Templot Club Archive 2007-2020                             

topic: 752Saving user preferences
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posted: 5 Mar 2009 09:28

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Dear all,

Bruce Wilson wrote:
However, I do like the suggestion made of having Templot remember the last user settings.

OK, I give in. :D

I have never understood the importance of saving user preferences. I seldom use the same ones twice, and compared with an hour on Templot and hundreds or even thousands of mouse clicks in a session, half a dozen clicks at the start to change a few settings seem insignificant.

Especially compared with the great advantage of starting from a known repeatable condition every time -- which also makes it much easier for me to provide user support.

But I've been asked for saved preferences so often that I give in. :) In the next pug I will include the option to save some of your settings. But I need to know which ones -- I can't do every single thing that might be changed in Templot (although I can add more in each subsequent pug).

So if you would like to reply to this with some of the things you would want saved between sessions, we can compile a short list of say two dozen settings for inclusion. We can take it as read that you want to bypass the start-up dialogs, as far as that can be managed.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 5 Mar 2009 15:41

from:

JFS
 
United Kingdom

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For me...... Scale and Gauge

Regards,

Howard

posted: 5 Mar 2009 16:22

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Martin Wynne wrote:
OK, I give in. :D

snipped......

But I've been asked for saved preferences so often that I give in. :) In the next pug I will include the option to save some of your settings. But I need to know which ones -- I can't do every single thing that might be changed in Templot (although I can add more in each subsequent pug).

So if you would like to reply to this with some of the things you would want saved between sessions, we can compile a short list of say two dozen settings for inclusion. We can take it as read that you want to bypass the start-up dialogs, as far as that can be managed.
Martin:

I would like to see scale and gauge setting remembered if possible.  I don't know about others but I use Templot for S7 and O14 and mostly S7.  Having Templot remember that would help me since the time between sessions is generally long and I forget for a bit what I have to do.

I suspect most other users only are working in one scale and gauge combination so it may be useful to them as well.

Another possibility would be to have the gauge/scale dialogue box open when Templot starts so the choices are right in front of you.  Would that be easier to implement?

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario



posted: 5 Mar 2009 16:26

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin

I've only just encountered this discussion so this may be a naive suggestion. In a certain sense the last settings are saved and are restorable because there is the option of loading the last project being worked on. Is there a way of simply loading the settings from the last project without loading any templates? If so would adding a "restore last settings" option at that point do the trick?

cheers
Nigel

posted: 5 Mar 2009 18:05

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Is there a way of simply loading the settings from the last project without loading any templates?
Hi Nigel,

Answer "yes" to restore the previous templates, and then press CTRL+DELETE (that's main > clear all templates menu item.) Press ENTER on the confirm dialog.

This is also the way to save Gauge and Scale.

Press the HOME key to see the control template with the restored settings (matching the last template which was loaded).

regards,

Martin.

posted: 5 Mar 2009 18:18

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

Gosh! Democracy still seems to have a place in society. Well done!

For me.

Printer options.

Change the default on track names to 'no track names'

Scale/gauge

But most of all, the Generator settings. To have to remove 6-7 ticks, with having to open the drop down every single time, is the most frustrating part of Templot. When I use Templot I do not want radial end marks, outline extension marks, timber centre lines, timber numbering, timber infill, 81 6" marks on 9' sleepers. It is bad enough that I have to expend time doing it once. But when I open the same file another time, I have to do this all over again? Why cannot each file save its own attributes?

And what about removing the nanny state, irritating, time wasting Handy Hints? And 'Refresh option' screen, i.e click on 'Workpad' nand start work immediately. (Come to think of it, why not have the ability to default to the workpad when clicking on the Templot icon)?

Regards

Brian Lewis

posted: 5 Mar 2009 18:19

from:

Richard Spratt
 
Stockton-upon-Tees - United Kingdom

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User settings to remember:
     . that I've clicked "continue" last time for the screen fonts message at start up.
     . that I've clicked "normal OFF screen refresh mode" before
   
 sorry I can't think of any others at the moment, bu tI know I have in the past.

Richard



posted: 5 Mar 2009 19:31

from:

David Catton
 
Chesterfield - United Kingdom

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I was fortunate enough to use the original "Windows" system on the Xerox 8000 series of desktop computers in the 1980s. Unlike the later copies on Macintosh and Windows systems, Xerox engineers insisted that the same drop-down menus and mouse actions were employed on all applications be it document creation, spreadsheet, slide presentation, database or anything else. This meant you could go away on holiday for several weeks and pick up where you left off without having to think what you were doing.

(It's interesting to note that when Apple sued Microsoft for copying "their" window interface, the case was thrown out because Microsoft successfully demonstrated that Apple had lifted the fundamentals from Xerox and the underlying ideas were not theirs anyway.)

Because Templot does not follow this now almost universal approach (for better or worse), I find it very difficult to even get started with it after over 25 years of using a style of window interface that is common to everything else I do on my PC.

No wonder anyone forgets the sequence of key/mouse strokes or menu options between sessions.

If ever Martin can be persuaded to move Templot closer to the Windows style of interface, I will be delighted and I am confident his user base would develop exponentially.

But I will not hold my breath . . .

Templot is a remarkable tool for those who have the patience to cross the boundary to its inner mysteries and I only wish there was enough life ahead of me so I could be one of them.

Cheers,

David C

posted: 5 Mar 2009 19:42

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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David Catton wrote:
Xerox engineers insisted that the same drop-down menus and mouse actions were employed on all applications be it document creation, spreadsheet, slide presentation, database or anything else.
Hi David,

Those are all text-based business applications. Windows is primarily designed for business applications. Templot isn't a business application and isn't text-based.

What you are saying is like saying "I can't learn to drive a steam locomotive because the controls aren't the same as those in a helicopter".

It's horses for courses. Templot is the way it is because it's the best way to design railway track.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 5 Mar 2009 21:36

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Gosh! Democracy still seems to have a place in society. Well done!
It's not democracy, it's ear-ache! :)

For me. Printer options.
Which ones? Not everything can be set up in advance until Templot has read the data from the printer. For example a user preference for colour printing is meaningless if the available printer is black and white only.

Change the default on track names to 'no track names'
OK.

Scale/gauge
Scale/gauge isn't a user preference, it's a design setting specific to each template. It's saved in the .box file. I can't put it in the user preferences. It might be possible to have a separate set of design preferences (represented in a master template), and you could then have a user option to "use master template at startup" (which option could be included in the user preferences).

However, I do think the existing mechanism is far simpler and easier to understand -- load your previous work and you get the corresponding gauge/scale copied into the control template. If you didn't want your previous work, just delete it.

But most of all, the Generator settings. To have to remove 6-7 ticks, with having to open the drop down every single time, is the most frustrating part of Templot. When I use Templot I do not want radial end marks, outline extension marks, timber centre lines, timber numbering, timber infill, 8'-6" marks on 9' sleepers.
I can put the generator settings in the user preferences. But I'm not sure you are using the generator as intended. If you don't want those features on the screen, instead of using the generator, turn those features off at pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail... menu item. They are all on one dialog, you don't have to keep selecting a menu. I can put those in the user preferences too.

But when I open the same file another time, I have to do this all over again? Why cannot each file save its own attributes?
Because it's a data file, it's not a document. If such things were in the data file, what happens when you add a second or third file at the same time?

And what about removing the nanny state, irritating, time wasting Handy Hints? And 'Refresh option' screen, i.e click on 'Workpad' and start work immediately. (Come to think of it, why not have the ability to default to the workpad when clicking on the Templot icon)?
One man's irritating hint is another man's life-saver. You have said that you want more Help docs. But when Help is provided, you don't want it? Most of them can be suppressed for the remainder of the session. I'm going to look again at the start-up, but it's only one measly click. I just don't get the problem. :?

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 07:54

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Sorry these aren't the right names as I don't have Templot in front of me, but:
    Pad Colors
    Template Font (colour, face, size, etc.)
    Scroll option
I'm not bothered about the scale/guage as I only set the once per project (just re-loading the project does that.)

Although I do agree with the change of start up - I don't have to click several times to get into Word for example. (and they are all Windows applications when all said and done.)

HIH
Last edited on 6 Mar 2009 07:56 by richard_t
posted: 6 Mar 2009 08:08

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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richard_t wrote:
Template Font (colour, face, size, etc.)
Hi Richard,

Which font do you mean? On the screen -- template names, timber numbers, grid numbering? On the printed templates -- timber numbers, grid numbering?

Something else?

regards,

Martin.



posted: 6 Mar 2009 08:54

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
richard_t wrote:
Template Font (colour, face, size, etc.)
Hi Richard,

Which font do you mean? On the screen -- template names, timber numbers, grid numbering? On the printed templates -- timber numbers, grid numbering?

