click here for a list of all existing Templot documentation
  Important Privacy Information cookie information pre-print options:    

 click image to open Templot Club in a new tab             Search           remove page highlighting
Templot club top logo
  looking for help ? -- -- --
looking for Templot? - (free)


enjoy using Templot? - 

 you are not logged in  - Login | Join

receive all messages by email: info


Recent Topics
Front Page  Search  Image Gallery  Gallery Upload  My Account  Members  SourceForge  TemplotMEC  Help  
make a donation  
please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors Templot Companion - User Guide
            Templot Chat Room
page trail:  Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > meaning of 'to the control'
Templot web site

                 meaning of 'to the control'
     
 Start new topic   Reply blank   Printer friendly 
  Rate this topic  
AuthorMessage
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
1st message | this message only posted: 29 Sep 2020 05:11
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
I'm a bit baffled by all the 'something to the control' commands. I've read through the tutorials that talk about wiping, deleting, going from background to the control, etc, and I'm just befuddled.
I understand that there is one control template that is the target of most commands. I sort of understand this as the 'foreground' template, while the others are 'background'. It's the template being controlled, I guess? Anyway, one selected template makes sense, but the sense of 'control' seems backwards. It's not controlling anything, it's the one being controlled and manipulated.

But the way the 'xxx to the control' functions work isn't penetrating my brain. I think I'm hung up on the word 'to', trying to figure whether it means 'up to the control' (so "delete to the control" would delete everything up to the control, but not the control, except then what's the order of the templates if there's just background and control?) 

Or maybe it means 'into the control'? That seems closer, would delete into the control mean you take a background template and delete it from the background and move it into the foreground and make it the control? But that's not really deleting anything, so that seems wrong, too.

If the 'to' means 'toward', that doesn't work either. None of these things seem to be working actually on the control, they're all applied to a background template you click on that isn't the control. 

The extra duplicating and backgrounding and foregrounding that these commands do is something I'm confused on.

I'm pretty stuck (mentally) thinking of the templates in an object-oriented paradigm, where they are things operated on. Maybe that's my problem? But then what's the correct way of thinking? If they aren't objects, they certainly aren't functions.

So please enlighten me, I'm in need of a good head twist, because my head is clearly not screwed on correctly to understand all this. 

This isn't a 'being from across the pond' problem, is it?

__________
message ref: 31001

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
2nd message | this message only posted: 29 Sep 2020 06:41
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Andrew Barrowman
USA

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Jerry Goodwin wrote: I'm a bit baffled by all the 'something to the control' commands. I've read through the tutorials that talk about wiping, deleting, going from background to the control, etc, and I'm just befuddled.
I understand that there is one control template that is the target of most commands. I sort of understand this as the 'foreground' template, while the others are 'background'. It's the template being controlled, I guess? Anyway, one selected template makes sense, but the sense of 'control' seems backwards. It's not controlling anything, it's the one being controlled and manipulated.

But the way the 'xxx to the control' functions work isn't penetrating my brain. I think I'm hung up on the word 'to', trying to figure whether it means 'up to the control' (so "delete to the control" would delete everything up to the control, but not the control, except then what's the order of the templates if there's just background and control?) 

Or maybe it means 'into the control'? That seems closer, would delete into the control mean you take a background template and delete it from the background and move it into the foreground and make it the control? But that's not really deleting anything, so that seems wrong, too.

If the 'to' means 'toward', that doesn't work either. None of these things seem to be working actually on the control, they're all applied to a background template you click on that isn't the control. 

The extra duplicating and backgrounding and foregrounding that these commands do is something I'm confused on.

I'm pretty stuck (mentally) thinking of the templates in an object-oriented paradigm, where they are things operated on. Maybe that's my problem? But then what's the correct way of thinking? If they aren't objects, they certainly aren't functions.

So please enlighten me, I'm in need of a good head twist, because my head is clearly not screwed on correctly to understand all this. 

This isn't a 'being from across the pond' problem, is it?
Hi Jerry,

It threw me a bit at first too. If you think of it as "the currently active for editing template" or the "active template" it should become clear. I'm sure Martin will have a much better explanation.

