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                 Turnout road check rail lengths + tags disappearing
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 26 Jun 2020 18:06
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin
I think I've found a bug or two!  Box file attached.

Firstly, when extending the check rails near or beyond the ends of the turnout, main road or turnout road, the label for the end of the check rail disappears and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it back other than doing a "reset all". (Unless it still happens to be the one currently being adjusted, of course)

Secondly, on the turnout or diamond road, we can't always extend the check rails very far, and this seems to be inconsistent.  On the box file, DS2 has been extended as far as it'll go, and the label has been lost.  This does only seem to affect the turnout or diamond side, I've extended main side check rails for miles to get check-railed plain track (and blanked of the turnout itself!)

The specific example where I discovered this was on an outside slip with inset rails and extending a diamond check rail towards the switch heel, but I can't quite get the flared end to reach!

EDIT:- Got it!  How far the turnout road check rails can be extended seems to be related to the main road length, not the turnout road length.  That shouldn't be the case, should it?

Cheers,
Paul

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message ref: 30143
Attachment: turnout check rails.box (Downloaded 15 times)
 
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2nd message | this message only posted: 26 Jun 2020 21:44
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Paul,

Thanks for reporting this. There seems to be two issues:

1. not being able to select a check rail end if the marker is not visible.

This is clearly a bug and I must do something about it. :?

In the meantime, there is a workaround you can use: with the check rail dialog still showing, do make the control on some other template. Select the required end. Do make the control back on the first template.

2. the length limit on the TS check rails.

I'm not sure if this is a bug or a feature or just a clunky user interface.

What you are intended to do if you want longer check rails is 1. extend the overall length of the template (F4) sufficiently to contain them. 2. if that makes the MS exit too long, shorten it back using the mouse action (sorry no shortcut available for this one):



Or on the menu:



Traditionally nothing can exist beyond the overall template length (F4). There has to be a limit somewhere. When I introduced the adjustable exits I allowed the TS exit to break this rule (but not the MS exit, which can only be shortened). Strictly speaking the check rails are not part of the exit, they are part of the V-crossing, so must still be inside the overall length.

But maybe that's all wrong, and it needs a re-think of the template dimensioning in the exit area. I'm not going to rush into that, because I know it is a minefield. For example, timbers can be shoved out beyond the overall length, but only provided their original position is inside it. Shortening the overall length to exclude it causes them to suddenly vanish (except bonus timbers).

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 10:36
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin
I've had a play, and as usual there's always a workaround!  I noticed that when I increased the overall length the missing labels reappeared, so I guess they're following the "nothing outside the overall length" rule.  I must admit that I don't often use the "Make" function and in fact had to remind myself what it does - what a useful tool!  Anyway, the trick worked.

What I did notice when shortening the main road was that timbers remain.  Is that intentional?  Mulling it over, it probably is as there have been a few cases when I've wanted to shorten the rails without changing the overall length or losing timbers.  I just need to remember that that function is there!  Any excess timbers can be omitted anyway.

Regarding the check rails on the turnout side, from a user interface point of view I was just expecting the check rails to be able to extend as far as the visible rails.  Now I know how to work around this, it isn't a big issue, but it would be nice not to have the labels disappear!

Cheers,
Paul

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message ref: 30155

 
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4th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 11:41
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Paul Boyd wrote: What I did notice when shortening the main road was that timbers remain. Is that intentional?  Mulling it over, it probably is as there have been a few cases when I've wanted to shorten the rails without changing the overall length or losing timbers.  I just need to remember that that function is there!  Any excess timbers can be omitted anyway.Hi Paul,

Yes it is intended for the timbers to remain. The main reason for the exit-shortening options is so that you can change the curving beyond the vee nose by rolling in a separate template. See the second half of this video:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

Here's the relevant frame from it:



But I'm thinking it would be useful in such cases to have a permanent marker of some kind for the CTRL-9 overall length peg position.

The check rail markers should definitely remain visible, and I will fix that.  :)

Always something to get on with -- this is what I'm doing at the moment for those who like to use pre-cut timbers, and order them from suppliers:




I'm also looking at a new feature to add dropper connection markers and isolation gaps in the rails, following a suggestion from Ian. It's useful to pre-drill the dropper holes in the baseboard before laying the track.

But also holes in the rails -- my preferred way of fixing droppers being to drill a 20 thou hole through the rail web, and use bare 1/0.5 solid wire (ex-telephone cables) soldered in as the dropper. Fresh clean metal in the hole means it requires only a smear of solder cream for a neat, barely visible result. But those holes are 100 times easier to drill before assembly, so a reminder mark on the template would be handy. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 21:05
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,
The timber/sleeper lengths list will be useful - I assume one of the 'options' will be to see the list in actual mm sizes for cutting purposes ?