Something else?

regards,

Martin.


Sorry - I meant Template Names on screen - I don't change any of the others you've mentioned.

Thanks.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 09:02

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
So if you would like to reply to this with some of the things you would want saved between sessions, we can compile a short list of say two dozen settings for inclusion.
Every time I load background shapes, I change the font/colours so the lines are of width 3 & the colours different from the colours on the printed pages. It would be useful (to me at least) if these could be saved, either in the bgs file or somewhere else.

Howard.



posted: 6 Mar 2009 09:09

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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richard_t wrote:
I don't have to click several times to get into Word for example. (and they are all Windows applications when all said and done.)
Hi Richard,

Well it's all fruit in a bowl, but you don't criticise an orange for not being more like a banana.

You can't design track in Word, and you can't write a letter in Templot. So this frequent assumption that both should somehow work the same way seems very strange to me. :?

Apart from anything else, the usage conditions are very different. Word you might launch and exit a dozen times in an hour. With Templot it's much more likely that you start it once and then leave it running for a whole evening. So a few extra clicks at startup is neither here nor there. In that respect at least it's more like a CAD program.

My real exasperation is that those who want Templot "more like Windows" never explain in detail what they actually want changed. The few suggestions that have been made invariably involve a significant reduction in functionality, and I'm not prepared to do that.

If someone can tell me the standard Windows method to adjust the length of a transition zone while closely watching co-incidence on the radial centres -- I'll do it. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 09:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Howard wrote:
Every time I load background shapes, I change the font/colours so the lines are of width 3 & the colours different from the colours on the printed pages. It would be useful (to me at least) if these could be saved, either in the bgs file or somewhere else.

OK -- that's two more for the list. Thanks Howard.

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 09:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Bruce Wilson wrote:
Another possibility would be to have the gauge/scale dialogue box open when Templot starts so the choices are right in front of you. Would that be easier to implement?
Hi Bruce,

It would be, but then that's one more dialog to be clicked on startup -- the number of which is already the source of many complaints.

Templot does remember your gauge and scale -- just reload your previous work. If you didn't actually want it, just delete all of it (CTRL+DELETE). You won't lose the gauge and scale (or several other reloaded settings) in the control template, so you can start a fresh design with your preferred settings intact. (Assuming they were in the last template loaded).

I can't put gauge and scale in the user preferences because it is a template setting -- every template can have a different gauge and scale if you wish. Multiple scales in one plan isn't much needed, but frequently you might have more than one track gauge.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 10:21

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
{== Gosh! Democracy still seems to have a place in society. Well done! ==}

It's not democracy, it's ear-ache! :)
Whatever it is, it is truly welcomed by this user.

{== For me. Printer options. ==}

Which ones? Not everything can be set up in advance until Templot has read the data from the printer. For example a user preference for colour printing is meaningless if the available printer is black and white only.
Now I know the term 'Windows' is a red rag to a bull to you and some others on this list, but I can get two options

1. Fast print. Clicking this prints the entire file using the default printer, or the printer I have allocated, the print tray, paper size and aspect and the print quality.

2. Print. Clicking this brings up a list of available printers. By selecting one I get the properties drop down, select what I want and print.

What I had in mind for Templot, was the elimination of the time wasting strokes - 'Is the a xxx printer?' 'Has it been calibrated ?'. 'Do you want to load the calibrations?' and most of the the slightly insulting 'This is a colour printer. Are you sure you want to print in black and white?'

{== Change the default on track names to 'no track names' ==}

OK.
Brilliant. So often when I access a members submitted track plan, it is obliterated by names.

{== Scale/gauge ==}

Scale/gauge isn't a user preference, it's a design setting specific to each template. It's saved in the .box file. I can't put it in the user preferences. It might be possible to have a separate set of design preferences (represented in a master template), and you could then have a user option to "use master template at startup" (which option could be included in the user preferences).
I do not understand, but accept your answer.

{== But most of all, the Generator settings. To have to remove 6-7 ticks, with having to open the drop down every single time, is the most frustrating part of Templot. When I use Templot I do not want radial end marks, outline extension marks, timber centre lines, timber numbering, timber infill, 8'-6" marks on 9' sleepers. ==}

I can put the generator settings in the user preferences. But I'm not sure you are using the generator as intended. If you don't want those features on the screen, instead of using the generator, turn those features off at | pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail... | menu item. They are all on one dialog, you don't have to keep selecting a menu. I can put those in the user preferences too.
Oh! I have never gone into this section. Truly all software is limited by your own knowledge, Templot more than most. It is a question of time - you either spend time learning the depths of the program, (which you probably forget if you do not use the programme frequently), or else you get and draw plans the best way you can.

But can this option be a permanent set and forget option.

{== But when I open the same file another time, I have to do this all over again? Why cannot each file save its own attributes? ==}

Because it's a data file, it's not a document. If such things were in the data file, what happens when you add a second or third file at the same time?
Again, I do not understand why this is so, but accept your answer.

{== And what about removing the nanny state, irritating, time wasting Handy Hints? And 'Refresh option' screen, i.e click on 'Workpad' and start work immediately. (Come to think of it, why not have the ability to default to the workpad when clicking on the Templot icon)? ==}

One man's irritating hint is another man's life-saver. You have said that you want more Help docs. But when Help is provided, you don't want it? Most of them can be suppressed for the remainder of the session. I'm going to look again at the start-up, but it's only one measly click. I just don't get the problem. :?
They are not help in my book.

One other thing I forgot. Could we please work to removing the word 'today' - as in 'Please do not ask me again today'?

Regards

Brian Lewis

Carrs - C+L Finescale.
finescale.org.uk

posted: 6 Mar 2009 10:29

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
You can't design track in Word, and you can't write a letter in Templot. So this frequent assumption that both should somehow work the same way seems very strange to me. :?

Martin, surely you are confusing 'what they do' 'with how they work'. Now I spend probably 80% of my computer time in MS Access. This is significantly different from say Excel or Word, but all three have a common method of operation. So, if you can use one, you should encounter no problems in using another.

It is easy to sneer at Windows, but it is the world standard. For that reason alone, other software should make more than a passing nod to it.

Regards

Brian Lewis

posted: 6 Mar 2009 10:40

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
You can't design track in Word, and you can't write a letter in Templot. So this frequent assumption that both should somehow work the same way seems very strange to me. :?

Martin, surely you are confusing 'what they do' 'with how they work'. Now I spend probably 80% of my computer time in MS Access. This is significantly different from say Excel or Word, but all three have a common method of operation. So, if you can use one, you should encounter no problems in using another.

Hi Brian,

I do not have any of those programs, so I have only a limited knowledge of how they work. But I truly do not understand how a database, a spreadsheet, and a word processor can all have "a common method of operation"? What do you mean? What operations are common to all three but significantly missing from Templot? I genuinely do not know.

But what I do notice is that they are all concerned with the management of text.

Templot isn't.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 11:03

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Blimey - I leave my computer for five minutes and come back to a barrage!

Generator settings are a must to be saved.  A lot of the things there I just don't want to see most of the time.  I'd also like the grid settings to be saved as a user preference rather than in each individual box file - I always use a 0.5ft grid.

I understand the point about Scale/Gauge (being a fan of mixed gauge!) but it would be nice if Templot could start in a default gauge of choice - P4 in my case.  If I then wanted individual templates at a different gauge I just change them as normal.

The real=>timbering options would be a good one to save as well.

I'm sure there are others, but I tend to use most programs in a default mode to save having to faff about if I ever need to reinstall them!

If you really do go ahead with this, it might be an idea to add some sort of "restore default" button so that if you need to help someone you can get them back to known settings.

Cheers

posted: 6 Mar 2009 11:09

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Brian
1. Fast print. Clicking this prints the entire file using the default printer, or the printer I have allocated, the print tray, paper size and aspect and the print quality.
Would you really want this for Templot?  One click and out come millions of sheets of A4 :D


posted: 6 Mar 2009 11:27

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
I'd also like the grid settings to be saved as a user preference rather than in each individual box file
Hi Paul,

Yes, that's where they should be. Putting them in the .box file was a short-term kludge.

I understand the point about Scale/Gauge (being a fan of mixed gauge!) but it would be nice if Templot could start in a default gauge of choice - P4 in my case. If I then wanted individual templates at a different gauge I just change them as normal.

The real=>timbering options would be a good one to save as well.
That's also template-specific like gauge and scale -- so it can't go in user preferences.

I'm minded to implement a "master template" which you can create containing your desired settings for the startup template, including gauge/scale etc. Then a user option to load it as the control template at startup instead of loading the previous session or starting with a B-6 in T-55.

