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                 Red rails for below minimum radius
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 21 Sep 2020 05:27
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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I saw a forum post, which I now can't find again to link to, where Martin explained that with a certain series of steps one could end up with a turnout with a very short (like less than a foot at full scale) section of rail with less than the minimum radius. 
In that post, the offending bit of rail was shown as red filled, while the rest of the rail was not filled.

My question is, where do I turn on below-minimum-radius rail highlighting?

I've googled my fingers to the bone, and all I've discovered is that: 
The red rail (Aphanapteryx bonasia) is an extinct species of flightless rail. It was endemic to the Mascarene island of Mauritius, east of Madagascar in the Indian Ocean.

which isn't close to the answer I was looking for, but might be effectively correct if I can't do it.


The reason I am asking is I have laid out a minimum radius curve, added a turnout to the outside of the curve, and made its V-crossing a parallel track type so the diverging route also curves back around. It sort of makes sense that to get back to parallel the outer track would have to at some point go below the radius of the main track, but I'd like to have the bad section highlighted while I mess around trying to minimize it.





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2nd message | this message only posted: 21 Sep 2020 11:58
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Hi Jerry,

Welcome to Templot Club. :)

There isn't a function to show filled rails on the screen, it would make the screen response very slow for large track plans. The rails on the screen show as edge lines only.

Filled rails are shown only in the output (with options for solid fill or hatching, and different colours, etc.).

Background templates can however be shown with the rail edges in a marker colour.

If you saw a screenshot with a red infill it would have been infilled on the image as an explanation for a diagram.

Sorry, there isn't a function to show the section of the control template having the smallest radius highlighted in red, although it's a nice idea. Thanks for the suggestion, I will think about how it might be done.

There is however a flashing red warning "lamp" when any section of the control template infringes your set radius warning, and you can see on the info panel which is the offending radius.

I have made you a video clip showing that:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=dZA9Gdfo6pI0EZe_25OCUQ2

The return curve radius in a parallel V-crossing can be adjusted by changing the turnout-side adjacent track centres, or by adjusting the curving of the whole template. As shown in the video.

Or by changing the V-crossing angle (F5).

Scroll and arrange the info panel so that you can watch the required data while making adjustments.

p.s. the parallel type of V-crossing is not often used. It is provided mainly for the situation where you want the loop turnout to be within a transition zone. The disadvantage is that it's not possible to split the exits to insert additional pointwork. If the main road is straight or on a constant radius, it is usually more convenient to use a regular V-crossing, and then tools > make return curve to start the loop, and tools > make double-track TS for the loop track. You then have separate loop templates into which you could insert pointwork.

cheers,

Martin.

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3rd message | this message only posted: 21 Sep 2020 13:08
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
p.s. Jerry,

An alternative approach would be to start with the loop track, and make simple link for the return curve, see:

 https://templot.com/companion/make_simple_link.php



Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 22 Sep 2020 03:48
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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Thanks very much, for your answer and assistance and video. 
I think you've pointed out a key point, that I don't want to use parallel V-crossings because I do want to add additional point work, so I'm working with your suggestion in your first p.s. paragraph. 

My end goal for this first template is a curved crossover with a split end on the outside rail, like this crude sketch (one line per rail pair).



I am hoping to build it using 3 simple curved turnouts rather than having to build a slip turnout, but the whole thing has to fit in a quarter circle, approximately, so if 3 curved turnouts are too long I'll have to build a single or double slip turnout for the outside track instead. 

A slip turnout might end up giving smoother running, so I may ultimately end up there for that reason, too. But I've never built a double slip before, and I was hoping to get a bit more practice building simpler trackwork before I dove into that.

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5th message | this message only posted: 22 Sep 2020 04:00
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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PS. This video looks like what I need to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGGBDOZkAYE
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6th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 17:09
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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What radius do you want the tightest radius, what gauge/scale? What rail section, bullhead, flat bottom?
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7th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 17:27
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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If somebody can remind me how to export my box file to here I've done a rough template of what's required, using 750mm radius in 00sf, presumably that's what is required.
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8th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 17:36
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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Hi Roy, I'm doing HO-NMRA for a north american prototype. I want to keep my minimum radius at 32". So I'm using flat bottomed rail, and since I'm not hand-laying all my track but mixing it with microengineering code 83 flex, I've selected 102, 8, 8, 8, 20, 0, 0 for the timbering data, with 8'6" sleepers, square on, ends in line.

I've got a decent attempt, but the tightest radius is turning out to be in the crossover, which I hadn't expected. My inner track radius then ends up being 43.8 inches, which is way too large, so I need to try again. Also in my first attempt I was inconsistent in frog size, using CLM for one and RAM for the other.



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9th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 21:09
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Jerry Goodwin wrote: Hi Roy, I'm doing HO-NMRA for a north american prototype. I want to keep my minimum radius at 32". So I'm using flat bottomed rail, and since I'm not hand-laying all my track but mixing it with microengineering code 83 flex, I've selected 102, 8, 8, 8, 20, 0, 0 for the timbering data, with 8'6" sleepers, square on, ends in line.

I've got a decent attempt, but the tightest radius is turning out to be in the crossover, which I hadn't expected. My inner track radius then ends up being 43.8 inches, which is way too large, so I need to try again. Also in my first attempt I was inconsistent in frog size, using CLM for one and RAM for the other.




