guild suggesting that 0-SF is ok for current wheels.

Generally most folks have gone for 0-MF for the very reason you say.

0-SF generally requires sticking to Slaters wheels or similar, and modifying some of the recent RTR models.

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 2 Jun 2018 06:51
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
0-SF generally requires sticking to Slaters wheels or similar, and modifying some of the recent RTR models.

I think I remember,  some years ago,  that Brian Lewis (then of C&L) advocated using Scale7 wheels with 0-SF.

Jim.

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10th message | this message only posted: 2 Jun 2018 08:11
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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Actually Jim, I think you might find it have been Jim Snowden since as far as I know he first proposed the standards. Brian built his layout to 0-XF, not for the faint hearted as it's basically S7 but 31.0mm gauge. Slaters should be OK with either but gauge widening might be necessary especially wih 0-XF

I don't think Brian ever built anything 0SF. There might be something in one of Jims MRJ articles.

Generally, I think most consider 0-MF the most practical of all. Runs most stuff, without the bumps.

Now I'm confused! I've just re-read the MRJ article and it extols the benefits of 0XF! Perhaps Jim re-thought it in the Gazette.

Jim Guthrie wrote: Martin Wynne wrote:
0-SF generally requires sticking to Slaters wheels or similar, and modifying some of the recent RTR models.

I think I remember,  some years ago,  that Brian Lewis (then of C&L) advocated using Scale7 wheels with 0-SF.

Jim.


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11th message | this message only posted: 2 Jun 2018 11:02
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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I don't think we shall gain much by going back over the tangled history.

It wasn't helped when Brian Lewis (then of C&L) proposed his own 31.0mm gauge version of S7, and supplied gauges for it (0-XF - eXtreme Fine).

Talking of the names, 0-MF was originally Modified Fine and 0-SF was Special Fine.

I see the Guild in its latest standards has renamed them Medium Fine and Super Fine.

"Medium Fine" doesn't make sense, suggesting that it sits somewhere between the old Coarse and Fine standards, which is not the case.

The full range in order is  0-C , 0-F , 0-MF , 0-SF.

Plus S7.

0-C and 0-F are called GOG-C and GOG-F in Templot to clarify their "ownership" by the Gauge 0 Guild in contradistinction to some of the other standards such as those from NMRA, AMRA and NEM.

For a long time there was a cohort within the Guild which resisted any move away from their cherished GOG-F standard, despite the fact that Slaters introduction of their narrower plastic-centred wheels had clearly rendered it obsolete.

What did I say about not going back over history? :)

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 2 Jun 2018 12:29
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from:
David Gregory
Skipton, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Thanks for the further insights.

I must say as a newcomer to the "senior scale", coming from P4, at first I found the array of "standards" slightly bewildering.

What irks me most is not the understandable compromises but:
  • apparently a single wheel manufacturer has had so much influence (without even publishing a full specification that I can find)
  • the misappropriation of the label "Fine" in relation to the standards.

I can suggest O-F could stand for "Oh, F..." and leave the rest to your imaginations.

Best regards

David
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13th message | this message only posted: 2 Jun 2018 12:43
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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David Gregory wrote:
What irks me most is not the understandable compromises but:
  • apparently a single wheel manufacturer has had so much influence (without even publishing a full specification that I can find)
Hi David,

Perhaps 0-SF means "Slaters Fine"? :)

Martin.

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Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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There are basically 2 steam loco wheel manufacturers (there are more but hard to come by) Slaters and Walsall.

Finney 7 may be encouraging the emergence of a replacement for AGH wheels we shall hope and see. Most people currently use Slaters. RTR is another kettle of fish altogether or should that be a curates egg?
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi,
I will bet the test tracks at O gauge shows aren't set up for O-SF as there is a lot of older kit-built items still around with more chunky wheels. Mind you there isn't much P&C work on the average test track :D

I can't remember the sequence of events but was the Slaters wheel range for non-Slaters kits started as a spin off from the need to produce wheels for their own Midland loco kits ? You still see some Slaters wheels in rummage boxes at shows in what I assume is the original grey poly bag/header card packaging.

Rob


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from:
Stephen Freeman
Sandbach, United Kingdom



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Don 't remember those though I did think the early ones were press-fit rather than the present system.
I cannot imagine many have used 0XF, I do have a set of gauges from C&,L only used once by special request.
Rob Manchester wrote: Hi,
I will bet the test tracks at O gauge shows aren't set up for O-SF as there is a lot of older kit-built items still around with more chunky wheels. Mind you there isn't much P&C work on the average test track :D

I can't remember the sequence of events but was the Slaters wheel range for non-Slaters kits started as a spin off from the need to produce wheels for their own Midland loco kits ? You still see some Slaters wheels in rummage boxes at shows in what I assume is the original grey poly bag/header card packaging.

Rob



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