There will have to be a big flashing banner saying "You are in Gauge 1" or whatever, because it is too easy to do a lot of work in the wrong gauge. (That's why Templot starts up by default in the fictional T-55 gauge.)

However, I don't think I can do all this in the next interim pug. It will have to wait for the subsequent one.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 12:03

from:

davelong
 
 

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I've read this thread over the past day or so and I'm sorry but these changes that you guys seem to be demanding really do smack of lazyness to me. Sorry if this offends, I can see from the way Martin has phrased some of his replies, that he is having to make these changes for change sake. Not necessary in all honesty! So what if you have to click a box a couple of times to get going. If you ask me then this software that Martin has spent a vast chunk of his life devoted to is an extremely powerful application, it's the sort of software that in reality would need months of training on like CAD software. People pay a hell of a lot of money to go on long courses just to learn CAD programs such as Autodesk Autocad. Sure as hell Autocad is built to be 'like windows' products!

I much rather Martin spent his time upgrading the program in the way he sees fit, I'm waiting patiently for the sketchbook upgrade personally, which I'll find a heck of a lot more useful than worrying about whether Martin had taken out 2 extra clicks from boot up.

Has anyone actually asked for anything new? Martin has on several instances above told of ways to do things, that have since been oh but I want than done automatically.

 

I'm off to click some buttons bye

posted: 6 Mar 2009 12:49

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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davelong wrote:
I'm off to click some buttons bye


Thats what we want to do - say goodbye to clicking some buttons.

Howard.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 13:17

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Sorry this has gone OT

davelong wrote:
I much rather Martin spent his time upgrading the program in the way he sees fit, I'm waiting patiently for the sketchbook upgrade personally, which I'll find a heck of a lot more useful than worrying about whether Martin had taken out 2 extra clicks from boot up.

Just to show we are all different, and what a difficult job Martin must have, I'd rather he *didn't* concentrate on the Sketch feature but did do some more on track features, such as irregular diamonds for example, so it doesn't take the best part of an hour to do it by hand. I'm sure there are other, what I'd consider core features, but it's those blessed diamonds that get me!

Just my penny's worth

Richard.
Last edited on 6 Mar 2009 13:18 by richard_t
posted: 6 Mar 2009 13:57

from:

davelong
 
 

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richard_t wrote:
Sorry this has gone OT

davelong wrote:
I much rather Martin spent his time upgrading the program in the way he sees fit, I'm waiting patiently for the sketchbook upgrade personally, which I'll find a heck of a lot more useful than worrying about whether Martin had taken out 2 extra clicks from boot up.

Just to show we are all different, and what a difficult job Martin must have, I'd rather he *didn't* concentrate on the Sketch feature but did do some more on track features, such as irregular diamonds for example, so it doesn't take the best part of an hour to do it by hand. I'm sure there are other, what I'd consider core features, but it's those blessed diamonds that get me!

Just my penny's worth

Richard.

 

I wasn't actually asking him to concentrate on that feature, from the first line of mine that you quoted 'as he sees fit', is more than enough for me. Plus I did say I'm waiting patiently.

Dave

posted: posted: 6 Mar 2009 14:00

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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richard_t wrote
Just to show we are all different, and what a difficult job Martin must have, I'd rather he *didn't* concentrate on the Sketch feature but did do some more on track features, such as irregular diamonds for example, so it doesn't take the best part of an hour to do it by hand. I'm sure there are other, what I'd consider core features, but it's those blessed diamonds that get me!
Hi Richard,

Thanks for your comments.

It is difficult to know where best to spend my time. The irregular diamonds are long overdue and should perhaps be at the top of the list. But it involves a lot of re-working in the generator, which then needs some rigorous testing to be sure that nothing is broken. My grey cells are dying off fast :(, and I'm fearful of getting half-way through such a major change and then being interrupted by several days of emails and user support. It's happened before, such that when I get back to the code I'm at a loss to pick up where I left off and have to start again at the beginning.

So before doing that, I want to clear the desk of some other ongoing tasks. The sketchboard is essentially a self-contained mini-program, so any problems there won't impact on the core working of Templot. It is also a very worthwhile addition to Templot. You can't create anything on the sketchboard which you couldn't do by other means, but doing it directly in Templot makes it much easier to change the underlying track plan design as you add the scenic details. Many users enjoy creating "what if" plans, and my feeling is that the sketchboard feature will prove very popular -- with or without irregular diamonds. :)

I've also committed to doing something soon about saving user preferences. Not because I want to do it or think it's really necessary, but simply to silence the constant requests for it.

regards,

Martin.

6 Mar 2009 14:00

from:

Glen Suckling
 
Oswego - New York USA

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Hello Martin,


davelong wrote:

I much rather Martin spent his time upgrading the program in the way he sees fit, I'm waiting patiently for the sketchbook upgrade personally, which I'll find a heck of a lot more useful than worrying about whether Martin had taken out 2 extra clicks from boot up.



I agree wholeheartedly with davelong.

If you are going to change anything at startup I would vote for presetting the scale and gauge but this is really not a big thing.

While we are talking about gauge I normally use 7mm scale on 32mm gauge track (GOG-F). However, I occasionally foray into 1/4 inch scale on 1.25" gauge track (the standard for fine scale O gauge in North America) which is not in your list of scale/gauge combinations. I will horrify the purists now when I say that I run my 7mm locos and stock on 1.25" track and often run 1/4" scale trains on my 32mm track. Both combinations work well. The quarter of a millimeter difference in gauge does not seem to make a difference although we do use gauge widening on sharp curves in the 1.25" gauge track (ie. less than 72" radius).

I normally draw track plans with pencil and paper; sometimes I use 3rd PlanIt. I then use TEMPLOT to create the individual turnout templates for construction use. The most I do is to join a few turnouts together for complex formations. The sketchbook concept therefore sounds especially interesting to me. I look forward to its introduction.

Glen

 

 

 

posted: 6 Mar 2009 14:26

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Glen Suckling wrote
However, I occasionally foray into 1/4 inch scale on 1.25" gauge track (the standard for fine scale O gauge in North America) which is not in your list of scale/gauge combinations.
Hi Glen,

Thanks for that. We've got 0-NMRA on 1.25" track gauge at 9/32"/ft. Is that wrong? It's been there for 10 years without anyone mentioning it. :?

At 1/4"/ft (1:48) there is only P-48. I will add 1:48 on 1.25"

Of course, it's easy to create a custom gauge/scale setting for any size. The list of pre-sets is just for convenience.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 6 Mar 2009 14:59

from:

Bruce Wilson
 
Barrie - Ontario Canada

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Glen Suckling wrote
However, I occasionally foray into 1/4 inch scale on 1.25" gauge track (the standard for fine scale O gauge in North America) which is not in your list of scale/gauge combinations.
Hi Glen,

Thanks for that. We've got 0-NMRA on 1.25" track gauge at 9/32"/ft. Is that wrong? It's been there for 10 years without anyone mentioning it. :?

At 1/4"/ft (1:48) there is only P-48. I will add 1:48 on 1.25"

Of course, it's easy to create a custom gauge/scale setting for any size. The list of pre-sets is just for convenience.

regards,

Martin.
Martin:

According to NMRA Standard S-1.2 Standards for Scale  O scale is 1:48 (1/4" =1') with a track gauge of 1.25"

NMRA Standard S-1.1 Standards for Protomodels has P48 (1:48 or 1/4 = 1') with a track gauge min of 1.177" and max of 1.203"

From Glen's description he is using the NMRA O scale standards given in S-1.2.

