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page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > Inverted sleepering on turnout
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                 Inverted sleepering on turnout
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:26
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Have I done something stupid? I'm looking at the ends of the sleepers on this turnout. I hope to attach a picture now or soon.
The mainline sleepering goes in steps on this turnout, while the turnout road goes smoothly. Normally it's the other way round. I've got this far, sleepers stuck down to template, before noticing it's odd. 

Have I somehow made a RH turnout on a left hand bend instead of a LH turnout? Or is this how it's meant to look - with a loose heel switch does Templot generate interlaced sleepering automatically and is this what interlaced timbering looks like?

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2nd message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:41
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Two photos on the Gallery now
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3rd message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:43
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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4th message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:46
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Or is it perfectly OK? After all I didn't see anything odd till I'd got to this stage. And I'm not sure if it is odd.
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5th message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 20:53
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Tony W
North Notts., United Kingdom

 

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Hi Julian.
It is a left hand turnout, the line at the end of the turnout road curve proves that. What I think you may be referring to is that it looks to me as though the timbers are centered rather than ends in line.
Regards
Tony.

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6th message | this message only posted: 4 Sep 2020 21:49
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Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Julian,

It looks fine to me. You have a LH turnout, with timbering set to equalized-incremental and timbers centralized.

That's the normal setting for the equalized-incremental style:



The timber lengths increase in 6" steps, so when centralized, the "steppyness" is equalled out between the main-side and turnout-side ends.

If you prefer you can change it to timber ends in-line, which puts the main-side ends all in a neat line, with all the "steppyness" on the turnout side.

N.B. When you change to square-on timbering style, Templot automatically sets the ends in-line. When you change to the equalized-incremental style, Templot automatically sets the ends centralized. This means that if you want the opposite ends setting, you must change it after setting the style.

There is another setting which you may have changed, or changed in the past:



which may explain why you think it looks odd. For UK standard-gauge track on wooden timbers, you should keep it set on 6" steps. The other options are for modern concrete bearers, narrow-gauge, non-UK, and other types of track.

cheers,

Martin.

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7th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 08:15
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from:
Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin and Tony

Thank you for your very prompt replies.

I'm not at home to try this out on my pc. Is centralised the default setting?

I'm not sure if I have changed the default timbering settings by accident. I wasn't aware of changing them. But I had changed some for plain line so possibly could have disturbed the turnout setting.

I'm glad you say it's OK Martin. The issue is simple, do I build it as it is having got this far. Will it look right in the situation? It is the turnout to a short stub siding where ash was dumped alongside the track at Kyle shed. Photos are few as the turnout and siding were not original, and were later removed, so don't exist on many photos of the location.

I don't know in what situations centralised timbering would be prototypical - perhaps when both roads are used equally?

I'm looking for an excuse to build it as it is. There will be plenty of detritus around in any case so it won't be terribly noticeable. But it's still relatively easy to start again and adjust the timbering if centralised is definitely inappropriate here.

All best
Julian
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8th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 09:06
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from:
Julian Roberts
 

 

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Actually I think I've found the answer to the question of whether it will look OK in the situation. This photo does show more than I remembered.  Hardly a pukka mainline scene! Interested to know the answers to the questions all the same!

The turnout in question is the one on the right of the loco.





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9th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 11:33
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: I don't know in what situations centralised timbering would be prototypical - perhaps when both roads are used equally?
Hi Julian,

Your turnout will be fine. You are looking for prototype information which doesn't exist. The only way to model that turnout exactly would be to go and measure the position of each timber.

On most railways, centralized timbering is the norm with the equalized-incremental timbering style. Ends-in-line is the norm with the square-on timbering style. Templot sets these for you when you change the style.

In practice, although plain track sleepers are usually neatly aligned, in turnouts (especially in yards and sidings) the timber ends can sometimes be all over the place. Templot has a randomizing function to create that, real > timbering > timbering data...



Try setting the end-randomizing to 3 or 4 inches. Then hold down the F12 key to watch the timbers dance. :)

You can change the settings from a subtle variation to full narrow-gauge crazy track.

(Changing the timbering style clears the randomizing settings.)

