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                 short rails, joints and timbering, rolling rails
     
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1st message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2020 06:35
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from:
Graham Long
 

 

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I have just made a new start for a track plan. Before I go too far I want to make sure I am using the programme efficiently. I have made a custom "rail and track" (44'6" with 18 sleepers per length) I have only got as far as making a loco release road road crossover and adjacent siding. Here is how a went about it. I have called the Templates 1 to 5 for the sake of this query.
 a) Got a plain track template, curved this to 1400 mm and made it 1 panel length. (Template 1) 

 b) Produced a turnout template (Old GWR and 14' V angle 1:8) I curved this to MS of 5280. (Template 2)

  c) Then formed a crossover. (Templot 3)

 d) I then formed a double track to TS of Templot 2. (Templot 4)

 e) I then formed a double track on inside of Template 1 (Templot 5)

This has already raised a few problems

  i) The panel lengths are: just under 1 length i.e. 17 sleepers for Templot 1 and Templot 2 was 1 length and 13 sleepers. How can I blend these two templates together so that the "rail Joint" marks from of the combined length of track, made of template 4 and 5, are marked out on the plan as as a multiple of the panel length with any residual sleepers? In this case 2 lengths and 12 sleepers. Rather than 17 sleepers and 1 length and 13 sleepers

  ii) Can a template be formed that has different radii a various parts of the e.g. say half of the template is say 2500mm at one end that changes to 1500mm at the other? Would this be prototypical?

  iii) As follow up to a previous query: if panel lengths arn't of standard length and in order to keep residual  lengths greater than 15 ' e.g. 25 panel with a usable residual of 20' what are the sleeper spacings for a partial panel length? Would the spacings of the two sleepers  at each end, be the same as a full panel of 44'6" with the number of sleepers between each end being  determined by the length track between the ends?

I hope all this makes sense. I know what I mean but it is hard to put into words. I will attempt to clarify if needed.

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2nd message | this message only posted: 5 Oct 2020 10:20
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but what I tend to do is take the template that appears on the screen with the turnout. Place that where you need it on your plan, then curve it to shape. Don't just make it the length you want. Presumably you are copying over a map or other drawn shape? Use the "length" function to make it along the length of the curve. If the radii are different the "swell" key can be used to ease the curve either way.

Use "roam" to roam the turnout to where you want it, use the L and R buttons to make it the correct hand and the "facing" and "trailing" to make it face the right way. The "size" button will adjust the size. Don't worry too much about sleeper detailing just yet, get the whole plan done first, I find it easier that way.

Once you've got the turnout as you want it, then "make crossover". The "straight" road on the other turnout will follow the curve of the original curve then you can extend the approach length and exit length to match that curve. orry about the detail later.

I find it easier to use the "mirror on peg" function at each end of an existing template to align an make the next template.

If you have a quick look at my other thread on here, the rather complex layout I'm copying took me about 3-4 hours of twiddling to get to the nearly complete state.
.
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3rd message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2020 15:55
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Graham Long wrote:   i) The panel lengths are: just under 1 length i.e. 17 sleepers for Templot 1 and Templot 2 was 1 length and 13 sleepers. How can I blend these two templates together so that the "rail Joint" marks from of the combined length of track, made of template 4 and 5, are marked out on the plan as as a multiple of the panel length with any residual sleepers? In this case 2 lengths and 12 sleepers. Rather than 17 sleepers and 1 length and 13 sleepers

  ii) Can a template be formed that has different radii a various parts of the e.g. say half of the template is say 2500mm at one end that changes to 1500mm at the other? Would this be prototypical?

  iii) As follow up to a previous query: if panel lengths arn't of standard length and in order to keep residual  lengths greater than 15 ' e.g. 25 panel with a usable residual of 20' what are the sleeper spacings for a partial panel length? Would the spacings of the two sleepers  at each end, be the same as a full panel of 44'6" with the number of sleepers between each end being  determined by the length track between the ends?
Hi Graham,

A lot of questions there. :)

I think you are mixing up two different concepts:

1. the template boundaries (join locations between individual templates) are determined by the geometry, alignments and radii of your track plan. Often in models we need to use shorter lengths and sharper radii than the prototype.

2. the rail lengths, rail joints and sleeper spacings are determined by the practice of your chosen prototype.

Often a template boundary coincides with a rail joint, but not always.