Therefore no need to change anything except to make sure your O-NMRA is 1/4" = 1 foot for the scale .  I guess that shows not many of your users are modelling in NMRA O :D

All of the NMRA Standards are on-line at

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, Ontario

posted: 6 Mar 2009 17:28

from:

John Preston
 
Lethbridge - Canada

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I must give many kudos to Martin for developing Templot to its current state.moz-screenshot.jpgmoz-screenshot.jpg  [url=javascript:emoticon(':thumb:',%20'images/emoticons/thumb_smiley.gif')]document.write('[/url]');I have learned so much by watching his videos, following the tutorials and even making some  tutorials for my edification.  I see Templot as a tool for our personal enjoyment in track design, not necessarily an end in itself that can draw any track imagined with all the wing rails, check rail etc in the right place for some obscure logging railroad in the Urals.  For construction purposes I can put in the appropriate check rails etc. without having to have them drawn in on the template.
If I am not mistaken, most of what Templot does is based on GWR practice at some time in the past.  This may not be strictly in accordance with other railway practices now or long ago, particularly outside the UK.  Martin has given us the tools in Templot to make changes as we see fit in timbering and other design aspects.  It is our task to determine the particular practices of our chosen railway if we wish to model track that closely.
We all appreciate his desire to put more features into Templot, and that from time to time he asks for ideas for those additions.  He, as developer of the software, is cognizant of what is both possible and practical to put into any upgrades.
To compare its operation with Microsoft products that have a large budget and staff for development and have undergone many upgrades over the years to what one man in his spare time (what spare time?) has accomplished is a little off track.  Please remember that the cost of acquiring the Templot Licence is far less than what you would pay for other softwares, including Microsoft products, and that Martin has not asked for any additional fees with each new PUG.
Again, to Martin, many thanks for your efforts to please us all.  There are so many option /choices to be made in designing trackwork I do not see how it is possible to include more without having additional menus for them.
John Preston
Lethbridge, Alberta


posted: 6 Mar 2009 17:46

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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davelong wrote:
I've read this thread over the past day or so and I'm sorry but these changes that you guys seem to be demanding really do smack of lazyness to me. Sorry if this offends, I can see from the way Martin has phrased some of his replies, that he is having to make these changes for change sake. Not necessary in all honesty! So what if you have to click a box a couple of times to get going. If you ask me then this software that Martin has spent a vast chunk of his life devoted to is an extremely powerful application, it's the sort of software that in reality would need months of training on like CAD software. People pay a hell of a lot of money to go on long courses just to learn CAD programs such as Autodesk Autocad. Sure as hell Autocad is built to be 'like windows' products!

I much rather Martin spent his time upgrading the program in the way he sees fit, I'm waiting patiently for the sketchbook upgrade personally, which I'll find a heck of a lot more useful than worrying about whether Martin had taken out 2 extra clicks from boot up.

Has anyone actually asked for anything new? Martin has on several instances above told of ways to do things, that have since been oh but I want than done automatically.

 

I'm off to click some buttons bye
I agree with David.  Let's get the program doing things it cannot already do.  My CAD program is far, far more opaque in its operation than Templot and the CAD is a 'Windows' environment program. If you want a really difficult and (to me) non-intuitive, program, try the Gimp.

In the early days I found some the Templot's so called quirks irritating, until I took the trouble to learn something about track and how the program operates.  Crying out for a 'Windows' type environment is not only (as David says) laziness, but is counter productive since it would severley limit what can be done with the program.  Martin's analogy of the the document and data file is correct.

So for me, there is no special pleading to save me a click or three.  I want to be able to make complex pointwork.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 6 Mar 2009 21:16

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote

I'm minded to implement a "master template" which you can create containing your desired settings for the startup template, including gauge/scale etc. Then a user option to load it as the control template at startup instead of loading the previous session or starting with a B-6 in T-55.
Martin

I like this idea. Just wondering, would it be much extra work to allow the user to create as many master templates as they wish, so that as someone develops more than one requirement (possibly in a different gauge or scale) they can have separate bespoke settings? So that at startup they might have a list of options such as:-

Templot default
My P4 GWR pre-1920
...

Of course they wouldn't need the list if they hadn't created any master templates.

cheers
Nigel

posted: 6 Mar 2009 21:41

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Raymond wrote:
I agree with David.  Let's get the program doing things it cannot already do.  My CAD program is far, far more opaque in its operation than Templot and the CAD is a 'Windows' environment program. If you want a really difficult and (to me) non-intuitive, program, try the Gimp.

In the early days I found some the Templot's so called quirks irritating, until I took the trouble to learn something about track and how the program operates.  Crying out for a 'Windows' type environment is not only (as David says) laziness, but is counter productive since it would severley limit what can be done with the program.  Martin's analogy of the the document and data file is correct.

So for me, there is no special pleading to save me a click or three.  I want to be able to make complex pointwork.

Regards

Raymond
Totally agree. It "might" be possible to have something looking a bit more like Windows by, for example, seeing if the control menu could somehow be morphed into a File menu, but I'm pretty sure it can't without significant limitations, if at all. The fact is that any worthwhile non-Office type application has its own distinctive methods which need effort to get hold of; the simplest may be able to make things largely intuitive, but any degree of complexity requires a learning process, in comparison with which so-called Windows features are fairly trivial. I've an old version of TurboCAD I do things with occasionally; I find Templot as a whole is easier, because it's been designed by one person with a unified vision of how the fairly involved requirement should work.

I've not yet designed any sort of slip or even diamond, but at some stage I probably will, and when I do I want Templot at its best in helping me do that. I also think a facility like Sketchbook is enormously attractive in enabling one to produce something which will look like the final overall goal, and parallels the existing detailed template production facilities very nicely. These are the things which matter. I suspect that many who want "Windows facilities" are simply not approaching the learning process the right way.

cheers
Nigel

posted: 6 Mar 2009 21:58

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote
"
I'm minded to implement a "master template" which you can create containing your desired settings for the startup template, including gauge/scale etc. Then a user option to load it as the control template at startup instead of loading the previous session or starting with a B-6 in T-55.
"


As someone who (at least in theory) models the GWR in the late 1920s - early 1930s I also like the sound of this. A standard length for plain track was 44ft 6in and there were other "non-standard" GWR standard things.

John

posted: 6 Mar 2009 22:41

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Just wondering, would it be much extra work to allow the user to create as many master templates as they wish, so that as someone develops more than one requirement (possibly in a different gauge or scale) they can have separate bespoke settings? So that at startup they might have a list of options such as:-

Templot default
My P4 GWR pre-1920

Hi Nigel,

But you can already do all that. :)

That's what library templates are for. Just create a .box file with your library templates in it. Load the file, select the template you want on the storage box, click the button to copy it into the control template, and off you go designing a new layout with it:

storage_box_library.pngstorage_box_library.png

The "master template" idea simply automates that process at startup with a single click. If you introduce a range of options, there is no advantage over the existing methods.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 00:59

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Hi Martin

But that's the point, doing it with a simple click at startup. If you're going to allow a click to select a single master template, as opposed to other possible courses of action, then it should be possible for a single click to select from one of several master templates. The library method as I understand it involves a number of different steps and possible some digging around to find the template you want to use. It's probably just as easy setting all the options from scratch.

cheers
Nigel

posted: 7 Mar 2009 07:52

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
But that's the point, doing it with a simple click at startup. If you're going to allow a click to select a single master template, as opposed to other possible courses of action, then it should be possible for a single click to select from one of several master templates.
Hi Nigel,

We seem to be getting in a muddle. :?

There are two separate issues here:

1. Restoring a user's program preferences on startup. Program preferences are things such as the grid settings, the colour of the storage box window, etc. At present we have no mechanism at all for this. That's what this topic is about.

2. Getting started with the desired track design settings in the control template. Template settings are things such as gauge and scale, timbering style, etc. There are existing functions for this. Like all things they could be improved, but they have proved adequate in practice.

Let's stick to 1. for the present -- I want to implement a solution quickly so that I can get on with other things. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 08:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote
It "might" be possible to have something looking a bit more like Windows by, for example, seeing if the control menu could somehow be morphed into a File menu
Hi Nigel,

The File menu is already there -- it's on the storage box window. Likewise an Edit menu. Those looking for a more Windows-like environment should open the storage box on startup instead of going straight to the workpad. :)

The storage box button is in the middle on the program panel for that purpose. Perhaps it would quell a lot of the criticism if I simply made that button the default click?

There is also a File menu on the program panel.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 09:54

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Here's a possible approach. :)

As you work through the program, some of the dialogs can have an additional tick-box "add my response to my preferences". If you tick the box before clicking a response, your response will be used instead of displaying that dialog for the remainder of the session. And then saved at the end of it:

preferences_add.pngpreferences_add.png

Other settings such as the grid options will be added to the preferences automatically.

On the next startup, if a preferences file exists you will have a choice to start using the default settings (GO button), or to start using your saved preferences (GO using my preferences button). If that button is displayed it will also be the default button on the ENTER key:

preferences_startup.pngpreferences_startup.png

Options to save/replace/delete the preferences file, and have more than one such file, will be added to the program menu on the program panel.

Comments welcome.

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 11:10

from:

Alan Turner
 
Dudley - United Kingdom

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I started looking at this thread thinking, Yes I want to save user preferences but as I have read Martin's comments I realise much of what I was wanting is a reflection of my, still, lack of understanding of the nether regions of Templot. Library templates in particular!

However if I could set the opening template gauge that would be useful. It's just that I sometimes forget, do some design and then realise it is still in T55 gauge and when I change the gauge to P4 I loose all I have done. So if I could have that I would be satisfied.