Note that if you use this function, you must print as many copies of the template as you will need all at the same time. The timbering will be different next time.

cheers,

Martin.

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10th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 11:40
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from:
wcampbell23
Hamilton, Scotland, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: Actually I think I've found the answer to the question of whether it will look OK in the situation. This photo does show more than I remembered.  Hardly a pukka mainline scene! Interested to know the answers to the questions all the same!

The turnout in question is the one on the right of the loco.



Hi Julian

I presume the turnout in question is that just above the shopping trolley icon.

If so, is the timbering for this not interlaced?

Regards.

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11th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 13:22
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin

I'm grateful for your reassurance and I look forward to seeing that dance when next playing on Templot

Bill yes I believe so...:?
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12th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 13:47
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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wcampbell23 wrote: Julian Roberts wrote: Actually I think I've found the answer to the question of whether it will look OK in the situation. This photo does show more than I remembered.  Hardly a pukka mainline scene! Interested to know the answers to the questions all the same!

The turnout in question is the one on the right of the loco.


Hi Julian

I presume the turnout in question is that just above the shopping trolley icon.

If so, is the timbering for this not interlaced?

Regards.

Yes, the sleepering does appear to be interlaced on this one when you look at it carefully. Re the sleepering centreing etc., when I was planning the track for the Alkham Valley layout for the Folkestone MRC the chap in charge said he wanted all the pointwork sleepers the same distance apart. I told him that would be unprototypical and showed him some pics to prove my point (no pun intended). Variety being the spice of life. :)


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13th message | this message only posted: 5 Sep 2020 17:08
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Och some people!.....I'm 'God' on my layout! But it's going to take more than 7 days!
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14th message | this message only posted: 8 Sep 2020 07:22
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin

Having been convinced this turnout is fine, the interlacing question that Bill raised has been troubling me over the last couple of days. I see it does look quite distinctively different. Can Templot do interlacing for me? - there seem to be so many interesting possibilities I'd missed, is this another?

Cheers
Julian
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15th message | this message only posted: 8 Sep 2020 08:39
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Julian Roberts wrote: Having been convinced this turnout is fine, the interlacing question that Bill raised has been troubling me over the last couple of days. I see it does look quite distinctively different. Can Templot do interlacing for me? - there seem to be so many interesting possibilities I'd missed, is this another?Hi Julian,

Unfortunately there is no commonality of prototypes for sleepered turnouts (interlaced), every company had its own approach. So it's not likely much could be added to Templot beyond the existing functions. Essentially you need a prototype drawing, scanned and loaded as a background picture shape, and then add bonus timbers as necessary and shove them into position.

There is a good drawing of a sleepered turnout in the NERA 1912 book -- this is an NER sleepered crossover:


thanks to Mick Nicholson for the pic

But you need the Scottish designs for Kyle.

Change the timber width to sleepers (usually 10"), and all the timber spacing settings to half their usual values, so that you get double the usual number of timbers. This would avoid adding bonus timbers one at a time -- but they would still need shoving into position, and shortening to sleeper length.

There is a lot of discussion and links (not all now working) in this old topic (3 pages):

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=401&forum_id=1

regards,

Martin.

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16th message | this message only posted: 8 Sep 2020 20:51
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Hi Martin

Many thanks again. The link discussion gives me much food for thought. My initial reaction is I might try and do it by eye based on it and your information above.

All best
Julian
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17th message | this message only posted: 8 Sep 2020 21:04
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roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Sounds like a cunning plan to me.
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18th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2020 20:08
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Julian Roberts
 

 

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Rather a long time has elapsed till I could get back to the pc - here is the result of taking the above ideas on board.  I used the CR drawing in the linked thread as a basis, which has a quite random look to it in any case.  Then I used the Templot randomizing tool, with the turnout sleepers randomized by 2 inches, but no random twisting - it already looked pretty random in that way.
Anyone any comments before I commit this to model reality?  Quite a bit of effort adjusting the fitting of the sleepering on the plain tracks to the left!  (Rail joints at the notch will probably move by one sleeper to the left.)

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19th message | this message only posted: 12 Oct 2020 20:34
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roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Looks ok to me.
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