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1st message | this message only posted: 8 Jun 2018 22:44
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Here we are, the first ever release of open-source Templot.

See: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3283&forum_id=26

cheers,

Martin.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 8 Jun 2018 22:53
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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And here is the GPL Licence showing what you can and can't do with these files.

Essentially what it means is that you can do whatever you wish with the code for your own private use.

But if you wish to distribute it to others in any form, you must release your modified version under the same GPL licence terms.

So it could be incorporated into other GPL open-source programs, but not into closed-source commercial programs.

Text version attached below, or here's a link:

  https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 9 Jun 2018 12:42
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Martin,
Many thanks for releasing a 'stand alone' Templot executable. It means I can stop worrying about your local bus timetables :D. Seriously though, we have enough troubles in the model railway arena with rising prices, defunct suppliers and closed model shops but at least now the future for Templot users is secure for a decent while.

I know I keep going on about this ( sorry ) but Saved Preferences are very useful to me and hopefully others. I see the warning regarding the limited range in OpenTemplot but it will be nice at some stage to know what is able to be included in the settings file ( and what is in it ).

Rob


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4th message | this message only posted: 9 Jun 2018 13:28
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote:I know I keep going on about this ( sorry ) but Saved Preferences are very useful to me and hopefully others. I see the warning regarding the limited range in OpenTemplot but it will be nice at some stage to know what is able to be included in the settings file ( and what is in it ).Thanks  Rob.

I haven't noticed you going on about it? :?

You can see what is currently included by looking in the prefs_unit.pas file, starting at this line:

procedure save_prefs(prefs_file_str:string; confirm_it:boolean);

which is at about line 290.

Anything else can be added there -- what did you want?

Bear in mind that only program stuff can go in there -- you can't add track design details such as gauge, scale, sleeper length, etc. That's all template-specific and goes in the .box/.otbox file.

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 9 Jun 2018 15:06
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Thanks Martin,

Well documented coding I must say :).Good the way you noted on which release each code step was added. I will let you know if I come onto any settings that would be nice to have added on.

Rob


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6th message | this message only posted: 9 Jun 2018 17:03
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Well documented coding I must say :).Thanks Rob.

As a hobby programmer I'm expecting plenty of egg on face when the professionals get to see it. No doubt Templot will become a textbook example of how not to write a computer program. :)

A lot of the problem is that so much of it is so old. There never was any original plan or overall structure. It's the proverbial Meccano tea trolley which turned into a combine harvester.

But the saving grace is that for the most part it works. Now that it's published, maybe the professionals can help fix the bits which don't.

Porting from Delphi5 (itself ancient) into Lazarus made quite a lot of work, not least because I'm not very familiar with Lazarus. The lack of the 80-bit extended type jumped out and bit me unexpectedly.

Shortly I will post some instructions on how folks can get started.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 9 Jun 2018 20:54
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from:
John McAleely
United Kingdom

 

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I hope people who've seen this on another forum won't object to the duplicate post.
I thought it would be a fun exercise to download and compile the OpenTemplot code. The screenshot below:



has a highlight around the new text I added, so I could see that the locally compiled version of OpenTemplot was running. It seemed to work!
Thank you Martin for this generous step!

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8th message | this message only posted: 10 Jun 2018 11:03
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi John,

Thanks for posting the screenshot. I was relieved to see it, because it confirms that I included all the necessary files in the zip. :)

And hopefully none of the ones which shouldn't be there, because they contain stuff which I don't have the rights to publish.

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 10 Jun 2018 11:47
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from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:As a hobby programmer I'm expecting plenty of egg on face when the professionals get to see it. No doubt Templot will become a textbook example of how not to write a computer program. :)
modesty


noun
noun: modesty; plural noun: modesties
1. the quality or state of being unassuming in the estimation of one's abilities.
"with typical modesty he insisted that he was not the genius that others implied"

synonyms:self-effacement, humility, lack of vanity, lack of pretension, unpretentiousness; shyness, bashfulness, self-consciousness, reserve, reticence, timidity, meekness
"Martin's innate modesty cloaks many talents"



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10th message | this message only posted: 10 Jun 2018 14:38
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Jim Guthrie
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Martin,

Many thanks for making your source files available. I've been looking for an excuse to do some programming again and this might give me a reason to do so. However, I've got six versions of Delphi gathered over the years (Delphi 1, 3, 7, Turbo, Rad Studio 2010 and Rad Studio 10.1) so my first job will be to take your Lazarus project and change it back to Delphi, and I might be gone some time. :)

The first choice will be which Delphi to use. I'm tempted to try the latest (for me) 10.1 Berlin, but Delphi 7 might be safer being closer to your Delphi 5.