Alan

 

posted: 7 Mar 2009 11:46

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Alan Turner wrote:
It's just that I sometimes forget, do some design and then realise it is still in T55 gauge and when I change the gauge to P4 I loose all I have done.
Hi Alan,

That's the entire reason Templot starts in a fictional gauge. :)

If you are still using T-55 after a few minutes it puts up a warning that you have forgotten to set the gauge.

If it started up in say P4 from a preferences file, it would have no way of knowing (and warning you) that you really wanted to be in EM today. You could do an evening's work before you noticed that you had forgotten to change the gauge. :(

I think the T-55 mechanism is helpful and worth having -- it has saved me a few times. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 12:10

from:

davelong
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote
It "might" be possible to have something looking a bit more like Windows by, for example, seeing if the control menu could somehow be morphed into a File menu

 

Can someone please explain this too me? What on earth do you mean by looking more windows like? There are 12 drop down menus along the top of the program. There is a right click tools menu. It works in windows OS, afterall that is what Windows is an operating system. I don't understand how 'a bit more like windows' is going to improve Templot.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 13:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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davelong wrote:
Can someone please explain this too me? What on earth do you mean by looking more Windows like?
Hi Dave,

That's a question which puzzles me too. Those asking for Templot to be more like Windows never really explain what they mean.

I think they want Templot to use the Windows document model, which is a software convention rather than part of the OS. That means there would be "Open" and "Close" on a "File" menu, and "closing" a file would automatically over-write the previous file. That would be a recipe for disaster in my view, and programs which do use it then have to implement clunky auto-save and backup mechanisms to get round it.

It would also destroy quite a lot of useful functionality in Templot.

We aren't going that way. Not ever. :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Mar 2009 15:17

from:

George Ray
 
United Kingdom

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Martin

I like this idea, but that's because I don't actually have a major problem with the programme as it is. Apart from forgetting to change the fictitious scale until reminded and that's not major just the old grey matter decaying slightly causing an Oh damn moment.

George Ray

posted: 7 Mar 2009 15:24

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote:
But that's the point, doing it with a simple click at startup. If you're going to allow a click to select a single master template, as opposed to other possible courses of action, then it should be possible for a single click to select from one of several master templates.
Hi Nigel,

We seem to be getting in a muddle. :?

There are two separate issues here:

1. Restoring a user's program preferences on startup. Program preferences are things such as the grid settings, the colour of the storage box window, etc. At present we have no mechanism at all for this. That's what this topic is about.

2. Getting started with the desired track design settings in the control template. Template settings are things such as gauge and scale, timbering style, etc. There are existing functions for this. Like all things they could be improved, but they have proved adequate in practice.

Let's stick to 1. for the present -- I want to implement a solution quickly so that I can get on with other things. :)

regards,

Martin.
Hi Martin

Don't think any muddle's with me. I take it by introducing the idea of a master template you are in fact introducing issue 2 above. That's what my response was related to.

Re using a library style approach, when I started out in Templot I thought that, from past experience, adopting that as a method of working was a good idea, i.e. build up a library of useful templates which could be slotted in as appropriate, the train-set approach if you like. In the event, I didn't go in that direction because I found that in practice it was easier to adopt a bespoke approach to each formation and that such an approach fitted in better with Templot's philosophy. However, I do see an advantage in being able to save template settings which can be used for the startup control template in a new project; it not only saves some (small) amount of time, it also increases reliability in the sense that there's less danger of forgetting some particular setting. I take it that this is what your master template idea is. If so I think it's one of those ideas which, if the gain is small in some ways, nevertheless would have a rather larger improvement to the feel of Templot. My impression however was that you were only thinking of one master template; my suggestion was that (when you have time to think seriously about this) that you consider if there's a reasonable way of users having several master templates (yes I know there are other ways of achieving the same effect, but if that's the answer then you don't really need a master template facility at all).

cheers
Nigel

posted: 7 Mar 2009 15:32

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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davelong wrote:

Martin Wynne wrote:
Nigel Brown wrote
It "might" be possible to have something looking a bit more like Windows by, for example, seeing if the control menu could somehow be morphed into a File menu

 

Can someone please explain this too me? What on earth do you mean by looking more windows like? There are 12 drop down menus along the top of the program. There is a right click tools menu. It works in windows OS, afterall that is what Windows is an operating system. I don't understand how 'a bit more like windows' is going to improve Templot.
You're totally right of course. I was trying to guess what upsets people who perceive Templot to be "not Window like". The only thing I could come up with was the fact that the main window didn't have a leading File menu. Maybe those who complain could be a bit more specific.

cheers
Nigel

posted: 7 Mar 2009 17:58

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Nigel Brown wrote:
Don't think any muddle's with me. I take it by introducing the idea of a master template you are in fact introducing issue 2 above. That's what my response was related to.
Hi Nigel,

Sorry, I didn't mean you were in a muddle. I meant me. :?

Earlier I wrote:

"I'm minded to implement a "master template" which you can create containing your desired settings for the startup template, including gauge/scale etc. Then a user option to load it as the control template at startup instead of loading the previous session or starting with a B-6 in T-55.

There will have to be a big flashing banner saying "You are in Gauge 1" or whatever, because it is too easy to do a lot of work in the wrong gauge. (That's why Templot starts up by default in the fictional T-55 gauge.)

However, I don't think I can do all this in the next interim pug. It will have to wait for the subsequent one."


I shouldn't have raised that subject in this topic -- I mentioned it only in response to the requests to save gauge and scale. This topic is about saving the user's program operation preferences. Gauge/scale isn't one of those, it's a track design setting. Any mechanism to save and restore it has to be completely separate from the program preferences. There are existing mechanisms to do it, which I think adequately cover the requirement to have a selection of settings available. The master template idea is a simplified approach to get an instant startup with one particular set of template settings, without requiring the user to do or select anything.

Re using a library style approach, when I started out in Templot I thought that, from past experience, adopting that as a method of working was a good idea, i.e. build up a library of useful templates which could be slotted in as appropriate, the train-set approach if you like.

In the event, I didn't go in that direction because I found that in practice it was easier to adopt a bespoke approach to each formation and that such an approach fitted in better with Templot's philosophy.
That's right, re-using templates as fixed units isn't the best approach in Templot, and isn't necessary -- it's easy to create a new one as required. The idea of library templates is to use a template as a vehicle to save various settings. For example you could have one with 29ft rails in the plain track settings and one with 36ft rails. You then select one or other as required as the starting point for the next template in your track plan.

But for now I want to deal with saving program preferences.

All of which is a round about way of saying -- gauge and scale isn't one of those and can't be saved that way.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 8 Mar 2009 09:56

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Here's a possible approach. :)

As you work through the program, some of the dialogs can have an additional tick-box "add my response to my preferences". If you tick the box before clicking a response, your response will be used instead of displaying that dialog for the remainder of the session. And then saved at the end of it:

preferences_add.pngpreferences_add.png

Other settings such as the grid options will be added to the preferences automatically.

On the next startup, if a preferences file exists you will have a choice to start using the default settings (GO button), or to start using your saved preferences (GO using my preferences button). If that button is displayed it will also be the default button on the ENTER key:

preferences_startup.pngpreferences_startup.png

Options to save/replace/delete the preferences file, and have more than one such file, will be added to the program menu on the program panel.

Comments welcome.

Martin.


As no-one has commented: I'm liking all of this.

Richard.

posted: 8 Mar 2009 10:31

from:

Phil O
 
Plymouth - United Kingdom

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richard_t wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:
Here's a possible approach. :)

As you work through the program, some of the dialogs can have an additional tick-box "add my response to my preferences". If you tick the box before clicking a response, your response will be used instead of displaying that dialog for the remainder of the session. And then saved at the end of it:

preferences_add.pngpreferences_add.png

Other settings such as the grid options will be added to the preferences automatically.

On the next startup, if a preferences file exists you will have a choice to start using the default settings (GO button), or to start using your saved preferences (GO using my preferences button). If that button is displayed it will also be the default button on the ENTER key:

preferences_startup.pngpreferences_startup.png

Options to save/replace/delete the preferences file, and have more than one such file, will be added to the program menu on the program panel.

Comments welcome.

Martin.


As no-one has commented: I'm liking all of this.

Richard.
Hi

I seemed to have missed the original message but I agree with richard

Cheers Phil

posted: 8 Mar 2009 10:50

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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As no-one has commented: I'm liking all of this.


And me.

John
Last edited on 8 Mar 2009 10:51 by John Lewis
posted: 8 Mar 2009 10:56

from:

Jim Guthrie
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Here's a possible approach. :)

As you work through the program, some of the dialogs can have an additional tick-box "add my response to my preferences". If you tick the box before clicking a response, your response will be used instead of displaying that dialog for the remainder of the session. And then saved at the end of it:

preferences_add.pngpreferences_add.png

Other settings such as the grid options will be added to the preferences automatically.

