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topic: 3444Can Templot help design a layout from a map?
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posted: 20 Jun 2019 09:07

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Hi this is my first message on Templot.  I've not got a lot of experience with using the Templot downloaded onto my pc, and haven't looked a lot at this Forum, so apologies if I'm asking very basic questions that may have been covered plenty already. 

I've managed to get a map of the 1967 closed terminus at St Enoch Glasgow onto my Templot screen, but can't see what I should do next.  What I am wanting to do first is see how much room it takes in P4 gauge, and from that decide which parts I might find practical to model - at least space wise.  After that I'll want to get the actual turnouts to start making them if I can think of any practical way of going ahead.  The attraction of the location is that it is in a quite confined area that in total might not take an impractical amount of space for a group of determined modellers.

I could load an image of what I've got so far but maybe the above is enough to be clear what I'm asking.  Maybe anyone can refer me to instructions elsewhere on the Forum that tell me what to do?

posted: 20 Jun 2019 10:30

from:

Ariels Girdle
 
 

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The map you have ought to have a scale on it. If so, you can easily work out how big a model would be without using Templot. I tend to draw 300mm grid on a copy of the map. That way it is very easy to visualise how big it would be.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 11:49

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Yes of course, Ariels. I think it's the NLS 50" map. Assuming it is,there are convenient grid lines on it, but what is the distance between each line?

posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Julian Roberts wrote:
I think it's the NLS 50" map.
Hi Julian,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

If it's a map on the NLS web site, Templot can load it and resize it to match your model scale automatically.

1. set your model scale to P4. You must remember to do this first. It's easy to forget.

2. click the background > maps menu item.

3. enter a short name for the map, top-left. the name can be anything you like.

4. select this screenshot map item, and enter the URL link from the browser address bar:

 2_200708_230000000.png2_200708_230000000.png

If you post the URL here, I can provide more detail.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:25

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Hi Martin - this is the URL
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.8560&lon=-4.2503&layers=170&b=2

I'm not absolutely sure which map this was but it shows what I need to see.

Yes I'd forgotten to choose the gauge!:roll:

I'm replying before having a play to see if I can now get to the next stage

Thanks!
Julian

posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:49

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Julian,

Thanks for the link.

That's a complex station throat with curved slips, irregular diamond-crossings, etc.

I strongly, strongly, recommend that you learn to use Templot on something much simpler, before starting on your magnum opus. Otherwise you are likely to get in a frustrating mess.

I have made this point many times here. :)

A first question would be for 1967, is this all bullhead, all inclined flat-bottom, or a mix? It won't be vertical FB, because that was introduced only about 1970.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:59

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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3591_200757_000000000.png3591_200757_000000000.pngThis is roughly what my screen looks like now, and where I don't know what to do next.  For starters I need to see what real model size would be taken to do various parts of this station, easily calculated if I know how far apart the grid lines are.  Then, supposing I choose the large baseboard option 1600 x 750mm
I would need to select a suitable part of the prototype as what I'd like to model, and then get Templot to draw the actual tracks.  Obviously not much of the overall prototype would fit on that baseboard size so the fun part would be playing around with baseboard sizes (can one also try different shapes of baseboard? - e.g. triangular?) and seeing what part of the prototype could be practical as a one person project.  What I have in mind is a cameo - the view from one perspective, one place the trainspotter might have stood.  Please can I leave aside for the moment the question of whether this is totally daft?!

Attachment: attach_2848_3444_Capture_temporary__to_delete.PNG     162

posted: 20 Jun 2019 13:16

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Hi Martin

My last was sent before I saw your reply.  Yes, point taken. But to reply to the question. The station was closed by 1967.  There was a resignalling in 1957.  I'd go for bullhead which is what appears in all photos I've seen. 

Don't worry, I've no illusions about the difficulties and no intention beyond represent a small section.