Jim.
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11th message | this message only posted: 10 Jun 2018 15:01
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote:The first choice will be which Delphi to use. I'm tempted to try the latest (for me) 10.1 Berlin, but Delphi 7 might be safer being closer to your Delphi 5.Hi Jim,

Don't go later than Delphi 7. Later versions of Delphi have changed to using 2-byte Unicode characters in strings. Templot uses single-byte ASCII character strings. Converting everything would be non-trivial -- in some places strings are treated as byte-arrays.

But why not give Lazarus a try? It has some nice features in the editor. And uses single-byte UTF-8 Unicode strings. But it's quite a bit slower to compile and link than Delphi5, and the .exe is huge if you don't explicitly deselect the debug options.

If you stick to early Delphi, you will need the original version of David Baldwin's HtmlViewer (now free):

 http://pbear.com/htmlviewers.html

cheers,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 08:04
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:Don't go later than Delphi 7. Later versions of Delphi have changed to using 2-byte Unicode characters in strings. Templot uses single-byte ASCII character strings. Converting everything would be non-trivial -- in some places strings are treated as byte-arrays.But why not give Lazarus a try? It has some nice features in the editor. And uses single-byte UTF-8 Unicode strings. But it's quite a bit slower to compile and link than Delphi5, and the .exe is huge if you don't explicitly deselect the debug options.

If you stick to early Delphi, you will need the original version of David Baldwin's HtmlViewer (now free):

 http://pbear.com/htmlviewers.html
Martin,

I had forgotten about the change to two byte characters. I used to follow the Delphi User support groups on the Usenet and I now remember all the discussions about backwards incompatibility with older compilers at the time of the change. I've done a bit of digging and I think that Turbo Delphi might be OK,  but Delphi 7 would certainly be OK for one byte characters as you suggest. It still seems to work on my 64 bit Win 10 setup and cross fingers it keeps going. I've just had to take remedial action after the last Win10 update when another older 32 bit program stopped working.

I'll resist the temptation to take the easy way out with Lazarus at the moment but might have to give in if things get too messy. :D

Thanks for the pointer to the Delphi compatible HTMLviewer. That could have been a problem working round the lack of that. I do remember using a bought in component with the early versions of Delphi which did more advanced text editing and manipulation, as well as some maths functions, which was then taken off the market and unsupported. I had to re-write all the code to replace the functions I used and I think that was why I got Delphi 7 which had acquired sufficient built in functions.

Jim.

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13th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 11:52
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Jim,

I have also had problems running some older programs on Windows10. What I have found is that invariably it is the installer which won't run, the actual program works fine. The trick is to install it on an old system running Windows7 or even XP, and then copy across all the installation folders and registry entries. I did that with PaintShopPro for example, and it actually runs better now on Windows10 than it did before. Despite being old, it is my preferred graphics editor.

If you use the Lazarus code in Delphi, you are going to run into the same file compatibility problems which bit me. Your program will save and reload its own files, but they won't be compatible with either .box files from Templot2, or .otbox files from OpenTemplot/Lazarus, or .otbox files created by the conversion function which will be in the next Templot2 update.

The problem is the 80-bit extended floating-point format. Which is the default float type in early Delphi, but is supported only in Win32 on Intel x86-compatible processors. It is not supported on other platforms, including Win64, where extended means the same as double (64-bit). Lazarus is intended for cross-platform use, so the same applies there.

Templot uses the extended type throughout, apart from a few odd cases. And the file format is binary. Consequently there is no way the files created by the two versions can be compatible. I have had to write some conversion functions to create .otbox compatible file format in Delphi. In the process I took the opportunity to tidy up the format by removing some old stuff applicable only to Templot pre version 0.48.