Cheers (from sunny Idaho),
Andy

__________
message ref: 31002

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
3rd message | this message only posted: 29 Sep 2020 07:32
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Jerry,

Read this page for an explanation:

 https://templot.com/companion/origins_intent.php

In the early days of Templot there was a long discussion in the old email group* about a suitable name for the control template. If you find some early web pages you will see it as the "current template" there. But that was causing confusion with the currently selected background template.

I wanted a name which is short (always important for the menus), and made clear that it is not part of the developing track plan until stored, and not just one of them which happens to be selected.

I settled on "control" to emphasize its unique nature, and the target of most of the controls. A better name would have been "generator output graphic", but who wants such a mouthful on a menu?

We are already stuck with "background template" in hundreds of places. That was originally called a "keep" in my own version and still is in most of the program code. For example the storage box was the "keeps box". I was persuaded to change it by Brian Lewis, then of C&L, who said it sounded childish. But I have always regretted changing it -- too late now, that was 20 years ago.  :)

*recently all deleted by Yahoo.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 31003

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
4th message | this message only posted: 29 Sep 2020 15:54
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
DerekStuart
United Kingdom

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Jerry,

Here's my advice. Put a few pieces of track down, press every combination of buttons and menus and see what it does. When you want it to do that again, you know what to do.

I have been using Templot for several years now and even then I get stuck on something or find some new feature or new way of doing things.

What stumped me (and I think most) at first is the growing expectation of everything being set out with "Microsoft style" menus.

Good luck.
Derek
__________
message ref: 31005

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
5th message | this message only posted: 29 Sep 2020 16:18
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
DerekStuart wrote: What stumped me (and I think most) at first is the growing expectation of everything being set out with "Microsoft style" menus.
Hi Derek,

Can you explain what are "Microsoft style" menus?

Templot has lots of Windows-style menus -- how do they differ?

If folks are getting stumped I want to fix it, but I never can understand where is the difficulty.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 31006

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
6th message | this message only posted: 30 Sep 2020 03:57
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Thanks, my understanding is a bit expanded :)

I understand now that there are three places where a template may live, it may either be the control template, or a background template, or it may be in the storage box.

I wasn't hung up on the name of the control template, it's clear what it is.

Where I got confused is what wiping or deleting to the control template means and does. I guess the phrase 'to the control' means that the selected template, the one that the command is being applied to, should end up as the control template. Something has to happen to the previous control template (automatically stored to the box?), and something may or may not happen to the selected template that is being wiped or deleted. It seems a bit odd to me to call it deleted or wiped when, as I understand it, it is just being moved. And I don't understand the difference between wipe and delete. (If I was forced to guess I'd guess that delete is undoable, but wipe isn't)

As far as the other person's comment about Microsoft style menus, I don't understand that complaint either.
__________
message ref: 31013

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
7th message | this message only posted: 30 Sep 2020 08:28
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



view images in gallery
view images as slides

Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Jerry Goodwin wrote: I understand now that there are three places where a template may live, it may either be the control template, or a background template, or it may be in the storage box.

Where I got confused is what wiping or deleting to the control template means and does.
Hi Jerry,

I fear that I have again failed to explain.

The basic working of Templot is so simple that it baffles me why folks find it so hard to grasp, and why I find it so hard to explain:

1. adjust what you see on the screen to what you want. The thing you are adjusting is called the control template.

2. store a copy of it as a permanent record of your work.

3. go back to 1. and adjust it again to make a new piece of work.



I have tried over and over again for more than 20 years to explain what seems to me to be these very simple and obvious concepts, but it's clear that I just can't do it. I will have one more go:

A "template" consists of 3 separate components:

1. a specification.

The track gauge, model scale, radius, angles, dimensions, option settings, the position and alignment. All the template design settings and locations that are entered, changed, and adjusted by the user. The current state of all these settings is collectively called the control template.

A record of all these settings is called a stored template. These records are held in the storage box, one for each template. The full collection of these records can be saved to a BOX file.

2. a build.

This is a big list of X,Y co-ordinate dimensions indicating the current position of every part of the template on the grid, in millimetres. So for example the top left corner of timber T14 might be listed as being at X=1073.29mm , Y=538.06mm. The grid extends from the grid origin at the bottom left of the screen to the ends of the Earth.

This build list is created by the generator engine, a free-running chunk of the Templot program which makes a new build list every time something in the control template specification changes.

