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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Trackbuilding topics > Making (actual real model) diamond crossings, and curved turnouts
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                 Making (actual real model) diamond crossings, and curved turnouts
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 23 Jun 2020 16:53
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from:
Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin and everyone
I've had enough experience making turnouts to feel quite confident with their construction, not least because of the advice and instructions here and on the Scalefour Forum.  

I haven't made any diamond crossings, and I have an irregular single slip to make.  Is there any official instruction on making the K crossings to which you could refer me?  I'm not expecting difficulties with a Templot template to follow - but it would be useful to know if there any tricks of the trade, and traps to beware of!

Also, I have curved turnouts to make.  The curve is very gentle.  The issue with making blades fit the stock rails is to get the back straight where they mate with the stock rails.  I surmise that where these are curved, the thing to do is make them as if straight, mating properly, and then bend both stock rail and blade together.

Where the crossing is curved, I surmise the thing to do is to make them normally, then use files and/or bend as with the blades.
Would that be right, or are there other ideas?

Many thanks
Julian





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2nd message | this message only posted: 24 Jun 2020 17:55
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from:
Trevor Walling
United Kingdom

 

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Hello,
       There are a number of videos relating to track making here.https://archive.org/details/RightTrack/

Regards
Trevor :)

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3rd message | this message only posted: 25 Jun 2020 04:34
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from:
Pierre
Canberra, Australia

 

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Trevor,

Your bloods worth bottling mate. I've been looking for the Norman Solomon Right Track 10 series for ages, thank you.

Best regards,

Pierre


Trevor Walling wrote: Hello,
       There are a number of videos relating to track making here.https://archive.org/details/RightTrack/

Regards
Trevor :)


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4th message | this message only posted: 26 Jun 2020 15:20
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from:
Julian Roberts
 

 

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Thanks Trevor.  I can get the videos on sound only!
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5th message | this message only posted: 26 Jun 2020 15:47
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Julian Roberts wrote: Thanks Trevor.  I can get the videos on sound only!Hi Julian,

They are encoded H.265 /HEVC

You need to download and install the HEVC codec. For Windows10 it's free from Microsoft:


 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/hevc-video-extensions-from-device-manufacturer/9n4wgh0z6vhq

cheers,

Martin.

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6th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 00:32
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from:
Pierre
Canberra, Australia

 

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I open the video files in my Firefox browser (77.0.1 (32-bit) and they play just fine.

Regards,

Pierre
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7th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 06:45
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Pierre wrote: I open the video files in my Firefox browser (77.0.1 (32-bit) and they play just fine.Hi Pierre,

That's odd. They won't play in that version of Firefox for me, or 64-bit. Have you set your browser to open MP4 files in a separate player?

According to this page (scroll down to HEVC/H.265):

 https://caniuse.com/#search=video%20format

all browsers are marked red apart from Apple devices (Safari).



The solution is to go to this page:
 
 https://archive.org/download/RightTrack

right-click on the .mp4 version of the required video, and then Save Link As... to download the file.

Then double-click on the downloaded file to open it in Windows Media Player, or in the Windows10 "Films & TV" or "Photos" apps.

cheers,

Martin.

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8th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 07:41
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from:
Pierre
Canberra, Australia

 

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Martin & Julian,

There were two options for downloading the videos, MP4 or OGG. I did not have much luck trying to download or play the MP4 so went for the OGG and they seem to work fine on my Firefox browser. Perhaps the OGG is lower definition, the files seem to be a little bigger than the equivalent MP4 but its good enough for me.

Regards,

Pierre
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9th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 08:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Thanks Pierre.

After downloading the file, if it won't play you can use this excellent online converter to convert MP4 video files from H.265 to H.264, or OGG video files to MP4 H.264:

 https://www.online-convert.com/

They will then play easily in most browsers or other video players. Note that in the process the file will increase in size significantly.

I don't know the copyright situation on these Right-Track videos, however given that they are available on the Internet Archive above, I'm going to risk posting one here. It's now in H.264 format, which should play in your browser without problems:

 https://85a.uk/mp4_videos/RightTrack10.2.1.mp4

It shows Norman laying out a curved double junction the old way. If you ever wondered why I wanted to develop Templot, now you know. :)  See also:

 http://templot.com/companion/2_yes_i_build_track.php

 http://templot.com/companion/origins_intent.php

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 19:06
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from:
Julian Roberts
 

 

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Great, thanks so much everyone. Watched the one showing Norman drawing and laying out the junction, thank goodness this is what Templot supersedes, though Norman makes it look an enjoyable process, as he's such an expert. (Mind you, I've found it rather fun on Templot in the end!) I'll find one that shows the answer to my question later.
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11th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 19:22
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Julian,

Answering your original question, the usual process with curved pointwork is to follow the prototype. i.e. make the components as for straight, and then fit them to the curve on assembly.

For diamond-crossings and slips, the most critical thing is to get the vees exactly the right distance apart. Otherwise it will be impossible to get the other rails to align properly to gauge.

The distance between the vees varies with the track gauge, so you must use a template prepared for the actual gauge you are using. It's no good building an EM diamond-crossing on a P4 template, or a 00-SF diamond-crossing on a 00-BF template. You can get away with that sort of thing for single turnouts, but it won't work for diamond-crossings and slips.

Also, if printing the template from Templot, it's a good idea to do a printer calibration first.

cheers,

Martin.