What this boils down to is that if you create a Delphi version from the published OpenTemplot code, and want to load your existing .box files into it, you will need some more code from me to allow the conversion. I will open-source that and post it in due course. But I need to get the Templot2 update done first. :)

p.s. You should find the form files are compatible if you change the .lfm extensions to .dfm. If not I could post the original .dfm files. In every unit you will need to remove the {$MODE Delphi} directive.

cheers,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 13:59
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from:
Jim Guthrie
United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Hi Jim,

I have also had problems running some older programs on Windows10. What I have found is that invariably it is the installer which won't run, the actual program works fine. The trick is to install it on an old system running Windows7 or even XP, and then copy across all the installation folders and registry entries. I did that with PaintShopPro for example, and it actually runs better now on Windows10 than it did before. Despite being old, it is my preferred graphics editor.
Martin,

The problem was more than that.   The program is Mach3 (10+ years old) which I use to control my CNC mill.  To run the mill,  I have a dedicated old Dell PC running 32 bit XP and a parallel port to connect to the mill's interface board.  This PC goes nowhere near the Internet. :D.  But I run a copy of Mach3 on my big PC on which I do all my CAD work.  That runs Win10 64 bit.   I use the Mach3 to simulate any GCode I've written to make sure that everything is OK before putting it near the mill so I don't need a parallel port.  

On the last Win 10 update a week or so ago,  Mach3 stopped working on this PC.  I tried all the usual compatibility get outs but with no luck.  Then after a bit of digging around on Google,  I found that the problem had been noted and somebody had tracked the problem down to one of the DLLs associated with Mach3 and had re-written one of the versions of the software and the DLL to get over the problem - all with the blessing of Artsoft,  the owners of Mach3.   So it was just a case of downloading this modified version and setting it up again - which was a long fiddle since there were a lot of configurations to set up which I had forgotten about.

If you use the Lazarus code in Delphi, you are going to run into the same file compatibility problems which bit me. Your program will save and reload its own files, but they won't be compatible with either .box files from Templot2, or .otbox files from OpenTemplot/Lazarus, or .otbox files created by the conversion function which will be in the next Templot2 update.Templot uses the extended type throughout, apart from a few odd cases. And the file format is binary. Consequently there is no way the files created by the two versions can be compatible. I have had to write some conversion functions to create .otbox compatible file format in Delphi. In the process I took the opportunity to tidy up the format by removing some old stuff applicable only to Templot pre version 0.48.

What this boils down to is that if you create a Delphi version from the published OpenTemplot code, and want to load your existing .box files into it, you will need some more code from me to allow the conversion. I will open-source that and post it in due course. But I need to get the Templot2 update done first. :)

p.s. You should find the form files are compatible if you change the .lfm extensions to .dfm. If not I could post the original .dfm files. In every unit you will need to remove the {$MODE Delphi} directive.
Thanks for all that information.  If it gets too heavy a task setting it up in Delphi7,  Lazarus will probably have to be downloaded. :D

Jim.

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15th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 14:31
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from:
Andy Vines
Market Harborough, United Kingdom

 

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I would go with Lazarus on this as its being actively developed so will keep working on Windows 10.

There are certain aspects with Delphi 7 that do not now work on Windows 10 in relation to the old BDE (Borland Database Engine) so even though I still have it installed I am trying to move our inhouse app onto Delphi XE4 as soon as I can and will probably consider going to Lazarus with that in the future due to the escalating costs of Delphi.
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16th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 16:47
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from:
Jim Guthrie
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I've installed Lazarus. :):):):)

Jim.
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17th message | this message only posted: 11 Jun 2018 17:31
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Jim Guthrie wrote: I've installed Lazarus. :):):):)

Jim.
Hi Jim,

And I've won my bet with this tea-cup. :)

Now that you're here, maybe you can help with this: :)

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3285&forum_id=25

cheers,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 14:20
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Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Thanks so much for doing this.  I'm quite excited by it as well as relieved!  I've stuck OpenTemplot on a USB stick for now where the executable runs fine, but I was reminded just how many preferences I've changed.  I wonder if the existing preferences files will work?  (That's a rhetorical question, I'll have a play later and find out!)

This whole thing is very early days for me, but I notice that Lazarus is available for Macs. I wonder... 

Cheers,

Paul

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19th message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 15:18
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from:
Martin Wynne
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Hi Paul,

The prefs files should work.

Yes, it should be possible to create a Mac version in Lazarus. It won't be me doing it, not least because I haven't actually got a Mac. :?

It won't be a 5-minute task because there are a lot of Windows calls to be replaced with Mac equivalents, assuming such exist.

cheers,

Martin.