The build list isn't normally available to the user because it would just be a screenful of numbers. It can however be seen if you export a DXF file. (Those are text-based files which can be opened and edited in any text editor such as Windows Notepad.)

3. a drawing.

This is what you see on the screen, or on the printed template. A graphical representation of railway track. For example a brown-coloured line from the top left corner of timber S9 to the bottom left corner, representing the edge of the timber. These lines a drawn on the screen or the printer paper using the information in the build list.



storing a template means that the current control template specification is added to the records in the storage box. The result is an unused template in the storage box. The control template remains unchanged.

store & background means that after the specification is stored, the current build list is also copied and added to the record in the storage box. The result is a background template in the storage box. This is the normal function used to assemble a track plan.

Every time the contents of the storage box changes, or the screen is panned or zoomed, a new drawing is created on the screen from the data held in the build lists in the storage box.

wiping a template means that the recorded build list for the template is deleted from the storage box, but its specification remains there as an unused template. With no build list available it disappears from the screen, but it can be recreated as a visible background template at any time by generating a new build list for it.

deleting a template means that all recorded data for the template is deleted from the storage box. It no longer exists, and disappears from the screen.

to the control means that before wiping or deleting a template, its specification is transferred to the current settings for the control template. Any pre-existing settings for the control template are lost.

copying a template to the control means that the stored specification is copied from the storage box to the current control template settings, but no changes are made to the storage box. Any pre-existing settings for the control template are lost.

make the control means that Templot first does store & background for the current control template settings, and then does delete to the control on the selected background template. This is just a convenient shortcut for the user, instead of performing these two operations separately. There are a lot of functions called make ... which work similarly by performing a store & background before modifying the current control template settings.



Last Saturday for the first time I attempted a live-screen broadcast of Templot being used, and you can see me using these functions to assemble a track plan in this clip:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=30h3au1S5O6j0LbfPFi7sw2

As a presentation it leaves a lot to be desired, but I think it may make the above ideas easier to grasp than the lengthy text explanation above. Perhaps I should make another one specifically to explain these ideas, with no actual written text at all.

cheers,

Martin.

__________
message ref: 31014

 
 Clicked a link? Wrong message? Wait until the page has finished loading, click in the address bar and then press the Enter key. This is a timing bug in some browsers.
8th message | this message only posted: 30 Sep 2020 16:30
 PM  Reply with quote  Reply blank 
from:
Jerry Goodwin
 

 

view images in gallery
view images as slides
Martin,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that lengthy reply. It is all much clearer to me now. As a beginner, I was a little stuck in the paradigm used by other programs, and I now see how templot is different.

To me, one of the key points is that the control template is not just another one of the plan templates that is selected, it is a separate slot that is *not* included (yet) in the 'plan'. That makes the program work flow a bit different than generic drawing programs. I can see where that difference came from in your history of templot.

The other thing that wasn't apparent to me was the difference between a template specification and a template build. I was assuming all the build data was either included in the specification data or treated like the drawing data and recreated as needed.

Thanks again for all your efforts both with the program and explaining it!
__________
message ref: 31016

 
This is topic ID = 3784     Page created at 17:07 (local time)  
You can type a quick reply to this topic here.

Click in the box to begin.


But to reply to an individual message, or to include images, attachments and formatted text, use the reply buttons on each message above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start new topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.

             Start new topic 

 click to jump to a different forum:     Back to top of page

Templot Club > Forums > Baffled beginners > meaning of 'to the control'
about Templot Club

list recently active topics Templot Companion - User Guide - A-Z Index Templot Explained for beginners Please click: important information for new members and first-time visitors.
indexing link for search engines

back to top of page


Please read this important note about copyright: Unless stated otherwise, all the files submitted to this web site are copyright and the property of the respective contributor. You are welcome to use them for your own personal non-commercial purposes, and in your messages on this web site. If you want to publish any of this material elsewhere or use it commercially, you must first obtain the owner's permission to do so.

The small print: All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted. The owner of this web site is not responsible for any content displayed here other than his own contributions. The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.
Problems with this web site? Contact webmaster@templot.com.   This web site uses cookies: click for information.  
© 2020  

Powered by UltraBB - © 2009 Data 1 Systems