On the next startup, if a preferences file exists you will have a choice to start using the default settings (GO button), or to start using your saved preferences (GO using my preferences button). If that button is displayed it will also be the default button on the ENTER key:

preferences_startup.pngpreferences_startup.png

Options to save/replace/delete the preferences file, and have more than one such file, will be added to the program menu on the program panel.

Comments welcome.
Martin,

That would look like an excellent method to give people what they want.

Jim.

posted: 8 Mar 2009 11:42

from:

Howard
 
United Kingdom

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I like the idea of generating a preferences file & allowing it to be used at start-up.

Might I offer a suggestion - put the Templot version number at the top of the preference file as some sort of comment.

I did this years ago in a program I developed & it saved no end of hassle. It helps when using the preference file in a different version of Templot from the one that generated the preference file. If the behaviour of something changes in the future, it might even be possible to accomodate this.

When new features are added, you also need to allow the new features to be added to the preference file.

Howard.

posted: 8 Mar 2009 17:14

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Howard wrote:
Might I offer a suggestion - put the Templot version number at the top of the preference file as some sort of comment.
Hi Howard,

Here you go. I've retired hurt in the battle with XML and reverted to a simple ini format:

templot_user_preferences=Do not edit or delete this file.
from_templot_version=0.91.d
00-00=2
00-10=152.4
00-20=152.4
00-30=5.5
01-01=0
01-02=1
01-03=0
01-10=6291616
01-20=16711935
01-40=1
....

Only another 500 to go. :(

Time for a cup of tea. :)

Martin.

posted: 9 Mar 2009 23:54

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Hi Martin,

As for what to save in preferences, others here have already covered everything I could think of and much more besides.

However, if you are looking at the startup code, I find that when I say "yes" to reload my last box file and background shapes it always loads the box file but never loads the background shapes.

In my case, the shape file shows my baseboard joins, quite important when positioning turnouts.

And as for how much it is "windows standard",  I spend too much of my life working with Windows. I find Templot refreshingly different in some of its look and feel - so don't give in to Bill Gates and Vive La Difference!! :thumb:

I agree that saving user settings is a significant improvement in usability. I tend to have to dip in and out of Templot as and when time allows, so I'm often starting it up.

However, I feel that track layout functionality should come before any further tinkering with the user interface itself. All IMHO, of course.

Pete


posted: 10 Mar 2009 08:03

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Hi Martin,

Others on here have already covered everything and more that I can think of would be good to save.

One thing, though, if you are looking at the startup code.

When I choose the option to restore the last storage box and background drawing, it always reloads the storage box fine but never reloads the background shapes file.

I use the background shapes file to show my baseboard joins, so I don't put a turnout over the join.

Thanks,

Pete


posted: 10 Mar 2009 08:04

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Apologies for the double post, my first attempt didn't show up for some reason until after I had posted the second attempt - probably my finger trouble!

Pete


posted: 10 Mar 2009 09:32

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Hi Pete,

The background shapes are in separate .bgs file so that you can easily create different track plans on the same baseboards / railway room, and re-use parts of your track plan and/or share it with others without including your baseboards.

To provide an automatic save and restore function on the .bgs files will require a lot of fresh code, and yet another start-up option, so I will leave that out for now. :) There is a "recent files" function on the background shapes which makes it quite fast to find your current file.

I want to look again at the whole background shapes function when the sketchboard is up and running. There is some overlap in those two, and the picture shapes functions need a separate dialog of their own to make them more easily accessible.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 10 Mar 2009 22:50

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Hi Martin,

I've no real problem in having to go and manually reload the background shapes file each time, it's no big deal. I agree that having them stored separately is a good idea.

But if you're going to leave it not reloading the background shapes file at startup, I guess you ought to change the prompt in the startup dialog. At the moment it says:

"Do you want to restore the storage box contents and background drawing from your previous Templot session?"

but if you say "yes", it then only loads the storage box contents and not the background drawing.

Regards,

Pete

posted: 2 Apr 2009 06:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Dear all,

I've just been re-reading this topic and I do seem to have been rather bad-tempered! :)

Sorry about that, but it is actually how I feel and the more I have worked on this over the last few weeks the more apprehensive I have become. I feel that I have been badgered into making changes in Templot against my better judgement.

I seem to be between a rock and a hard place -- if I don't go ahead with this I shall continue to receive emails every few days along the lines of "Why can't Templot save my settings like other Windows programs?". If I do go ahead with it I'm quite convinced that it will cause confusion and difficulty for new / inexperienced / infrequent users of Templot.

I have decided to trust my own judgement, and I have just removed a large chunk of the code which I have been working on recently. A function to save program preferences will remain, but it will require specific user intervention to activate. There will be a nag message that new and inexperienced users are strongly recommended not to do so, and that if you do you are on your own and no user support will be available.

I'm especially concerned about including the generator settings in the saved preferences. I feel that those asking for this aren't using Templot in the way intended. So the inclusion of those will require an additional option click, and yet another nag message!

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 08:24

from:

Raymond
 
Bexhill-on-sea - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Dear all,

I've just been re-reading this topic and I do seem to have been rather bad-tempered! :)

Sorry about that, but it is actually how I feel and the more I have worked on this over the last few weeks the more apprehensive I have become. I feel that I have been badgered into making changes in Templot against my better judgement.

I seem to be between a rock and a hard place -- if I don't go ahead with this I shall continue to receive emails every few days along the lines of "Why can't Templot save my settings like other Windows programs?". If I do go ahead with it I'm quite convinced that it will cause confusion and difficulty for new / inexperienced / infrequent users of Templot.

I have decided to trust my own judgement, and I have just removed a large chunk of the code which I have been working on recently. A function to save program preferences will remain, but it will require specific user intervention to activate. There will be a nag message that new and inexperienced users are strongly recommended not to do so, and that if you do you are on your own and no user support will be available.

I'm especially concerned about including the generator settings in the saved preferences. I feel that those asking for this aren't using Templot in the way intended. So the inclusion of those will require an additional option click, and yet another nag message!

regards,

Martin.
Good for you Martin, it's a great program that does just what it says 'on the can'.  I personally do not want any more bloatware a lá Mr Gate's mob.  Templot loads in seconds, has never crashed and, once I learned how it worked, has allowed me to produce some very complex layouts that looked like the real thing.

Regards

Raymond

posted: 2 Apr 2009 09:28

from:

Stephen Freeman
 
Sandbach - United Kingdom

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I agree with Raymond. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

As far as I am concerned it would be more important to have an easier to use implementation for 3 way turnouts, Double Slips and curved Diamonds (for Double Junctions etc)and possibly outside slips, though that might be a bit much.

But does Templot have to load with a scale/gauge at all? Perhaps a prompt to choose gauge/scale or reload.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 09:51

from:

Alan McMillan
 
Edinburgh - United Kingdom

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I second Raymond's comments Martin, these peripheral extras seem to me to be pandering to laziness, in that for some users, one click of the mouse is what they want because six clicks are unacceptable. This sort of thing is keeping you from refining and expanding the track-making functions of Templot.

Alan McMillan

posted: 2 Apr 2009 10:43

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I've just been re-reading this topic and I do seem to have been rather bad-tempered! :)
I hadn't noticed particularly - so I shouldn't worry about it!

snip .... A function to save program preferences will remain, but it will require specific user intervention to activate. There will be a nag message that new and inexperienced users are strongly recommended not to do so, and that if you do you are on your own and no user support will be available.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as the nag is just the once when you turn on the feature.

I do think that once enabled, a single click on entry to the program "Do you want to restore your saved settings" yes or no (press enter does yes), would be appropriate. If you say no, then it loads as it does at present.

Having done the work on saving preferences, it makes sense to roll that out as a pug, then you can get on with the more important enhancements.

Regards,

Pete

posted: 2 Apr 2009 10:44

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Alan

You wrote:
I second Raymond's comments Martin, these peripheral extras seem to me to be pandering to laziness, in that for some users, one click of the mouse is what they want because six clicks are unacceptable.
I'm afraid I'm a little upset by your suggestion that not wanting extra mouse clicks is laziness.  I suffered from the very real problem of RSI when using a mouse when every click was literally a pain.  I use the past tense because since changing from a mouse to a pen the problem has significantly reduced and is now manageable, but many people suffer from RSI and can't get on with pens.  Every click saved is one less stab of pain!!  Templot is actually a great problem for people that don't like mousey things because virtually everything has keyboard shortcuts - something that many large corporations could well take note of!