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20th message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 18:26
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Adrian
 

 

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Paul Boyd wrote: This whole thing is very early days for me, but I notice that Lazarus is available for Macs. I wonder... 
You're not the only one.
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21st message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 18:45
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Yes, it should be possible to create a Mac version in Lazarus. It won't be me doing it, not least because I haven't actually got a Mac. :?
Having just a quick look into this, it won't be me either!  But I'm chuffed with this...



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22nd message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 19:01
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from:
Martin Wynne
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Paul Boyd wrote:  But I'm chuffed with this...Well done. :)

Martin.

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23rd message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 19:22
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Rob Manchester
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Martin,

As I noted in a previous post it is great for you to have released an 'open' copy of Templot for us all to use as and when required, copies stored in the sock drawer or the house deeds box in case the Templot PC goes up in smoke. Full marks for that :)

It is also great that individuals can alter or add to the source code so that Paul can have his personal greeting or anyone can add whatever they desire - for their own use.

What I don't quite understand is how a 'master' downloadable version of OpenTemplot would operate. I understand the basic priciples of repositories and managing updates but doesn't somebody ( or a group ) need to oversee it ? If everybody can potentially make additions to the original code isn't there a danger of features appearing that, whilst accurate from a programming aspect, don't actually conform to prototype track design ? There are not too many Templot users who have a total understanding of track design principles and unless there is a guru waiting in the wings to effectively take on Martin's role how is the overall project's future to be managed ? There very little functionality missing from Templot that Martin would add if he was 20 years younger.

A version for a Mac would appeal to a small number of people but converting the current code for that platform isn't quite the same as adding design modifications to OpenTemplot.

Rob


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24th message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 19:37
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pointo1d
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Hiya Rob/all,

The standard modus operandii is to have a vanilla code base - the default/"main" branch - and create extension specific named development branches (variants) of that code base as the vanilla code base is extended; So, in this case, the vanilla/main would be the existing OT code base with a branch each for Windoze, Mac, Linux et al. As features/extensions are developed which are deemed to be useful across one, or more, other branches, then these can be cross-merged as required ... maybe even merged back to the base (main) if so desired.

All, of course, subject to agreement.

HTH,

Best rgds,
Dave P
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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Hi Dave,

Thanks for the posting. I agree that work to provide OpenTemplot for different platforms is worthwhile if Windows isn't your thing. It is just the incorporation of incorrect prototype practice that worries me after Martin spending so long making the program conform as closely as possible.

Rob


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26th message | this message only posted: 12 Jun 2018 19:53
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Paul Boyd
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Rob Manchester wrote: It is also great that individuals can alter or add to the source code so that Paul can have his personal greeting or anyone can add whatever they desire - for their own use.

What I don't quite understand is how a 'master' downloadable version of OpenTemplot would operate. 
The "greeting" was just to prove to myself that I was able to modify the code and re-compile it successfully.  It's been a long time since I've done anything like this!
On your other point, I'm not sure there was intended to be a "master" version, that's not how I saw it. I thought it was meant as a means of protecting the users in the event of a sudden change to the bus timetables in Martin's neck of the woods by giving us a backup - your "sock drawer" analogy - whilst also allowing individuals to make tweaks.

Since starting this post, I've seen Martin's reply on the SourceForge thread, which confirms how I was starting to feel - it's getting a bit heavy with people wanting to take control and manage it all into a single project.  Martin's description of individuals posting little chunks of code for people to choose to incorporate or not into their own versions pretty much matches how I saw it happening!

Cheers,

Paul

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Martin Wynne
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Rob Manchester wrote:It is also great that individuals can alter or add to the source code so that Paul can have his personal greeting or anyone can add whatever they desire - for their own use.

What I don't quite understand is how a 'master' downloadable version of OpenTemplot would operate. I understand the basic priNciples of repositories and managing updates but doesn't somebody ( or a group ) need to oversee it ? If everybody can potentially make additions to the original code isn't there a danger of features appearing that, whilst accurate from a programming aspect, don't actually conform to prototype track design ?
Hi Rob,

See my reply to Adrian just now:

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3284&forum_id=25&jump_to=24983#p24981

I agree. The folks who want to put a Microsoft ribbon interface across the top of the screen are probably not the same ones who want to adjust the switch blade clearances in a double slip. There could be arguments, and there is no way on Earth I'm going to be the one overseeing such a master project.