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10th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 21:49
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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What I done was to change template to straight track; use the curve facility to make it the radius you want where you want it. so set that for 32" (having set the sleepering, gauge, track centres etc. Insert turnout, use the left hand/right hand toggle. On my one I set it as a left hand point. Make it longer using the "length" button. Then "make crossover". check the minimum radius, if it's too tight use the "length" to stretch the turnout. If the radius on the 2nd turnout is too tight, use the length button again. Don't worry too much about different common crossing types, Templot ought to do it for you. To make the 3rd turnout, move the peg to the exit on the switch end and "make mirror on peg". That will make another turnout on the peg for you. to make the branch track off that, either use the "make branch track" or "make reverse curve" buttons. Fortunately Martin has made a lot of short cuts since the original versions and what used to take me days to work out now takes a few minutes. My "Earls Court Junction" box (see separate thread) took about 3 hours to do a rough version to see if it would work. and that is quite a large layout. :)

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11th message | this message only posted: 23 Sep 2020 22:07
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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roythebus wrote: What I done was to change template to straight track; use the curve facility to make it the radius you want where you want it. so set that for 32" (having set the sleepering, gauge, track centres etc. Insert turnout, use the left hand/right hand toggle. On my one I set it as a left hand point. Make it longer using the "length" button. Then "make crossover". check the minimum radius, if it's too tight use the "length" to stretch the turnout. If the radius on the 2nd turnout is too tight, use the length button again. Don't worry too much about different common crossing types, Templot ought to do it for you. To make the 3rd turnout, move the peg to the exit on the switch end and "make mirror on peg". That will make another turnout on the peg for you. to make the branch track off that, either use the "make branch track" or "make reverse curve" buttons. Fortunately Martin has made a lot of short cuts since the original versions and what used to take me days to work out now takes a few minutes. My "Earls Court Junction" box (see separate thread) took about 3 hours to do a rough version to see if it would work. and that is quite a large layout. :)
I've had a bash at your templates, I hope the minimum radius is what you need. It might be a bit tight on the centre turnout, I've lost the information box again, but you can use the "size" button to adjust the turnout to whatever suits you say from an A6 to B8. "Length" adjusts the length of the whole template, not the geometry if that makes sense.
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12th message | this message only posted: 24 Sep 2020 03:30
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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Hi, it looks like you ran into the same limitation I was seeing. The problem is the left hand turnout (the outside half of the crossover). That is getting a minimum radius that is far too tight. The only thing I can find to do in templot to correct it is to lengthen the turnout - out to around a 1:20, which is far too long.

I am told by people who hand-lay turnouts for modelling but who don't exactly follow prototype practice that the 'trick' is to have the curved turnout contain a short section of straight track on the main route. I understand that this isn't prototypically correct, but it's necessary to build a curved turnout with a 1:8 V-crossing and a navigable minimium radius that isn't too long.

The straight bit on the main route makes the turnout diverge more rapidly and shortens the whole thing up to something feasible.

But I can't figure out how to set this up in templot. I need, for starters, a left-hand curved turnout with the diverging route curved at a 32" radius throughout the entire turnout, a 1:6, 1:8 or 1:10 (CLM) V-crossing (because those are the ones I have the jigs to build), and a main route that overall, including the straight section, effectively follows a curve that is about 34.5" or a little more.

How can I curve the two routes through a curved turnout at different radii?

Or, how can I specify that, for example, the turnout should be curved but the switch should be non-prototypical, with the diverging route curved at the turnout radius but the main line route nearly straight?

Ideally, I'd have the switch section, closure rail section and wing rail front section tangent for the main route but curved for the diverging route, and a rapid spiral easement on either end of the main route to transition between the tangent of the turnout and the overall curvature.
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13th message | this message only posted: 24 Sep 2020 06:05
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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You may find the 32" radius is only for a very short section, does this really matter? What you are trying may be feasible if you narrow the track centres but then you'll have problems with the length of some American stock.

I'll have another look at it later on. You may have to file your longer V crossiing by eye rather than using jigs. American turnout design so I've read on here differs to British design.
I'd say don't worry about how to make different radii through the turnouts, Templot does it for you. I find that just by lengthening or shortening the turnouts the radius will adjust itself.

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14th message | this message only posted: 28 Sep 2020 04:53
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from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

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I've gotten something to work, using 1:40 (C) model-only switches with 1:10 (CLM) generic V-crossings.

The key for me was to make the outside track crossover turnout first, cranking its turnout-side curvature down to my minimum, then use 'make ordinary crossover'. That worked a lot better than making the inner track turnout first and making a crossover to the outside track. The inner track turnout is broader than my minimum radius on both legs.

I could probably get by with a B switch/1:8 crossing on the inner track without violating my radius minimums, but I forgot to change it at the right point in this latest effort, and since I can fit the longer turnout I'll just keep it for better operation.

Thanks for the help. I'll attach what I ended up with, though I haven't done all the timber shoving yet. I want to play with easements on the end of the curves too, but I may do that part back in 3rd planit.

I've been able to export in 2D to a DXF file and import that into 3rd planit.

I'm also going to see if I can just read the dimensions of the curved turnouts I'm using from templot and enter those directly into 3rd planit as custom turnout definitions instead of messing with the dxf file.

Of course when I go to actually build the turnouts I'll print out the templot template and build on that.

Thanks for the help, I'll ask my next question in a different thread.
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15th message | this message only posted: 28 Sep 2020 07:06
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Glad you've got it sorted.
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