Now I know Templot is a hobby program, so if it becomes painful to use I can go onto something else, but that's missing the point.  I bought it to use it!

Cheers



posted: 2 Apr 2009 11:18

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Here we go again. Almost a repeat performance of what Dave Long said a week or two ago.

Folk, who as far as  can see,  who makes no positive contribution to the model railway world that I know of, suggests we are lazy. If you had bothered to read the contributions so far you would have seen that most of them were positive and were aimed at two objectives, i.e. to make Templot easier to understand and to create more time in planning trackwork/ less time fighting the programme.

There is simply no point in adding enhancements to a programme, when probably 90% of the existing users cannot use fully what is existing anyway.


Brian Lewis.

Swissrail wrote:
I second Raymond's comments Martin, these peripheral extras seem to me to be pandering to laziness, in that for some users, one click of the mouse is what they want because six clicks are unacceptable. This sort of thing is keeping you from refining and expanding the track-making functions of Templot.

Alan McMillan


posted: 2 Apr 2009 11:40

from:

richard_t
 
Nr. Spalding, South Holland - United Kingdom

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Blimey - I agree with Brian! :cool:

posted: 2 Apr 2009 12:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
There is simply no point in adding enhancements to a programme, when probably 90% of the existing users cannot use fully what is existing anyway.
Hi Brian,

I thought you wanted to save your preferences? Surely that's an enhancement? It's certainly far from trivial -- I have spent many hours working on it.

This topic is getting rather bad-tempered -- my fault, I know. Let's stick to discussing the practicalities rather than having a slanging match.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 12:27

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Martin,

You know exactly what I mean - you are as bad as me at winding folk up. Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
There is simply no point in adding enhancements to a programme, when probably 90% of the existing users cannot use fully what is existing anyway.
Hi Brian,

I thought you wanted to save your preferences? Surely that's an enhancement? It's certainly far from trivial -- I have spent many hours working on it.

This topic is getting rather bad-tempered -- my fault, I know. Let's stick to discussing the practicalities rather than having a slanging match.

regards,

Martin.


posted: 2 Apr 2009 12:44

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Martin,

Please write out 1000 times:

"I will not rise to the bait when Brian posts to the forum!"  :D

Pete


posted: 2 Apr 2009 13:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Here's a draft of the dialog for the saved preferences:

saved_prefs_dialog.pngsaved_prefs_dialog.png

Comments welcome.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 14:00

from:

Pete Brownlow
 
 

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Looks excellent to me.

It would be useful to know which preferences are being saved, but if the save file is ini format, then it's easy enough to go and look at that to see what has been saved.

Pete




posted: 2 Apr 2009 14:09

from:

davelong
 
 

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Brian Lewis wrote:
Here we go again. Almost a repeat performance of what Dave Long said a week or two ago.

Folk, who as far as  can see,  who makes no positive contribution to the model railway world that I know of, suggests we are lazy. If you had bothered to read the contributions so far you would have seen that most of them were positive and were aimed at two objectives, i.e. to make Templot easier to understand and to create more time in planning trackwork/ less time fighting the programme.

There is simply no point in adding enhancements to a programme, when probably 90% of the existing users cannot use fully what is existing anyway.


Brian Lewis.

Swissrail wrote:
I second Raymond's comments Martin, these peripheral extras seem to me to be pandering to laziness, in that for some users, one click of the mouse is what they want because six clicks are unacceptable. This sort of thing is keeping you from refining and expanding the track-making functions of Templot.

Alan McMillan



Sorry, to disregard the slanging match comment, but all this hard work Martin has put in to save a couple of clicks on start up, because some people find it too much like hard work. I'm sorry but that does smack of laziness to me. I'll apologise only to Paul for such a comment and anyone else who suffers from such horrid things as RSI, I know that that is a very real issue with computer programs these days, so far enough.

In actual fact most of the comments were regarding making Templot more Windows like, and if you'd read my post you'll have noticed that I suggested that Martin get on with writing code for what he sees fit which is the enhancement of the program, to which quite a number of people have agreed with.

I won't comment on your 'no positive contribution to the model railway world' remark as it would not be polite reading for everyone else. So if you'd like to continue dragging my name through it PM me with your 'views'.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 14:10

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Pete Brownlow wrote:
Looks excellent to me.

It would be useful to know which preferences are being saved, but if the save file is ini format, then it's easy enough to go and look at that to see what has been saved.
Hi Pete,

I will provide a list somewhere on the web site. It won't be very clear from the prefs file: :)

templot_user_preferences=| from Templot version 0.91.d
saved_at=| 11:49:40 on 01/04/2009

--------  grid:  --------
00-00i=6
00-10f=50
00-20f=50
00-30b=1

--------  background shapes:  --------
01-01b=1
01-02b=0
01-03b=0
01-10i=6291616
01-20i=16711935
01-30s=| Comic Sans MS
01-31i=12
01-32i=6291616
01-33b=1
01-34b=0
01-35b=0
01-36b=0
01-40b=0

--------  startup dialogs:  --------
02-01i=0
02-05i=0
02-10b=0
02-20b=0
02-30b=0
02-40b=0
02-50b=0
02-60b=0
02-70b=1
02-80b=1
02-90b=0
...
...


Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 14:22

from:

Brian Lewis
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Martin,

I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. Do I assume you have one set of preferences? i.e. a global set, applicable to all files, rather than a preference set applicable to each individual box file?  Even so, it will be a significant leap forward for new and existing users.

All we will need now is a printed User Manual...... :D

Regards - and sincere thanks for listening,

Brian Lewis

posted: 2 Apr 2009 14:52

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

That preferences page looks really good, and I like the way it's easy to get back to a known state.  (If I'm reading "abandon preferences" correctly)  I wish Photoshop could do that!

So, when do we get irregular diamonds? :D:D:D:D

(I'll emigrate now, shall I?????)

Paul

posted: 2 Apr 2009 15:03

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Brian Lewis wrote:
I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. Do I assume you have one set of preferences? i.e. a global set, applicable to all files, rather than a preference set applicable to each individual box file? Even so, it will be a significant leap forward for new and existing users.
Hi Brian,

The preferences apply to the program settings rather than to the data, and will not be affected by which .box data file (track plan) you have loaded at the time.

But you are not restricted to only one preferences file. You can create multiple preferences files and change to whichever one you want at any time. Changing the preferences won't affect the loaded data.

So for example you could have a preferences file called "BgRailsOnlyGreenInches" (or whatever you want to call it) which causes the track plan templates to be displayed without timbering, on a green background, with the grid marked in inches.

And another preferences file called "NoCentreLinesRedRailsBlueFeet" (or whatever you want to call it) which causes the track plan templates to be displayed without track centre-lines, with the rails in red, on a blue background, with the grid marked in feet.

And another preferences file...

It would be easier to understand if you could stop thinking of Templot's .box data files as Windows documents. They contain only the template data, not instructions for how it should be displayed. Templot doesn't use the Windows document model. That's purely a software convention used by some programs, it's not part of the Windows operating system.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 2 Apr 2009 16:34

from:

Nigel Brown
 
 

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Hi Martin

One minor suggestion: in "Click save preferences" should it say "replace" instead of "update", as I assume that's what it's doing

cheers
Nigel

posted: 2 Apr 2009 18:17

from:

Ian White
 
Brighton - United Kingdom

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"update" is usually the word used on command buttons or other dialogs if the underlying function will be making changes to an existing file.


Nigel Brown wrote:
Hi Martin

One minor suggestion: in "Click save preferences" should it say "replace" instead of "update", as I assume that's what it's doing

cheers
Nigel


posted: 2 Apr 2009 20:30

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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Pete Brownlow wrote:
Martin,

Please write out 1000 times:

"I will not rise to the bait when Brian posts to the forum!"  :D

Presumably another entry for the next pug with shortcut keys Alt+B+L? :)

John


posted: 2 Apr 2009 20:32

from:

John Lewis
 
Croydon - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
So, when do we get irregular diamonds? :D:D:D:D

(I'll emigrate now, shall I?????)

To Namibia?

John

posted: 5 Apr 2009 08:47

from:

George Harris
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
Brian Lewis wrote:
I just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. Do I assume you have one set of preferences? i.e. a global set, applicable to all files, rather than a preference set applicable to each individual box file? Even so, it will be a significant leap forward for new and existing users.
Hi Brian,

The preferences apply to the program settings rather than to the data, and will not be affected by which .box data file (track plan) you have loaded at the time.

But you are not restricted to only one preferences file. You can create multiple preferences files and change to whichever one you want at any time. Changing the preferences won't affect the loaded data.