Thanks!
Julian

posted: 20 Jun 2019 13:47

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Julian Roberts wrote:
For starters I need to see what real model size would be taken to do various parts of this station, easily calculated if I know how far apart the grid lines are.
Hi Julian,

It is already at the correct scale size.

The sizes are marked along the bottom and left of the screen. You can change the units if you don't like mm.

To make it easier to see, you can put the grid lines in front of it, like this:

1. click background > shapes menu item.

2. click this option:

2_200836_070000000.png2_200836_070000000.png

You can change the spacing of the grid lines if you wish.

To measure the size of individual items, you can also use the utils > ruler > show ruler tool. ALT+left-click, ALT+right-click to set the two ends of the ruler at a mouse location, and see the distance between them.

You can add any baseboard outline you like, based on your carpentry skills.

However, most folks design the track plan first, and do the detailed baseboard design around it afterwards.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 14:52

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Got that thanks Martin. That's got the basic question answered.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 23:07

from:

Ariels Girdle
 
 

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Julian Roberts wrote:
Yes of course, Ariels. I think it's the NLS 50" map. Assuming it is,there are convenient grid lines on it, but what is the distance between each line?
The individual maps on the NLS site have a scale at the bottom eg http://maps.nls.uk/view/82891767

There was a full track plan and signalling diagram for St Enochs printed in Mechanical Railway Signalling by H Raynar Wilson early in the 20th century. Probably too early for you though.

posted: 20 Jun 2019 23:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Ariels Girdle wrote:
The individual maps on the NLS site have a scale at the bottom eg http://maps.nls.uk/view/82891767
But as I keep saying, if you use Templot to make the screenshot, it will do the model scaling for you.

Martin.

posted: 21 Jun 2019 12:56

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Martin I should said yesterday, how marvellous, and what a brilliant thing this is. Sorry I hadn't seen already, that the scaling was already done. So I can easily see what (perhaps I should say, how little!) might be practical.

I've got a bit of time to read up the topic so could you point me which bits of the forum to read? I can see quite a bit about loading the map, which came remarkably  easily having read that before. Regarding familiarity with Templot I've got as far as being able to select from the options and print out turnout templates but obviously that is scratching the surface. I had the no doubt naieve idea that Templot would be able to look at an individual turnout (or slip or diamond or whatever) on the map and zap out a model size template to construct that turnout. But do I in fact have to design it, and adjust it to fit? I'm sure somewhere these questions have already been answered, but in a couple of hours reading I've not found that process described. I hate to waste your time if there is an easy way to refer me to answers you have given before. Whether I go for a bit of this location or another, I hope to base any layout around actual size (in scale) pointwork and trackwork which is why I'm looking for a suitably interesting (preferably cramped and curving) location in Scotland.
Ariels thanks for the pointer. My modelling period is BR up to mid 60s. That article would indeed be fascinating though I'd be particularly interested to see pictures that show the sigalling as it was before 1957 replacement with colour lights. The map shows "Signal Bridge" in several places but whether that term implies semaphores, not colour lights, I don't know. 

posted: 21 Jun 2019 13:56

from:

John Palmer
 
 

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Julian, the signalling diagram in Raynar Wilson's book  (as re-published by Peter Kay) represents the Sykes electro-mechanical installation dating from the early 1900s.  This was replaced, it appears, by installation in 1933 of a Westinghouse Style L power frame, at which time colour light signalling was also installed.  So it would seem that the re-signalling in 1957 to which you refer can only have been  an upgrade to the existing colour light installation.

Returning to the subject of the diagram in the Raynar Wilson work, it seems clear that the 'bridge of signals' marked on the plan is carrying dolls for the various semaphores drawn adjacent to it.

posted: 21 Jun 2019 14:22

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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To use templot, you need to work through the video tutorials, only by using it will you be able to get the hang of how it works. Be ready for a steep learning curve, it's not quite as bad as it used to be as Martin has automated some of the processes.