Rob


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6th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 21:47
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Martin,
The timber/sleeper lengths list will be useful - I assume one of the 'options' will be to see the list in actual mm sizes for cutting purposes ?
Hi Rob,

Funny you should say that -- it's what I've been working on in the last hour.

There is a bit of a complication. The storage box can contain templates to several different scales, so compiling an aggregate list of model sizes for the entire box is a bit of challenge. Still thinking about that.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 23:18
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,
Hmm, I had forgotten the possibility of the storage box containing templates at different scales - probably because I am struggling to think of why I may want to do that :?

If you leave the measurements in prototype units there may be a rise in the sales of scale rules :D

Rob


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8th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 23:38
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Martin,
Hmm, I had forgotten the possibility of the storage box containing templates at different scales - probably because I am struggling to think of why I may want to do that :?
Hi Rob,

Remember the old idea of perspective modelling? 4mm/ft in the foreground, while 3mm/ft models run through the background scenery at a higher level. Or 7mm/ft + S gauge I seem to remember from an old magazine article.

If you leave the measurements in prototype units there may be a rise in the sales of scale rules :DPerhaps Templot could print them?

I said that in jest, but thinking about it, it could be a handy thing to have down the side of the template prints. They already include a mm grid, so a rule in prototype inches might be a useful addition.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 27 Jun 2020 23:57
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Hi Martin,

Yes, perspective modelling is very useful providing you can restrict the viewing position.

In modelling some people like to work in prototype dimensions when laying out things using a scale rule to lay out roads, buildings etc. I have scale rules covering from 1:24 down to 1:87 and find that cutting out a 3' wide window opening makes more sense than a 12mm wide one does in 4mm scale.

Mind you the odd mismatch of measuring systems is enough to drive everybody mad. Buy a loco kit in this country and the wheels have 1/8" axles on the loco and 2mm on the tender. The USA is still firmly in the imperial system but the HO track gauge is quoted as 16.5mm. Tell an american you work to an accuracy of a couple of tenths ( 0.0002" ) and they think you are a super engineer - just don't tell them you meant tenths of a millimeter :)

Look forward to the timbering lists once you figure it out.

Rob


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message ref: 30168

 
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10th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 00:02
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Rob Manchester wrote: Look forward to the timbering lists once you figure it out.Hi Rob,

I've decided that for the storage box cumulative data, all prototype dimensions will be converted to model size at the current scale of the control template.

cheers,

Martin.

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message ref: 30169

 
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11th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 00:25
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from:
Rob Manchester
Manchester, United Kingdom



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Martin Wynne wrote: Rob Manchester wrote: Look forward to the timbering lists once you figure it out.Hi Rob,

I've decided that for the storage box cumulative data, all prototype dimensions will be converted to model size at the current scale of the control template.

cheers,

Martin.
Thanks Martin, that is fine by me.

Rob


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message ref: 30170

 
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12th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 08:21
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from:
stuart1600
United Kingdom

 

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Rob Manchester wrote: Hi Martin,
Hmm, I had forgotten the possibility of the storage box containing templates at different scales - probably because I am struggling to think of why I may want to do that :?.......
Rob
The likeliest reason surely is where you have a narrow gauge line coming down to the standard gauge transfer sidings for example.  I have numerous would-be schemes that I have worked on where the storage box has templates in both standard 0-gauge and 0:16.5 narrow gauge.  Same scale of course but very differing rail/timber characteristics.

Stuart

Ignore this - just re-read Martin's last post and I realise that it is only the scale that is relevant to this particular issue....  Probably need another cup of coffee to wake up fully :roll:

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13th message | this message only posted: 28 Jun 2020 13:58
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from:
Paul Boyd
Loughborough, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin

Well, this thread expanded a bit!
Yes it is intended for the timbers to remain. The main reason for the exit-shortening options is so that you can change the curving beyond the vee nose by rolling in a separate template.The more I thought about it, the more I realised that's exactly why the timbers should remain, and in fact I would have used that feature much sooner if I knew about/remembered it!I'm also looking at a new feature to add dropper connection markers and isolation gaps in the rails, following a suggestion from Ian.Dare I suggest isolation breaks in copper-clad sleepers, which of course would have to be slid into position, and there may need to be more than one on a sleeper!  :D :D  (I'm joking, I think!)

The dropper connection markers really would be useful though.

Cheers,
Paul 

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14th message | this message only posted: 7 Jul 2020 12:17
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Paul,

These 4 check rail marker labels now remain visible for clicking if the turnout is shortened:



But not if the turnout is shorter than the V-crossing (they would be daft and annoying on a set of catch points).

Note that although the labels are visible for clicking, the check rails are not visible. They are still constrained by the overall length, which must be extended to contain them if required. This is a necessary requirement for working with partial templates (and a can of worms to change).

In version 227a shortly.

Thanks again for reporting this.

cheers,

Martin.

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