So for example you could have a preferences file called "BgRailsOnlyGreenInches" (or whatever you want to call it) which causes the track plan templates to be displayed without timbering, on a green background, with the grid marked in inches.

And another preferences file called "NoCentreLinesRedRailsBlueFeet" (or whatever you want to call it) which causes the track plan templates to be displayed without track centre-lines, with the rails in red, on a blue background, with the grid marked in feet.

And another preferences file...

It would be easier to understand if you could stop thinking of Templot's .box data files as Windows documents. They contain only the template data, not instructions for how it should be displayed. Templot doesn't use the Windows document model. That's purely a software convention used by some programs, it's not part of the Windows operating system.

regards,

Martin.

Ah, at last I think I get the idea. It is a bit like a CSS file for a web site where you can set up all sorts of different appearances for example and just change the CSS file that is being pointed to to change the whole site or just one page?

George.


posted: 5 Apr 2009 09:30

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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George Harris wrote:
Ah, at last I think I get the idea. It is a bit like a CSS file for a web site where you can set up all sorts of different appearances for example and just change the CSS file that is being pointed to to change the whole site or just one page?
Hi George,

Yes it's a similar idea, although Templot's program settings control far more than just the appearance of things. There are also controls for the way the program works which have nothing corresponding in CSS. Just to take a simple example among many -- you can have the mouse actions working as click-move-click only, or button-down drag only, or both.

Bear in mind also that the "saved program preferences" will add no new functionality -- you can do all those things now. Saving them as preferences simply reduces multiple clicks setting them up, to a single click to load a preferences file.

I'm still not convinced that's a good idea, and working on the code has done nothing to convince me. If anything the reverse. But I'm plodding on with it... :)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 5 Apr 2009 21:40

from:

John McCrea
 
United Kingdom

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Hi Martin

Maybe what I'm about to say has nothing to do with Saved Preferences but...

I keep my Templot layout storage sub-directory on a different harddrive (E: ) to that on which Templot itself is installed (C: ).  It always seems strange that, having navigated to and opened a .box file from my storage sub-directory on E:, the programs looks back to the TEMPLOT\SHAPE-FILES sub-directory on C: when I ask it to reload the associated .bgs file.

I know I'm probably being awkward but it would be convenient if it could remember...

Regards

John

posted: 6 Apr 2009 00:33

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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John McCrea wrote:
I keep my Templot layout storage sub-directory on a different hard drive (E: ) to that on which Templot itself is installed (C: ). It always seems strange that, having navigated to and opened a .box file from my storage sub-directory on E:, the programs looks back to the TEMPLOT SHAPE-FILES sub-directory on C: when I ask it to reload the associated .bgs file.
Hi John,

There isn't really such a thing as an "associated" .bgs file, the .box and .bgs files are entirely separate. Templot should remember where the .bgs file came from if you reload or add a second one.

I will add the file paths to the saved preferences, so that it goes initially to the same location in the following session.

It's your computer of course, but there is no need to keep Templot in a different location from its data. If you move or put a copy of TemplotZero.exe in the same place as the .box and .bgs files, you can run that copy instead and Templot will then look there for the files first time. It's likely to be a lot smaller than your accumulated .box files, so including it in any backup won't be significant.

The program file TemplotZero.exe can be duplicated as many times as you like and put anywhere you like -- just right-click on it to create a shortcut and drag the shortcut onto the desktop. For best results, also copy the TemplotZero.exe.manifest and relcode.txt files to the same location.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 7 Apr 2009 00:49

from:

John McCrea
 
United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
I will add the file paths to the saved preferences, so that it goes initially to the same location in the following session.
It's your computer of course, but there is no need to keep Templot in a different location from its data. If you move or put a copy of TemplotZero.exe in the same place as the .box and .bgs files, you can run that copy instead and Templot will then look there for the files first time. It's likely to be a lot smaller than your accumulated .box files, so including it in any backup won't be significant.

Thanks Martin - both most appreciated.

John

posted: 12 Apr 2009 15:11

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote:
Generator settings are a must to be saved.
Hi Paul (and anyone else),

A question for you. :)

If you have some background templates on the pad, and then reload a saved preferences file which contains generator settings, would you prefer:

a. The background templates are all automatically rebuilt with the new generator settings, or

b. The background templates are left as-is until you choose to rebuild them, or some of them, or

c. As b, and a reminder message appears that they may not match the new generator settings unless or until you rebuild them?

Quite frankly, I think including the generator settings in the saved preferences is crazy, but I'm doing it because you and others asked for it. By default, the saved preferences won't normally include them.

Are you sure that you didn't mean to ask instead for the settings at pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail ... to be saved? :)  (They will be.)

regards,

Martin.

posted: 12 Apr 2009 18:34

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Hi Martin
a. The background templates are all automatically rebuilt with the new generator settings
Given a choice - this is what I'd prefer. (But see below...)

Are you sure that you didn't mean to ask instead for the settings at pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail ...  to be saved? :) (They will be.)
I didn't mean that because I hadn't seen the menu item there! That would actually do me nicely if that was included in the preferences file.

Next question - what's the difference between changing the generator settings and using the above menu option?

Cheers

Paul Boyd

posted: 13 Apr 2009 09:51

from:

Martin Wynne
 
West Of The Severn - United Kingdom

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Paul Boyd wrote
Next question - what's the difference between changing the generator settings and using the above menu option?
Hi Paul,

The generator is the core engine in Templot which creates template drawing data in memory, from the template specification in the .box file.

So for example data in the .box file looks like:

scale=a
gauge=b
V-crossing angle=c
main road curving radius=d
sleeper length=e
...


And after the generator has done its stuff, data in memory looks like:

timber T14 leading edge:
line from corner at (x1,y1) to corner at (x2,y2)

wing rail joint mark:
line from end at (x3,y3) to end at (x4,y4)

...


Once the drawing data is in memory, it can be used to create drawings of the template in several formats:

on the pad window as the control template
on the pad window as a background template
on the storage box window
on the sketchboard*
sent to the printer
exported in DXF format
exported in PDF format*
created as a .bmp image file*
etc.

( * not yet available)

If you change the generator settings, you are controlling what data elements are created in memory. If something is not in memory it cannot be output in any format, so the result affects all of the output formats listed above.

If instead you change the settings at pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail ... menu item, you are changing only the way the second format in the list above is displayed. Items in memory are simply ignored if they have been deselected in that dialog. But they can still appear in other output formats.

Of course, some data can be switched off in the original template specification. For example, if "no timbering" is selected for a given template, the timbering for it won't even get as far as being generated in memory. Those settings are specific to each template, whereas the controls above apply to all templates.

The generator settings are intended to be used mainly as short-term changes to the control template, as an aid to using the Templot program. Changes made to the generator settings are immediately reflected in the control template, so typically you switch generator settings off and on as you work. For example, you might be aligning something by eye which is being obscured by the timber infill on the control template. So you would switch the infill off in the generator while you make the adjustment, and then switch it back on again.

If you have an older computer with a low graphics spec, you can also use the generator settings to speed things up. For example you could choose to have rails represented by the gauge-faces only, and timbers by the centre-lines only, while you are doing design work. This significantly reduces the amount of calculation and drawing work which the computer has to do, and it runs much faster as a result. Then when you are ready to print the template you turn these features back on in the generator, rebuild the templates using the new settings, and print them out.

When templates are reloaded from a .box file and first appear on the screen with say, no track centre-lines showing, it's not always immediately obvious why not. It could be because:

The template specs don't include them (deselected in the geometry menu);
or
it does include them but they are not being generated (switched off in the generator menu);
or
they are being generated but not displayed for screen templates (deselected in the pad menu).

The first of the above is controlled by the .box file. The other two could both now be in the saved preferences file, which is why I think it could lead to a lot of confusion if you don't remember which settings you were using the last time you used Templot. Just one set of display options makes more sense when reloading the saved preferences, so the generator settings will not be included in them by default.

regards,

Martin.

posted: 13 Apr 2009 11:13

from:

Paul Boyd
 
Loughborough - United Kingdom

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Martin Wynne wrote:
If you change the generator settings, you are controlling what data elements are created in memory. If something is not in memory it cannot be output in any format, so the result affects all of the output formats listed above.

If instead you change the settings at pad > pad background options > pad background templates detail ... menu item, you are changing only the way the second format in the list above is displayed. Items in memory are simply ignored if they have been deselected in that dialog. But they can still appear in other output formats.

Hi Martin

Your explanation above makes sense, and now I understand why you think saving generator settings is daft. Having all the items there but not visible has to be much better than not having them there at all. I withdraw my request to save generator settings!

Cheers

Paul Boyd



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