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12th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 12:54
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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I would also add that obtuse crossings is one area where gauge widening is strictly prohibited. Worth checking you have a track gauge that is exactly right. Even if there is curvature through the diamond, the obtuse crossings must be to gauge. One issue I have found with EM standards is when the track gauge was increased from 18.0mm to 18.2mm many years ago, the obtuse crossing still needs to be made to 18.0mm gauge for the best chance of reliable running.
Regards
Tony.

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13th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 15:03
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tony W wrote:One issue I have found with EM standards is when the track gauge was increased from 18.0mm to 18.2mm many years ago, the obtuse crossing still needs to be made to 18.0mm gauge for the best chance of reliable running.Hi Tony,

When you do that, do you maintain the 17.2mm check gauge by reducing the flangeway to 0.8mm?

See also the EM-SF option in the Templot gauge list.

The EMGS published standard could do with updating to reflect the different back-to-backs for different wheel profiles (flange thicknesses):

Gibson, Ultrascale, etc. : 16.6mm
Romford/Markits: 16.5mm
RTR (NMRA 110): 16.4mm (not for EM-SF)

cheers,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 16:25
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from:
Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Martin Wynne wrote: Tony W wrote:One issue I have found with EM standards is when the track gauge was increased from 18.0mm to 18.2mm many years ago, the obtuse crossing still needs to be made to 18.0mm gauge for the best chance of reliable running.Hi Tony,

When you do that, do you maintain the 17.2mm check gauge by reducing the flangeway to 0.8mm?

See also the EM-SF option in the Templot gauge list.

The EMGS published standard could do with updating to reflect the different back-to-backs for different wheel profiles (flange thicknesses):

Gibson, Ultrascale, etc. : 16.6mm
Romford/Markits: 16.5mm
RTR (NMRA 110): 16.4mm (not for EM-SF)

cheers,

Martin.
Hi Martin.
This is where the EM standards are confusing in my view.
I have two booklets on EM track standards. The earlier one gives the gauge as 18.0mm, BB as 16.5mm and flangeways as 1.0mm. The later one gives the track gauge as 18.2mm, but the other dimensions are the same.  So the answer to your question is no, it remains at 17.0mm with 1.0mm flangeways.
The person who I build that track for has a lot of locos with Romford wheels.
Regards
Tony.

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15th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 17:45
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Tony W wrote:I have two booklets on EM track standards. The earlier one gives the gauge as 18.0mm, BB as 16.5mm and flangeways as 1.0mm. The later one gives the track gauge as 18.2mm, but the other dimensions are the same.  So the answer to your question is no, it remains at 17.0mm with 1.0mm flangeways.
The person who I build that track for has a lot of locos with Romford wheels.
Hi Tony,

With the check gauge at 17.0mm and 16.5mm back-to-back, the maximum allowable thickness for the wheel flange is 0.5mm. Otherwise it will hit the crossing nose. That was the original flange thickness specified in the 1951 BRMSB EM standard, but no wheels with such thin flanges ever existed (except the later P4 wheels).

Romford/Markits wheels have flanges 0.7mm thick, i.e. 0.2mm thicker than the BRMSB EM standard. Since those were the wheels much used in EM at the time, in the 1960s the EMGS gauge was increased by 0.2mm to 18.2mm, and the check gauge to 17.2mm, to accommodate them. Leaving the flangeway at 1.0mm.

If you are building EM track for someone using Romford wheels, it would be better to keep to the 17.2mm check gauge. At 18.0mm track gauge that means 0.8mm flangeways (as EM-SF). For chaired track that's very convenient -- Exactoscale can supply check chairs for 0.8mm flangeway. That should provide excellent running through K-crossings -- the check span is 16.4mm against a back-to-back of 16.5mm, providing good control.

cheers,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 21:18
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin, Tony,

As Martin may remember I use EM-SF at 18mm gauge as I think it offers visual advantages over EM track with 1mm flangeways and does run nicely whilst still allowing other peoples stock to run - provided no RTR wheels are used.. I use either Gibson/Ultrascale wheels or reprofiled RTR items and aim for a back-to-back of 16.6mm - my theory being that the available range is from 16.4 to 16.8 - ie half way between the two. I use 18.2mm on the plain line sections.

The Exactoscale 0.8mm check rail chairs are nice as long as you have straight or gently curved turnouts and you keep an eye on the gauge throught the turnout as it is easy to be a bit tight. Back to chopping up chairs for the less gentle turnouts.

I haven't made anything to EM-SF standard using obtuse crossings yet so need to try that at some time.

Rob


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17th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 22:14
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: As Martin may remember ... ... my theory being that the available range is from 16.4 to 16.8Hi Rob,

Martin remembers almost nothing these days. :?

The maximum back-to-back is 17.2mm minus the flange thickness. You would need to be re-profiling down to 0.4mm flanges to use 16.8mm. Even Ultrascale EM flanges aren't as thin as that, only P4-profile wheels are that thin at the flange.

Because the flange face needs to be angled, such very thin flanges can't be very deep.

For EM-SF the minimum back-to-back is 16.5mm, not 16.4mm. You need a running clearance of at least 0.1mm over the check span. That means the maximum flange thickness is 0.7mm (as Markits), and at that there is no actual tolerance left on the back-to-back, it must be 16.5mm.

I would be aiming for a flange thickness around 0.55 - 0.6 mm and 16.6mm back-to-back.

For the best running, get as close to the maximum as possible (17.2mm minus flange thickness) without exceeding it.

cheers,

Martin.

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18th message | this message only posted: 29 Jun 2020 21:04
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Thanks for summing up what I was trying to put into words.

Rob

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