As Roy said, it's usually better to get the overall design done before thinking about the details of rail joints and sleepering. Otherwise you risk wasting a lot of work on that if you later find it necessary to modify the design. If you watched my live session last week you probably noticed that I switched off the timbering while working on the track alignments over the map.

Templot has all the tools you need to create proper rail joints and sleeper spacings for short rails, and to flow the spacings across the template boundaries from one template to the next. But it's a lot to explain, and years since I last did so, so I will make some new video clips shortly. Also it hardly belongs in the "baffled beginners" section, so I will move this topic to "Templot talk".

You can have two different radii in a single template if you make it a transition curve template. If you want an instantaneous change of radius, you would set the transition zone length between the two radii to zero. More about all that at:

 https://templot.com/companion/transition_curves.php

Zero-length transitions are sometimes useful for turnouts, but for plain track it is generally better to use two separate templates. There are pros and cons -- a zero-length transition template doesn't need any further work on the sleepers and rail joints. But several of the design functions in Templot are not available for transition templates. 

cheers,

Martin.

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4th message | this message only posted: 6 Oct 2020 22:08
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Hi Graham,

Here is a first video clip showing how to preserve full rail lengths and sleeper spacings across a series of template boundaries:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Default.aspx?id=s-VP149ck4Xd_5VeZm1MVQ2

This clip has a spoken commentary rather than interactive text. I'm sorry about the poor audio quality.

I will make another clip showing how to deal with the spacings within short rails, maybe tomorrow.

cheers,

Martin.

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5th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2020 05:21
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from:
Graham Long
 

 

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Thanks for input. I will attempt to take it all in.

I am expecting that I will need to ask some further questions when I have had an attempt to put it into practice.

Regards
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6th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2020 07:04
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,

I really appreciated the video. However, you stopped just short of the point that would really make me happy, sorting out the sleepering where the track joins the turnout. The first sleeper of the plain tracks leaving the turnout overlap and I can't see an obvious way to move the sleepers, without overlap of the other track and maintaining the correct fishplate distance at the joint.

Cheers

Godders
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7th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2020 17:25
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from:
roythebus
Aldington Frith, Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom

 

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Use the shuffle timbers facility. It lets you move them sideways, lengthways and remove them. I can't remember where it is, but it's there somewhere.
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8th message | this message only posted: 7 Oct 2020 22:27
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Please do not send requests for help direct to me via email or PM.

Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: I really appreciated the video. However, you stopped just short of the point that would really make me happy, sorting out the sleepering where the track joins the turnout. The first sleeper of the plain tracks leaving the turnout overlap and I can't see an obvious way to move the sleepers, without overlap of the other track and maintaining the correct fishplate distance at the joint.
Hi Godders,

I wish I had a pound for every time I've been asked about this. :?

The short answer is that there isn't an answer. The only way to find out is to go and take a photograph of the actual prototype turnout which you are modelling.

Prompted by your question, I have spent the day looking at drawings. I'm no wiser. Some drawings don't make sense, some drawings even by the same railway company contradict each other. The REA designs go only as far as the D timber at 2ft-6in spacings and beyond that it depends on the price of kippers.

There are so many variables -- the crossing angle; the style of turnout timbering; the class of traffic over the diverging routes; the willingness of the company to pay the extra cost of long timbers; for yards and sidings the availability of serviceable used material.

However, there are two clear cases -- 1. both vee legs the same length; 2. the splice rail longer or shorter than the point rail, so that the vee joints are staggered.

Most drawings, and most tabulated data, show case 1, and that design and data is in Templot. For years I assumed case 2 was far less common, mostly favoured by the NER and LNER. But looking at photos now I'm not so sure. Templot doesn't directly cater for case 2, other than by using partial templates.

For the next program update I have already implemented new options to adjust individually the position of the exit joints in the stock rails, see:

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3718&forum_id=1

I'm now minded to do the same for the vee rails. Or at least to look at the idea. It's a more complex change because it affects the peg positions and the geometry of branch tracks and split exits.

So I'm not going to answer your question until I have done that, or not done it, and got the the next program update released. There are a lot of other changes in it and it is time I got on with it. Anything I write now will need a re-write afterwards so I would just be wasting my time and spreading future confusion.

cheers,

Martin.

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9th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2020 03:22
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Thanks Martin,

Your answer has actually restored my confidence. I thought I was missing something.

