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                 Crossover and timber placements.
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 2 Jan 2020 14:37
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from:
Jason Johnson
 

 

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Afternoon all,
So I have been playing in Templot2 preparing for some track laying, watched lots of tutorials and info pages but just wondered if anyone can tell me what your supposed to do with the sleepers that cross over into each other ?
The 2 images are an A5 and B6 crossover and the gauge is set to 4SF, 16.2mm with 50mm between track centres.

I ask as I plan to export the files and cut my own sleepers to match the templot file. 

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Attachment: crossover_a5.png (Downloaded 74 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 2 Jan 2020 15:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Jason,

You need to omit some timbers (red below) and extend others to the full width across both tracks (purple below). To do that use the real > shove timbers function (SHIFT+F10 or just press the comma key).

Timbers are selected for shoving by clicking on their number (not on the timber itself). Click the ? help button on the dialog for detailed instructions.

 

How many long timbers varies, because timbering layout varies according to traffic conditions and the practice of the prototype company.

For example if this crossover is in sidings or a yard there may be only one or two long timbers. The plain sleepers are shuffled along to fit between them.

If this crossover is in a fast main line or part of a complex junction, there may be several more long timbers, or a lot more of them, possibly covering the entire area of both V-crossings and check rails.

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 2 Jan 2020 15:16
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from:
Jason Johnson
 

 

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Hi Martin, 
That’s great thanks, I’ll have a go with that. 

The area I am modelling is Goole station around the 90’s, would have looked like this and still does I believe. Mainly passenger services from Sheffield to Hull and freight (Coal and Biomass etc)



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4th message | this message only posted: 4 Jan 2020 19:04
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Different Region / Era, but this how I did my Moretonhampstead Engine Release Crossover.


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5th message | this message only posted: 4 Jan 2020 19:05
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from:
David Higgs
Bletchley, United Kingdom



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Martin,
I've uploaded several identical images (don't ask!); could you delete the duplicates please?
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6th message | this message only posted: 4 Jan 2020 20:08
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from:
Jason Johnson
 

 

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Evening, 

Thanks all for the responses, after several hours messing around this is where I am now at. 



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7th message | this message only posted: 5 Jan 2020 00:28
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from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Hello Jason

As someone who asked this same question a year or so back, one thing I can see is the location of the rail joints.

A) they are too close to the chairs (though with special 'saddle' chairs they can work around that)
B) the gap between timbers at the rail joint needs to be no more than X (I can't recall what it is, but I think your gap might be a little too large).

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an expert, just repeating what I understand from answers to my own questions.

Derek
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8th message | this message only posted: 5 Jan 2020 08:39
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from:
Jason Johnson
 

 

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Thanks for the input, are you referring to the large central timber ? If so I would naturally put the joint in the centre of timbers. If not which bits do you mean? What scale track have you been doing ?
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9th message | this message only posted: 5 Jan 2020 12:01
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
DerekStuart wrote: the gap between timbers at the rail joint needs to be no more than X (I can't recall what it is, but I think your gap might be a little too large).Hi Derek, Jason,

Anything written about pointwork design has to be hedged about with a lot of generally/normally/usuallys because almost anything you say can be trumped by someone posting a photograph showing the exact opposite. :)

However, deep breath, in a running line the timbers adjacent to a rail joint should be no further than 13 inches from the joint to the timber centre, i.e. at 26" centres maximum. Otherwise the joint won't be sufficiently supported and there is a risk of dipping and broken fishplates. In non-running lines such as crossover connections, yards and sidings, the spacings might be wider, although usually some attempt is made to get the timbers as close to the rail joints as possible.

But, for bullhead track, the timbers can't be closer than 12 inches from the joint to the timber centre, i.e. at 24" centres minimum, otherwise there isn't room between the chairs for a standard 4-bolt fishplate.

If necessary that can by got round by using shorter 2-bolt fishplates, or saddle chairs (which support the rail but have no jaws or keys), but such things are quite unusual to see in most bullhead track.

For flat-bottom track the timbers can be closer to joints because the fishplates can fit above the rail fixings in most cases.

The above applies to standard-gauge track (nowadays called "heavy rail") -- for narrow-gauge, light railways, trams, industrial sidings, etc., almost anything is possible.

Jason you can see in your diagram:

  
that Templot has closed up the spacings adjacent to the rail joints at A. The position of these joints is generally fixed by the design of the switches and V-crossings. There are special chairs for switches and V-crossings which must fit the rails at specified positions, so there isn't much scope for moving timbers to and fro within a standard turnout.

But at B and C some adjustments might be needed. At these locations the rail joints can be moved if necessary by shortening the vee rails on site to fit. But that's quite a lot of work, because it also means drilling new fishbolt holes. It also means that if a later repair is needed, standard stock replacement rails won't fit. Also you can't shorten a rail by just an inch, because of the existing holes.

So you have to put on your p.w. engineer's hat, and draw on your lifetime experience of track design. :)

In this case I think I would use two separate timbers at B, so that they can be displaced sideways clear of the rail joints, as shown. Then the timbers at C need moving towards them to have the joints properly supported.

But someone else might come up with a different design, possibly using the equalized style of timbering, and/or possibly using an extra long timber. In Templot you can add extra timbers as bonus timbers.

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 5 Jan 2020 18:11
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from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

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Jason,

We've all been through that sudden jolt when we realise it's not as simple as we thought. But likewise you'll get another sudden 'jolt' when you suddenly and instinctively know where/when/how.

As Martin wrote, there's never 'the only way'. I designed a crossover once and it followed all the rules above, but when I showed it to an ex track operative, his comments about how difficult it would be to maintain were not kind. (timbers too close together/ problems with tamping etc).

Having been out of it for 2 years, I'm having to re-learn like you. Trust me, it gets easier.

Derek
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