Phil.

posted: 21 Jun 2019 15:18

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Julian Roberts wrote:
I had the no doubt naive idea that Templot would be able to look at an individual turnout (or slip or diamond or whatever) on the map and zap out a model size template to construct that turnout.
Hi Julian,

If only. :)

But nowadays the Templot code is available open source, so if you or anyone else feels able to write the AI algorithms to do this, do please get on with it. Templot is 40 years old this year, and we can't wait for ever!

You could of course simply print the map at model size and build track directly onto it, without regard to the niceties of prototype track design. No doubt some modellers have done that. Templot will print the map at full model size if you put a short bit of dummy template on each page.

But do I in fact have to design it, and adjust it to fit? I'm sure somewhere these questions have already been answered, but in a couple of hours reading I've not found that process described.
Yes I'm afraid so. But designing and adjusting templates to fit are the core functions of Templot. Once you are familiar with those functions, the fact that you are doing it over a background map, layout plan, rough sketch, or whatever, is incidental.

Which means I haven't (yet) -- as far as I can remember (my memory now is poor) -- written anything specifically about designing templates to match a map. But there is plenty of stuff about designing and adjusting in general. I did find an old video about using background maps, and I have uploaded a clip from it showing a turnout being aligned over it:

 http://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=8whN3CIK_XsK5bobSWG4zg2

(If it doesn't start up automatically, just keep clicking the damn thing until it does. MP4 videos drive me mad. It was converted from AVI, so much larger file size than usual. It may take a while to download before it will start playing.)

For a prototype map what you do need is enough understanding of prototype track to interpret the map. Unless it is a large scale track plan from the railway company, it is likely to have been drawn by an OS surveyor on the ground rather than a permanent-way engineer in the design office. So for example it is likely to have the switch toe position marked (blade tips) and the crossing nose position, rather than the rail joints, and for some complex formations such as outside slips and tandem turnouts, quite often the surveyor gets the rails a bit muddled.

This topic discusses determining turnout sizes from a map:

 topic 3095 - message 22216

 topic 3095 - message 22326

For some notes about matching the radius of a template to a background map or other guide, see:

 http://templot.com/companion/swell_function_ctrl_f10.php

You may also find the wrap function relevant: 

 http://templot.com/companion/wrap_picture_shape_to_curve.php

The original topic about the automated background maps function is here: 

 topic 3051

The relevant bit for screenshot maps starts at:

 topic 3051 - message 21758

Topics previous to that one about loading and scaling background maps can be ignored as out of date.

cheers,

Martin.

posted: 22 Jun 2019 07:44

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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A quick note to say thank you for your fantastically helpful reply Martin, and to John and Phil too. I have not had any working Internet to view the links till after now. By the way Martin I looked at a post of yours from 2015 that said Templot is 40 years old and counting......but 4 years later posts have the same 40 years message! 
I can't see how to send this quick reply...copied it into reply blank 

posted: 22 Jun 2019 07:49

from:

Julian Roberts
 
 

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Though I can see a send button now on this quick reply box... please ignore this, I think I see what happened.

posted: 22 Jun 2019 11:35

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Julian Roberts wrote:
By the way Martin I looked at a post of yours from 2015 that said Templot is 40 years old and counting......but 4 years later posts have the same 40 years message!
Hi Julian,

That's in a forum signature. When you update your signature on a forum, it is updated on every post you have ever made, because it is applied to a post only when the post is displayed.

I started working on what became Templot in 1979.

I have just remembered this long page which I should have linked in my previous post. It explains the origin of Templot and includes a method of using it to design and adjust templates. I intended to expand it, but I'm afraid I forgot all about it:

 http://templot.com/companion/basics.php

Also, here is a history page which I wrote in 1999 when Templot was first released for others to use:

 http://templot.com/martweb/templot_history.htm

And this post includes some earlier writing:

 topic 3197 - message 23709

cheers,

Martin.



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