Cheers

Godders
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10th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2020 10:07
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Post your questions on the forum where everyone can see them and add helpful replies.
Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: Your answer has actually restored my confidence. I thought I was missing something.
Hi Godders,

That last video clip may have been a bit misleading. I said the siding track was a cattle dock siding. It would have been better to have used a running line for the rolling rails demo.

In lightly used yards, depots and sidings, the usual rules about rail joints and sleeper spacings often don't apply. Almost anything goes. There is no need for standard rail lengths to be used, or for the joints to be opposite one another, or for the joints to be closely supported by the adjacent sleepers. The only fixed rule is that the chairs at a rail joint must be far enough apart to leave room for a fishplate. And even then short 2-bolt fishplates may be used instead of the normal 4-bolt.

Rail joints are the weakest part of any track, and in running lines it is important that they are correctly constructed to the drawings, properly maintained, and don't present any difficulty at renewal time in being replaced with new standard track panels.

In a great many turnouts the main road is a running line, but the diverging turnout road is not. Which means that the main-road exit joints need to match the drawings as closely as possible. But the gang have more freedom to assemble the turnout-side exit to fit the site and use the available materials.

During and after WW2, timber was in short supply and the use of long timbers in renewals was avoided as much as possible. This means that more use was made of ordinary sleepers where it was feasible, even where the drawing showed long timbers. Renewals typically last 20-30 years, longer on secondary and branch lines, which may explain why bullhead photos from the popular BR period often show such a hotch-potch of turnout timbering.

cheers,

Martin.

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11th message | this message only posted: 8 Oct 2020 14:23
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from:
Graham Long
 

 

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I tried the method mentioned by roythebus.I am not copying over a drawn plan. I have a very rough plan but I will be building my track plan template by template.
I made a new turnout template and extended the approach road to a suitable length as was suggested. I have adjusted the curvature to that that I wanted for the turnout and exit. However, I found that the swell function only changed the curvature for the whole template i.e. Turnout and extended approach road. I needed the turnout and the approach road to be on different radii. I found I needed to make a split before I could independantly change the approach road which is basically the same as I had achieved by making a a plaintrack template and a turnout and joining them. Is there something I have missed?
Regards
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12th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2020 02:25
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from:
Graham Long
 

 

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Martin

Is it possible to get access to the contents of the live session that you referred to?
I have got a new turnout template and extended the approach by a 300mm. I have set the transition to 0. However, I cannot move the transition zone to where I want it. That is the point where the extended approach section joins the turnout. I only have 4 options of moving the transition zone i.e, move to start or end of template or start or end to peg. Where am I going wrong?

Regards
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13th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2020 03:00
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Graham Long wrote: Is it possible to get access to the contents of the live session that you referred to?

Hi Graham,

Sure, but it doesn't deal with transition curves.

Go to this page and click the CLIP links:

 https://templot.com/companion/live_screen_archive.php

Use the mouse actions to adjust transition curves:

1. press the ] key or SHIFT+CTRL+F4, reduce the transition length to zero.

2. press the [ key or SHIFT+CTRL+F3, move it to wherever you want it.

See this page for more information about transition curves:

 https://templot.com/companion/transition_curves.php

I'm struggling to answer your questions because I get the impression you are missing something basic about Templot. :? This old video may help:

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=QBDJMDgdiC7PwRqLS2U3jg2

I will try to do a live session soon where you can ask questions in the chat room as I go along. The live sessions are at:

 https://templot.com/companion/live_screen.php

But just at the moment I desperately want to get the next program update finished and released.

cheers,

Martin.

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14th message | this message only posted: 9 Oct 2020 17:46
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from:
Martin Wynne
West Of The Severn, United Kingdom



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Godfrey Earnshaw wrote: Your answer has actually restored my confidence. I thought I was missing something.

Hi Godders,

You may have noticed a bug when using a timbered exit -- the closed-up joint spacing is missing:




I have fixed this in the next program update:



In the meantime, if you use the exit-timbered option, the timbers beyond the joint need to be shoved back.

(There is no problem with the normal exit-sleepered option.)

cheers,

Martin.

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15th message | this message only posted: 10 Oct 2020 07:04
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from:
Godfrey Earnshaw
Crawley, United Kingdom

 

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Hi Martin,

Thank you

cheers

Godders
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