That's why my thought was that everyone would make their own version of Templot. To be shared or developed with others if they wish, or not if they don't.

Whatever anyone does, the basic version of OpenTemplot which I have just released will stay on the server or be copied among friends, for anyone who wants to use the original, for as long as it still works.

cheers,

Martin.

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Adrian
 

 

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Since starting this post, I've seen Martin's reply on the SourceForge thread, which confirms how I was starting to feel - it's getting a bit heavy with people wanting to take control and manage it all into a single project.  Martin's description of individuals posting little chunks of code for people to choose to incorporate or not into their own versions pretty much matches how I saw it happening!
I hope that wasn't as a result of my response in that thread because that was not the impression I wanted to give. I was trying to point out that any open source development requires some level of co-ordination by someone. I was purposely avoiding laying any of that at Martin's door as I understand he'd prefer it to stand on it's own. If that came across as trying to take control then I apologise. 
I just feel it's a huge opportunity missed, it doesn't stop anybody making their own little versions but having one reference version helps people to get all the updates in one version. If everyone is making their own little copies to scratch their itch then what you end up with is having to "version a" to include a new track standard, then open "version b" to import SVG files, then open "version c" to include the option to make an outside double slip, then "version d" to export to pdf. etc etc.  Merging all of these different code versions together into their "version e" is going to be difficult for any programmer. In the spirit of community build having many people working on the same code base is the usual adage - many hands make light work.

Regards

Adrian    

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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin Wynne wrote:Whatever anyone does, the basic version of OpenTemplot which I have just released will stay on the server or be copied among friends, for anyone who wants to use the original, for as long as it still works.Martin,

That is the most important bit :)

Rob


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from:
Rob Manchester
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Adrian,

I agree with your concerns about merging various updated copies of OpenTemplot but the issue as I see it is making sure that track design does actually follow prototype practice otherwise we could have 20+ years of layouts at model shows that are incorrect in some prototype detail.

Aspects of the program such as import and export functions ( if not kindly provided by Martin in some way ) are rather different and could be implemented by users with less prototype and mathematical insight which is fine.

Rob


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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Adrian wrote:I just feel it's a huge opportunity missedHi Adrian,

Nothing has been missed yet. If you or anyone else want to run a single collaborative project on Sourceforge or Git-Hub or wherever, as far as I can see there is nothing to prevent you from doing that. To avoid confusion it would perhaps need its own name, UltraTemplot or some such. I'd be happy to help occasionally, if it's raining. :)

I've been looking at the forums for some other open-source projects, and one thing which stands out is that it does require everyone to be at the same or similar skill level. Otherwise it can get a bit nasty with some hurt feelings.

Templot is and always has been a hobby project for fun. I want it to stay that way. When the code doesn't work the correct answer is to have a nice boiled egg.  

cheers,

Martin.

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Martin Wynne wrote: Adrian wrote:I just feel it's a huge opportunity missedHi Adrian,

Nothing has been missed yet. If you or anyone else want to run a single collaborative project on Sourceforge or Git-Hub or wherever, as far as I can see there is nothing to prevent you from doing that. To avoid confusion it would perhaps need its own name, UltraTemplot or some such. I'd be happy to help occasionally, if it's raining. :)

I fully understand that is an option that is open to us (me). I suppose I was hoping that the community would support development on this OpenTemplot project, as like it or not it has your name on the project which implicitly adds an endorsement of the "official" open source Templot project. Any splinter project will have an awful lot of work to do to establish the same level of respect/status. As Rob has highlighted any offshoot project will need some level of technical authority to verify the track standards used.
Anyway I had a quick play on my MacBook Air - using Virtualbox to run a Windows 7 virtual machine. This was the result of my efforts - as other have said thank you Martin for doing this it is very much appreciated.


  

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from:
Martin Wynne
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Adrian wrote:I suppose I was hoping that the community would support development on this OpenTemplot projectHi Adrian,

Well they haven't said they won't. Bear in mind that the community here are trackbuilders rather than programmers -- you may be overstating the abilities and interest that will be shown.

as like it or not it has your name on the project which implicitly adds an endorsement of the "official" open source Templot project. Any splinter project will have an awful lot of work to do to establish the same level of respect/status.
If it's called somethingTemplot the origin will be fairly obvious. I'm happy to have my name mentioned on it if you feel that counts for anything. I can hardly deny being implicated can I? :)  And as I said I will join in occasionally.

But don't go overboard -- for the foreseeable future the "official" version will still be Templot2 and I don't want to be wasting my time on that if everyone has voted with their feet for your SuperTemplot version. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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Rob Manchester
Manchester



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Martin,

I will certainly be using the 'on-line' version of Templot rather than using or tweaking OpenTemplot. It is only fair to do so whilst it is available ( and being developed ) :)

I will still try the OpenTemplot compile though - the desire to get "Hi Big Rob" on the welcome screen is beckoning me :?

Rob


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Martin Wynne wrote:

Well they haven't said they won't. Bear in mind that the community here are trackbuilders rather than programmers -- you may be overstating the abilities and interest that will be shown.



I fully appreciate that and the fact that the number of programmers interesting in track building are as scarce as Scale7 modellers with a completed layout in my view is all the more reason for a community based effort.

With such limited numbers then it seems sensible to consider a group effort to avoid duplicate work. Also aside from yourself, I don't think any one developer will know the full scope of the application nor have all the answers. Hence a group effort would be mutually beneficial.  

But don't go overboard -- for the foreseeable future the "official" version will still be Templot2 and I don't want to be wasting my time on that if everyone has voted with their feet for your SuperTemplot versionThere is no intention for any super Templot version - it would only be a pale facsimile of Templot2. My only thoughts at the moment are replacing the missing functions you have been unable to open source. For example the pdf export facility, I noted in the Lazarus installation a couple of pdf packages - whether these would be able to be used for OpenTemplot I'm not sure. I'm quite happy to investigate it but would be hesitant in doing so if there are others also doing the same work.  



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Martin Wynne
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Hi Adrian,

Let's see how things develop - it has only been 4 days so far.

If some folks want to coalesce around a group OpenTemplot project I'm happy to join in a bit. I just don't want to do anything which will deter beginner coders and dabblers from posting their ideas and questions, and creating their own private Templot versions if they wish.

I can see the advantage in not duplicating effort, for example in replacing the PDF export.

Why don't you go ahead and set up whatever we need? I confess that I'm floundering in trying to make sense of the Tortoise client and the instructions on the Sourceforge site.

What I would very much prefer is that any discussions take place here on Templot Club rather than on the Sourceforge mailing lists, to keep it as inclusive as possible. And free of all those abbreviations and acronyms which mean nothing to me.

Martin.

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Hello,
        Not being a programmer I can only wish all those interested in Martins gift of an open version the best for any future developments they may care to make.  I thank you Martin for your generous and humble contributions to making it possible to recreate prototypical model track to such a high degree of realism and accuracy.  Could I just say please avoid being overloaded with involvement in two projects at the same time because you appear unable to resist getting stuck in.
Regards
Trevor  :)

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Martin Wynne
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Thanks Trevor. :)

Martin.

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Martin et al

Martin - I feel what you have done in releasing the source code of Templot is brilliant. However, that said, I would not really want to see the two versions, Templot2 and open Templot, diverge significantly. You have said you intend to continue development on Templot2 for the time being. I note the comments about change control on Open Templot, but have you considered a mechanism for picking up useful additions from Open Templot and incorporating them in Templot2 and thereby effectively creating a new open source version of Templot so that the best is incorporated in whatever is passed over as open source when you finally decide that you are no longer able to support Templot2?

Kind regards

Peter
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Martin Wynne
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PRChappell wrote: I would not really want to see the two versions, Templot2 and open Templot, diverge significantly.Hello Peter,

There is a legal complication here. Templot2 contains some sections of copyright code which I have a licence to use, but not to publish. This means that Templot2 must remain closed-source and therefore non-compliant with the GPL open-source licence.

That in turn means that if someone else makes some significant improvements in OpenTemplot, I can't automatically use them in Templot2. I would need specific permission from the contributor to do so. Which they would hopefully give, but may choose not to.

And going the other way, if I make changes in Templot2 which rely on the licensed code, they can't be included in OpenTemplot.

That applies to the PDF export, and also at present to the Sketchboard.

So some divergence between the two is inevitable. But hopefully ways can be found round these issues. We may find open-source components which can replace those missing.

The intention is that OpenTemplot will be a continuation of Templot2 by other means, so we will obviously try to minimize any loss of Templot2 functions.

cheers,

Martin.

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